Shulk custom moveset discussion 2.0

[Splash Damage]

It's a problem for Shulk when he's gimped upon using Air Slash or Mighty Air Slash because he can't auto-snap the ledge with AS or MAS unless it was the startup of the 1st or the 2nd slash. Stage-spiking Shulk becomes less of a chore once you know how Shulk recovers with Air Slash even if he reverses the direction of AS to contest against walk-off ledge-guarding. This is a good reason to use AAS because you don't get forced or need to recover from low when you utilize AAS' 2nd slash to edge-guard break & grab the ledge safely. I should also say that a well-spaced & timed AAS can slash the ledge area with the 2nd hit & grab the ledge very shortly after even when it's countered by a Shulk's Dash Vision. This is something neither AS nor MAS can do because they always rise up in their 2nd slash.

Exactly, it has MU usefulness and niches that make it worth it.

 

[VentusAlpha]

1312 seems like a fair set. I don't have too many problems with it. I could argue AAS instead of AS but then that would actually give the zoners a better target so no complaints from me. As for the rest of the customs, I'm fine with that list.

 

[Splash Damage]

Okay so we're leaning towards 1312?
Sounds about right, so that gives us:
1113
1313
1223
1323
1312
2113
3113
3213
3313
3323
Any further objections?

 

[Piford]

Okay so we're leaning towards 1312?
Sounds about right, so that gives us:
1113
1313
1223
1323
1312
2113
3113
3213
3313
3323
Any further objections?

We should make sure the sets are in most useful order

Also why 1223 over 1213. Actually, why are all the AAS sets paired with Back Slash Charge instead of Default? I think it'd be more useful to invest in AAS slots over various backslash slots since Backslash isn't very good anyways. We haven't really discussed Might Air Slash (or Back Slash Leap) at all, and we probably should before finalizing anything. Also weren't we gonna put 3233?

 

[Goesasu]

Hello guys, usually i dont post here very often, mostly lurking, but now its time to speak.

2133 must be a reality and replace the 2113 you guys are using for the following reasons:

Power Vision: No explanation needed. Direct upgrade.

Regular Backslash: Its the one that does more damage and works as a potential punishing kill option.
Very situational but better than the others.

Decisive monado:
I cant believe it only has one set, its truly amazing. I use to have troubles while playing other good players but since I opened my horizons to try new things this custom has made my life A LOT EASIER:

Pros:
*Arts lasts longer, 4 seconds.--> amazing, more time in speed, buster and shield mode yes please!!
*Art buffs are stronger while the debuffs stays the same.--> Truly amazing and the true reason why this is better than regular art.
-Buster mode has to be respected, 19% jab combo, 19% backthrow i can go on. SAFER HITS ON SHIELDS!!!
-Speed is even faster, more horizontal movement and it allows more follow ups.
-Shield now works as it is supossed to. You are very heavy and now you wont be thrown offstage like while using regular monado arts, so there is no true need to change this art to jump like you are used to.
-Smash now truly kills, but it should only be used on the last stock of the match.

Cons:
*Activation time 1,5 sec instead of 1 sec. Not annoying at all so it doesnt matter.
*Cant change the art once you choose one.
I know what you are all thinking, "this is what kills it, shulk is all about adaptability", well thats not true at all.
Buster and speed truly shine with this custom so you will spend most of the time in those. (just like with regular monado arts).
I always start with buster, doing at least 80% to my opponent with just like 6 hits, then once its off i enter speed and confirm the kill thanks to the extra movility. then repeat the process or enter shield mode.
Decisive shield its waaaay better than regular shield, you are a lot heavier and difficult to gimp trust me.
*Smash mode should only be used on the last stock. True, but now its deadly unlike with regular monado arts.

The myth you must not believe:
*Jump mode its the true looser because you cant use it to recover if you are on another art mode.
In theory this is true but it is not on practice and this is why:

1- You usually start the match with buster, so in 20 secs you wont be sent very far so there is no need for jump.
2.- Once you are on speed you usually dont need jump either, the horizontal movement you get is enough for most cases.
3- Decisive shield is a lot better than regular shield, you wont be thrown offstage as often so there wont be any need to change to jump. And finally the reason that helps to cover any other hole in the last two points:

Custom 3 Mighty air slash:

I used to believe this one was the worst of the up b...god i was wrong. This is not only better than regular airslash an AAS, but it covers the only flaws decisive monado arts have.

Pros:
*More extra vertical height than any other up b custom. Its about half shulk more and this is crucial.
It patches the lower jump height that you have while on speed and shileld, very very important for decisive speed and shield.
This is what makes that you never, truly never never never need to change to jump mode. Trust me, today i played 8 hours with other good players and i didnt have the urge to use jump not even once thanks to this.
*Also it allows me to edgeguard a lot better going even deeper.
*Vertical Kills unlike the diagonals 45 degree that the other variations have. This makes it kill early, a lot earlier than the other versions.
*Hits harder, abour 5% extra damage.

Cons:
*Less range than the others. True, but it still has enough range to use it OOS or as punish.
*Harder to land the second hit. True, but once you practice you will learn the timing and that wont be an issue anymore.

Mighty air slash is better than regular airslash no questions ask. The pros and rewards are a lot better than default and they also patch the holes on decesive monado arts. I cant stress this enough 2133 is the best set i have ever tried and mighty air slash its a crucial reason for that. You will never ever need to use jump to recover anymore and this is why its crucial for decisive monado arts.

Since I play like this my opponents are always impressed with my game. They says thing like "you hit as hard as ganon and run faster than sonic", "i cant beat you with than customs", "now thats as OP as diddy".etc...
Trust me when i say that these custom are very very good and way better than the tipical 1113 that i used to play.

This is my petition, 2133 must be a reality or you guys will be responsible for leaving shulk without an (if not the best) excellent set. So please make it happen, im open to answer all question regarding this set but please discuss and try it, just try it.

Probably mighty air slash is what will need more discussion but trust me when I say this, its the best of shulks up b.
Try it, practice and see. Its better on paper and in practice.

 

[erico9001]

The ability to recover more horizontally is mostly unnecessary, as the combination of Jump monado's aerial momentum boosts and the sheer vertical height gained when using both of default AS's hits almost guarantees that he will be recovering. In my experience, there has almost never been a time where i was unable to recover with Shulk whenever I executed this properly(I accidentally hit Speed a lot)

Well I have. At high level play AS is susceptible to spikes and stage spikes.

The ability to AS/AAS OoS w/Smash art on to punish people recovering with an attack is more safe with AS, as they both kill at nearly identical percents at the very ledge due to the fact that AAS sends you a bit farther ahead(85% w/AS, 80% w/AAS), and AS simply sends you upward, enabling you to land on the stage and not be at the risk of losing stage control if the opponent survives with good DI. AAS, at the ideal position for this, forces you to grab ledge and go through a getup animation, and possibly even miss the ledge and SD

This is simple. If you don't land the first strike of AAS, don't go for the second one. This is even easier for AAS, which has more time you can delay the two strikes.

