Shulk custom moveset discussion 2.0

[Berserker.]

Now we have the custom sets out of the way, we can focus on discussing Shulk's customs without any need for rushing. So... what custom do you guys want to discuss?

 

[Piford]

I'd think Advancing Air Slash is probably worth a full discussion, as it's on like half of our sets.

 

[Goesasu]

I'd think Advancing Air Slash is probably worth a full discussion, as it's on like half of our sets.

I can say 3 thing about it:

1.-I really like that thanks to its horizontal recovery it makes a lot easier for shield shulk to return to stage( very important for Dshield. Actually, in Dshield i can get to 180%-200% against people or even lvl 50 amiibos as no big deal, due to the 5 seconds cooldown of Darts.

2.- It makes optimal to recover early to take advantage of the horizontal recovery improvement. But you can still recover low (but not very low) thanks to the first hit of AAS, just dont do the second hit.

3.-I just dont like the 45% degree knockback angle it has, its very hard to kill with it unless you are near the edge facing the blast zone and connects both hits.

This sums it up for me. If someone wants to add something please do.

After this I would like to discuss monado arts. This is the true game changing special for shulk and IMO needs more testing. Honestly I cant see power vision or a AAS being "just what shulk needed to win EVO", they are both very very good, but not game changing to the point to make him god tier, just a lot better.

Regular arts have being used for 5 months now and so far havent been able to accomplish anything stunning.If anything Darts or Harts are what it takes for shulk to shine, so we should discuss the benefit and drawbacks of those.

 

[Berserker.]

We've discussed Hyper Arts thoroughly before we decided to tackle the custom sets. You want to talk about Hyper arts again?

 

[Goesasu]

We've discussed Hyper Arts thoroughly before we decided to tackle the custom sets. You want to talk about Hyper arts again?

Well we have discussed about everything before making the sets of course, but if any discussion is to be made IMO its about monado arts customs, Darts and Harts both. If shulk wants to shine they are what we should focus on.

To me Harts have 2 drawbacks than cant be overcomed:

1.- They only last 6 seconds. That is a clock that is very easy for the opponent to exploit.
Hsmash or Hbuster force shulk to be agressive, you have to attack in that short period of time to justify the art, that makes you very predictable.

Going for Hsmash or Hbuster? Then i ll just escape, roll, jump etc... avoiding all contacts for just 6 seconds.
Also if you leave an opening they will take advantage of it and you will be severely punished.

Going for Hshield? Same as above but its even easier due to the decrease on shulks mobility so he cant aproach.

Hjump is very very good for recovering and thats it.

Hspeed its awesome,but the attack decrease is also very very real too.

This is a drawback that Darts dont have, actually they are quite the opposite. You have 20 whole seconds to do whatever you want with that one art that you chose. You are not forced to do anything, Dsmash,Dbuster or Dspeed? Shulk can take all the time he wants, no need to attack if you dont see a opening. Dshield? The opponent has to attack you, 20 secs its a lot of time to be stalling, projectiles are a pain though. Djump? You can stall all you want, also could work against zoners but Dspeed already covers that so i wouldnt recommend it.


2.- The buffs are nice compared to regular monado arts (but not much nicer compared to Darts btw), but the debuffs are also very very real too.

While in Hspeed your attack damage is very low, while in Hbuster you take a lot of damage too, Hsmash makes you lighter that jigglypuff, Hshield makes you slower than, well everything, so you cant approach. Hjump its ok though.

Darts also have buffs compared to regular arts and they are quite real too ( I would love some numbers here), while keeping the same debuffs!. Dbuster backthrow and jab does 19% damage, pretty nice is you ask me, for no extra damage taken. Dsmash truly kills around 80% or earlier unlike regular, sadly it should only be used on the last stock because you cant change it and they will punish you after respawning. Dspeed is even faster so it allows more followups, even backthrow - run- backslash is possible arround 20% till 80% but character dependant, i have done it many many times. Dshield truly lets you survive to 180% or 200% if used properly with the 5 seconds cooldown of Darts., pair it with ASS and you wont be killed by anything but a smash attack. This is very important, when you reach 100% or 120% just spam Dshield till you die. Djump...well i dont use it but you jump higher.

This are my insides about them. Waiting comments.

 

[Berserker.]

Well we have discussed about everything before making the sets of course, but if any discussion is to be made IMO its about monado arts customs, Darts and Harts both. If shulk wants to shine they are what we should focus on.

To me Harts have 2 drawbacks than cant be overcomed

It's as if your using hyper arts like it's default arts. If that was your idea then you're doing it wrong.

