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Shrine Maiden of Paradise ~ Reimu Hakurei (Touhou Project)

Z

zriL

Smash Journeyman
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Feb 7, 2020
Messages
239
If anything, there is one pattern that was further strenghtened with Pyra/Mythra : FP2 seems to be about missed opportunities, rather than completely new stuff. It makes sense they would do that, Smash is 20 years old and they must have had ideas about dozens of newcomers since Melee era. So unless it's about recent characters, FP2 lineup was probably 80% decided at the same time as FP1 or even base-game, it was just not confirmed. So all FP2 characters must have been highly considered for either base-game or FP1 :
  • Min Min : Recent first party, was definitely base game material, and nobody would have been surprised by it, it was the Splatoon of the Switch so it made perfect sense. Maybe it didn't happen because of time constraints or ARMS being too recent for being planned from the start (Ultimate development started in 2015). Plus, Min Min has a weird gimmick and I think it's not easy to develop so that doesn't help.
  • Steve : Most obvious one, it was confirmed that Steve was in the talks for 5 years. He probably didn't happen because of dev constraints, like Min Min. He is also very good DLC material, as most third-party characters, so it makes sense.
  • Sephiroth : Was probably in the talks ever since the inclusion of Cloud, he was definitely base game material, a vilain from an already represented franchise, similar to K. Rool. But just like Steve, as a widely known third party, he is great DLC material.
  • Pyra/Mythra : It was confirmed that XC2 content was intended for base game. Moveset seems rather simple so the reason was probably the one they stated, XC2 being slightly too recent.


This brings several important conclusions, and some potentially important for Reimu :

1 - There is no way FP2 wasn't planned from the beginning, I firmly believe FP2 was 100% happening when the game released, but the content of it wasn't set in stone. The fact they said there was no plans for FP3 actually confirms FP2 was planned ahead, but not FP3. That also means FP3 is still very possible.

2 - When you see FP2, it seems FP1 could be replaced by FP2 and it wouldn't seem as unfair representation, so they were probably all decided at the same time with no particular order because they new FP2 was happening anyways, except maybe for 6th slots of FP2, which might be a "last minute" addition.

3 - The rest of the pass will also be missed opportunities, which means basically two different profiles of characters :
  • (Steve & Sephiroth) : Long standing big characters that were obviously considered but are not yet in the game. Plus probably from already represented companies, because they might not even have done further negociations for FP2. For now, FP2 negociations could have been done at the same time as FP1, because both Microsoft and Square are also in FP1. Base game content probably works too, so I think Capcom is still fine, but Namco and Koei Tecmo are not.
  • (Min Min & Pyra/Mythra) : Characters that were good base game material but slightly too recent, mostly first party, and by extension, any character that couldn't be included in base-game or FP1 for any other reasons. This includes potentially unreleased first party characters, like a new Zelda character (or Pokemon, Metroid, etc), they've already done that with Corrin so it's entirely possible.

4 - It's probably a good thing to be a base-game assist trophy or a spirit, at least for first party characters, but it could be true for third party characters. I think Rayman and Eggman are especially likely examples, because Ubisoft had new content in FP1 (mii costumes) and Sega actually owns Joker.


So where does Reimu stands in this ? At first glance, it doesn't look too good honestly. But there is still a few things in favor of Reimu :

1 - This theory rules out quite a lot of characters, especially Namco and Koei Tecmo ones, but also any other "medium" company like Arcsys or Level5 for example. But it doesn't necessarily rules out indies, because indies means very easy negociations, if any negociations at all. This is pure speculation though, as there is no indie content in FP2 yet. There are also a few exceptions to this rule if we consider mii costumes, because we've got new Bethesda and Marvelous content in FP2 but it would make sense things are done differently for mii costume, this would also rule out Rayman because Ubisoft only got costumes and spirits for now.