(Thuis has happened in testing, and it doesn't take much missed drifting to miss the ledge.

How are you missing the ledge? All you need to do is hold left; there is no quick timing or anything. There's no effort.

It has been said before in the thread that Shulk can possibly miss the second hit of AAS when in Jump mode when he's too close, and due to the smash 4 grab-from-six-years-away ledges, missing the final hit of a Jump edgeguard and letting any character with a decent recovery return to the stage just fine while you lose a stock is not something that can be gambled on.

Aren't you aware that normal AS has issues connecting the two hits while in Monado Jump too? You can read all about this business here:

Ever curious what grounded opponents Air Slash works on (both hits)?

Note: The only things that change how high the opponent is hit by air slash are the rage effect, whether or not the opponent is crouching, whether or not the move is tipped, and the position he is in relation to you.
-The opponent's damage does not matter. They can be at 999% and it will work.
-Your Monado Art does not matter at all, except for Monado Jump.
-edit: staling does not matter
-edit: Oh, and DI affects it too.

I will be testing opponents who are standing on level ground.

Shulk at 0%, Air Slash does not work on:
Jigglypuff
Shield Shulk

Shulk at 0%, Jump Air Slash does not work on:
Bowser
Wario
Link
Marth
Ike
Robin
King Dedede
Charizard
Captain Falcon
Monado Jump Shulk
Monado Shield Shulk
Lucina
Mega Man

When rage makes normal air slash stop working:
(It's important you read these as your own percents, not the opponents' percents)

Luigi ~142%
Peach ~110%
Rosalina ~85%
G&W ~55%
Little Mac ~125%
Zelda ~97%
ZSS ~120%
Pit ~149%
Paulutena ~114%
Kirby ~56%
Meta Knight ~128%
Falco ~116%
Pikachu ~75%
Ness ~120%
Villager ~136%
Olimar ~84%
WFT ~139%
Smash Shulk ~140% (note, this is when YOU are at 140% and in any mode but Jump)
Dark Pit ~149%
Pac-Man ~126%

When rage makes Jump air slash stop working:
Jigglypuff ~110%

When rage makes normal air slash start working:
Shield Shulk ~86%

When rage makes Jump air slash start working:
Bowser ~89%
Wario ~57%
Link ~36%
Marth ~35%
Ike ~42%
Robin ~43%
King Dedede ~58%
Charizard ~47%
Captain Falcon ~52%
Monado Jump Shulk ~57%
Shield Shulk: never
Lucina ~35%
Mega Man ~99%

Notes:
Tipping makes the move go lower, meaning the percent at which it starts and stops working are both higher. I did these tests without tipping (although, I'm not fully sure I didn't tip some of the earliest tests). I also use the move as quick as possible; delaying the two hits makes Shulk go higher. Delaying, therefore, raises both the starting and ending percents. Delay the attack at higher percents and don't delay at lower percents.

This is still somewhat of a work in progress for that reason.

Here's another reason to use AAS. Monado Jump AAS connects better than Monado Jump AS. It even works on Bowser!

Tl;dr - Nothing here suggests normal AS is better than AAS.

Edit: What if I told you that the 2nd hit of AAS advanced can contest against gimping tools like Mario's fully charged F.L.U.D.D. at close range, & can even survive by drifting towards the stage after the water finishes?

It's a problem for Shulk when he's gimped upon using Air Slash or Mighty Air Slash because he can't auto-snap the ledge with AS or MAS unless it was the startup of the 1st or the 2nd slash. Stage-spiking Shulk becomes less of a chore once you know how Shulk recovers with Air Slash even if he reverses the direction of AS to contest against walk-off ledge-guarding. This is a good reason to use AAS because you don't get forced or need to recover from low when you utilize AAS' 2nd slash to edge-guard break & grab the ledge safely. I should also say that a well-spaced & timed AAS can slash the ledge area with the 2nd hit & grab the ledge very shortly after even when it's countered by a Shulk's Dash Vision. This is something neither AS nor MAS can do because they always rise up in their 2nd slash.

Oh wow, another significant advantage to AAS!

edits all done

 

[Berserker.]

Hello guys, usually i dont post here very often, mostly lurking, but now its time to speak.

2133 must be a reality and replace the 2113 you guys are using for the following reasons:

Power Vision: No explanation needed. Direct upgrade.

Regular Backslash: Its the one that does more damage and works as a potential punishing kill option.
Very situational but better than the others.
Decisive monado:
I cant believe it only has one set, its truly amazing. I use to have troubles while playing other good players but since I opened my horizons to try new things this custom has made my life A LOT EASIER:

Pros:
*Arts lasts longer, 4 seconds.--> amazing, more time in speed, buster and shield mode yes please!!
*Art buffs are stronger while the debuffs stays the same.--> Truly amazing and the true reason why this is better than regular art.
-Buster mode has to be respected, 19% jab combo, 19% backthrow i can go on. SAFER HITS ON SHIELDS!!!
-Speed is even faster, more horizontal movement and it allows more follow ups.
-Shield now works as it is supossed to. You are very heavy and now you wont be thrown offstage like while using regular monado arts, so there is no true need to change this art to jump like you are used to.
-Smash now truly kills, but it should only be used on the last stock of the match.

Cons:
*Activation time 1,5 sec instead of 1 sec. Not annoying at all so it doesnt matter.
*Cant change the art once you choose one.
I know what you are all thinking, "this is what kills it, shulk is all about adaptability", well thats not true at all.
Buster and speed truly shine with this custom so you will spend most of the time in those. (just like with regular monado arts).
I always start with buster, doing at least 80% to my opponent with just like 6 hits, then once its off i enter speed and confirm the kill thanks to the extra movility. then repeat the process or enter shield mode.
Decisive shield its waaaay better than regular shield, you are a lot heavier and difficult to gimp trust me.
*Smash mode should only be used on the last stock. True, but now its deadly unlike with regular monado arts.

The myth you must not believe:
*Jump mode its the true looser because you cant use it to recover if you are on another art mode.
In theory this is true but it is not on practice and this is why:

1- You usually start the match with buster, so in 20 secs you wont be sent very far so there is no need for jump.
2.- Once you are on speed you usually dont need jump either, the horizontal movement you get is enough for most cases.
3- Decisive shield is a lot better than regular shield, you wont be thrown offstage as often so there wont be any need to change to jump. And finally the reason that helps to cover any other hole in the last two points:

Custom 3 Mighty air slash:

I used to believe this one was the worst of the up b...god i was wrong. This is not only better than regular airslash an AAS, but it covers the only flaws decisive monado arts have.

