Shrine Maiden of Paradise ~ Reimu Hakurei (Touhou Project)

gavtel

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Dec 1, 2019
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Roy already used the "Seals the Deal!" tagline in his trailer, so what would Reimu use?
Here's some:

"Reimu Needles Her Way In" / "Reimu Persuades the Competition"

"Reimu Exterminates the Competition"

"Reimu Has the Last Word"

"Reimu Resolves the Incident"

Then again the last one sounds like a news article, rather than a Smash tagline...
 
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http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20..._ultimate_dlc_fighter_in_recent_japanese_poll

I know it doesn't amount to much - or to anything at all - but if it was up to this poll and we excluded all characters that are either already represented in Ultimate, have their franchises represented as well, might be competing with another in the list for a company slot (Dante/Monster Hunter), is apparently out of the running (Sora) and every single 4th party, Reimu would just barely get into the pass.
 

Rikarte

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http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20..._ultimate_dlc_fighter_in_recent_japanese_poll

I know it doesn't amount to much - or to anything at all - but if it was up to this poll and we excluded all characters that are either already represented in Ultimate, have their franchises represented as well, might be competing with another in the list for a company slot (Dante/Monster Hunter), is apparently out of the running (Sora) and every single 4th party, Reimu would just barely get into the pass.
While it's interesting to get an insight on what the Japanese of the fanbase wants, the poll had a pretty small sample size so it really doesn't say that much.
 

Prince777

REIMU AND KOS-MOS FOR SMASH!
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songokuthegreat
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Hey y'all, long time no see!

I've been quite Inactive on the boards lately but I've been lurking and appreciate the conversation that's been happening as of late.

Though, this is probably not the best time to be too joyful considering the morbid news that I'm about to share...about 30 minutes ago, it was reported that Sakurai suffered a health scare as he was excersising at the gym. His passing out is associated with fatigue and dehydration.

https://gonintendo.com/stories/356257-sakurai-suffers-a-health-scare-passes-out-while-at-the-gym

He likely hasn't been getting enough rest as he should, coupled with a lack of water in take. I'm hoping that this doesn't lead to any major health issues or something more devastating.

He should be in good hands, but my prayers go out to him.
 

Wrathful_Scythe

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I mean, doing keto and overdoing it in the gym while dehydrated is a pretty bad idea. Then again, something similar happened to me as well while I was dieting. Though I didn't collapse, I just blacked out for a second and had to sit down for 10 minutes.

Don't know why he would put his body under so much stress with his work being tiring as well. Its not like he is overweight. Keto in general is just... well, I don't like it. There are easier and healthier methods to regulated your weight. When it comes to weight loss, slow and steady is the way to go if nothing important is on the line.
 
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Yeah, together with Night of Nights and U.N. Owen Was Her. The holy trinity of 2010 youtube, invading everyones recommendation lists. In conjunction with the IOSYS flash animations, a new breed of Touhou fans was cultivated.

Fond memories.
Ah yes, my introduction into this wide wacky world.

Tis a shame though that half those that were exposed did nothing but enjoy the content laid out before them, probably got into the backgrounds a bit and the lore, but then didn't even play the games.

I'm slacking a bit myself, though, then again that's pretty much the majority of my backlog as well...
 

Wrathful_Scythe

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Ah yes, my introduction into this wide wacky world.

Tis a shame though that half those that were exposed did nothing but enjoy the content laid out before them, probably got into the backgrounds a bit and the lore, but then didn't even play the games.

I'm slacking a bit myself, though, then again that's pretty much the majority of my backlog as well...
It is pretty hard to get into the games with so many hurdles in the way, so one should not think less of them if they only enjoy the culture sorrounding Touhou.

Damaku shooter are a niche in a niche, the games are only available in japanese and need a third party patcher to be able to play in english. Availability was also a huge problem for years up until recently, when ZUN decided to release some games on Steam. Also, many will start with EoSD, encounter a multitude of technical problems and might just stop then and there.

I have played though every game (hard 1CC, every shot type/character + extra) from the first PC98 to 15, which was, by the time I got to it, the newest release, in a span of roughly 1 1/2 years. I sucked so bad at EoSD and had a rough time but I grew better step by step with a few breakthroughs here and there. My point: It was more like acquiring a skill than playing a game. Playing through practice stages over and over again to get consistent, planning out routes for when to preempt-bomb and manage resources, learning the ins and outs of a games gimmick... this is not something people are looking for when they are about to get into a game they might deem "not really worth it".

