Shrine Maiden of Paradise ~ Reimu Hakurei (Touhou Project)

Wrathful_Scythe

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I didn't mean Reimu herself would sell passes. The selling point is her being a pick that is outside of the current boundaries of DLC fighters, mainly because Touhou is indie, also from a new genre, even being a girl sells passes at this point.
Joker did the same with FP1 while he wasn't hugely popular as a character, he was also kind of niche (a bit like Terry). But he was a good first pick because he was the most out there pick of the 5.
The first pick doesn't really need to sells passes by itself because it can sell passes for every character people think there could be in the pass.
Reimu isn't outside the current boundaries, though. She checks all marks of being implemented. It's just that she, as a character, isn't popular enough.
Sure, Persona as a franchise is kinda niche but not Persona 5. It hit like a bomb comparatively and is hugely popular.

Joker created a lot of hype due to various circumstances and I don't see that happeng for Reimu. I would even expect contempt from many people as some "unknown anime girl no one cared about" gets chosen as the first entry. Not even the gender fanatics (being a very vocal minority) can change that.

The first pick doesn't "need" to sell passes and Nintendo has shown time and time again that they don't always follow the most popular route. Still, I don't see Reimu as FP6. I kinda don't see her in the pass at all but thats my pessimissm speaking.
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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Consider the following: the first non-veteran DLC character for 4 was :ultryu:, a fairly big deal.

The first post-:ultpiranha: character for this DLC was :ultjoker:, bit less of a big deal but still noteworthy enough within hardcore/Playstation circles to the point that he wasn't seen above showing up in the VGAs.

Every single character reveal pattern of any sort, has always started with at least one character that enough people generally care about.

At most I would expect Reimu towards the middle of the pass, assuming ZUN isn't particularly difficult to track down and negotiate with from the start.

Edit: Fixed. Damn, I keep mixing them up.
 
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SneakyLink

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Consider the following: the first non-veteran DLC character for 4 was :ultcloud:, a fairly big deal.

The first post-:ultpiranha: character for this DLC was :ultjoker:, bit less of a big deal but still noteworthy enough.

Every single character reveal pattern of any sort, has always started with at least one character that enough people generally care about.

At most I would expect Reimu towards the middle of the pass, assuming ZUN isn't particularly difficult to track down and negotiate with from the start.
1. :4ryu: came before :4cloud:
2. I do expect Reimu as 9 10 or 8 in this pass. Assuming she's in of course
 

Sc_Ev0lution

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At most I would expect Reimu towards the middle of the pass, assuming ZUN isn't particularly difficult to track down and negotiate with from the start.
Considering 1. ZUN has stated he's willing to put Reimu in smash and 2. Polygon managed to get invited to Touhou HQ, Nintendo should have no problem if they take initiative.
 

zriL

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Reimu isn't outside the current boundaries, though. She checks all marks of being implemented. It's just that she, as a character, isn't popular enough.
She definitely is outside of the current boundaries by being indie. Just like Snake/Sonic pushed the boundaries to 3rd party, Joker pushed it to 3rd party not existing on Nintendo, Reimu could push it to Indies.

Currently, only hardcore fans believe in indies chances, if there is an indie to start the pass, people will expect more indies in the pass. Even though I think it would be very likely to be the only indie in the pass if there is one. And if the first pick is not indie, I think indie characters are much less likely in the rest of pass. Basically, indie character would be first or nothing.

Similarly, Joker was the only one with no Nintendo legacy in FP1.

Of course, this is just a pattern, it's a pattern that makes sense for Nintendo but they can always do whatever they want. Anyways, patterns are the only things we can discuss using logic and the elements we have.
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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Any amount of Nintendo legacy will do, even if it's something as absurdly small as cameos in a few spin-offs. :ultcloud:

Seeing as Persona Q2 on the 3DS was advertised as far back as September 2018 (not to mention the eventual Phantom Strikers news reveal), it's possible that :ultjoker:'s deal was being worked out in advance to make sure he'd fit the criteria (even though SMT as a whole has had several entries and spin-offs on Nintendo hardware anyway).

Compared to those, there's no worry about Reimu not having anything to work with, since Touhou has a fair few entries on the Switch. I don't even think it was even being put into question in her case.

What it all comes down to is whether or not they get around to asking for her.
 
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gavtel

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As Sakurai mentioned back in the Terry direct, it's all about how fun the character is and not the popularity. In that sense, Reimu COULD end up being in there, considering how vastly different her moveset would likely be from existing fighters. Do I necessarily think she'll be first? No (especially with the Bayonetta / Ness texture glitches a while back (Bayonetta's texture not changing while using the hair attacks / Ness' eyes not being visible)) but the possibility is still there.

A bit off-topic from the Smash discussion but the Genso Skydrift second tournament's coming up on the 28th (it gets livestreamed to the illuCalab YouTube page, if you just want to watch it (the VOD for the first one's on there already)). If you win it, you can pick a character to get into the game (the winner of the first tournament picked Alice, as a reminder). Competitors also get an alt colour for set duos. The rules are listed in the link on this Steam page (including the rules for what characters can be requested, how to enter, etc): https://steamcommunity.com/games/1065260/announcements/detail/3221702421016801118
 
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zriL

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Any amount of Nintendo legacy will do, even if it's something as absurdly small as cameos in a few spin-offs. :ultcloud:

Seeing as Persona Q2 on the 3DS was advertised as far back as September 2018 (not to mention the eventual Phantom Strikers news reveal), it's possible that :ultjoker:'s deal was being worked out in advance to make sure he'd fit the criteria (even though SMT as a whole has had several entries and spin-offs on Nintendo hardware anyway).
I know but then again, it's not really about the fact, but more about what people think of it. Because of Joker, people did redirected their expectations because they wouldn't have thought Joker was possible in the first place. In reality, very few people will know about Joker actually existing on Nintendo in a spinoff a few month before the reveal.