Pros:
*More extra vertical height than any other up b custom. Its about half shulk more and this is crucial.
It patches the lower jump height that you have while on speed and shileld, very very important for decisive speed and shield.
This is what makes that you never, truly never never never need to change to jump mode. Trust me, today i played 8 hours with other good players and i didnt have the urge to use jump not even once thanks to this.
*Also it allows me to edgeguard a lot better going even deeper.
*Vertical Kills unlike the diagonals 45 degree that the other variations have. This makes it kill early, a lot earlier than the other versions.
*Hits harder, abour 5% extra damage.

Cons:
*Less range than the others. True, but it still has enough range to use it OOS or as punish.
*Harder to land the second hit. True, but once you practice you will learn the timing and that wont be an issue anymore.

Mighty air slash is better than regular airslash no questions ask. The pros and rewards are a lot better than default and they also patch the holes on decesive monado arts. I cant stress this enough 2133 is the best set i have ever tried and mighty air slash its a crucial reason for that. You will never ever need to use jump to recover anymore and this is why its crucial for decisive monado arts.

Since I play like this my opponents are always impressed with my game. They says thing like "you hit as hard as ganon and run faster than sonic", "i cant beat you with than customs", "now thats as OP as diddy".etc...
Trust me when i say that these custom are very very good and way better than the tipical 1113 that i used to play.

This is my petition, 2133 must be a reality or you guys will be responsible for leaving shulk without an (if not the best) excellent set. So please make it happen, im open to answer all question regarding this set but please discuss and try it, just try it.

Probably mighty air slash is what will need more discussion but trust me when I say this, its the best of shulks up b.
Try it, practice and see. Its better on paper and in practice.

Excellent write up. Although I'd say advancing air slash might be better for the set, we can't immediately switch to jump anymore so we'll need to compensate that with mighty air slash's vertical recovery height. Good points. I'll add that to the list

Here's how the list looks at the moment (Thanks to @ Splash Damage )

Edit: I'd LOVE to replace 2113 with 2133 but some players are just in love with default air slash or they feel safe with it.

Critical sets
1113 (Default Monado set)
2113 (Default Decisive set)
3113 (Default Hyper set)

Personal Preference sets (Default Monado Arts)
1123 (Advancing air slash+MArts)
1313 (Back slash charge+MArts)
1323 (Back slash charge+Advancing air slash+MArts)

Personal Preference sets (Decisive Monado Arts)
2133 (Recovery compensation/no need for Monado jump)

Personal Preference sets (Hyper Monado arts)
3323 (Advancing air slash+Back slash charge+HArts)
3313 (Back slash charge+HArts)

Niche sets (Match up specific)
1312 (Zone breaker set)

 

[Goesasu]

@berseker01 As long as 2133 makes the cut i dont care if its a critical or preference set. Thank you.

I also used to believe that Advancing Airslash would be better with decisive arts because of the extra horizontal recovery of the second hit, but in practice it is uneeded and usually leads to suicides.
Its uneeded because when you are on decisive speed you already have enough horizontal movibility to get the ledge even from far far away. When you are on decisive shield you wont be thrown offstage far enough to desperate need that horizontal recovery (unless you are on like 180% of course).
But you will always need the extra vertical recovery that Mighty Airslash gives you (about half of shulks body), always. It patches the jump height loss of speed and shield and lets you edgeguard deeper.

If you pair up regular or decisive shield or speed with AAS the vertical heigh loss of those arts and AAS will make you pay and die sooner than expected.
I did extensive testing with AAS and i cant recommend it over regular Air Slash in any set or way, it has it niche uses but overall its far from being better than regular.

Now i must ask, have you people given a try to Mighty Air Slash? I have to ask because it is better than Regular Air Slash in almost every way and it should be in more (if not all) sets. Let me explain why:


Mighty Air Slash pros vs Regular Air slash
1.- Mighty does 5% more damage than regular
2.- Mighty leads to vertical kills, so it kills sooner than regular that kills in a 45% degree angle. (see pits upperdash arm vs dark pits electroshock arm)
3.- Mighty has extra vertical recovery height about half of shulks body. Lets you recover safer and edge guard better. This helps to recover better in regular or decisive speed or shield and completely replaces monado jump so you will never need it to recover, but if you want to fight while in it be my guest.

Regular Air slash pros vs Mighty Air Slash
1.- Its easier to link the second hit with regular than with Mighty. Once you practice enough with Mightys timing you will see that this can be overcomed and connecting the second hit will be second nature.
2.- Regular has more hit range than Mighty. Completly true and its the one and only true advantage that regular has over Mighty, but Mighty still has enough range (similar to f-tilt) to hit OOS or out of spot dodge or as a punishing option, and unlike regular it can lead to a kill in less %.

These are the 5 differences between them.

Make you choice and tell me why would anyone prefer regular air slash over mighty because i cant see any good reason for doing that.

 

[VentusAlpha]

@berseker01 As long as 2133 makes the cut i dont care if its a critical or preference set. Thank you.

I also used to believe that Advancing Airslash would be better with decisive arts because of the extra horizontal recovery of the second hit, but in practice it is uneeded and usually leads to suicides.
Its uneeded because when you are on decisive speed you already have enough horizontal movibility to get the ledge even from far far away. When you are on decisive shield you wont be thrown offstage far enough to desperate need that horizontal recovery (unless you are on like 180% of course).
But you will always need the extra vertical recovery that Mighty Airslash gives you (about half of shulks body), always. It patches the jump height loss of speed and shield and lets you edgeguard deeper.

If you pair up regular or decisive shield or speed with AAS the vertical heigh loss of those arts and AAS will make you pay and die sooner than expected.
I did extensive testing with AAS and i cant recommend it over regular Air Slash in any set or way, it has it niche uses but overall its far from being better than regular.

Now i must ask, have you people given a try to Mighty Air Slash? I have to ask because it is better than Regular Air Slash in almost every way and it should be in more (if not all) sets. Let me explain why:


Mighty Air Slash pros vs Regular Air slash
1.- Mighty does 5% more damage than regular
2.- Mighty leads to vertical kills, so it kills sooner than regular that kills in a 45% degree angle. (see pits upperdash arm vs dark pits electroshock arm)
3.- Mighty has extra vertical recovery height about half of shulks body. Lets you recover safer and edge guard better. This helps to recover better in regular or decisive speed or shield and completely replaces monado jump so you will never need it to recover, but if you want to fight while in it be my guest.

Regular Air slash pros vs Mighty Air Slash
1.- Its easier to link the second hit with regular than with Mighty. Once you practice enough with Mightys timing you will see that this can be overcomed and connecting the second hit will be second nature.
2.- Regular has more hit range than Mighty. Completly true and its the one and only true advantage that regular has over Mighty, but Mighty still has enough range (similar to f-tilt) to hit OOS or out of spot dodge or as a punishing option, and unlike regular it can lead to a kill in less %.

These are the 5 differences between them.