It's all about precise usage and being good with vanilla Shulk. Each hyper art should be used at a certain moment. For speed, you can use it ANY time except for recovering low. For jump, you'd reserve it for off-stage purposes/recovering. For buster and smash, you'd use it once you're quite close to your opponent. It's a lot safer to activate buster or smash if you managed to throw them off or position them above you. Shield, you can also use this at any time unless you're off-stage.

What makes hyper arts really good and viable is Hyper Smash ALONE. The KO range for hyper smash is ridiculous.

Should also note, grabs are amazing with hyper arts. Boost pivot grab is insane in hyper speed. Shulk's b-throw deals 20% damage in HBuster. Also, his d-throw and b-throw become insane KO throws in hyper smash

These are just things that I've picked up from using Hyper Arts so yeah, imo

 

[Goesasu]

It's as if your using hyper arts like it's default arts. If that was your idea then you're doing it wrong.

It's all about precise usage and being good with vanilla Shulk. Each hyper art should be used at a certain moment. For speed, you can use it ANY time except for recovering low. For jump, you'd reserve it for off-stage purposes/recovering. For buster and smash, you'd use it once you're quite close to your opponent. It's a lot safer to activate buster or smash if you managed to throw them off or position them above you. Shield, you can also use this at any time unless you're off-stage.

What makes hyper arts really good and viable is Hyper Smash ALONE. The KO range for hyper smash is ridiculous.

Should also note, grabs are amazing with hyper arts. Boost pivot grab is insane in hyper speed. Shulk's b-throw deals 20% damage in HBuster. Also, his d-throw and b-throw become insane KO throws in hyper smash

These are just things that I've picked up from using Hyper Arts so yeah, imo

HSmash seems the only one that stand out to me, as long as you land the hit before the opponent does.
Its risk vs reward, just unsure if the tradeoff is justified. The rest of the Harts seems unappealing to me, maybe hbuster as long as you activate it and hit enough with it before the opponent does the same to you. Vanilla shulks becomes your true main i guess.

"Precise usage" are the exact words. I cant help but to feel that Harts turns Shulk into ganon, reading becomes more important to be able to benefit of Hbuster and Hsmash while trying to overocome their inherent drawbacks. Certainly a playstyle riskier than the others.

To me Darts are an upgrade of regular arts, as long as you commit to them. Being unable to change art is the drawback, but if you commit to the art you chose then there is no drawback. There shoulnt be a reason to regret choosing Dspeed ever; neither Dbuster as long as the opponent isnt in like 60% or more already; or Dshield as long as you are on 100% or more; and Dsmash if it is the last stock. I dont like Djump but you can only regret about the damage taken increase.

Both custom appeals to different playstyles and both seems legit.

 

[Berserker.]

To me Darts are an upgrade of regular arts, as long as you commit to them. Being unable to change art is the drawback, but if you commit to the art you chose then there is no drawback. There shoulnt be a reason to regret choosing Dspeed ever; neither Dbuster as long as the opponent isnt in like 60% or more already; or Dshield as long as you are on 100% or more; and Dsmash if it is the last stock. I dont like Djump but you can only regret about the damage taken increase.

Both custom appeals to different playstyles and both seems legit.

Being unable to switch arts is a bad thing already no matter how much you try to twist it.

DShield is horrible. If you get knocked off stage, gg. I can see the appeal for Decisive arts. It's a LOT simpler to use and it's technically a straight upgrade from default arts. The main problem still is the lack of versatility and the loss of techs that we're currently implementing into Shulk's metagame. I know there's been talk of Shulk's versatility being a fluke in the Character Competitive Impressions thread but that's all a big huge nope.

I agree that every art basically plays similarly. You're always at mid-range with Shulk. It's just the methods of playing at mid-range which are radically different. You're still missing out on lacking an emergency recovery (jump art) in case you need it. What if you need shield to survive longer, but you can't even switch out from shield?

Literally, it's only DSpeed that attracts people to using Decisive arts since it can do "anything" and by that I meant, it doesn't excel at damaging, recovering, or KO'ing but it's still capable of doing the following and it requires low/borderline no risk. I'd say DBuster is also another reason since your attacks are more notably safer on shield but you can still feel the risk there (you still take +13% more damage). If you're committed to both of those arts then DArts is the custom for you

Those arts alone are the reason why Decisive arts is definitely viable but it's a blatant mistake to think that DArts is actually a straight upgrade from regular arts even with the said mentality.

 

[Goesasu]

Being unable to switch arts is a bad thing already no matter how much you try to twist it.