Also I don't think Cloud's case is really comparable to Joker's. Cloud is the best rep for FF, which was on nintendo before FF7, so it made a lot of sense to include him even though he hadn't appeared himself on Nintendo. Yes I know they also did the spinoff trick before his reveal, but it's really just an excuse, he didn't need it to justify his inclusion as a gaming icon.

Joker is different because Persona main games never were on Nintendo. You need to go back to SMT to find a Nintendo legacy, and i think it's a stretch to consider them the same series at this point. Also, Joker is nowhere near Cloud's fame.


Compared to those, there's no worry about Reimu not having anything to work with, since Touhou has a fair few entries on the Switch. I don't even think it was even being put into question in her case.
I never doubted that, especially since Joker happened. Still, if we were to gauge Reimu's strengths and weaknesses, Nintendo legacy is one of Reimu's weakest argument, a few fangames only recently on Switch is pretty weak as a presence on Nintendo.

What it all comes down to is whether or not they get around to asking for her.
Since ZUN stated last year that he wanted to get her into Smash, it's fair to assume he went himself to ask Nintendo about it. He maybe even already asked at the time of the interview.
 
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F. Blue

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imo if that sponsor gets revealed and it's not Square Enix, that's curtains for this leaker's credibility.
 

zferolie

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imo if that sponsor gets revealed and it's not Square Enix, that's curtains for this leaker's credibility.
Not sure if it would be good or bad for touhou in gerneral if SE was the sponsor... they can be great at times or complete assholes other times to their creators
 

Wrathful_Scythe

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I just hope that ZUN didn't manuveur himself into something too big for him to handle should things go south. While he may have 2 decades of experience, he is still a single developer. A lot of publishers suck major ass and Square Enix, while not the worst of them, isn't that great either.

I'll try to stay positive however and look forward to what the future might bring. More support for indie developers to bring us more gems like Luna Nights, a higher budget for mainline games to allow localization and further polish, ports of older games for current systems.... potential for improvement is certainly there.

Oh, and there is this game called "Smash bros". or something. Having someone from Touhou there might be nifty, I think.
 

Sc_Ev0lution

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Eh, he never said it was SE. He said he believes it to be SE based on his own intuition.
That's such a vague statement tho. I understand this guy frequently mixes info and speculations, but still.

What reason would he have to think SE? What makes SE different as a sponsor than Taito or Capcom or Namco or even Nintendo?
 

MisterMike

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Hey, so I got a few questions for you all regarding Reimu and Touhou:
  1. Why do you want Reimu in Smash?
  2. When did you first realize you wanted her in Smash?
  3. Have you played any of the games? If so, which ones?
  4. How do you imagine Reimu would play? More specifically, what would her special moves and Final Smash be? From what I've gathered as someone who's never played the games and is only passively familiar with the series, Touhou is a bullet hell SHMUP where your main method of offense is shooting energy balls and using special moves. Personally I have no idea how you'd be able to impliment a SHMUP character into a platform figher like Smash, and I don't see much variety in being able to shoot energy pellets.
  5. From 0% to 100%, how likely do you think she is to get into Smash? (Kind of a dumb question to ask given what thread this is, but still.)
  6. What are all of the leaks/rumors surrounding her? I know of the alleged music leak thing, but if there's anything else feel free to let me know.
I look forward to your answers. Thanks in advance.
 

GolisoPower

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Hey, so I got a few questions for you all regarding Reimu and Touhou:
  1. Why do you want Reimu in Smash?
  2. When did you first realize you wanted her in Smash?
  3. Have you played any of the games? If so, which ones?
  4. How do you imagine Reimu would play? More specifically, what would her special moves and Final Smash be? From what I've gathered as someone who's never played the games and is only passively familiar with the series, Touhou is a bullet hell SHMUP where your main method of offense is shooting energy balls and using special moves. Personally I have no idea how you'd be able to impliment a SHMUP character into a platform figher like Smash, and I don't see much variety in being able to shoot energy pellets.
  5. From 0% to 100%, how likely do you think she is to get into Smash? (Kind of a dumb question to ask given what thread this is, but still.)
  6. What are all of the leaks/rumors surrounding her? I know of the alleged music leak thing, but if there's anything else feel free to let me know.
I look forward to your answers. Thanks in advance.
1) Indie games don't have playable representation aside from some Mii Costumes (Sans and Cuphead), and neither are Danmaku games. Reimu seems to fit the bill for both.
2) I was only slightly knowledgeable about Touhou, but it wasn't until I played EoSD that I realized that Reimu would be perfect!
3) As I said, I played a bit of Embodiment of Scarlet Devil, as well as fiddling around with the training mode of Scarlet Weather Rhapsody.
4) Reimu would be a highly-evasive glass cannon whose ability to survive would be unrivaled. Hakurei Amulet would be her Neutral B, and can you can change its trajectory, too. Side B would be Yin Yang Orb, which has the same properties as Meloetta's Relic Song (Bounces off screen boundaries). Up Special would be her jumping off of a floating wall. This has a second downward attack, much like Ike and Cloud, but she can invert this before the move comes out. Down Special would be Dimensional Rift from SWR. Final Smash would obviously be Fantasy Seal, which releases massive rainbow projectiles that home in on opponents.