Make you choice and tell me why would anyone prefer regular air slash over mighty because i cant see any good reason for doing that.

A lot of what has been said is that all the sets are more about personal preference and while MAS is more or less better than AS because it travels up higher, has better killing power, does more damage but then again, AS is more reliable and has more range for a little less damage and people are OK with that as reliability is sometimes more preferred over higher damage output and better recovery. One advantage a move has can completely outweigh the amount of advantages one move has over another in someone's eyes. That's just how it is. And If I was being perfectly honest, I would take neither of those as I vastly prefer AAS rather than MAS or AS. I can recover from higher and have some nice follow ups and can use it as a combo tool. I just love it more than the other two.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Would Decisive Arts work better for the zone-breaker set since we're mostly focusing on using speed/jump to break through projectile walls?

 

[Berserker.]

Seems like you guys want AAS to become the mainstream air slash variant. Are we final on this, or you guys still want to have variants with air slash or AAS?

 

[Goesasu]

Seems like you guys want AAS to become the mainstream air slash variant. Are we final on this, or you guys still want to have variants with air slash or AAS?

As long as 2133 makes the cut im fine with everything else.
Decisive monado needs Mighty Air Slash for the extra heigh recovery in speed and shield, and thats crucial for the inhability to change to jump.

I still believe that AAS its not as good as regular air slash or MAS, but it still should have sets for it.
IMO the decrease heigh on the second hit kills it in most cases, specially in speed and shield.

 

[Berserker.]

To be honest, we might need at least one set with MAS just to be sure if anyone actually likes MAS so... I'll keep it on the list

 

[Goesasu]

To be honest, we might need at least one set with MAS just to be sure if anyone actually likes MAS so... I'll keep it on the list

I strongly believe that MAS its better than regular AS in every set.

Actually we only have 2 polarizing customs because the other 2 are already "set".


Non polarazing specials:

Vision: It always will be custom 3 power vision. Only exception its on the zone breaker set.

Backslash: No special set should be given just for this special. No matter what variation you prefer, they are all situationals and it never "makes or break" any set. We can argue about its variations only as filler after we have decided all other sets than revolves around the 2 polarazing specials.

Polarazing specials:

Monado arts: Right here you have 3 useable customs that need to be represented no matter what.

Air Slash: All of them are useable. IMO Mighty Air Slash completly outclasses regular AS once you learn the timing of the second hit. AAS serves a different purpose and it should be represented.

If we have 10 sets, and you reserve 3 sets just for "crucial" 1113,2113, 3113 and the zone breaker set, only 6 sets left. Those six sets should be used for the polarizing customs, air slash and monado arts variant, because as i said before, the side b custom doesnt deserve its own set just because of it.

So i would vote that no matter what, these sets should exist:

Regular Monado arts and Air Slash Variants plus Power Vision
1123
1133

Decisive Monado arts and Air Slash Variants plus Power Vision
2123
2133

Hyper Monado arts and Air Slash Variants plus Power Vision
3123
3133

IMO this is the best solution to our custom issues. Monado arts and air slash variants are what players actually can and should "prefer" while playing as shulk. Vision must be power vision because its so much better than any other option. Finally, side b customs doesnt really matter and you shoulnt give a special set just for them, they will never "make or break" a set so its just bonus but not a truly important decision like the other 2 polarizing customs.

 

[Berserker.]

Critical sets
1113
2113
3113

Preferential sets
1123
1133
2123
2133
3123
3133

Niche sets
1312

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Would Decisive Arts work better for the zone-breaker set since I imagine we're mostly focusing on using speed/jump to break through projectile walls?

I'd like to hear some thoughts on this

Those sets are solid, but it really bugs me that Backslash gets almost completely ignored. I get the logic behind it, as our recovery and defining mechanic attacks are definitely more important choices to make than our situational laggy KO move, but it having the option of making it faster/giving it super armor was nice.

 

[Goesasu]

I'd like to hear some thoughts on this

Those sets are solid, but it really bugs me that Backslash gets almost completely ignored. I get the logic behind it, as our recovery and defining mechanic attacks are definitely more important choices to make than our situational laggy KO move, but it having the option of making it faster/giving it super armor was nice.

As long as we all agree that those sets are solid and needed we are on the right track. Any decision we make now regarding side b variants are not going to hurt any set.

Backslash charge has it uses in the zone breaker set that is a given and the reason why its there.

All backslash variants has it uses i guess (?) but none of them truly shines.

-Back slash charge: has great horizontal leap which is nice, super armor also nice.
Little less damage and killing power than default, thats not nice but its not a deal breaker.
But more ending lag than default its the true deal breaker that makes it worse than default.

-Back slash leap: Does a little more damage and has more killing power than default so nice.
But the poor horizontal leap makes it useless for what it is supossed to do, punishing.
Landing this move its very very hard, even on favorable circumstances. This is a deal breaker.

-Default Backslash: the best of both worlds, good damage and killing power and a very decent horizontal leap that makes it possible to land the move on favorable circumstances. Nothing to write a book about buts its ok, just ok but better than the other two in most scenarios.

IMO default backslash its the better and safest option, the other two just doesnt make the cut.
Thats why it should be used on all variants except on the zone breaker set where backslash charge truly shines (?) somehow...

 

[Plain Yogurt]

If we're deciding "which Backslash is the best all-around" and then just filling every set with that version then yeah default is the best all-around like just about every default special is the best all-around of a set and there's nothing more to discuss. My thought was just that if we had the space somewhere it'd be nice to have a Leaping Backslash set for those more vertically-inclined stages/match-ups or for people like me who just prefer it. Like you've said it's not necessarily game changer. Just my 2 cents on the subject.

 

[Goesasu]

If we're deciding "which Backslash is the best all-around" and then just filling every set with that version then yeah default is the best all-around like just about every default special is the best all-around of a set and there's nothing more to discuss. My thought was just that if we had the space somewhere it'd be nice to have a Leaping Backslash set for those more vertically-inclined stages/match-ups or for people like me who just prefer it. Like you've said it's not necessarily game changer. Just my 2 cents on the subject.

When you choose your set what is the first thing you look for?
-First monado art. Default, decisive or hyper. This defines your playstyle more than anything else.
-Second power vision because its that good. Im not playing custom shulk without it.
-Third air slash. Default, mighty or advancing. All these are good and serves different purposes. (even though imo mighty outclasses default)

All of those are reasons to choose a set. If a set doesnt have one of those then people will look for a set that meets all of those criteria they are looking for.

-Then backslash, its completely secondary. Nobody is going to choose a set over another because "that one has x custom backslash, even tough it has x custom monado art or x custom airslash that i have never tried before".

Backslash is not a game changer and it cant be the reason to choose a set over another. Thats why it doesnt deserve a set for the only one and unique reason of having x custom backslash. This means that we should just choose the best option and fill all sets with it, because imo we cant justify using default backslash on some sets and leap or charge in others. It would be random or arbitriary.