2 - The 6th slots of FP2 is really suspicious, it's always looked like a last minute addition to me. A last minute addition would means talks happened between FP1 and FP2. Strangely, in the end I think Touhou is the only thing that would cause a last minute addition, because of the following reasons :
  • For recent first party characters, they should have been able to plan beforehand because games are planned years in advance
  • For recent third party characters, it would need to be a game that buzzed a lot around the year 2018 or 2019, and that's big enough to justify an inclusion, and preferably from a company already represented in Smash. It's very similar to Joker, but I don't see any game that fits, except maybe Nier Automata.
  • ZUN's interview happened in 2019 and implies that talks should have happened around that period if it happened, weirdly the interview was released around a month before FP2 was publicly confirmed, but videos are done at least one month in advance, so maybe this means something.
  • Touhou is the only old franchise that can be considered recent for Smash inclusion, because ZUN would have never accepted any crossover before 2 years ago. It's certain he must have refused a lot of propositions for many projects (even animes and stuff like that), but now he's more open and it's very recent. It's easy to imagine a world where Touhou would have been handled differently and would be much more popular as a result (can't say it would be for the best), and where Touhou in Smash would be as natural as Persona or Fatal Fury, if not more. There is zero franchise on this planet which is in that same situation due to ZUN's peculiar management of Touhou and there are very few other reasons to justify a last minute addition. Persona's situation is different but is still a bit similar, as Persona 5 was much more popular than the previous games, in a way this means Nintendo is open to these kind of characters.

That said, there are still a few other explanations for this 6th slot :
  • They just wanted 6 slots because it's cooler than 5
  • They actually did last minute negociations with a random company because why would they follow patterns xD
  • They didn't really want 6 slots but they couldn't decide between two characters, this probably means more first party characters, because you don't really want to do that kind of last minute choice with third parties.

tldr : missed opportunities, more first party, more spirits/AT, no new companies, not very good for Reimu but 6th slot still good timing for her.
Anyways, 2 slots left means little hope for everyone at this point.
 
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zferolie

zferolie

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
5,002
zriL said:
If anything, there is one pattern that was further strenghtened with Pyra/Mythra : FP2 seems to be about missed opportunities, rather than completely new stuff. It makes sense they would do that, Smash is 20 years old and they must have had ideas about dozens of newcomers since Melee era. So unless it's about recent characters, FP2 lineup was probably 80% decided at the same time as FP1 or even base-game, it was just not confirmed. So all FP2 characters must have been highly considered for either base-game or FP1 :
  • Min Min : Recent first party, was definitely base game material, and nobody would have been surprised by it, it was the Splatoon of the Switch so it made perfect sense. Maybe it didn't happen because of time constraints or ARMS being too recent for being planned from the start (Ultimate development started in 2015). Plus, Min Min has a weird gimmick and I think it's not easy to develop so that doesn't help.
  • Steve : Most obvious one, it was confirmed that Steve was in the talks for 5 years. He probably didn't happen because of dev constraints, like Min Min. He is also very good DLC material, as most third-party characters, so it makes sense.
  • Sephiroth : Was probably in the talks ever since the inclusion of Cloud, he was definitely base game material, a vilain from an already represented franchise, similar to K. Rool. But just like Steve, as a widely known third party, he is great DLC material.
  • Pyra/Mythra : It was confirmed that XC2 content was intended for base game. Moveset seems rather simple so the reason was probably the one they stated, XC2 being slightly too recent.


This brings several important conclusions, and some potentially important for Reimu :

1 - There is no way FP2 wasn't planned from the beginning, I firmly believe FP2 was 100% happening when the game released, but the content of it wasn't set in stone. The fact they said there was no plans for FP3 actually confirms FP2 was planned ahead, but not FP3. That also means FP3 is still very possible.

2 - When you see FP2, it seems FP1 could be replaced by FP2 and it wouldn't seem as unfair representation, so they were probably all decided at the same time with no particular order because they new FP2 was happening anyways, except maybe for 6th slots of FP2, which might be a "last minute" addition.

3 - The rest of the pass will also be missed opportunities, which means basically two different profiles of characters :
  • (Steve & Sephiroth) : Long standing big characters that were obviously considered but are not yet in the game. Plus probably from already represented companies, because they might not even have done further negociations for FP2. For now, FP2 negociations could have been done at the same time as FP1, because both Microsoft and Square are also in FP1. Base game content probably works too, so I think Capcom is still fine, but Namco and Koei Tecmo are not.
  • (Min Min & Pyra/Mythra) : Characters that were good base game material but slightly too recent, mostly first party, and by extension, any character that couldn't be included in base-game or FP1 for any other reasons. This includes potentially unreleased first party characters, like a new Zelda character (or Pokemon, Metroid, etc), they've already done that with Corrin so it's entirely possible.