DShield is horrible. If you get knocked off stage, gg. I can see the appeal for Decisive arts. It's a LOT simpler to use and it's technically a straight upgrade from default arts. The main problem still is the lack of versatility and the loss of techs that we're currently implementing into Shulk's metagame. I know there's been talk of Shulk's versatility being a fluke in the Character Competitive Impressions thread but that's all a big huge nope.

I agree that every art basically plays similarly. You're always at mid-range with Shulk. It's just the methods of playing at mid-range which are radically different. You're still missing out on lacking an emergency recovery (jump art) in case you need it. What if you need shield to survive longer, but you can't even switch out from shield?

Literally, it's only DSpeed that attracts people to using Decisive arts since it can do "anything" and by that I meant, it doesn't excel at damaging, recovering, or KO'ing but it's still capable of doing the following and it requires low/borderline no risk. I'd say DBuster is also another reason since your attacks are more notably safer on shield but you can still feel the risk there (you still take +13% more damage). If you're committed to both of those arts then DArts is the custom for you

Those arts alone are the reason why Decisive arts is definitely viable but it's a blatant mistake to think that DArts is actually a straight upgrade from regular arts even with the said mentality.

All you said is almost true, Dspeed and Dbuster are the main reason to use Darts, and Dsmash only is useful on the last stock. But you are wrong about Dshield, its amazing thanks to AAS.

Dshield, unlike regular shield, makes you really hard to knockoff the stage and even when that happens thanks to AAS horizontal recovery you can come back safely, at 180% or even 200%. I can honestly say that if you play well you shouldnt be dying before 160% and you shouldnt die to anything but an smash attack. Once you reach 100% of damage put on Dshield, and once it goes off just avoid contact and space well for just 5 seconds (and 1.5 sec for activation) and reactivate Dshield, and repeat until you die.

I wish i could record a video with something better than a cellphone camera just to show you guys how long you can prolong a stock just by playing like this. If i cant find any better, this sunday I ll record some matches against a very good player and friend of mine just to show this.

As long as you commit to the art you chose, Darts can really pay off.

 

[Splash Damage]

IMO, all arts are certainly good no matter how you stretch it, but for different reasons and with different drawbacks of varying intensity.
Vanilla arts
Pros:
- Gives Shulk equivalent or greater exchange of stats boosted
- Arts can be cancelled and changed at will, even during hitstun, giving him endless versatility and ability to adapt to any skilled opponent's strategy/percentage. At a high percent on your last stock? Pop on shield. If you're knocked off before it has time to run out, cancel and pop on Jump, almost guaranteed to make it back, especially with AAS.
- Makes Shulk a well-rounded character with excellent versatility in most MUs, a rarity in Sm4sh.
Cons:
- The Drawbacks are almost equal to the boosts, making a specific when-to and when-not-to-use type dealio with the modes.
Vanilla is technically the best option. Good for all MUs, it has all the tools Shulk needed to be a higher tier charcter that could reward you for all your time in the lab. The arts themselves have already been examined and discussed in full, not much more to dsay about those specifically here. They give him plenty of mixup options and much better usefulness in more MUs he may have struggled with without them.