As long as the general opinion is that default is the best of the three it should be the one that fills all sets, except the zone breaker set where charge its useful (sort of).

I would love that leap or charge were better than default because it isnt any prize either, but somehow charge and leap are even worse than default most of the time.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

If we're deciding "which Backslash is the best all-around" and then just filling every set with that version then yeah default is the best all-around like just about every default special is the best all-around of a set and there's nothing more to discuss. My thought was just that if we had the space somewhere it'd be nice to have a Leaping Backslash set for those more vertically-inclined stages/match-ups or for people like me who just prefer it. Like you've said it's not necessarily game changer. Just my 2 cents on the subject.

I honestly think back slash charge is booty, the end lag is so bad I got punished for landing it and said **** it. On top of how slow Back slash is anyways and that this thing has no real power. It's garbage to me. Lag is so heavy you can't even use it as a landing option even with the super armor.

Only Back slashes to me worth a damn are default and Leaping.


Mighty doesnt outclass default because Mighty has a notably smaller hitbox, which is demonstrably a factor and will cost you opportunities. They're equal at best though I do like Mighty. And I dont like AAS.

 

[Masonomace]

We haven't really discussed Might Air Slash (or Back Slash Leap) at all, and we probably should before finalizing anything. Also weren't we gonna put 3233?

I could give my last input for those two Customs but I'd rather talk only about BSL for some reason. I'll just do that real fast:
Back Slash Leap

Honestly the only thing I'm going to discuss about BSL is platforms & how they can make this move important. You take a flat stage like FD or an Omega stage & it's meh but when you use BSL on a stage that has platforms the move becomes a greater mix-up & punish tool. Utilizing a platform with BSL from the floor or from another platform allows Shulk to perfectly land on the platform which makes usage of the landing hit-box (this is BSL's strongest hit). Hitting with the back-side of the move deals 18% when it lands on a platform perfectly OR if you're playing on a flat stage, you can ledge-drop away from the ledge & instantly input BSL to land on the floor. The stages you can do this on include:

• (Any flat stage) Ledge-drop away & input BSL quickly
• Battlefield (floor to platform / running off platform & BSL'ing to the top platform)
• Delfino Plaza (Numerous places)
• Halberd (The 1st transition can be from the lower level floor to platform from above / also works on the 2nd transition)
• Lylat Cruise
• Castle Siege (Works on the 1st & 2nd transitions from floor to platform. The 2nd transition can work from platform to platform)
• Town and City
• Smashville (from the floor at anytime to the moving platform)

When I use BSL as a platform punish tool, I wear their shield down enough with a U-tilt & a SH > N-air or two. After I have their shield worn down with or without a Buster Art active, that's when I think about a BSL on the back of their shield because the move dealing 18% by itself on shield is nasty. Have a Buster Art active & that BSL will break their shield if not almost breaking it.

Lol a neat thing I noticed with doing a Buster Art + BSL & landing very close by the end of the platform, you'll deal so much shield-stun & shield-damage that you'll slide backward & be physically off the platform. After the landing lag ends you'll be able to act with anything you want (this is weird but I find it to be awesome & it can make you "safer"). BSL with a Smash Art also goes without saying so I won't mention about it.

Note: Back Slash Leap already comes out faster than Back Slash. Back Slash Leap used for landing on platforms still comes out faster than Back Slash & doesn't have much worse landing lag on a platform compared to using it on the floor.

Conclusion: This move is great for platforms. I'm sticking with BSL in all of my sets to compliment my style. Since Back Slash or a Back Slash custom doesn't define a set, I am fine with that.

 

[Goesasu]

I honestly think back slash charge is booty, the end lag is so bad I got punished for landing it and said **** it. On top of how slow Back slash is anyways and that this thing has no real power. It's garbage to me. Lag is so heavy you can't even use it as a landing option even with the super armor.

Only Back slashes to me worth a damn are default and Leaping.


Mighty doesnt outclass default because Mighty has a notably smaller hitbox, which is demonstrably a factor and will cost you opportunities. They're equal at best though I do like Mighty. And I dont like AAS.

I agree with you, IMO mighty is better than default but the beauty of our 10 sets is that we already got all options covered for every monado art. Do you prefer playing default monado art, decisive or hyper art with default airslash, mighty or advancing? Doesnt matter because we have a set for all of those needs and all of them come with power vision!

IMO we already reached a point where all the critical and preference sets are solid and cover all the best possible options.

 

[Masonomace]

All of the Monado Art & Air Slash Customs are viable, so it'd be normal if they were all spread throughout 10 sets. Power Vision would be in 8 - 9 sets to leave out Dash Vision for breaking Zoning from projectiles / mid - long range footsies etc..

Back Slash Charge is lacking, so I'd have it in just one set if not at all. Back Slash & BSL can be spread throughout the 10 sets. That's pretty much it for a quick post for now.

Edit: Oh, & about @ Plain Yogurt 's proposition of Decisive Arts zone-breaking is appreciated. 2XX2 is a nice zone-breaking set. BS or BSL don't necessarily improve the set, but I find that AAS is the superior AS custom to use for this set AAS oos is much more consistent regardless of the opponent's DI & the 2nd slash by itself can stuff SH > projectile camping.

 

[Splash Damage]

Mighty air slash is better than regular airslash no questions ask.
Probably mighty air slash is what will need more discussion but trust me when I say this, its the best of shulks up b.
Try it, practice and see. Its better on paper and in practice.

Give me a bit, I'll have my side of the arguement posted up in a moment.
EDIT:
Here's my side:
In my opinion, Mighty is the least ideal option for Up-Bs. AS is a sufficient Jack-Of-All-Trades for most MUs and AAS is, as stated by many in this thread, a great option for many MUs, though possibly lacking in some other areas. However, neither of those really matter for their main purpose:an OoS option.
THink of this:What are Shulk's OoS options with MAS? Up Smash, Grab, and MAS. all four of those options are decent to good, but are horrible against any character with range and proper spacing, both things that are staples of high-level play. Up-Smash only works if they read you wrong or are just reckless, Grab is good for tilt/dash attack reads, but MAS's options are both already covered by the formers. Both AS and AAS are able to cover so many more options with their incredible range(I know of a video showing it off, I'll link it in a moment). It can cover decently-spaced aerials, offensive recoveries, hit some opponents attempting to recover below the lip of a stage, the list goes on.
In Smash 4 especially, the Shield is easily one of the most commanding forces in not THE most commanding force in neutral, as the minimal shieldstun and high overall landing lag enables characters to tap shield, block an attack, and punish with their OoS option. Characters unable to reliably to this, such as Wii Fit Trainer due to her non-offensive up-b and poor range, are at a large disadvantage in Neutral.
The OoS properties alone are what I feel make this his least superior option.
However, I will safely say that, if on any set, this custom works best with Decisive arts, and I applaud your deductions and testing. Give me a sec, I'll update the list.
Edit 2: here's the video showing my proof:
http://youtu.be/VkF5FoUuE-4

 

[ChronoPenguin]

but I find that AAS is the superior AS custom to use for this set AAS oos is much more consistent regardless of the opponent's DI & the 2nd slash by itself can stuff SH > projectile camping.