4 - It's probably a good thing to be a base-game assist trophy or a spirit, at least for first party characters, but it could be true for third party characters. I think Rayman and Eggman are especially likely examples, because Ubisoft had new content in FP1 (mii costumes) and Sega actually owns Joker.


So where does Reimu stands in this ? At first glance, it doesn't look too good honestly. But there is still a few things in favor of Reimu :

1 - This theory rules out quite a lot of characters, especially Namco and Koei Tecmo ones, but also any other "medium" company like Arcsys or Level5 for example. But it doesn't necessarily rules out indies, because indies means very easy negociations, if any negociations at all. This is pure speculation though, as there is no indie content in FP2 yet. There are also a few exceptions to this rule if we consider mii costumes, because we've got new Bethesda and Marvelous content in FP2 but it would make sense things are done differently for mii costume, this would also rule out Rayman because Ubisoft only got costumes and spirits for now.

2 - The 6th slots of FP2 is really suspicious, it's always looked like a last minute addition to me. A last minute addition would means talks happened between FP1 and FP2. Strangely, in the end I think Touhou is the only thing that would cause a last minute addition, because of the following reasons :
  • For recent first party characters, they should have been able to plan beforehand because games are planned years in advance
  • For recent third party characters, it would need to be a game that buzzed a lot around the year 2018 or 2019, and that's big enough to justify an inclusion, and preferably from a company already represented in Smash. It's very similar to Joker, but I don't see any game that fits, except maybe Nier Automata.
  • ZUN's interview happened in 2019 and implies that talks should have happened around that period if it happened, weirdly the interview was released around a month before FP2 was publicly confirmed, but videos are done at least one month in advance, so maybe this means something.
  • Touhou is the only old franchise that can be considered recent for Smash inclusion, because ZUN would have never accepted any crossover before 2 years ago. It's certain he must have refused a lot of propositions for many projects (even animes and stuff like that), but now he's more open and it's very recent. It's easy to imagine a world where Touhou would have been handled differently and would be much more popular as a result (can't say it would be for the best), and where Touhou in Smash would be as natural as Persona or Fatal Fury, if not more. There is zero franchise on this planet which is in that same situation due to ZUN's peculiar management of Touhou and there are very few other reasons to justify a last minute addition. Persona's situation is different but is still a bit similar, as Persona 5 was much more popular than the previous games, in a way this means Nintendo is open to these kind of characters.

That said, there are still a few other explanations for this 6th slot :
  • They just wanted 6 slots because it's cooler than 5
  • They actually did last minute negociations with a random company because why would they follow patterns xD
  • They didn't really want 6 slots but they couldn't decide between two characters, this probably means more first party characters, because you don't really want to do that kind of last minute choice with third parties.

tldr : missed opportunities, more first party, more spirits/AT, no new companies, not very good for Reimu but 6th slot still good timing for her.
Anyways, 2 slots left means little hope for everyone at this point.
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You know i feel the same about alot of what you said, but i feel it strengthens Shantaes chance more thr Reimu for those same reasons. Not saying Reimu has no chance she still does, but Shantae's spirits being last on the list, and the only 3rd party character with an online icon that doesnt have ties to a playable or AT character, makes me really think she was a late consideration
 
KarneraMythos

KarneraMythos

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Messages
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Hey guys, it's been a while since I've posted in this thread. I already left my thoughts and comment in the KOS-MOS support thread in regards to the Pyra/Mythra reveals, so I'll leave a bite-sized version of the post here. Hopefully they haven't been a sore point for any of you.

I for one was overjoyed at the announcement, so much so that I haven't been this excited for a newcomer since Mega Man. Pyra/Mythra were in my old newcomer wishlist banner back in the days of yore, so I ended up getting characters I cherish as much as KOS-MOS.

With all of that out of the way, I'm convinced that KOS-MOS is out-of-the-running for the time being, particularly for the rest of the Pass. Therefore, Reimu has taken her place as my current #1 Most-Wanted character (at least for now).