I'd say I'm a huge fan of the series, listening to the same doujin circles I've been listening to for years, still browsing fanart and still amuse myself with old Touhou memes. But, arguably, I am not that much of a fan anymore. I haven't played much Touhou in the last few years. A mixture of lost interest and time constraints. Touhou 17 was a fun game but I only 1CCd the game a few times on normal to see bits of the story. Didn't even finish the extra stage. My skills degraded and I didn't have the drive to improve anymore so I just set it aside. My ancestors look down upon me with shame...

Wait, what was the point of my rambling again...? Ah yes!
Marisa can't be in Smash because her booty-bomb is utterly broken. Look at this ****.
6122xh8dkde41.png


Reimu's chances rise astronomically.
 

zriL

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16
Ah yes, my introduction into this wide wacky world.

Tis a shame though that half those that were exposed did nothing but enjoy the content laid out before them, probably got into the backgrounds a bit and the lore, but then didn't even play the games.

I'm slacking a bit myself, though, then again that's pretty much the majority of my backlog as well...
I don't think you can blame anyone for not playing the games. I'm pretty sure even ZUN wouldn't blame people for that. If people don't play the game, it's because the rest of the content is better than the games, people consume the best stuff, it's perfectly normal. If I want to get someone into Touhou, I wouldn't tell they to play the games first because I know it wouldn't work, unless he already like shmups. I think it's better to play the games later if you're interested in knowing about them.

There are many reasons why the games aren't a good entry point and even doesn't interest established fans :

- A lot of fanmade music is arguably better. Even though some themes still haven't found many arrangements worthy of the orginal in my eyes, ZUN mostly uses instruments that sound cheap, and sometimes you do immediately feel it could sound better. Actually, I think this is the main reason why there is so much fanmade Touhou music, it's because the originals are not perfect, it inspires people to make them better. The other reason is because ZUN still is a genius composer, but maybe not a genius arranger, or maybe he's not willing to put more effort into one piece and he likes going onto another piece. Even though fanmade music can sound better, it's definitely true that it wouldn't exist without ZUN and his work. It's also very possible that many Touhou arrangers are mostly good at arranging and not very good at creating for scratch. That makes Touhou music some kind of ultimate dream-team collaboration between genius artists that wouldn't have happened otherwise.

- Fanmade art is obviously better. But then again, I think ZUN has some kind of talent for making memorable and unique chara-designs. So, similarly to the music, ZUN's art allowed many outstanding artworks to exist, even though himself is pretty bad at drawing. And, a bit like for the music, I don't know if we would have gotten so many fanmade artworks if the original weren't so bad.

- Many fanmade games are much better. As a developer myself, that's not really a surprise because the main games are quite low effort productions from a gameplay perpective, especially when he seems to never rebuild a new engine. Then if you consider that fangames can actually involve more than one person, it's pretty normal that they would be better. Also the main games are kind of stuck is the last century, we still have arcade systems like continues and such, and the games didn't change anything since the first games. I don't know if it's a general shmup issue but this kind of games cannot be very much interesting nowadays. There are way too many good games out there to play average games that actually could have released 20 years ago. But I think this is totally intended from ZUN, I believe he never had any crazy ambition about his games, they are pretty much a canvas for his art. They served mostly as a support for his music but not only that : Touhou is maybe the only games I know where bullets are more about pretty patterns than about gameplay. Sure the challenge is there and ZUN does a pretty good job at balancing the difficulty, but I've always felt the visual effect of spellcards is more important than the actual gaming. So even if his drawing is lacking, he actually cares about visuals, by the way the background UI screen is always very pretty and I don't understand why he can do that. And then, the writing might be very basic, but the world building is actually sometimes deeper than that, but the games don't really show that very well. So, in the end, it seems like gameplay is the last priority for ZUN, so it's not surprising that the gameplay is the least interesting thing, even though it's a game.

- Then, I'm not really interested in fanfics, so I don't know if it's actually better or not. I usually don't like it because it very often feels too serious and dramatic, so it really doesn't fit with the games' atmosphere that is mostly not very serious, almost a bit goofy at times. I wonder if there exists good fanfics that are written more in ZUN writting style. But anyways, it's pretty apparent that ZUN had no big ambitions about story and dialogues, so it's not surprising people won't find the games engaging. And then again, it's think it's very smart of ZUN to do that, because there is something that's worse than a basic story, it's a bad story that tried to be a good story (and many AAA games do that). Again, I believe Touhou would have been less successful with the fans if the story was a bad story rather than being a basic one, also because it lets fans imagine stuff, even though most of the time I'd perfer they do not.