Doubtful. AAS has the worst vertical of Air slashes. Vertical being particularly relevant since you can't stance swap to Jump. Recovering low becomes a headache. Going deep also becomes problematic. AAS becomes a high risk pick on Decisive that you take with a game plan in mind. I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[Splash Damage]

So, Currently, the Shulk setlist sits at this(Credit to @ Berserker. for compiling them)

Critical sets
1113
2113
3113

Preferential sets
1123
1133
2123
2133
3123
3133

Niche sets
1312

Now, let's change up the options & trim out the fat.

Critical sets
1113
2113
3113

Preferential sets
1123
1313
1223
2133
3123
3133
Niche set
2223/1213

Changes:
Removed:
1133-Aforementioned reasons;I don't feel that, with the large downgrades brought by MAS, it should be used not in tandem with DMA.
2123-This set gives Shulk a big weakness: Poor and unreliable vertical recovery with the overall lower height of AAS, and the inability to freely switch between Monados. Decisive Shield does make it harder to take him off ledge, but the Speed's lower jump height paired with the high knockback of a good amount of throws on most characters make it too risky to be included over the others.

Added:
1313-Variation of the critical set, just there for backslash variation for MUs like C. Falcon or Fox where they have moves that put themselves behind you. Eat through the hit with the super armor and get a decent-strength hit in, and even mix up your recoveries.
1223-Just an option for Back Slash Leap. AAS to enable more horizontal movement and cover more ground on Battlefield/Lylat.
1213/2223-I'd actually like for anyone in the thread to help decide which Zoner-counter set to go with, as i've heard conflicting opinions.
Anyone have any more points to make?

 

[Piford]

So, Currently, the Shulk setlist sits at this(Credit to @ Berserker. for compiling them)

Critical sets
1113
2113
3113

Preferential sets
1123
1133
2123
2133
3123
3133

Niche sets
1312

Now, let's change up the options & trim out the fat.

Critical sets
1113
2113
3113

Preferential sets
1123
1313
1223
2133
3123
3133
Niche set
2223/1213

Changes:
Removed:
1133-Aforementioned reasons;I don't feel that, with the large downgrades brought by MAS, it should be used not in tandem with DMA.
2123-This set gives Shulk a big weakness: Poor and unreliable vertical recovery with the overall lower height of AAS, and the inability to freely switch between Monados. Decisive Shield does make it harder to take him off ledge, but the Speed's lower jump height paired with the high knockback of a good amount of throws on most characters make it too risky to be included over the others.

Added:
1313-Variation of the critical set, just there for backslash variation for MUs like C. Falcon or Fox where they have moves that put themselves behind you. Eat through the hit with the super armor and get a decent-strength hit in, and even mix up your recoveries.
1223-Just an option for Back Slash Leap. AAS to enable more horizontal movement and cover more ground on Battlefield/Lylat.
1213/2223-I'd actually like for anyone in the thread to help decide which Zoner-counter set to go with, as i've heard conflicting opinions.
Anyone have any more points to make?

I don't see why we would swap out dash vision for Power Vision on our zoner set. We definitely don't need 3 decisive monado arts slots (I'm not really convinced we need two), and I don't really see how 1213 is better against zoners than 1312. That being said I do think 1213 could be a viable set possibly in place of 3133 or 2113.

 

[Splash Damage]

I don't see why we would swap out dash vision for Power Vision on our zoner set. We definitely don't need 3 decisive monado arts slots (I'm not really convinced we need two), and I don't really see how 1213 is better against zoners than 1312. That being said I do think 1213 could be a viable set possibly in place of 3133 or 2113.

Ah, It appears I messed it up, 1213 was supposed to be 1312, haha.

That and, I also don't really think that many decisive slots are necessary, maybe two at most, as there is really only one personf asking for it and they have supplied a set that is essentially the best and only really essential one.
So, we reorganize:
Critical sets
1113
2113
3113
Preferential sets
1123
1313
1213
1223
2133
3123
Niche set
1312

This seems quite a bit better, though I feel that HMA could use at least one more set, as it seems like the most popular option after default. Anyone with any suggestions?

P.S:Proof of the necessary range of Shulk's AS&AAS

 

[kesterstudios]

the sets look good. I use 1113.

 

[erico9001]

I wanted something concrete for Shulk's various recovery options. This should be pretty useful in general.

The lower the angle in this chart, the better the recovery.

Form of recovery| Monado Jump's fall angle | Monado Speed's angle | Vanilla's angle
Just drifting|42°|40°|49.6°
Drift with an air jump|18°|25.4°|35.9°
Drift with Air Slash | 16.7° | 16.7° |34°
Drift with Advancing Air Slash |21.8°| 16.7° | 29.9 °
Drift with Mighty Air Slash | 16.7° |18°|35°
Drift, air jump, and Air Slash | –14° | 0° |11.3°
Drift, air jump, and Advancing Air Slash |–8.5°| 0° | 5.7 °
Drift, air jump, and Mighty Air Slash | –14° |2.9°|15.4°

Using the platforms on the right in combination with the platforms on the left, I was able to find the absolute minimum height you could be on the right side to end up at a specified platform on the right side. Which one I went for on the left side did not matter, as all I needed was the vertical distance traveled between the constant horizontal distance. The horizontal was actually 41, but since you can grab the edge from afar, I estimated that a more realistic figure was 40. It doesn't change the values much, but is worth bringing up.

So the math behind this is find the difference between the number on the left and the number on the right. That is the total distance of the height. Divide that by 40 to get the slope. Then, take the inverse tangent of that value to get the degree of incline.

If you want to be technical, since Shulk is headed down and to the left rather than up to the right, the angle is actually 180° + whatever is in the table. Eh. Whatever.

Summary of the table:
1) Air Slash and Mighty Air Slash are tied for the lowest angles, each while in monado jump. AAS falls somewhat behind here, but not by very much.
2) Air Slash and Advancing Air Slash are tied for the lowest Monado Speed angles. Mighty Air Slash is now the worst, but not by too much.
3) Advancing Air Slash is the best up B for Vanilla, Buster, and Smash, which do not change air movements.

Notes:
Here's some geometry:

The red path taken in this picture is similar to the one Shulk takes when recovering with air slash.

Now if we assume that the total distance gone is the same between the custom up B's, then...

This is more similar to what mighty air slash would look like. Notice that the average path and angle are the same.

And here's what advancing air slash looks like.