As for gimmicks, I see her having two. The first being that her secondary jump entirely replaced with a flying mechanic that lasts twice as long as Peach/Daisy's float and has free range of motion within a 2-Bowser radius. The second would be that she has two hurtboxes, much like Bowser Jr.: a primary hurtbox the size of a White Pikmin that doubles the damage and knockback she takes from attacks, but the rest of her body is covered with the second hurtbox, which makes it so all attacks are automatically Perfect-Shielded to represent Grazing.

5) 80%.
6) To my knowledge, the music thing is the only thing big going on for her.
 

Sc_Ev0lution

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Hey, so I got a few questions for you all regarding Reimu and Touhou:
  1. Why do you want Reimu in Smash?
  2. When did you first realize you wanted her in Smash?
  3. Have you played any of the games? If so, which ones?
  4. How do you imagine Reimu would play? More specifically, what would her special moves and Final Smash be? From what I've gathered as someone who's never played the games and is only passively familiar with the series, Touhou is a bullet hell SHMUP where your main method of offense is shooting energy balls and using special moves. Personally I have no idea how you'd be able to impliment a SHMUP character into a platform figher like Smash, and I don't see much variety in being able to shoot energy pellets.
  5. From 0% to 100%, how likely do you think she is to get into Smash? (Kind of a dumb question to ask given what thread this is, but still.)
  6. What are all of the leaks/rumors surrounding her? I know of the alleged music leak thing, but if there's anything else feel free to let me know.
I look forward to your answers. Thanks in advance.
1. I've been a big Touhou fan for a while and would like to see it represented in smash for a variety of reasons; at the top the list the series music and sheer novelty. As for Reimu specifically; I'd much prefer Marisa to get in, purely on personal taste, but when I got serious for backing Touhou in smash I decided to put my weight behind Reimu fully behind her as she is Touhou character #1. Frankly, the fact I can even say that means Reimu has etched a decent place in speculation

2. I voted for Reimu (among others) in the 2015 official Smash Poll, but I didn't consider her a serious contender after the Ultimate teaser in spring 2018.

3. I've played a few Touhou games, less than I'd like to admit. I think something like half a dozen, including the fighting games; EoSD, IN, SA, ULiL, AoCF, HSiFS iirc. Of those, I've only beaten 14.5 and 15.5, guess I'm a scrub. I've also played several fangames.

4. Funnily enough I see this question a lot, both from people genuinely curious and those trying to stir the pot, and I assume it's because they don't know about the fighting games. Touhou has 6 official/canon fighting games, 3 1st generation ground fighters that play like a traditional fighting game, and 3 2nd generation air fighters that have an up and down jump. While Sakurai wouldn't steal a moveset wholesale, between them they provide plenty of inspiration for moves and animations. Regardless, Reimu has a plethora of weapons (gohei, ying-yang orb, ofuda, needles) to build a moveset of more than just shooting, or at the very least vary what is being shot (I mean, it worked out for Mega Man).
In my mind, Reimu would have similar movement to the mainline games: not too fast but with good precision and acceleration. Most of her normals are gohei swings with a few kicks. Her neutral b shoots a ying-yang orb that bounces on the ground, you might be able to angle it. Her side b she throws ofuda in a small cone in front of her. Her up b is the air dash from the grounded fighters: she can go in two angles, like Pikachu's quick attack, and while is doesn't do damage it is immune to projectiles. Her down b is kinda up in the air for me, there's a lot that could go here. To mix things up from what I usually see in mock-up movesets, I'll go with her teleport kick from AoCF.

5. It varies. So much is unknown, you're left to take a leap of faith. Given this is it and the characters have been decided, I'd say 35%.

6. Aside from innumerable 4chan text "leaks" the doujin rumor is probably the most legitimate "inside info" in Reimu's favor, but it grows less likely by the day. It started almost a year ago iirc. imo it probably started as an inside joke taken out of context, but that's just my gut so I'll leave it there.
 

Blankiturayman

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Hey, so I got a few questions for you all regarding Reimu and Touhou:
  1. Why do you want Reimu in Smash?
  2. When did you first realize you wanted her in Smash?
  3. Have you played any of the games? If so, which ones?
  4. How do you imagine Reimu would play? More specifically, what would her special moves and Final Smash be? From what I've gathered as someone who's never played the games and is only passively familiar with the series, Touhou is a bullet hell SHMUP where your main method of offense is shooting energy balls and using special moves. Personally I have no idea how you'd be able to impliment a SHMUP character into a platform figher like Smash, and I don't see much variety in being able to shoot energy pellets.
  5. From 0% to 100%, how likely do you think she is to get into Smash? (Kind of a dumb question to ask given what thread this is, but still.)
  6. What are all of the leaks/rumors surrounding her? I know of the alleged music leak thing, but if there's anything else feel free to let me know.
I look forward to your answers. Thanks in advance.
1. I really like Touhou, the idea of a character from that series getting into Smash is amazing, and well, while with Touhou's varied cast, you'd probably have a wide array of characters to pick from it to want in Smash (like Marisa; man, I can only imagine her magic moveset), but despite that, usually the protagonist comes to mind. That aside though, Reimu herself is really cool too. Given her movesets in the fighting games, I think she could be very fun to play, and again, just having the series in something as big as Smash, where there's a lot of other franchises I already like, would be amazing.