In the end, the games are quite bad and thats why people don't play them. Everything that's good in the games are things that aren't about gameplay (music, atmosphere, world, pretty patterns), but in a game these things will always be held back by the gameplay. If you really want people to play the main games, it's not the people who need to change, it's the games, it's ZUN. I don't even believe he's bad at making games, he probably just doesn't care and he's not willing to commit the efforts needed to make a good game, and it's not completely unreasonable in his position.

I wish ZUN would start a kickstarter to make an ambitious Touhou game, maybe the game of his dreams, not necessarily a shmup. It would totally get tons of support and maybe he would be able to build a great team and make a great game. I wish...
 
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Reimu trailer concept incoming:

*Cross flair intro*
The trailer begins with a Smash invitation letter, sitting in a dark room with naught but three rectangles of light shining from the top of the screen. After a few moments, a creaking sound is heard, and a larger square of light stretches out and envelops the whole letter before a single hand grabs it and pulls it out. A figure with black hair looks down at the letter in their hands in contemplation before turning slightly towards the camera as sword-swinging sounds are heard.

Meanwhile, The Luminary is fighting with a bunch of fairies, battering some with his sword and frying others with Zap spells. The fairies are clearly winning against him until the Luminary casts Bounce to send their projectiles back at them. After resting for a bit, the Luminary walks off towards a strange building off in the distance: a shrine, one that he feels wouldn’t look too out of place in Hotto. He warily walks up to it, curious what a shrine like this is doing in the middle of nowhere. He then hears a power sound before jumping out of the way just in time for some needles to hit the ground where he once stood. He looks around for his assailant before he sees someone: a young girl in a red dress and a long gohei, floating in the air in front of him. She lands on the ground, then with a good stretch, prepares for battle.

REIMU Plays Her Hand!

The trailer then cuts to gameplay, showing Reimu Hakurei, Shrine Maiden of Paradise, who brandishes a Spell Card in front of her before charging offscreen. It then shows her charging towards a Zero Suit Samus with a Super Scope, the projectiles of the gun just Grazing Reimu before she unleashed a pillar of amulets from the ground to launch ZSS. The scene then shows her flight capabilities, whizzing past a floating Peach. Then we see her fighting Marx, who is unleashing his bouncy ball attack. It then shows her mobile zoner playstyle, with an unorthodox projectile game. The trailer then cuts to her stage, Hakurei Shrine, where Yukari, opens many portals to different parts of Gensokyo, showing the large cast of Touhou characters in the process. Reimu then unleashes her Final Smash, Fantasy Heaven, where she unleashes a barrage of rainbow orbs that home in on everyone that isn’t her.

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate X Touhou Project

The Luminary is seen lying on the ground exhausted before Reimu wipes the sweat from her brow. She then sits down in her shrine, a nice cup of tea in her hands before the camera pans up to her Smash invite, hanging from her wall on a plaque.

@ 2018 Nintendo
Original Game: © Nintendo / HAL Laboratory, Inc.
Characters: © Nintendo / Hal Laboratory, Inc. / Pokémon. / Creatures Inc. / GAME FREAK inc. / SHIGESATO ITOI / APE inc. / INTELLIGENT SYSTEMS / Konami Digital Entertainment / SEGA / CAPCOM CO., LTD. / BANDAI NAMCO Entertainment Inc. / MONOLITHSOFT / CAPCOM USA., INC. / SQUARE ENIX CO., LTD. / ATLUS / Microsoft / SNK CORPORATION. / Team Shanghai Alice
 

Wrathful_Scythe

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- Many fanmade games are much better. As a developer myself, that's not really a surprise because the main games are quite low effort productions from a gameplay perpective, especially when he seems to never rebuild a new engine. Then if you consider that fangames can actually involve more than one person, it's pretty normal that they would be better. Also the main games are kind of stuck is the last century, we still have arcade systems like continues and such, and the games didn't change anything since the first games. I don't know if it's a general shmup issue but this kind of games cannot be very much interesting nowadays. There are way too many good games out there to play average games that actually could have released 20 years ago. But I think this is totally intended from ZUN, I believe he never had any crazy ambition about his games, they are pretty much a canvas for his art. They served mostly as a support for his music but not only that : Touhou is maybe the only games I know where bullets are more about pretty patterns than about gameplay. Sure the challenge is there and ZUN does a pretty good job at balancing the difficulty, but I've always felt the visual effect of spellcards is more important than the actual gaming. So even if his drawing is lacking, he actually cares about visuals, by the way the background UI screen is always very pretty and I don't understand why he can do that. And then, the writing might be very basic, but the world building is actually sometimes deeper than that, but the games don't really show that very well. So, in the end, it seems like gameplay is the last priority for ZUN, so it's not surprising that the gameplay is the least interesting thing, even though it's a game.

....