Although the 5chan leak ended up being false, there remains the supposed Doujin Leak, which hasn't been disproven quite yet. So what do I think might happen if Reimu actually shows up as a fighter in the future? Quite possibly talks on the level of Steve's 5-year negotiation plan, but it isn't fully certain.

However, it's kind of disheartening that Nintendo has yet to even acknowledge the series in any capacity through their official advertisements. Made worse with the fact that Knockout City, a heavily contentious game, got the attention it did with a universally agreed-upon useless and misleading "comedy bit".

I'll be cautiously optimistic about the possibility of seeing her some time in the future, despite how vague and uncertain the road ahead seems to be. We haven't had anymore premier costumes since Cuphead, and the Indie representation has been rather quiet.

For now, I will analyze every leak that comes our way with skepticism, while hoping that any that tickles my fancy end up being true to some extent. Finally, given Pyra/Mythra's recent inclusions over more anticipated characters, it gives me some level of hope that lesser-known characters have a shot in the future.
 
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Sc_Ev0lution

Sc_Ev0lution

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KarneraMythos said:
However, it's kind of disheartening that Nintendo has yet to even acknowledge the series in any capacity through their official advertisements. Made worse with the fact that Knockout City, a heavily contentious game, got the attention it did with a universally agreed-upon useless and misleading "comedy bit".
Click to expand...
I don't think this is a strong negative. As you point out, Directs are a glorified advertisement platform. And just as Newspapers do with ad-space, Nintendo monetizes time slots in their Directs. It's pay to play! So is it any wonder why we're bombarded with EA shovelware? This is probably half the reason for Nindie Directs btw: a space for smaller devs to get the word out with fewer eyes on it and therefore a lower entry fee. That's also why I believe any future appearance of Touhou will be in such an indie direct (Smash appearance excluded ofc).

As for AoCF specifically? Aside from Phoenix (iirc the publishers of 15.5 on Switch) potentially being unwilling or unable to participate in the direct, we're still months out from release. Maybe the game isn't in a presentable state yet? Though I suppose the could take footage from the PC version. Or they may have determined it was too early to start advertising it, that it wouldn't sell as much to start now or it wouldn't be their money's worth to do so. In any case, it was always a bit presumptuous and fanciful to assume since AoCF now has a launch window for Switch it would appear in the upcoming direct. It's not an impossibility, but considering the only Touhou trailer on Nintendo's YouTube page is for Gensou Wanderer more than 3 years ago it was a bit out there. I think people just associated the two since the announcements happened relatively close together. But here's hoping AoCF and Reimu show up next time...
 
SharkLord

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Sc_Ev0lution said:
I don't think this is a strong negative. As you point out, Directs are a glorified advertisement platform. And just as Newspapers do with ad-space, Nintendo monetizes time slots in their Directs. It's pay to play! So is it any wonder why we're bombarded with EA shovelware? This is probably half the reason for Nindie Directs btw: a space for smaller devs to get the word out with fewer eyes on it and therefore a lower entry fee. That's also why I believe any future appearance of Touhou will be in such an indie direct (Smash appearance excluded ofc).

As for AoCF specifically? Aside from Phoenix (iirc the publishers of 15.5 on Switch) potentially being unwilling or unable to participate in the direct, we're still months out from release. Maybe the game isn't in a presentable state yet? Though I suppose the could take footage from the PC version. Or they may have determined it was too early to start advertising it, that it wouldn't sell as much to start now or it wouldn't be their money's worth to do so. In any case, it was always a bit presumptuous and fanciful to assume since AoCF now has a launch window for Switch it would appear in the upcoming direct. It's not an impossibility, but considering the only Touhou trailer on Nintendo's YouTube page is for Gensou Wanderer more than 3 years ago it was a bit out there. I think people just associated the two since the announcements happened relatively close together. But here's hoping AoCF and Reimu show up next time...
Click to expand...
I think AoCF being announced only like a week away from the direct was kind of a red flag. Why announce it then when you're showing it with full gameplay in the big ad blitz a couple days later? It was just too early to show it at the time, I think.
 