Decisive
Pros:
- Arts last longer, enabling you to get a bit more of a boost off of the Buster and Smash arts(Greater chance to get more damage off or a strong kill move)
- Arts are noticeably stronger, though the drawbacks are the same intensity, making the arts sometimes more 'worth it' to use.
Cons:
- Arts cannot be cancelled, ruining Shulk's ability to adapt and rendering most of his arts almost useless(DShield cannot be used safely without AAS, especially against any character with a kill throw (aka all of them), DSpeed lasts too long and you'll quickly find that you're no longer able to combo them reliably to any higher percents, and DJump is hilariously useless no matter what without the ability to quickly tap it on for an edgeguard or recovery.)
- The lengthened art time can be a blessing or a curse, due to (As mentioned above) some arts just aren't good unless just in a spur-of-the-moment combo or edgeguard, which seriously hurts most of his arts.
- The arts take longer to activate, making Monado-Art-Cancels less practical and more obvious, and similarly making B-reverses to assist in edgeguards less practical as well.
- However, in theorycraft, this can be useful. Late in a set when youy're opponent thinks they know your antics, flip over to Smash mode, wait about a second, then when they attempt to attack you preemptively in response, all you need to do is pop a different art and punish accordingly.
In my opinion, the least useful option in serious, competitive play. Like I said, all the arts are good, and this one is certainly. Having it could turn a low-tier into a high-tier I'm certain. However, the other two options are just much more useful in tournament play. In tournament, mixups are a guaranteed and indisputable certainty and necessity, and the ability to deal with these as best you can is even more important. According to @ Goesasu , DBuster is one of the best parts of Decisive. However, any opponent worth their salt who has done their research, as many have done with the rise of customs, will know this.
Consider this:
You're playing in tournament against a pretty respectable Yoshi. Over the course of the first half minute or so of the match, you feel out their style and that they might be pretty susceptible to Buster combos and strings, and that you could likely get some noticeable damage on them if you use Buster. Then, you activate it, but the moment that happens, they do something out of the ordinary. Maybe they never grabbed you in Neutral before, maybe they never threw any eggs to rack up damage, maybe they never spotdodged, but regardless of how, they drastically change their playstyle, or even just do one thing different, revealing that their previous approach to The Neutral was merely a feint. Yoshi, being extremely capable of racking up absurd damage with his combos, eggs, and especially his D-air, will be in a very good advantage at this moment.
So, what can you do?
Buster/Hyper Buster:You DI as best you can away from the onslaught and quickly deactivate the art, knowing that you can cancel and change even in hitstun. You then have a good amount of options open to you, you may activate Speed/HSpeed in an attempt to regain offensive momentum and break their zone, you may activate Shield/HShield to minimize damage and make the gap less of a struggle to surmount, or even very briefly pop Jump/HJump if Stage Control is that much of a priority to you(Which, against Yoshi, it really is).
Decisive Buster:You DI as much as you can away from the onslaught, taking a sizable amount of damage. You attempt to
strike back with Nairs, Fairs, and maybe a grab, but they are all much too slow for Yoshi's quick attacks, especially his Grab and Frame-3 Nair. No ability to adapt to the quick momentum change, you continue to take humongous damage from the Yoshi who is able to spotdodge and roll around any attempted retaliation, or Nair before you can get more than two hits in. By the time the art cancels on its own, you're already far past death percent and nothing but lunch to the Yoshi's plentiful kill moves. Popping DShield would only make you more of a target to his Fair offstage or Down-B Onstage, AAS or not.
Like I said, It's still very good, but simply not very useful in competitive against any player worth their salt and certainly not when compared to the default and Hyper.
Speaking of...

Hyper
Pros:
- Arts are miles stronger, making only a few hits with HBuster deal upwards of 40%/giving him a 19% jab combo and throw, making him take absolutely no vertical knockback from a Ganon Up Tilt at 0% with HShield, able to perform some disgusting mixups with HSpeed, and HSmash can even(I have tested this), when paired with Power Counter like it always will be, can kill Ike at 45% off of a counter to Ike's first jab. I n t h e c e n t e r o f t h e s t a g e.
- Arts don't last as long, making the intense drawbacks(foreshadowing) not as apparent if you know what you're doing in The Neutral stage position, and even obsolete if you're slick enough to avoid getting hit/letting the drawbacks be exploited before they run out.
- Makes Shulk himself far more of a commanding, powerful, and 'scary' force both offstage, on, in Neutral, or even when you're in a bad position.
Cons:
- Drawbacks are intense, exemplifying and exploiting Shulk's risk-reward utility in the previous. One medium/hard read and your stock is gone.
- Arts last very briefly(~6 seconds?), forcing you to be a bit obvious to get your proper payoff that you want, which is a bad thing for the overall flow of the custom. Of course, it be used to your advantage in longer sets. For only a second, activate smash/buster/one of the risky arts, then when they attempt an approach option in response, shield/spotdodge/roll away and change your art to another that works better to punish.
- You are forced to be much more careful and calculated.
My preferred Monado Art. In the current meta, it is outshined by Vanilla due to Vanilla being a less intense risk-reward, and there being little Shulks currently and subsequently little overall ability to perform hard enough reads to get the payoff you'd want. However, with ZeRo dipping his feet in the character and more Shulks on the rise, I'm almost certain this one will become the preferred option. I don't think it's objectively better than Vanilla, even if we had more Shulks to use it, but with proper spacing, conditioning, and reads, it can certainly tie. Other than that, it's essentially the same as vanilla, with the ability to adapt quickly and punish poor options and even good ones, though it has, as i've mentioned, much more of an ability to make your opponent fear your pressure and respect your options.

1>3>2

Edit:Holy lord that was an enormous wall of text. Did I really just write that whole thing?

Is this what it's like to frequent Smashboards?

 

[Berserker.]

- Arts don't last as long, making the intense drawbacks(foreshadowing) not as apparent if you know what you're doing in The Neutral stage position, and even obsolete if you're slick enough to avoid getting hit/letting the drawbacks be exploited before they run out.