In the end, the games are quite bad and thats why people don't play them. Everything that's good in the games are things that aren't about gameplay (music, atmosphere, world, pretty patterns), but in a game these things will always be held back by the gameplay. If you really want people to play the main games, it's not the people who need to change, it's the games, it's ZUN. I don't even believe he's bad at making games, he probably just doesn't care and he's not willing to commit the efforts needed to make a good game, and it's not completely unreasonable in his position.

I wish ZUN would start a kickstarter to make an ambitious Touhou game, maybe the game of his dreams, not necessarily a shmup. It would totally get tons of support and maybe he would be able to build a great team and make a great game. I wish...
What fangames are you referring to? Compared to the other shmups fans have made, there is not one that I would deem superior to the mainline games in terms of gameplay or mechanics. At least not the ones I know off. The control of the mainline games are tight and snappy, almost every game comes with a unique gimmick and the games seldom feel unrefined or cheap with its bullet patterns. And its not just pretty patterns. The majority of patterns offer a engaging challenge while still being fair. ZUN even manages to make patterns unique to characters and their personality like Junko with her "pure" prescision patterns, Satori copying other spellcards, Satono und Mais double boss fight and many other examples.

The Touhou series is not perfect but even compared to other shmup titans like Ikaruga, Deathsmiles or Mushihimesama, I never had the feeling that Touhou is inferior from a gameplay perspective. Even the point that the games didn't change much, which is debatable as there is a big differnece between say EoSD and HSiFS, is somewhat a subjective point because many people prefer it that way. Not everyone wants big changes in their beloved franchise.

I get your standpoint if we broaden the view beyond shmups but comparing the games to the likes of Luna Nights or Genso Wanderer is tough as the genres are very different and we approach apples and oranges territory.

You say that the Touhou games are "quite bad" from a gameplay perspective but what makes Touhou, as a Shmup, bad? From your post I get more of an impression that you don't like shmups/bullet hell and call Touhou "bad" because you don't like the genre.

Touhou is not unpopular because its bad, its unpopular because the genre itself is unpopular. Inside the shmup genre, Touhou actually does really well.
 
Last edited:

gavtel

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Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
15
- A lot of fanmade music is arguably better. Even though some themes still haven't found many arrangements worthy of the orginal in my eyes, ZUN mostly uses instruments that sound cheap, and sometimes you do immediately feel it could sound better. Actually, I think this is the main reason why there is so much fanmade Touhou music, it's because the originals are not perfect, it inspires people to make them better. The other reason is because ZUN still is a genius composer, but maybe not a genius arranger, or maybe he's not willing to put more effort into one piece and he likes going onto another piece. Even though fanmade music can sound better, it's definitely true that it wouldn't exist without ZUN and his work. It's also very possible that many Touhou arrangers are mostly good at arranging and not very good at creating for scratch. That makes Touhou music some kind of ultimate dream-team collaboration between genius artists that wouldn't have happened otherwise.
With you mentioning the arrangements, I've noticed a pattern ZUN followed in earlier Windows Touhou soundtracks where he always loops an early part of the song at least once, before going onto the build-up to the main melody. I first noticed it with the IN soundtrack from listening to it multiple times across different road trips at night but while typing up this reply, I've realised it applies to Touhou 6 and 7 as well. Don't know whether to consider that lazy arrangement work or creative in a way, due to the fact that he managed to pull that pattern off with such a large number of tracks. Either way, that could be a hint for anybody who wants to try creating original music in the style of ZUN's earlier Windows titles.
 

zriL

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Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
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What fangames are you referring to? Compared to the other shmups fans have made, there is not one that I would deem superior to the mainline games in terms of gameplay or mechanics. At least not the ones I know off. The control of the mainline games are tight and snappy, almost every game comes with a unique gimmick and the games seldom feel unrefined or cheap with its bullet patterns. And its not just pretty patterns. The majority of patterns offer a engaging challenge while still being fair. ZUN even manages to make patterns unique to characters and their personality like Junko with her "pure" prescision patterns, Satori copying other spellcards, Satono und Mais double boss fight and many other examples.

The Touhou series is not perfect but even compared to other shmup titans like Ikaruga, Deathsmiles or Mushihimesama, I never had the feeling that Touhou is inferior from a gameplay perspective. Even the point that the games didn't change much, which is debatable as there is a big differnece between say EoSD and HSiFS, is somewhat a subjective point because many people prefer it that way. Not everyone wants big changes in their beloved franchise.

I get your standpoint if we broaden the view beyond shmups but comparing the games to the likes of Luna Nights or Genso Wanderer is tough as the genres are very different and we approach apples and oranges territory.