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KarneraMythos

KarneraMythos

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Messages
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Sc_Ev0lution said:
I don't think this is a strong negative. As you point out, Directs are a glorified advertisement platform. And just as Newspapers do with ad-space, Nintendo monetizes time slots in their Directs. It's pay to play! So is it any wonder why we're bombarded with EA shovelware? This is probably half the reason for Nindie Directs btw: a space for smaller devs to get the word out with fewer eyes on it and therefore a lower entry fee.
Click to expand...
That's actually a very good point there. They can literally afford to dish out content to sell their products that way, and given the nature of Touhou games, they don't have the same kind of budget to acquire any time-slots. That being said, they've never appeared in any Indie Directs either, unless they were in Japanese versions. I might be misremembering, but someone would have corrected that observation by now I'm sure.

SharkLord said:
I think AoCF being announced only like a week away from the direct was kind of a red flag. Why announce it then when you're showing it with full gameplay in the big ad blitz a couple days later? It was just too early to show it at the time, I think.
Click to expand...
Well... I wouldn't want to contradict myself from an earlier seminar with Rex and Optimism in a certain other thread, but... Until Nintendo actually acknowledges Touhou in the future, I still don't see AoCF getting any sort of accolade even in a more presentable state. As of now, it seems like the company regards Touhou stuff as an even more shovelware sort of product in comparison to the actual shovelware that EA's known to create (though I'd argue there's quite of bit of that with Ubisoft as well).
 
Quidd Dude

Quidd Dude

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Z

zriL

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KarneraMythos said:
That's actually a very good point there. They can literally afford to dish out content to sell their products that way, and given the nature of Touhou games, they don't have the same kind of budget to acquire any time-slots. That being said, they've never appeared in any Indie Directs either, unless they were in Japanese versions. I might be misremembering, but someone would have corrected that observation by now I'm sure.
Click to expand...
Or maybe they think Nintendo directs are unnecessary/expensive considering we have something similar "Touhou directs" that are more frequents than Nintendo directs.

SharkLord said:
Goyouku Ibun is finally getting released soon. Can't wait to see where the plot goes on this one.
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For once, I am very worried about this game, I'm usually excited for new Tasofro games, though I don't like the lastest fighter generation (soku for the win), because they always had high quality standards, much higher than the average Doujin game, but this one actually looks cheap, as if it wasn't Tasofro who made it. It's really worrying to me because these games are canon, and I'm used to Tasofro actually making Touhou canon look better, and with different and cool gameplay.
Maybe it's only the demo, but I think the gap is to big to be fixed at release. So I wonder if the Tasofro team changed or something.
 
Bowser D.X

Bowser D.X

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Part of me really wants her in, but at the same time I have this nagging feeling her in Smash would suddenly put attention on and flood the Touhou fandom. Like having Touhou content in Smash would be so cool, but ugh the idea of Twitter zoomers saying **** like "Cirno is pedobait" gives me a headache.
 
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BernkastelWitch

BernkastelWitch

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Bowser D.X said:
Part of me really wants her in, but at the same time I have this nagging feeling her in Smash would suddenly put attention on and flood the Touhou fandom. Like having Touhou content in Smash would be so cool, but ugh the idea of Twitter zoomers saying **** like "Cirno is pedobait" gives me a headache.
Click to expand...
This stuff is unavoidable no matter who gets in. Hell we had people accuse Pyra and Mythra of all characters of being "pedobait" simply because they're the newest characters right now. We had people complain about Sephiroth because "lol Sword user". We had people complain about Steve because "Minecraft is for kids". We had people complain about Min Min because "ARMs is undeserving". Don't get me started on the FP1 characters.

You legit can't win with these people and they'll disappear or pretend to have wanted them when said character is out for release. That's literally the cycle with Smash character DLCs. Announcement, cheers and salt, salt intensifies, salt disappears upon release. Wash, rinse, repeat.
 
Commander_Alph

Commander_Alph

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I kinda felt like Touhou inclusion in Smash will be both a blessing (since finally the community got recognize by the big gaming community) and a plague (with how many female character in the series it will give the community a headache for how these twitter user misinterpreted their favorite character and most likely start a pointless waifu war.)
 