2. To be honest, about a year ago I started actually thinking about it. Before that, it was more so "that'd be cool, but man, no way it'd ever happen". Though with the wide variety of picks the first Fighters Pass got, I started thinking that maybe, juuuust maybe, they could go for a certain shrine maiden.

3. Most of them minus the PC-98 ones (that's the first 5 ones, I only played the first). Though, a lot of them were on short bursts, admittedly... Up until now, I've beaten 6, 7, 8, 10.5, 12.3, and 14.5. 3 of those are fighters, lol. I guess I just like them. I've played a couple fangames too though.

4. Well, there's a lot of fan-movesets already, but I'll try to make a small one while switching it up a bit.
In reference to you dying from just one bullet in the mainline games, I'd imagine she'd be a lightweight character. Normal attacks would mostly be punches and kickes and attacks with her gohei.
Side B: Throwing a series of ofudas towards the opponent. Can be charged, upon full charge the ofudas become bigger (from 10.5/12.3).
Neutral B: (I know this one's used a lot, but I think it fits) Reimu throws a Yin-Yang Orb, it bounces around the stage, and can be launched around by any fighter. Upon contact from being launched it causes damage, knockback depending on the strength of the launch.
Up B: Reimu gains flight for a bit, think like Pit's recovery in Brawl, but with a bit more mobility, and an added feature, while she's flying, she can go through projectiles (Also from 10.5/12.3). Physical attacks get her though. Of course, flight causes no damage towards opponents.
Down B: Reimu forms a pillar of light around her with an ofuda card, causes high damage and knockback, but it leaves her defenseless for a bit afterward. (Also from 10.5/12.3).
Final Smash: I agree with most movesets I've seen that it'd be Fantasy Seal. Reimu traps the opponent(s) with an ofuda card, and then proceeds to barrage them with orbs of light that cause a massive explosion. Just to add to it, after that's done, Marisa shows up out of nowhere and Master Spark's them.

5. It constantly fluctuates, but I'm gonna say 40%. As much as I'd like it, it doesn't seem too likely. Especially with how these next characters are the last. ZUN's on board with it though! (As are most devs with their characters, lol, but it was honestly a surprise to see ZUN be fine with it at the time.)

6. Well... all I know of is the doujin leaker, and rumors, which are connected to the music leak you mentioned. I haven't heard of many else, and to be honest, I'm not too sure about them. It could be, it could be not; I guess we'll see.
 

Rikarte

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Hey, so I got a few questions for you all regarding Reimu and Touhou:
  1. Why do you want Reimu in Smash?
  2. When did you first realize you wanted her in Smash?
  3. Have you played any of the games? If so, which ones?
  4. How do you imagine Reimu would play? More specifically, what would her special moves and Final Smash be? From what I've gathered as someone who's never played the games and is only passively familiar with the series, Touhou is a bullet hell SHMUP where your main method of offense is shooting energy balls and using special moves. Personally I have no idea how you'd be able to impliment a SHMUP character into a platform figher like Smash, and I don't see much variety in being able to shoot energy pellets.
  5. From 0% to 100%, how likely do you think she is to get into Smash? (Kind of a dumb question to ask given what thread this is, but still.)
  6. What are all of the leaks/rumors surrounding her? I know of the alleged music leak thing, but if there's anything else feel free to let me know.
I look forward to your answers. Thanks in advance.
  1. Touhou is a very important series to me. It accompanied me through my high school days and introduced me to a lot of new people, some of which I still call friends to this day. Personal bias aside: I think she'd bring a lot of new stuff to the table. Her genre is completely unrepresented as far as fighters go, she has a lot of history and she would come with banger music. There is a lot of potential here.
  2. She's always been somewhat of a pipe dream to me but I only started really wanting her last year.
  3. Yes, all main games from 6-17, most of the fighting games and a couple of fangames.
  4. I posted a moveset on the last page:
    I like this one made by NobleClamtasm a lot.
    View attachment 265752
    Despite being a very simple Shmup there is a lot of canon source material to pull a moveset from.
  5. 10-20%. Reimu checks a lot of boxes. Her series has the legacy, popularity and impact to be worthy of a spot on the roster. However, she does have one giant problem: Localization. So far, only one official game has had an official translation and that was just a spin-off. You can buy some of the main titles on Steam but you will still need a fanmade English patch if you wanna know what's going on. Outside of that, some fangames have been localized and are available on Switch.
  6. All of them are bs imo. With how secretive Nintendo has been regarding Byleth I don't think they would let anything slip out this early. Same goes for any other leak. Not buying anything.
 