You say that the Touhou games are "quite bad" from a gameplay perspective but what makes Touhou, as a Shmup, bad? From your post I get more of an impression that you don't like shmups/bullet hell and call Touhou "bad" because you don't like the genre.

Touhou is not unpopular because its bad, its unpopular because the genre itself is unpopular. Inside the shmup genre, Touhou actually does really well.
I was mostly talking about non shmups game. I've always considered Touhou games a decent shmup game compared to the others, but definitely not the best, even shmup fans would tell you that Touhou isn't that interesting, as a shmup game. It's always been a decent shmup because the others aspects were better (mainly music and patterns). But for the gameplay, I mostly hear about Dodonpachi and Ikuruga and I think it's mostly because of their scoring system that's much deeper. They also have more polished visual effects and graphics, which is normal, it's not the same budget. But when you compare games objectively, you must ignore their budget. Ikaruga also have this very smart mechanic with the black and white colors. In my opinion, there is one thing Touhou has always been the best at, it's pretty patterns. But as I said, it's more about visuals than about gameplay, many pretty patterns actually offer a very classic challenge so it doesn't really make the game more interesting.

I don't completely agree that Touhou isn't popular because the genre isn't popular. I believe the genre is unpopular because Touhou and the other shmups haven't change for 20 years, so they are relatively worse game compared to 20 years ago. I'm not even sure there are other recent shmup games. Nowadays, the competition is almost non existant so I'm not sure it's relevant to try comparing Touhou with other shmups.

So I still think Touhou can't be popular because the game aren't good enough. Yes the genre doesn't help but it's the genre that doesn't help itself. Clearly ZUN didn't try much to make better games, especially recently. He made them slightly different but he didn't try to make them better (a bit like what Pokemon does since gen4, except they have no excuse...). Actually he did try, with fairy wars and the photo games. I didn't play them but they looked more interesting, or at least more fresh, especially fairy wars. He also tried with Touhou 9, it didn't work well but I don't think it was a bad idea. Doing versus would be a way to make the genre more appealing. Also I liked what he did with Touhou 15, I liked the checkpoint system, and this is the only reason why I actually finished the game. I wish he'd continued with this game mode, it's clearly much more modern, even though it needed some adjusting.

I don't think the genre is doomed to be unpopular, it's certainly possible to make it more interesting, I could think of ideas to make it more interesting. Heck, I would even make a Touhou game if I had the time and motivation, and a graphic artist xD

Anyways, I was mostly talking about non-shmup games. I do believe you can compare games from different genre, there must be some reasons why shmups aren't popular, and it's very easy to find one when you notice that shmup haven't changed for 20 years, while others genres have completely changed, and even new genres have emerged. So I think it's normal some fangames from other genre would be better games, or at least more popular, it's also because they are made as more modern games.
For example, the fighting game spinoffs are certainly more popular games, even though I prefered the grounded ones (soku forever !). Many platformers are also more appealing, the best example would be Luna Nights but there were others. There are also decent RPGs, I know I played dozens of hours on Genius of Sappheiros, I certainly coudn't do that on the main games. Those are only examples from the top of my head, I don't even look for Touhou games so there must be many others. Of course, if you are a shmup fan, you might like the main games better, but there are also nice shmup fangames, I know of Danmaku Festival games and Touhou CtC. They are very similar in gameplay so I don't know if they are more or less interesting, but they do look a bit better.

Finally, I doesn't matter much since the fans who didn't try the main games probably don't play other fangames as well. I believe most fans discover Touhou through music, art or videos, mostly fanmade, So those are more important than fangames for this issue. But I still think the main games aren't the best entry point if you want a game as entry point. The games aren't good enough for today standard, and this is indeed partly due to them being classic shmups. But if something could have made the genre evolve into something popular, it's definitely Touhou, because it has great influence. But it didn't happen.
 

Wrathful_Scythe

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I was mostly talking about non shmups game. I've always considered Touhou games a decent shmup game compared to the others, but definitely not the best, even shmup fans would tell you that Touhou isn't that interesting, as a shmup game. It's always been a decent shmup because the others aspects were better (mainly music and patterns). But for the gameplay, I mostly hear about Dodonpachi and Ikuruga and I think it's mostly because of their scoring system that's much deeper. They also have more polished visual effects and graphics, which is normal, it's not the same budget. But when you compare games objectively, you must ignore their budget. Ikaruga also have this very smart mechanic with the black and white colors. In my opinion, there is one thing Touhou has always been the best at, it's pretty patterns. But as I said, it's more about visuals than about gameplay, many pretty patterns actually offer a very classic challenge so it doesn't really make the game more interesting.