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SharkLord

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Bowser D.X said:
Part of me really wants her in, but at the same time I have this nagging feeling her in Smash would suddenly put attention on and flood the Touhou fandom. Like having Touhou content in Smash would be so cool, but ugh the idea of Twitter zoomers saying **** like "Cirno is pedobait" gives me a headache.
Click to expand...
Salt is inevitable. Just stay off of Twitter and you should be able to avoid the worst of it.
 
Lyncario

Lyncario

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Bowser D.X said:
Part of me really wants her in, but at the same time I have this nagging feeling her in Smash would suddenly put attention on and flood the Touhou fandom. Like having Touhou content in Smash would be so cool, but ugh the idea of Twitter zoomers saying **** like "Cirno is pedobait" gives me a headache.
Click to expand...
Can't wiat for the Twitter threads about how Tanned Cirno is a blackface and how ZUN and Touhou should both be cancelled despite how the series is very anti-racism if Reimu gets in Smash! :4pacman:
 
Bowser D.X

Bowser D.X

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BernkastelWitch said:
This stuff is unavoidable no matter who gets in. Hell we had people accuse Pyra and Mythra of all characters of being "pedobait" simply because they're the newest characters right now. We had people complain about Sephiroth because "lol Sword user". We had people complain about Steve because "Minecraft is for kids". We had people complain about Min Min because "ARMs is undeserving". Don't get me started on the FP1 characters.

You legit can't win with these people and they'll disappear or pretend to have wanted them when said character is out for release. That's literally the cycle with Smash character DLCs. Announcement, cheers and salt, salt intensifies, salt disappears upon release. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Click to expand...
I mean more like people going after the series itself, long after the reveal trailer. Similar to how the My Hero Academia fandom is a mess. I don't want Zun getting harassed by Tiktok users on Twitter every time he literally does anything.
 
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SharkLord

SharkLord

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Bowser D.X said:
I mean more like people going after the series itself, long after the reveal trailer. Similar to how the My Hero Academia fandom is a mess. I don't want Zun getting harassed by Tiktok users on Twitter every time he literally does anything.
Click to expand...
Does ZUN even have a Twitter account in the first place? Even then, I'm not sure he'd understand what they're saying, seeing as his first language is Japanese and not English. Though, I'm not quite sure how much English he knows, so...
 
Lyncario

Lyncario

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SharkLord said:
Does ZUN even have a Twitter account in the first place? Even then, I'm not sure he'd understand what they're saying, seeing as his first language is Japanese and not English. Though, I'm not quite sure how much English he knows, so...
Click to expand...
Well, I can at least confirm that ZUN has a twitter account.
 
GolisoPower

GolisoPower

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So I've had some thought recently: between SNK's absolute bangton of content in Smash and Steve's five-year negotiation period, how much are you guys willing to bet Reimu'd take just as long, if not longer to make her Challenger Pack?

Sakurai and his team no doubt had to work to develop Terry with his fighting game mechanics and GO! Moves, the KOF Stadium with 20 cameos (each with unique animations), and compose 17 remixes to go with the 33 additional sourced tracks. I don't care if you're a wizard when it comes to making a quantity of quality content, that probably took a good chunk of 2019 to develop.

Then there's Steve. Negotiations took 5 years to make and Sakurai worked his butt off to restructure all the stages to make the Block mechanics work. While not as bountiful as Terry's Challenger Pack, it seems to me that Steve has just as much effort.

This brings us to the possibility I present to you all today: that a Touhou Project Challenger Pack would have taken much longer to produce than the two of these packs combined.

A Touhou Project Challenger Pack, to me, would most likely be a blend of both Steve and Terry. A character with a fairly complex mechanic, although not to the point where controls are completely different like Min Min or to the point a complete and total restructuring of the stages is needed like Steve, combined with another absolute bangton of content to pick from, all with completely original assets made for the character, a stage with more numerable cameos than KOF Stadium, and a music library composing entirely of remixes of the songs we know and love, possibly even entirely original tracks composed by ZUN himself. This is assuming that Sakurai approaches this as a fan making a Touhou fangame and complying with the "no extracting official assets" rule imposed by ZUN himself (Although that might not be applicable in this case, as there's a big difference between fangame developers like Team Ladybug, and global-scale developers like Nintendo).