Lyncario

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Hey, so I got a few questions for you all regarding Reimu and Touhou:
  1. Why do you want Reimu in Smash?
  2. When did you first realize you wanted her in Smash?
  3. Have you played any of the games? If so, which ones?
  4. How do you imagine Reimu would play? More specifically, what would her special moves and Final Smash be? From what I've gathered as someone who's never played the games and is only passively familiar with the series, Touhou is a bullet hell SHMUP where your main method of offense is shooting energy balls and using special moves. Personally I have no idea how you'd be able to impliment a SHMUP character into a platform figher like Smash, and I don't see much variety in being able to shoot energy pellets.
  5. From 0% to 100%, how likely do you think she is to get into Smash? (Kind of a dumb question to ask given what thread this is, but still.)
  6. What are all of the leaks/rumors surrounding her? I know of the alleged music leak thing, but if there's anything else feel free to let me know.
I look forward to your answers. Thanks in advance.
1. Touhou is a series that I love so much, I would even say that it's the series that I love the most. In top of that, Reimu is one of my favorite Touhou character, so it wuold be so amazing for me.
2. Pre-release, when she was on a fake leak. I told myself that it was impossible, that there was no way, but it would be so amazing, and so, I realised how much I wanted her in Smash.
3. I played most Touhou games, execpt PoDD, and the photographic games.
4. The ultimate keep away/Zoner character who is incredibly stron while airborn, or as I sometime joke with my brain, air Belmonts, even if I think that she would be closer to Link. But yeah, long disjoints, good projectiles, good air mobility, and an omnidirectional float, but she would also be extremly light. Her neutral B could be evil piercing needles, side B could be homing amulets, down B could be a slow ying yang ball used for traps and set ups, like in AoCF, and Up B could be her Ascension kick. I think that she culd also have a gimmick of grazing, giving her graz points that turn into spell cards, like Cloud limits, and so she would have Fantasy Seal, Evil Sealing Circle, Omidirectional Dragon Slaynig Circle, and Sky Conquering Wind God Kick in her normal moveset, leaving Fantasy Nature as her final Smash, which is her ultimate attack in canon.
5. 35%, though I generaly make those rating lower than most peoples, only Dante and Hayabusa are over 50% imo.
6. There was only the Doujin leak, and it's pretty dead in the water now.
 

Brazillian Cara

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I share a lot of my answers with what was posted so far, so I will focus on adding new details:

1. Indies representation, shoot'em up/bullet hell representation, music and the chance of bringing a series with such an interesting world and lore into the mainstream spotlight - and with this, the chance of the games being properly localized and brought to consoles. I also really sympathize with the series' creator (ZUN) and his efforts to make Touhou have a greater reach while remaining open to the community and all fanworks, and I genuinely want to see him succeed. That said, Reimu herself is a fairly interesting character ability and personality-wise, so her main character priority wouldn't be an issue (compared to some others), though Marisa would be great too if she was picked instead.
2. During a somewhat recent official interview (published late last year, conducted during the first semester), while talking about getting more people to know about Touhou, ZUN mentioned - unprompted - about how it would be great to see Touhou characters in Smash Bros; if the translation is any indication, it was worded vaguely enough to not sound like a deconfirmation or breach of NDA. Anyway, the knowledge that the creator was entirely on-board with the possibility (something that many felt was the biggest potential obstacle to Touhou in Smash) is what definitely got me to really start hoping.
3. My experience with the games specifically is rather lacking but not unsubstantial; I have played four of the main games - IN, PoFV, DDC (the only one I've beat, on Easy), and WBaWC (just the demo), one of the fighting games (HM), some fangames and a couple of Pokémon hacks.
4. What everyone has already said. I feel she would fill a zoner niche in Smash (though properly adjusted to actually being fun to play as while not breaking the game).
5. 40-50% - I'm fairly optimistic, but I wouldn't be surprised or too disappointed if she didn't make it (even as a mii or a spirit). In fact, I feel that most people in this thread - compared to what people tend to say about support threads in general - are fairly realistic in regards to her chances.
6. The Doujin leak is old enough to have escaped Nintendo's recent actions regarding leakers, but it does lose credibility with each passing day with no updates. Aside from that, Touhou is said to have recently gained a "sponsor X" (speculated to be Square, Taito or Nintendo, among others), which has a good chance of being potentially related to a presence in Smash.

Hopefully this helps give you a better idea about her situation!
 

Narp

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 30, 2019
Messages
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Without going into specifics on a hypothetical moveset, there are a bunch of gimmicks in the shmups that could be translated into Smash, like grazing, having a tiny center hitbox, flying and shooting, focusing, having limited bombs, death bombs to cancel knockback if we make the specials consume bombs, and extends/bomb refills by doing enough damage to the opponents. And that's without borrowing ideas from the fighting games.
 
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gavtel

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
30
Hey, so I got a few questions for you all regarding Reimu and Touhou:
  1. Why do you want Reimu in Smash?
  2. When did you first realize you wanted her in Smash?
  3. Have you played any of the games? If so, which ones?
  4. How do you imagine Reimu would play? More specifically, what would her special moves and Final Smash be? From what I've gathered as someone who's never played the games and is only passively familiar with the series, Touhou is a bullet hell SHMUP where your main method of offense is shooting energy balls and using special moves. Personally I have no idea how you'd be able to impliment a SHMUP character into a platform figher like Smash, and I don't see much variety in being able to shoot energy pellets.
  5. From 0% to 100%, how likely do you think she is to get into Smash? (Kind of a dumb question to ask given what thread this is, but still.)
  6. What are all of the leaks/rumors surrounding her? I know of the alleged music leak thing, but if there's anything else feel free to let me know.
I look forward to your answers. Thanks in advance.
1. During high school I got into the series and besides one other indie series (which was popular at the time), was the biggest help for me getting to know a group of people I still consider friends in later high school (after my entire high school was moved into another one in my second to last year). My most wanted prior to Ultimate was a Castlevania rep but now that I have them, besides Reimu the only picks are retro ones (Bill and Lance, Firebrand, etc) or series I've gotten into later on (Nightmare). Since we don't have a top-down shooter rep in Smash Bros, I think it's only appropriate that we should get one and since most other bullet hells out there are either space ship ones (which would be way too big, even by Ridley standards) OR clones of Touhou, I think it's appropriate that Touhou gets it's proper place in Smash. Especially with how long the series has been going on for and the overall effect it's had on the gaming industry / on fanworks in general. Plus the music of Touhou's great and hearing a few remixes would be cool.