I don't completely agree that Touhou isn't popular because the genre isn't popular. I believe the genre is unpopular because Touhou and the other shmups haven't change for 20 years, so they are relatively worse game compared to 20 years ago. I'm not even sure there are other recent shmup games. Nowadays, the competition is almost non existant so I'm not sure it's relevant to try comparing Touhou with other shmups.

So I still think Touhou can't be popular because the game aren't good enough. Yes the genre doesn't help but it's the genre that doesn't help itself. Clearly ZUN didn't try much to make better games, especially recently. He made them slightly different but he didn't try to make them better (a bit like what Pokemon does since gen4, except they have no excuse...). Actually he did try, with fairy wars and the photo games. I didn't play them but they looked more interesting, or at least more fresh, especially fairy wars. He also tried with Touhou 9, it didn't work well but I don't think it was a bad idea. Doing versus would be a way to make the genre more appealing. Also I liked what he did with Touhou 15, I liked the checkpoint system, and this is the only reason why I actually finished the game. I wish he'd continued with this game mode, it's clearly much more modern, even though it needed some adjusting.

I don't think the genre is doomed to be unpopular, it's certainly possible to make it more interesting, I could think of ideas to make it more interesting. Heck, I would even make a Touhou game if I had the time and motivation, and a graphic artist xD

Anyways, I was mostly talking about non-shmup games. I do believe you can compare games from different genre, there must be some reasons why shmups aren't popular, and it's very easy to find one when you notice that shmup haven't changed for 20 years, while others genres have completely changed, and even new genres have emerged. So I think it's normal some fangames from other genre would be better games, or at least more popular, it's also because they are made as more modern games.
For example, the fighting game spinoffs are certainly more popular games, even though I prefered the grounded ones (soku forever !). Many platformers are also more appealing, the best example would be Luna Nights but there were others. There are also decent RPGs, I know I played dozens of hours on Genius of Sappheiros, I certainly coudn't do that on the main games. Those are only examples from the top of my head, I don't even look for Touhou games so there must be many others. Of course, if you are a shmup fan, you might like the main games better, but there are also nice shmup fangames, I know of Danmaku Festival games and Touhou CtC. They are very similar in gameplay so I don't know if they are more or less interesting, but they do look a bit better.

Finally, I doesn't matter much since the fans who didn't try the main games probably don't play other fangames as well. I believe most fans discover Touhou through music, art or videos, mostly fanmade, So those are more important than fangames for this issue. But I still think the main games aren't the best entry point if you want a game as entry point. The games aren't good enough for today standard, and this is indeed partly due to them being classic shmups. But if something could have made the genre evolve into something popular, it's definitely Touhou, because it has great influence. But it didn't happen.
I wouldn't say its the developers fault if a genre falls. Many did in the last few decades for a multitude of reasons. The gaming industry is an ever changing organism after all. Interesting for me would be how you would make Shmups more mainstream friendly without changing it to something different. Maybe something similar what Tetris 99 did and jump on the battle royale bandwagon?

From what I've gathered over the past decades, mainstream has become all about accessibility (and hype). There are few exceptions but this rule has proven itself. Many genres have sunken to niche status because the beginner hurdle was just to high for the generic player. Arena Shooter with their many movements options, fast paced action and required map knowledge are a lot harder to get into then your CoD or Battlefield so the former is almost non-existent anymore. The same for RTS, with Starcraft 2 as its last notable entry. Interest faded and people got more interested in the similar yet different genre: the Moba. The only RTS that make some headlines nowadays are remasters like Warcarft 3 or Command and Conquer. Those genres had games that tried other approaches but didn't garner any interest because people weren't interest in the genre anymore. There are a lot of factors at play here of course, so its hard to blame it on one or two things but I'd say genres just fall out of fashion without them being able to change that.

In regards to Touhou doing better, sure. Touhou "could" be better. It "could" have saved the genre and "could" have soared higher than every other game in its genre before. But it didn't. ZUN improved bit by bit with his games but stayed as an indie developer. I would love to know how Touhou would look like today if ZUN had gone full corporate when Touhou was at its peak, somewhere between 2006 and 2010. But that could just as well have failed spectacularly and may be now just a footnote of something that once was.

For me, I am satisfied with the games and how they are progressing. And so are many others. Are the games a good starting point for new fans? It depends if the person is interested in this kind of game. The famous "bad apple" pv sparked my interest in Touhou but the flame only turned ablaze while I was playing EoSD. Through Touhou I took a liking to the shmup genre and got to other games like Mushihimesama and Deathsmiles.

I am aware that I am very much biased when it comes to Touhou. The game has flaws but calling the gameplay bad and only redeemed by its music and characters is something that rubs me the wrong way.
 