This is another point I forgot to mention. There isn't much time to exploit the intense disadvantages

Edit:Holy lord that was an enormous wall of text. Did I really just write that whole thing?

Is this what it's like to frequent Smashboards?

Welcome to 24/7 Smashboards life style bro

 

[Goesasu]

This is another point I forgot to mention. There isn't much time to exploit the intense disadvantages

Welcome to 24/7 Smashboards life style bro

If there isnt much time to exploit the intense disadvantages that means that there is also less time to exploit the intense advantages. Hshulk is vanilla shulk most of the time with the chance to exploit an opening for Hsmash (and maybe Hbuster).

Dshulk gameplay is Dbuster first to rack up damage dealing 80% in as low as 6 hits (backthrow and jab already does 19%),Dspeed to get the kill thanks to extra mobility and Dshield after that to survive till 180%-200%, thanks to AAS and the 5 sec arts cooldown of Darts that allows you to stay in Dshield till you die,no kidding. Against characters that can combo the hell out of you at low% (like sheik) you can always forget Dbuster and just stay in Dspeed most of the time thanks to the 5 sec arts cooldown of Darts. This is why there is no reson to regret the art chosen and being unable to cancel it becomes irrelevant.

The second option seems a lot more appealing to me but we all have different gameplay styles and there is merit in both custom arts.

 

[Berserker.]

If there isnt much time to exploit the intense disadvantages that means that there is also less time to exploit the intense advantages. Hshulk is vanilla shulk most of the time with the chance to exploit an opening for Hsmash (and maybe Hbuster).

It really depends on where you are at the certain time or what the scenario is. If you use it when you're at an advantageous position, you're (almost always) guaranteed to have all the time to take advantage of Hyper art's buffs but even then, for as long as you're at mid-range with hyper arts.

It's really difficult to explain it in theory but in practice, it works really well. I've seen twitch footage (Thanks @ kj22 :D) of Hyper arts in action. I've also tried it in friendlies. It works if you're at a certain range.

HSpeed works 100% of the time though so that's an exception

 

[Goesasu]

It really depends on where you are at the certain time or what the scenario is. If you use it when you're at an advantageous position, you're (almost always) guaranteed to have all the time to take advantage of Hyper art's buffs but even then, for as long as you're at mid-range with hyper arts.

It's really difficult to explain it in theory but in practice, it works really well. I've seen twitch footage (Thanks @ kj22 :D) of Hyper arts in action. I've also tried it in friendlies. It works if you're at a certain range.

HSpeed works 100% of the time though so that's an exception

Certainly there are scenarios where you can take full advantage but its dependant to circinstances and opponents skill level.

My grip with Hspeed its the extreme damage reduction, I could swear that backthrow and complete jab combo does like 6%. Usually damage reduction of speed art doesnt matter that much, but with hspeed that reduction becomes a lot more obvious.

 

[Berserker.]

Certainly there are scenarios where you can take full advantage but its dependant to circinstances and opponents skill level.

My grip with Hspeed its the extreme damage reduction, I could swear that backthrow and complete jab combo does like 6%. Usually damage reduction of speed art doesnt matter that much, but with hspeed that reduction becomes a lot more obvious.

You'd use hyper speed to control the flow of the match instead of dealing damage

 

[Goesasu]

You'd use hyper speed to control the flow of the match instead of dealing damage

I agree. Seems useful to come back from disadvantage to neutral and hopefully advantage.
All Harts seems to work like that, 6 seconds to make the art count.

 

[kj22]

You'd use hyper speed to control the flow of the match instead of dealing damage

Also can be used to kill, knockback is the same

 

[Goesasu]

Also can be used to kill, knockback is the same

It is not. Damage output is an important part of the knockback formula.

Killing in speed or Dspeed is a just a little harder than in vanilla shulk, but killing in Hspeed is really hard.

 

[kj22]

It is not. Damage output is an important part of the knockback formula.

Killing in speed or Dspeed is a just a little harder than in vanilla shulk, but killing in Hspeed is really hard.

I thought speed didn't affect knockback? And isn't knockback calculated before the damage is applied?

 

[Goesasu]

I thought speed didn't affect knockback? And isn't knockback calculated before the damage is applied?

Speed doesnt affect knockback per se, it lowers your damage output, but that as a result lowers the knockback dealt. Damage is part of the knockback formula and it is calculated after the damage is applied.

 

[kj22]

Oh I see. hmm know anything about how counter knockback is determined?