If we were to draw another similar line either below or to the right of the line, then that line would not reach the edge. Furthermore, that purple average line would be lowered as well, further showing that you would not reach the ledge. When interpreting the chart at the start of this post, you can gather that any average angle made that is below the average angle in the chart will not make it to the ledge.

-To put this all into perspective, one square in stage builder is almost exactly equal to 1/4 of Shulk's body.

-The stage weight filled up, so I had to spread out the bottom right of the stage.

-These are the maximum recovery points regardless of stage, due to how the average fall angles will be constant.

-I especially made sure to completely max out the amount of spacing that can be placed between the moves. This always helps. It is especially necessary not to spam up B if using AAS, as it will get rid of a lot of your vertical height when you start the second slash.

-Out of all of these, AAS was the easiest to maximize. Since the air speed is not hurt at all after use. AS and MAS you must make sure to use at the exact right moment for the maximum recovery, an issue AAS does not need to worry about. The only thing AAS needs to worry about is being low enough to hit off any edge defenders.

-In each case, I rolled to the opposite edge of the soft platform and ran off the edge.

- Advancing Air Slash is definitely the best up B for Monado Shield. It is the only custom which could achieve a value using this map, so I decided not to include it. It has an angle of 40.4°, which seems bad at first, but is hugely better than the other two arts, and is decent considering that monado shield will not be sent far at all.

- If you're merely drifting for distance and do not care that Jump goes faster, then speed is for you!

- Using normal AS after drifting without a jump is the same for both Monado Speed and Monado Jump. Have you been gimped and are in monado speed? Don't switch out into Monado Jump. You will get the same height in either one. Actually, the letting go of the joystick to press B to try to get to Jump is what might kill you.

-------------------

How can this be applied to the custom moveset project?

-MAS does not have as good of recovery as we think. It is tied with AS while in monado jump, but then only proceeds to get worse and worse. Given its lesser attack range and being more susceptible to ledge guarding, what really is the use of this custom?

-AS is tied both for the best Jump recovery and the best Speed recovery. It's probably a better option to MAS.

-AAS is tied for Monado Speed. It still has a solid Monado Jump recovery, which is still much better than Speed if there is an air jump available. If purely looking at recovery, the advantage of AAS is it allows you to not have to switch out of Buster, Smash, and especially Shield as often. You are more likely to be able to stay in the art you want, and can save Monado Jump (or Monado Speed) for something else.

 

[Goesasu]

@ erico9001 There is no need for fancy science or custom maps to realize that MAS has the best vertical height recovery of the up b. MAS is the only one that can get to the top platform of battlefield with no jumping and without the second hit of air slash. Default AS cant make it without the second hit and AAS cant even make it with both hits!

MAS has the best vertical height of the up b, which is vital while in decisive speed or shield due to the inhability to change to jump.

Also the following its not true:
"If purely looking at recovery, the advantage of AAS is it allows you to not have to switch out of Buster, Smash, and especially Shield as often."

AAS has the worst vertical height of the up b, it cant even get to the top platform of battlefield with both hits!.
imagine that scenario with decisive shield o decisive speed while recovering low........no thanks.

MAS has more uses and credit that you give it, even for pure recovery. Check my other posts in this same page (4) abouth the matter.

 

[Masonomace]

I also don't really think that many decisive slots are necessary, maybe two at most, as there is really only one personf asking for it and they have supplied a set that is essentially the best and only really essential one.
So, we reorganize:
Critical sets
1113
2113
3113
Preferential sets
1123
1313
1213
1223
2133
3123
Niche set
1312

This seems quite a bit better, though I feel that HMA could use at least one more set, as it seems like the most popular option after default. Anyone with any suggestions?

P.S:Proof of the necessary range of Shulk's AS&AAS

Two at most sets for Decisive Arts is fine. You have the 2133 set (I prefer 2233), & then the niche anti-zoning in question of having Decisive Arts or not. One thing I disagree with about the Niche set is Back Slash Charge being there (I'm pretty late on this). From what I've come to find about BSC, it's best used when they're near the ledge area & you take the hit (most likely the projectile) in order to trade with them. Trading damage favorably with the opponent means that you have to Super Armor through the projectile attack & deal the weak damage they take while doing enough knockback to make them slide back or be launched slightly off the stage. That's pretty much the only way this move becomes a deal-maker, but even then you still have to wait for BSC's endlag to finish & by that time the opponent could already be nearby the ledge area over the stage floor from using their doublejump + air speed with an aerial ready (we can put up shield in time but that's moment-based). There doesn't seem to be any real advantage using this move for breaking a zoner so instead I'd opt for BS or BSL. Between the Monado Art customs, I'd either roll with regular or Decisive Arts. On one hand it'd be good to go DArts because you have stronger & prolonged Arts like DJump & DSpeed but on the other hand it'd be loss of an opportunity by being stuck in an Art in case you needed to deactivate it & activate Buster or Smash for zoning the ledge. I'm not saying that DJump or DSpeed can't zone the ledge though. Eh, I don't mind either way. My suggestion (I'm open to counter-arguments against my suggestion):
Niche set - aka Anti-zoning
1122 OR 2112

About HArts. I think HArts & MArts do best with pretty much the same sets. HArts are a preference when we try mixing up the Back Slash or Air Slash customs, so ya just gotta think extreme.

MAS has the best vertical height of the up b, which is vital while in decisive speed or shield due to the inhability to change to jump.

Btw, I tried out your 2133 set & I enjoyed using it, though I swapped out Back Slash with BSL for preference & platform control =].

My thoughts:
I disagree with the point about MAS' vertical height alleviating DShield despite it being heavier than Shield & taking less knockback (which is lovely). When I'm recovering back with DShield being around mid-level drifting forward (mind you my opponent was watching me. He didn't even aggressively edge-guard me to which I was safe), I wait for the right time to use my MAS correctly at the right position for it to be in range from low & hold forward during the 1st slash to inch closer as well as delaying the 2nd slash in order to gain that extra bit of horizontal distance, I don't grab the ledge. No matter how good my combination of air speed + MAS + delaying in between slashes was, I just can't. The air speed distance MAS travels is terrible & DShield can't even recover whereas AS miiiiiiiiight have or AAS, especially AAS. I love my Shield Art & usually am not gimped easily otherwise, but MAS just isn't suited for a Shield Art no matter how good the vertical height is (unless you're within the magnetic bubble range to grab the ledge automatically with Shulk's hand, the 1st slash's startup, or the 2nd slash's startup) (I also have no troubles going vertically deep for DShield's standards with MAS because the vertical height is a blessing there).

That's the only issue . Great set recommendation Goesasu, I'm proud to be using this set once you mentioned it.
DSpeed + MAS = too good to be true = who needs DJump?

 

[Berserker.]

I also used 2133 by the way. Very good set from my experience

 

[Goesasu]

@Masonomace, @berserker01 Thank you guys.