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I don't know how possible it is, but that has made me think what if Reimu got incredibly hard classic mode battles but you win if you time out? If you can attack and get an early KO then you get to save on a lot of danger, but just dodging until the end and doing a pacifist route would be just as viable?

May make more sense for spirit events... But I think it could be a cool way to play up her bullet hell origins with the right opponents.
 

gavtel

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I don't know how possible it is, but that has made me think what if Reimu got incredibly hard classic mode battles but you win if you time out? If you can attack and get an early KO then you get to save on a lot of danger, but just dodging until the end and doing a pacifist route would be just as viable?

May make more sense for spirit events... But I think it could be a cool way to play up her bullet hell origins with the right opponents.
And to make it worse, some of the battles have Bob-omb Festival on them (you can survive if you last long enough but the Bob-ombs will start dropping, making it even harder to dodge)...
 

Ayumi Tachibana

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Supposed doujin leaker appeared again saying this will be the last.
I checked his other posts from old days and his interests and hangouts are the same as the doujin leaker before.

http://rosie.5ch.net/test/read.cgi/famicom/1583890875/
https://www.logsoku.com/r/2ch.sc/famicom/1583890875/
I don't think you can see it via logsoku yet since the thread is still on going.

Translation.
Make of it what you will.

Post 493
This is not a leak just me being delusional so don't be mad and listen.
To get straight to the point, it's gonna be Reimu and Geno.
And poor Marisa was Geno (doesn't make sense I know).
Come to think of it, they're all Square Enix related.

Post 498
So this is my last leak (fantasy).
For all I care ☆

Post 501
Laser beam and star danmaku show up and aim for Reimu in the mushroom forest.
This has to be a reference to Marisa right?

Post 504
That's it everything was my fantasy so if they came true then that's just because my intuition and ability to read atmosphere of the vicinity was good enough.

Post 512
If I'm being honest at last, was Reimu really that much of a character to join Smash?
 

Sc_Ev0lution

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So, if this is really the doujin leaker, is he saying all he posted was all speculation since the beginning?

And, when he says "Laser beam at Reimu in a mushroom forest" is that also a fantasy or is it a reference to a real thing?
 

cosmicB

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Yeah, I'm a little confused on that. Is it basically an admittance that the leak was just speculation yet people for whatever reason latched onto it as a leak?
 

Wrathful_Scythe

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If they'd make a trailer and show of Reimu being attacked by Marisa's distinctive attacks, only to hoax me and show off Geno.... oh boy that would get the salt flowing in me. Not one to hate on characters I don't care about but that would actually make me loathe Geno.

Thankfully, it was just another fake leak. Such is the way it goes.
 
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Perhaps this newest thing is a case of reverse psychology.

Notice how the doujin leaker is saying that it's just a "delusion". Often times than not, people would shut down people saying "this is a leak", but he's admitting himself to being deluded into believing Reimu and Geno are in Smash. He calls it a "fantasy", a fiction that he felt compelled to share. However, he claims it's a delusion and a fantasy so people would be more inclined to think it's real. It's all an act of self-deprecation, all for the sake of drawing more and more belief into the equation.

...nah, just kidding, I have no friggin' clue at all what the leaker is talking about...
 

perfectchaos83

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I'm not really sure how to take those posts to be honest. It's vague as ****. However, the only thing I think I can take away from this is that he does seem to have a reason to believe they will be happening (How he would think Geno is happening is beyond me) due to his statement of intuition and reading the atmosphere.

Beyond that... We'll just have to wait and see.
 

Ayumi Tachibana

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He constantly shows up and says that his leaks are all just his fantasies so never believe them especially after the music list leak yet he posts those kind of stuffs time to time.
He seems to be the same guy who was once a known leaker in Kyoukai boards so that's the only reason to holds him up really.
But I don't think he is in a position to know anything about Geno or able to watch reveal trailers so yeah.
 