 

[erico9001]

Also can be used to kill, knockback is the same

It is not. Damage output is an important part of the knockback formula.

Killing in speed or Dspeed is a just a little harder than in vanilla shulk, but killing in Hspeed is really hard.

Kill percents will be lowered. The exact amount can be found by finding the difference between the damage dealt by the move while in Vanilla and while in Hyper Speed, and subtracting that difference from Vanilla's kill percent for the move. The reason for this is in the knockback formula, the damage used is the damage the opponent has AFTER the move hits. You can do similar calculations for the opponents' kill percents on you while you are in Jump or Buster (and also the calculation can be done for your own kill percents while in Shield). Or you can use it to compare the kill percents of Speed and Hyper Speed. Whatever you want (except for Smash stuff or Shield taking damage)

The new kill percents will not be lowered very much, so Hyper Speed can still kill. Depending on the move used, you might need the opponent to have like ~4% more damage than if you were to kill them with normal Speed.

 

[kj22]

Kill percents will be lowered. The exact amount can be found by finding the difference between the damage dealt by the move while in Vanilla and while in Hyper Speed, and subtracting that difference from Vanilla's kill percent for the move. The reason for this is in the knockback formula, the damage used is the damage the opponent has AFTER the move hits. You can do similar calculations for the opponents' kill percents on you while you are in Jump or Buster (and also the calculation can be done for your own kill percents while in Shield). Or you can use it to compare the kill percents of Speed and Hyper Speed. Whatever you want (except for Smash stuff or Shield taking damage)

The new kill percents will not be lowered very much, so Hyper Speed can still kill. Depending on the move used, you might need the opponent to have like ~4% more damage than if you were to kill them with normal Speed.

So the decrease in ko percent is negligible?

 

[Goesasu]

So the decrease in ko percent is negligible?

It really depends, all knockback reduction matters because it can be the difference between win and defeat.

He said that the difference between killing in hspeed and regular speed is 4% (i havent tested it), but you also have to compare it between vanilla and hspeed. In the later case i can assure you that the numbers wont be that stretched.

 

[Splash Damage]

Dshulk gameplay is Dbuster first to rack up damage dealing 80% in as low as 6 hits (backthrow and jab already does 19%),Dspeed to get the kill thanks to extra mobility and Dshield after that to survive till 180%-200%, thanks to AAS and the 5 sec arts cooldown of Darts that allows you to stay in Dshield till you die,no kidding. Against characters that can combo the hell out of you at low% (like sheik) you can always forget Dbuster and just stay in Dspeed most of the time thanks to the 5 sec arts cooldown of Darts. This is why there is no reson to regret the art chosen and being unable to cancel it becomes irrelevant.

I've already said why i think the lack of cancellability is a huge detriment, but allow me to reiterate: It's not as simple as not choosing Buster or only choosing Buster/Speed/Shield when it's safe. Monado Arts are a matter of adapting to a fight, not being better in a situation you think will happen.
Any opponent worth their weight will bait out a poor art choice in any way neccesary no matter how bad of a spot they're put in(Though it takes very little to bait an art choice and often Shulks just pick any art anyway), then punish even a slightly bad Art choice, and in Decisive he loses the ability to save himself from himself by stopping his selected path and venturing down a different one.That is the reason to regret the art being chosen. The disadvantage of not being able to swap arts at will is not a matter of the art's effectiveness, but the weakness it gives you against any tournament level player.
My full thoughts on this are above, but overall I just think the inability to change arts is not and will never be irrelevant.

My grip with Hspeed its the extreme damage reduction, I could swear that backthrow and complete jab combo does like 6%. Usually damage reduction of speed art doesnt matter that much, but with hspeed that reduction becomes a lot more obvious.

I certainly agree here. Can't use it for low dasmage combos anymore, have to use it to reset the neutral in bad situations instead. 5-6% off a Nair just won't do it.

Also can be used to kill, knockback is the same

It really depends, all knockback reduction matters because it can be the difference between win and defeat.

He said that the difference between killing in hspeed and regular speed is 4% (i havent tested it), but you also have to compare it between vanilla and hspeed. In the later case i can assure you that the numbers wont be that stretched.

...And I suppose it can also be used to mix up the stage control and get a kill in? Didn't know this, guess I have more testing to do.

 

[erico9001]

It really depends, all knockback reduction matters because it can be the difference between win and defeat.

He said that the difference between killing in hspeed and regular speed is 4% (i havent tested it), but you also have to compare it between vanilla and hspeed. In the later case i can assure you that the numbers wont be that stretched.