2. While I've wanted her for a while, I can't remember the exact point. I've always thought the idea would be cool ever since I got into the franchise (I was more focused on Castlevania getting in at the time to really think all that much about it) but didn't think it was all TOO plausible until Ultimate. So probably during the build-up to Ultimate.

3. Touhou 6-11, 15 and the demo for 16, where I've only 1CC'd Touhou 7 on Easy with Sakuya A (yeah, I know "Easy Modo?~" but I have cleared it on Normal with continues). Didn't get around to playing 12-14, the full game for 16 or 17 due to university keeping me busy, on top of driving lessons, attempts to make my own games for a while (prior to university). While I would have given the fighting games a go, I suck at fighting games (even though I play SoulCalibur casually, I'm not great at it (relying on a few select combos and not bothering to check the rest in the menus) and when I gave Street Fighter 2 a go on the SNES Classic I got my butt handed to me by Dhalsim right at the start of the game). It's part of why I prefer Smash to those games, as the long combos are harder to remember without putting in a ton of time into trying the character out / reading and memorising (which you shouldn't have to do anyway).

4. Reimu tends to use amulets and needles as her main two projectiles, though she also uses large yin-yang orbs for more heavy attacks. She also uses her gohei (the wand like thing she carries around) to smack opponents around, in addition to a dash move she uses in the fighting games (allowing her to dodge right past projectiles). I think she would play as a sort of rush-down character for the melee attacks / yin-yang orbs (you need to be close for them to hit), while using the projectiles to zone. Pretty much an all-rounder but with a smaller hitbox (in the games she has a smaller hitbox than other characters) and possibly being a bit on the lighter side. Her Final Smash would be her most iconic spell card: Fantasy Seal (where a circle of amulets surrounds her, creating a beam of light vertically to damage opponents in the fighting games or homing in for the bullet hell entries). As for her Specials, it's a bit hard to guess, as there's a lot of options. They could have her using her flight powers / ying-yang orbs to boost herself up higher (though the latter might be more of a down special with a meteor effect) or have another character help her out like Yukari using her gaps to teleport Reimu higher up (maybe as a nod to how in Touhou 11, you can use her power to move from one side of the screen to the other). As for the rest, I'm not really sure what they would pick exactly, as again I haven't actually played the fighting games (only seen videos of them).

5. Somewhere between 30% and 50%. There's a lot of bigger name characters outside of the indie sphere and with how the indies have been getting treated after the creators ask for them to make it in, I'm worried that Reimu might meet the same fate that the other indies have (though in her case, the Mii costume thing wouldn't work at all, since we ALL know they're just going to have a Mii face on her, which is just ugly).

6. Outside of the ones mentioned on here, I haven't heard anything else.

Edit: Also as a bit of an addition to number 1, I've been collecting plushies of every Smash rep I can (official ones, no bootlegs, where I'm only missing Ganondorf (only plush of him is the rare Ocarina of Time one), Falco (for some reason he's a lot rarer than Fox and Peppy when it comes to World of Nintendo plushies), Ken (waiting for Stubbins to make one so it matches in style with my Ryu, even though I've seen plushies of him around) and K Rool (who much like Ganondorf only has a few rare plushies around for him)) and I also bought a bunch of Taito Touhou plushies (Reimu, Marisa, Patchouli, Sakuya, Remilia, Alice and Koishi, with Flandre potentially on the way to finish the set (not bothering with the Bkub ones)). If Reimu gets in, I don't have to buy another plush to have her in my collection.
 
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Wrathful_Scythe

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 10, 2019
Messages
242
Location
Germany
Hey, so I got a few questions for you all regarding Reimu and Touhou:
  1. Why do you want Reimu in Smash?
  2. When did you first realize you wanted her in Smash?
  3. Have you played any of the games? If so, which ones?
  4. How do you imagine Reimu would play? More specifically, what would her special moves and Final Smash be? From what I've gathered as someone who's never played the games and is only passively familiar with the series, Touhou is a bullet hell SHMUP where your main method of offense is shooting energy balls and using special moves. Personally I have no idea how you'd be able to impliment a SHMUP character into a platform figher like Smash, and I don't see much variety in being able to shoot energy pellets.
  5. From 0% to 100%, how likely do you think she is to get into Smash? (Kind of a dumb question to ask given what thread this is, but still.)
  6. What are all of the leaks/rumors surrounding her? I know of the alleged music leak thing, but if there's anything else feel free to let me know.
I look forward to your answers. Thanks in advance.
Already got some good answers here but I might throw my thoughts in as well.

1. Seeing that I kinda like Touhou I want to see it flourish and get as successful as it can get. Smash is perfect for that. Getting Reimu in Smash would make Touhou's popularity skyrocket for a short time and while only few might care, and even less actually stick around and become Touhou fans, every bit helps. Its always nice to see new fans joining in and and get excited.