Since this set (2133) i havent look back not even once. Decisive speed its so fast with awesome horizontal movility allowing more followups than ever; Decisive buster is so strong (19% jab combo and 19% back throw) you can rack up 80-100% damage in about 6 hits; and decisive shield is way harder than regular so it truly helps you to live longer. And they last for 20 seconds!
MAS is what holds the set together allowing recovering with no need for monado jump anymore, nullifying the only true drawback of decisive arts.

This set has helped me a lot. I can honestly say that my game has improved a ton and just for this set.
http://smashboards.com/members/masonomace.169470/

 

[Masonomace]

^ I dig it. (Why does hovering my mouse over your post become a hyperlink that goes to my profile page O_o?)

Anyhow, I'm down to discuss about MAS for my final analysis & wrap it up for discussions sake. After this it would be reflection & what does better against what MatchUps etc..

I'll post my analysis / thoughts about MAS unless it's not needed.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

How many years ago Im talking about Back Slash charge being booty and Decisive Speed being real life.
Im not even mad though, sooner or later everyone sees the light.

That being said, I'll take the math of AAS, but I highly doubt im throwing it with Decisive. I'll use AS and MAS with Decisive, it's tried and true. I am curious of AAS for regular Vanilla arts so I'll be looking back into that.


Part of my stick for MAS is Ikes tempest and getting gimped in the two test runs I did with my cousin. I found more success going low with MAS then I did trying to go in advance with AAS.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

What do you guys think about using different MA's for certain matchups? For example, maybe default is preferred for one MU, but Hyper for another. I'm thinking maybe Hyper Arts and using Smash to quickly edgeguard Mac, but with how light it makes you it's risky. Maybe Decisive or Hyper Shield to avoid all combos from combo heavy characters? I'd like to hear everyones opinion on how different MA's might be better for certain MUs and how that would impact which set we use.

 

[Masonomace]

This a tiny advantage that players may have or not have noticed, but Decisive Speed having slightly higher traction than regular Speed Art feels that much better for OoS game-play. OoS punishing with dash grab, AS, AAS, even MAS if the shield-stun isn't too much. Whatever other options DSpeed Shulk does OoS, he'll be sure to punish it.

Part of my stick for MAS is Ikes tempest and getting gimped in the two test runs I did with my cousin. I found more success going low with MAS then I did trying to go in advance with AAS.

I see what you mean. Tempest's push-back effect is strong even for the advance in AAS. I get mixed results with the advance that either we hit him early & trade damage with the wind-box & reset the situation, or we don't hit him in time & are too late thus getting swept away & waiting for the edge-guard F-air to finish us.

Solutions:

1. Utilize recovering from lower using AS or MAS because Ike's Tempest hit-box from below is poor when compared to the sides
2. Be quick about AAS & advance FAST before he lets it rip
3. Use a Shield Art to reduce the push-back effect dealt to us. AAS combined with a Shield Art could contest the wind (albeit risky)
4. Don't use a Smash Art unless you wanna go skydiving

 

[VentusAlpha]

Using DMArts with AAS? Yes, you can get killed easily if in DSheild, or DSmash for that matter. So then have AAS be used with HMArts and SMArts. I makes the first slash of AAS go higher so if you are caught offstage at a low distance it isn't hard to change to H/SJump and get back on.

Also when it comes to Vertical recovery, true, it doesn't need to be put into math and science to know that AAS has the worst vertical recovery. But that doesn't mean it's not something to be ignored, meaning it has the best horizontal recovery out of the three which I like a whole lot more. That's why AAS is highly regarded. It's a nice change and let's us change a few things up with Shulk.

On the whole it still comes down to personal preference, do you want better vertical or horizontal recovery? For me it's the latter.

And:

What do you guys think about using different MA's for certain matchups? For example, maybe default is preferred for one MU, but Hyper for another. I'm thinking maybe Hyper Arts and using Smash to quickly edgeguard Mac, but with how light it makes you it's risky. Maybe Decisive or Hyper Shield to avoid all combos from combo heavy characters? I'd like to hear everyones opinion on how different MA's might be better for certain MUs and how that would impact which set we use.

I haven't thought about that yet, I'm still trying to unlock everything so I'm not too educated on every character yet and their custom options. And it does create some problems... @ Masonomace has presented a solution to Ike's Tempest windbox but with tournament rules being as they are (counterpicks) how do movesets come into play?

 

[Splash Damage]

Two at most sets for Decisive Arts is fine. You have the 2133 set (I prefer 2233), & then the niche anti-zoning in question of having Decisive Arts or not. One thing I disagree with about the Niche set is Back Slash Charge being there (I'm pretty late on this). From what I've come to find about BSC, it's best used when they're near the ledge area & you take the hit (most likely the projectile) in order to trade with them. Trading damage favorably with the opponent means that you have to Super Armor through the projectile attack & deal the weak damage they take while doing enough knockback to make them slide back or be launched slightly off the stage. That's pretty much the only way this move becomes a deal-maker, but even then you still have to wait for BSC's endlag to finish & by that time the opponent could already be nearby the ledge area over the stage floor from using their doublejump + air speed with an aerial ready (we can put up shield in time but that's moment-based). There doesn't seem to be any real advantage using this move for breaking a zoner so instead I'd opt for BS or BSL. Between the Monado Art customs, I'd either roll with regular or Decisive Arts. On one hand it'd be good to go DArts because you have stronger & prolonged Arts like DJump & DSpeed but on the other hand it'd be loss of an opportunity by being stuck in an Art in case you needed to deactivate it & activate Buster or Smash for zoning the ledge. I'm not saying that DJump or DSpeed can't zone the ledge though. Eh, I don't mind either way. My suggestion (I'm open to counter-arguments against my suggestion):
Niche set - aka Anti-zoning
1122 OR 2112

About HArts. I think HArts & MArts do best with pretty much the same sets. HArts are a preference when we try mixing up the Back Slash or Air Slash customs, so ya just gotta think extreme.

I can definitely agree with this, and I already have some good ideas for HMArt sets. As for the Niche, I'll leave the options open for what people want between 2112 and 1122. My vote goes for 1122, as I've noticed that, once you break their zone, the Zoners change their strategy and go offensive for a while until they're in a favorable position/percent range, then continue to zone. This means that it is imperative to be able to change your strategy in response, and for Shulk that means changing his selected Art, something Decisive can't do. However, Decisive could certainly overwhelm their zone with DSpeed, so I'll keep the option open.

(Disclaimer:referential section not in order of usefulness)
Critical sets
1113
3113
2113
Preferential sets
1123
1313
1213
2133
3123
3213(variant of the 1213 set, BSL selected due to the higher offensive capabilites, especially shield damage with HBuster)
Niche set
1122 (2 votes)/2112
(Cast your votes for the Niche pls)