It all depends on how much damage the move does too. 4% is really just an estimate I made up on the spot. Here are some real comparisons:
F-tilt (blade)
Speed: 10.4% damage
H. Speed: 8.19% damage

Kill percent lowered by 2.21%

F-Smash
Speed: 14.8% damage
H. Speed: 11.655% damage

Kill percent lowered by 3.145%

So the decrease in ko percent is negligible?

I would say so. Although, it is possible for you to need to get one more hit to be able to kill while in hyper speed.

 

[Masonomace]

I'd think Advancing Air Slash is probably worth a full discussion, as it's on like half of our sets.

That moment when we planned to discuss AAS but then jump straight to discussing Custom Arts instead? Owell I still dig it.

Advancing Air Slash holds a lot of merit to be on a good amount of the custom sets. It's a safer Air Slash that challenges edge-guarding, recovers by snapping to the ledge during anytime the 2nd slash is advancing, & is more consistent & rewarding for punishing a mistake OoS. Not only does it have slightly better success connecting both hits but you can use it at a much earlier percentage by drifting away after the 1st or 2nd slash in order to avoid any returning punishment damage (unlike AS or MAS). Like @ erico9001 has mentioned about AAS, you can attempt stage-spiking with just the 1st slash because of it's 45° knockback angle therefore granting earlier KOs when they're not in mind of the run-off or walk-off turn-around AAS from the ledge especially for ledge-trumping with it. However, it's not as successful hitting ledge-hangers with AAS on the ground because they won't be launched high enough for even the 2nd slash to connect. On top of that, it's relatively simple to avoid AAS's 2nd slash when the opponent holds away as they're hit by the 1st slash thus altering their knockback angle for their better outcome. Even so, we can drift away just in case they decide to tech the floor since they're lower to the ground (or if they input an aerial or airdodge before touching the floor).

There's more to discussing AS AAS or MAS alone rather than bringing up the Monado Arts, but the Arts surely do augment the performances for more than several occasions.

Oh & practicing where & when you snap the ledge while facing away or looking towards is vital. We can still grab the ledge facing away as long as you're not ridiculously high over the ledge's height going backward (nobody should be doing this).

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I got a tip from outside Smashboards that 3112 Shulk might be preferred as a set. Currenlty you guys have 3122 Shulk but mostly seem to prefer default Air Slash on Shulk. Is there a particular reason up-2 is included on that set and seems to always be paired with Dashing Vision? I am extremely hesitant to overturn a vigorous and democratic eight page discussion for a reason like that, but I would like to understand the reasoning you guys used so it can be fixed if it wasn't ideal or I can back you up effectively on that decision if it was.

 

[erico9001]

I got a tip from outside Smashboards that 3112 Shulk might be preferred as a set. Currenlty you guys have 3122 Shulk but mostly seem to prefer default Air Slash on Shulk. Is there a particular reason up-2 is included on that set and seems to always be paired with Dashing Vision? I am extremely hesitant to overturn a vigorous and democratic eight page discussion for a reason like that, but I would like to understand the reasoning you guys used so it can be fixed if it wasn't ideal or I can back you up effectively on that decision if it was.

The reason that Advancing Air Slash (AAS) is paired with dash vision is that the sets are supposed to be zone breakers. AAS has an incredible horizontal reach – a distance almost half of FD. If delayed well, the second hit can even hit some grounded opponents like Link. However, that's not the point. Think of Link jumping before he throws his boomerang or charges his arrow. Think of how mega man jumps as he uses his pellets. Oh, and of course there is Villager. Zoners often jump, and AAS is excellent at taking advantage of that.

Furthermore, the common art used for zone breaking, monado jump, makes regular air slash whiff against certain characters. Of interest to this zone breaking set are Mega Man, Link, and Robin. AAS does not whiff in such a way.

Also, you'll see that if you look at all 10 sets, half of them have AAS. AAS is much greater than any of us imagined before we started looking into customs.
-Contrary to what intuition might tell you, recovery is generally improved with AAS. Recovery is incredibly better while in Monado Shield, better for Buster/Smash/Vanilla, negligibly worse for Speed, and worse for Jump.
-The move has vastly improved safety due to the move not decreasing horizontal movement speeds after its use.
-Slight bit more damage (but that's not very important)
-Snaps to ledge while advancing on the second slash, improving safety while recovering
-Actually has the ability to stage spike, and due to it being a set knockback, it would actually be possible to stage spike some opponents while they are at 0% damage
-This is very small (important to me though as I do lots of Shulk dittos), but while in arts other than Jump, AAS actually works on a Shulk that is in Monado Shield (other two don't)
-Without Monado Jump, AAS still works on Jigglypuff

I can't remember if there are any other advantages, but umm yeah, I hope this answer works?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Thank you; that was an excellent and detailed explanation. We will very likely stick with the list you guys developed as things stand; I just wanted to fully understand the situation.