Additionally, Reimu actually brings something unique to the table in her playstyle and would be fun to play if handled correctly. If she gets in, I'll have to switch my main.

2. I believe someone brought it up on the smash reddit and I kinda ended up here. Before that I didn't even consider it because it was so oulandish but considering everything, Reimu actually has a chance. A tiny one for sure but even a spark can set ablaze.

3. I've beaten (1CC + extra) every game that ZUN has released under the Touhou banner, most of them on hard. That also includes the PC98 games, the spinoffs and the figthing games.
Additionally to that, I've played and beaten many fangames. My favorites are Luna Nights, the Genso Wanderer series, The Koumajou Densetsu series and DynaMarisa 3D.

4. A light character with superior aerial movement. There are tons of possibilities and others have already gone into details. I could see her passive being a smaller hitbox on projectiles or attacks in general but this would have to be tuned very carefully as to not make her either broken.

5. Hard to give percentages but if I had to give one based on my impression: 10%
There are a lot of characters that are still possible and a lot more popular than Reimu. Seeing that Nintendo is the one deciding on the characters, I'd say her chances are slim. Of course there are a lot of unknown factors to be considered but my feeling tells me that Reimu is pretty unlikely.

She does however check all the marks for a playable. Fun and unique playstyle, visually and thematically different from the rest of the cast, indie-rep, has games on the Switch (technically fangames but only few know that anyway) and a legacy that dates back to the 90s.

6. Nothing to add here.
 

Rikarte

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
440
Location
Germany

Barrubo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
105
Inever doubted that, especially since Joker happened. Still, if we were to gauge Reimu's strengths and weaknesses, Nintendo legacy is one of Reimu's weakest argument, a few fangames only recently on Switch is pretty weak as a presence on Nintendo.
Actually it's not just fangames, Touhou has actually had a few crossovers with nintendo characters. One of them is Reimu, Sayaka and Marisa meeting Kirby and the gang.
 

zriL

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
112
Actually it's not just fangames, Touhou has actually had a few crossovers with nintendo characters. One of them is Reimu, Sayaka and Marisa meeting Kirby and the gang.
I'm not sure how much this is worth, rhythm games always crossover with a million things because of the music. And Touhou has had a dominating presence on almost every japanese rhythm game for ever. So that would actually be surprising if Touhou wasn't in such a game, Nintendo or not.

It's not like we don't know if Nintendo knows about Touhou or not. It's obvious they do. It would be surprising if any japanese video game company doesn't know about Touhou. ZUN always made sure not to interact with big companies for a very long time, but it's pretty sure many were interested in Touhou for years because there should be a market. And if there is a market there is money to be made, but nobody knows how much.

Now since ZUN expressed his wish for Touhou to be represented in smash, we know the ball should be on Nintendo's side. But, until there is a reveal, we won't know if they are willing to take that risk and choose Touhou over something probably safer.

edit : also that game is a Namco game, not Nintendo, if that changes anything.
 
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Powerman293

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 6, 2015
Messages
704
Sorry, if this is a big misconception, but wouldn't there be severe legal issues using Remiu given the whole licensing system?
 

BernkastelWitch

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 20, 2019
Messages
360
Sorry, if this is a big misconception, but wouldn't there be severe legal issues using Remiu given the whole licensing system?
There wouldn't be. ZUN is incredibly laxxed on Touhou copyright, hence all the remixes, doujins, fangames, and fanimes that exist. I can argue he'd be one of the easier, if not the easiest person for Sakurai to hypothetically make a deal with when it comes to Third Party characters.

As long as the fanwork outright states it's a fanwork then it's alright in ZUN's book.
 

Narp

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 30, 2019
Messages
30
Sorry, if this is a big misconception, but wouldn't there be severe legal issues using Remiu given the whole licensing system?
Smaller independent game developers and musicians are given a pass. Nintendo however would most definitely go through the proper channels to include a Touhou character, not that ZUN would be very hard to negotiate with anyway.

Not sure how licensing works for the figurine manufacturers and music games though. ZUN isn't one to milk his franchise, but I imagine he's collecting enough royalties from the big companies for him and his family to live comfortably.
 

Powerman293

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 6, 2015
Messages
704
I ask this because Nintendo is legally VERY cautious. I would doubt Nintendo would even want to sign a contract with ZUN out of unfounded fear that Zun could change the licensing rights and demand them for money. Remember, they didn't take a FREE fan localization of Mother 3 due to liability issues.

And I'm not sure how that would work with each country outside Japan.
 

Wrathful_Scythe

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 10, 2019
Messages
242
Location
Germany
Sorry, if this is a big misconception, but wouldn't there be severe legal issues using Remiu given the whole licensing system?
There are Terms of Use for Touhou, which are pretty straightforward.

Generally, if you just want to release stuff as a Doujin creator (your own small platform or at a convention) you can use Touhou pretty much however you want as long as you don't use the games assets. If you go commercial, you've gotta ask him.

Fairly easy and shouldn't be a problem. Nintendo just needs to get in touch with the guy.
 

zferolie

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
4,316
Also, it seems ZUN is not for Crowdfunding Touhou games. I remember the smash touhou game that was gonna be made the got a lot of flack for japanese fans and then ZUN asked to take it down... but I think there were other things going on too
 

Lasatar

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 27, 2018
Messages
189
Location
Australia
ZUN has expressed interest in Touhou characters appearing in Smash before. If Nintendo approached him, he'd let them. The only thing he wants is for as many people as possible to know of the series, and something like Reimu in Smash would be a massive advertisement for it.
 