Exiliify

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I need to clarify something very important here, there is a big difference between the actual doujin leak itself and what Ayumi is referring to. The Doujin Leak itself didn't begin until after the song list leak happened.
Example of the timeline of things that support Reimu's inclusion as a fighter for FP5

November 2018: Sakurai confirms DLC FP1 has been decided. Rumors about doujin circles in Japan composing Touhou music started to appear within the same month.
January 2019: Grant Kirkhope asked to do arrangement of Banjo-Kazooie song, indicating original composers may be on board. This falls in line with the rumor doujin circles composing music for smash due to Nintendo allowing original composers to compose arrangements for them.
March 2019: ZUN's interview doesn't break NDA, states he wants Touhou in for smash
April 2019: PS4 port for AoCF announced, leaker also leaks AoCF before it was officially been announced for the switch, Port for switch is announced a week later in May. Same leaker also hinted at potential rumors about Reimu/Smash and doujin circles being involved with music. Same rumors as before in Nov 2018
E3 2019: Erdrick aka DQ Hero and Banjo revealed for smash. DQ is the biggest RPG in japan whose legacy rivals that of final fantasy. Due to Persona having a legacy and SMT as well, indicates the FP1 may focus on characters whose is known in Japan for their massive legacy and popularity. Banjo may favor western fans however, his legacy is associated with Nintendo on the N64 and decent popularity in Japan as well.
September 2019: Investigation into Nicalis reveals mismanagement over its company practices including racism comments among other things. Nicalis is one of big names behind Cave Story. This alone deconfirms Quote as Cave Story rep and indie rep for future DLC mainly post FP. Cave Story is the other indie with some legacy and influence within the genre
Latest Direct: Sans confirmed costume, this confirms that no other big name indie characters other than Reimu can be a fighter in FP1. Terry revealed during the same direct suggests the FP1 entirely focuses on characters from series with massive legacy within their respective genres. DQ Hero and Persona also hints at this. Since Sans is a costume, Undertale was confirmed by Toby Fox the creator of the game to be heavily inspired by games like Touhou. To add more to doujin circle rumor and Nintendo contacting others to compose music, Toby composed the Megalovania theme in smash. So this also makes it possible that ZUN himself could compose original music for smash.
Earlier this month: The interview with ZUN back in march is made public. Also the leaker that leaked AoCF in april also just leaked that the song list and also confirmed that the doujin circle rumor was still happening. Song list is included as well from one doujin circle. This possibly hints that ZUN may actually be composing music for smash and the fact that Touhou is infamous for its music also suggests we could be getting a lot of remixes mainly of doujin circles. Also the leaker specifically states that it was for smash.

Although the leak could be fake, hopefully this summary of timeline for a few hints that point towards Reimu being DLC will help people understand why me and a few other supporters believe she is the fifth fighter. If she isn't we still think she will be a fighter soon post FP.
This was the initial timeline that began my journey to find what soon became the doujin leak. I later provided the Reimu for Smash discord an updated timeline with more information gather mainly from here. The updated information is what initially got the doujin leak going and around that time I gave it the name Doujin Leak.

Due to the amount of information I gathered from here I had no choice but to make a powerpoint slideshow that contains said information. With additional information from here, the newcomer thread, statements from Sakurai made during directs/showcases, and his column, I kept the slideshow updated as best I could while also clarifying certain aspects relating to the rumors, what the leaker originally posted, and with new developments. I also had to take caution including what supports everything contained in the slideshow and the rumors especially going forward.

I still maintain the slideshow and try to keep it up to date as we speak. Note that it will continue to be updated until the final fighter for Ultimate is revealed or Reimu/Touhou fighter rep is revealed. Will also say that Doujin Leak now is much larger with more information than contained on the original infograph. I will provide the link to the slideshow later, currently working on clearing things up with it and waiting to see if any additional information regarding Fighter 6 is revealed soon.
 

Guritsu

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I think you guys are being too quick to jump the gun here. Doujin leaker's been pretty open about what posts of his are speculation/delusions and what parts are actual "news" (look at the posts where he fantasized about Reimu having Yukari as part of her moveset for instance). It looks more to me like a wonky translation rather than him outright trying to imply Reimu is deconfirmed. I mean, he straight up says at the start it's his delusion, is it not obvious that the post is just him fantasizing about his ideal reveal trailer with Reimu/Geno and there being a reference to Marisa in it?

Y'all jumping the gun too quick to doompost again, if he was actually debunking everything he'd previously said he'd have surely mentioned it, unless you guys now think he's suddenly also as big of an insider that he's actually seen Reimu and Geno's reveal trailers. This doesn't detract from the leak at all, if anything him having a final fantasizing post before dropping off makes it seem more like he still believes Reimu will be in but doesn't want to risk blowing his cover anymore, most likely due to the doujin leak actually gaining some traction in Japan.
 
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zriL

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To me it only sounds like his recent comments are fantasies, but it doesn't say anything about what he said before. Here, he's talking about intuitions, his specific list of tracks couldn't be an intuition, it was too specific. Also, in the doujin leak, he never implied the music was for Reimu in smash, so his last comment doesn't contradict that.

Anyways, I don't think this leak was very strong in the first place. The only thing that was able to make Reimu actually likely is ZUN declaring that he wants it, that was the only thing she needed.
 
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