 

[Splash Damage]

Thank you; that was an excellent and detailed explanation. We will very likely stick with the list you guys developed as things stand; I just wanted to fully understand the situation.

We're more than happy to have contributed as much as we did:]

 

[Goesasu]

Not that it really matters but 2123 shouldnt have been put under optional. Its already better than the critical set 2113 for all the reasons we have agree on. Certainly better than the two niche sets ( they are niche for a reason ) so i would have swaped it with one of those niche.

Its not that important because the order wont matter at evo and in smaller events each one can transfer their own set from a 3ds if that it is allowed. if its not allowed then the set will already be in the wiiu.

But still a mistake IMO.

 

[Piford]

Not that it really matters but 2123 shouldnt have been put under optional. Its already better than the critical set 2113 for all the reasons we have agree on. Certainly better than the two niche sets ( they are niche for a reason ) so i would have swaped it with one of those niche.

Its not that important because the order wont matter at evo and in smaller events each one can transfer their own set from a 3ds if that it is allowed. if its not allowed then the set will already be in the wiiu.

But still a mistake IMO.

The whole point of Niche is that a lot of players will want to use those sets sometimes. Like more players are going to want 1122 than want 2123, but they just aren't going to use them for every matchup.

 

[Berserker.]

Alright, we'll discuss air slash customs soon. I really feel like we've messed around with the arts too much


OH, 3 days until the custom presets are like... totally final. You guys have until March 27 to ask for some changes. If you have any objections, whatsoever. Go ahead and post NOW. If your planning to go to EVO and you have some opinions about what you want, post them now. I don't want people PM'ing me and telling me (,or Amazing Ampharos ,or John12346) to go **** myself for not putting their preferred custom set in the list.

 

[Scarhi]

I don't have much experience with customs but wouldn't it be useful to have a niche/optional set with both Decisive Arts and Dash Vision in order to deal with zoning characters? (2XX2) Against these characters, we'd mostly want to be in Monado Speed (and Jump sometimes), so Decisive Arts make sense.
As for Dash Vision, it seems like it is the best counter against zoners, but on the other hand, since we're always in Monado Speed with Decisive Arts, we might spend most of our time inside their zone anyway so maybe Dash Vision isn't really needed and we can just resort to a 2XX3 set. I'm not too sure xD Any opinions?

 

[Piford]

I don't have much experience with customs but wouldn't it be useful to have a niche/optional set with both Decisive Arts and Dash Vision in order to deal with zoning characters? (2XX2) Against these characters, we'd mostly want to be in Monado Speed (and Jump sometimes), so Decisive Arts make sense.
As for Dash Vision, it seems like it is the best counter against zoners, but on the other hand, since we're always in Monado Speed with Decisive Arts, we might spend most of our time inside their zone anyway so maybe Dash Vision isn't really needed and we can just resort to a 2XX3 set. I'm not too sure xD Any opinions?

Decisive arts are bad and horrible against zoners. If you are getting zoned and are stuck in the wrong art, you are screwed.

 

[erico9001]

Decisive arts are bad and horrible against zoners. If you are getting zoned and are stuck in the wrong art, you are screwed.

The developers added that extra activation time so that we don't get stuck in the wrong art.

 

[Piford]

The developers added that extra activation time so that we don't get stuck in the wrong art.

Yeah but if I switch to buster when it's advantageous to me, and then my opponent gets a good read, I'm stuck getting barraged by projectiles for a bunch of extra damage.

 

[Scarhi]

Decisive arts are bad and horrible against zoners. If you are getting zoned and are stuck in the wrong art, you are screwed.

Well, the set would be meant to stay in Speed art for pretty much the whole match against zoners. And maybe use Jump when you're at high enough percentages so that the debuff doesn't matter anymore. Theoretically, it doesn't seem that risky

 

[Piford]

Well, the set would be meant to stay in Speed art for pretty much the whole match against zoners. And maybe use Jump when you're at high enough percentages so that the debuff doesn't matter anymore. Theoretically, it doesn't seem that risky

That just seems like a waste of Shulk's potential. Decisive arts are pretty bad basically all the time by how limiting they are, and they hardly deserve the two sets they already have. And the sets aren't changing anyways now that they've gone public.