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Dextructor28

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 30, 2019
Messages
13
Hey, so I got a few questions for you all regarding Reimu and Touhou:
  1. Why do you want Reimu in Smash?
  2. When did you first realize you wanted her in Smash?
  3. Have you played any of the games? If so, which ones?
  4. How do you imagine Reimu would play? More specifically, what would her special moves and Final Smash be? From what I've gathered as someone who's never played the games and is only passively familiar with the series, Touhou is a bullet hell SHMUP where your main method of offense is shooting energy balls and using special moves. Personally I have no idea how you'd be able to impliment a SHMUP character into a platform figher like Smash, and I don't see much variety in being able to shoot energy pellets.
  5. From 0% to 100%, how likely do you think she is to get into Smash? (Kind of a dumb question to ask given what thread this is, but still.)
  6. What are all of the leaks/rumors surrounding her? I know of the alleged music leak thing, but if there's anything else feel free to let me know.
I look forward to your answers. Thanks in advance.
1. Well, I'm a huge fan of Touhou or so I consider myself. Having Reimu in Smash would be both a great Indie representation and an innovative character, as her kit could be one of the most uniques of the game. The danmaku and fliying abilities open up an absurdly huge range of options for her to join in, from close combat to ranged.

2. It's been a long time, but it wasn't until Ultimate that I have seen her as a serious pick for a character.

3. As many as I could, even though I haven't finished some yet because I'm not too good at danmaku games. Mainly PC98, 6, 7, 8, all the fighting ones and the most recent titles 16, 17 and 17.5. And well, about doujin games, the list is way too long.

4. Probably a light character with mostly ranged movements and a strong focus on aerial movement with really great zoning, then going to a heavy punisher on close combat for so-said zoning. A bit of a jack-of-all-trades that could be the true nightmare of many Smash players if they get her projectiles well enough. Basically what most people said here, ranged zoner with close punishments.

5. Being realistic, around 10~20%, Being ambitious, one thousand percent!!! I don't think she has huge chances, but she does have some.

6. The music leak is as far as I know about recent leaks.
 

3D Dillon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
457
Hey, so I got a few questions for you all regarding Reimu and Touhou:
  1. Why do you want Reimu in Smash?
  2. When did you first realize you wanted her in Smash?
  3. Have you played any of the games? If so, which ones?
  4. How do you imagine Reimu would play? More specifically, what would her special moves and Final Smash be? From what I've gathered as someone who's never played the games and is only passively familiar with the series, Touhou is a bullet hell SHMUP where your main method of offense is shooting energy balls and using special moves. Personally I have no idea how you'd be able to impliment a SHMUP character into a platform figher like Smash, and I don't see much variety in being able to shoot energy pellets.
  5. From 0% to 100%, how likely do you think she is to get into Smash? (Kind of a dumb question to ask given what thread this is, but still.)
  6. What are all of the leaks/rumors surrounding her? I know of the alleged music leak thing, but if there's anything else feel free to let me know.
I look forward to your answers. Thanks in advance.
1. To represent the Indie universe.
2. Since Shantae became a spirit, Reimu took her spot as potential cute female indie rep.
3. A fangame called Azure Reflections. I only played a little bit of it though.
4. Her moves and final smash may come from either the main games or the fighting ones that ZUN had a hand in.
5. 70% because I'm sure after all these other indie series getting represented without getting a fighter in, there's GOTTA be a fully playable character getting in in the future.
6. If she does get in, all those leaks may just be coincidences.
 

zriL

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
112
So they start the pass with an ARMS character. I didn't expect them to start a pass with such a weak pick. In the end, Nintendo really doesn't follow any pattern, even obvious marketing ones.

However, it's not necessarily out of every patterns. I was sure the first pick needed to push the boundaries of past DLC picks, ARMS can actually do that by being a AT/spirit promotion (if it's not a different character). If they follow this pattern, this character would be the only one to be a promotion in the pass. Just like Joker was the only "out there" pick of the pass.
 
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Rikarte

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
440
Location
Germany
So they start the pass with an ARMS character. I didn't expect them to start a pass with such a weak pick. In the end, Nintendo really doesn't follow any pattern, even obvious marketing ones.

However, it's not necessarily out of every patterns. I was sure the first pick needed to push the boundaries of past DLC picks, ARMS can actually do that by being a AT/spirit promotion (if it's not a different character). If they follow this pattern, this character would be the only one to be a promotion in the pass. Just like Joker was the only "out there" pick of the pass.
If our ARMS fighter is supposed to set the tone for this pass I'm expecting more smaller third party and Nintendo characters. It would make sense to go for lower budged characters this time around as SSBU is over a year old and a good chunk of the potential customer base has most likely moved on to other games by now. Other than the fact that one slot is gone now, I don't think this changes much for Reimu's chances.
 

gavtel

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
30
Forgot about it for a bit until late last night but for those of you interested in Gensou Skydrift, the VOD's up for the second tournament. The winner picked Rin to get into the game and there's a screenshot of Alice's model along with a few Flandre and Clownpiece colour schemes, along with the concept art for Alice's in-game artwork being shown off (she was picked by the last tournament's winner to get in) late into the stream (1 hour and 43 minutes in). Here's the link to the VOD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZOK-QRMkoI
 
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