This is just as possible as it is impossible, as with all speculation. We may not even get a Touhou Challenger Pack in this Pass at all. Support for Smash Ultimate might end without our wonderful shrine maiden of paradise. But if Reimu is one of the final two challengers of this Pass, then I'm willing to bet that what I just presented to you all will be the reason we've waited so long for her.
 
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SharkLord

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GolisoPower said:
So I've had some thought recently: between SNK's absolute bangton of content in Smash and Steve's five-year negotiation period, how much are you guys willing to bet Reimu'd take just as long, if not longer to make her Challenger Pack?

Sakurai and his team no doubt had to work to develop Terry with his fighting game mechanics and GO! Moves, the KOF Stadium with 20 cameos (each with unique animations), and compose 17 remixes to go with the 33 additional sourced tracks. I don't care if you're a wizard when it comes to making a quantity of quality content, that probably took a good chunk of 2019 to develop.

Then there's Steve. Negotiations took 5 years to make and Sakurai worked his butt off to restructure all the stages to make the Block mechanics work. While not as bountiful as Terry's Challenger Pack, it seems to me that Steve has just as much effort.

This brings us to the possibility I present to you all today: that a Touhou Project Challenger Pack would have taken much longer to produce than the two of these packs combined.

A Touhou Project Challenger Pack, to me, would most likely be a blend of both Steve and Terry. A character with a fairly complex mechanic, although not to the point where controls are completely different like Min Min or to the point a complete and total restructuring of the stages is needed like Steve, combined with another absolute bangton of content to pick from, all with completely original assets made for the character, a stage with more numerable cameos than KOF Stadium, and a music library composing entirely of remixes of the songs we know and love, possibly even entirely original tracks composed by ZUN himself. This is assuming that Sakurai approaches this as a fan making a Touhou fangame and complying with the "no extracting official assets" rule imposed by ZUN himself (Although that might not be applicable in this case, as there's a big difference between fangame developers like Team Ladybug, and global-scale developers like Nintendo).

This is just as possible as it is impossible, as with all speculation. We may not even get a Touhou Challenger Pack in this Pass at all. Support for Smash Ultimate might end without our wonderful shrine maiden of paradise. But if Reimu is one of the final two challengers of this Pass, then I'm willing to bet that what I just presented to you all will be the reason we've waited so long for her.
Click to expand...
I feel like that might be just a little unrealistic, honestly. The main reason Sakurai kept putting off Steve was the fact that he had to go back and rewrite all the stages to make the mining mechanic work properly. I'm not sure what Reimu would have anything that would mess with the coding to that level, at least no more than the average fighter mechanic.

I don't think Terry's gimmicks were that hard to come up with either, given that we already have Ryu and Ken to base it on. They already had the command inputs, the dodge move shouldn't be too hard to slot in, and he doesn't even have the tapped/held inputs, either. The Super Specials might take a little extra work to code in, but it shouldn't be too much harder, given that they're only two extra moves and not some wacky special effect that applies to all his moves. Heck, it doesn't even have a meter to fill up; The only trigger is going over 100%.
The KoF Stadium probably took some effort to make, given it works completely different from other stages. The cameos probably did the same as well. Still, it doesn't seem to be too much more than the other stages. Beyond the barriers instead of the blast zone, Terry's pack was just like every other pack, but moreso. Heck, I'd argue Hero would've taken more time, what with the RNG screwery and the massive travelling stage.

As mentioned before, Steve's effort came from the redo of the stages, and Sakurai's hesitancy on doing so. This was completely new, affected every stage, and involved a Western developer. I'm pretty sure this took more effort than Terry's stage. I don't really see Reimu's gimmicks hitting the same level as Steve's.
As for the content, there's nothing that implies Touhou would get that level of content. A large portion of cameos would be believable, but I don't think they would take that much work. If Garreg Mach and Pyra's stage are any indication, they'd be fairly low-quality, and could potentially reuse animations from other stage cameos.
There's nothing indicating every single song would be a remix; That has only happened with EarthBound, which doesn't get much focus anyways. Steve and Banjo also got a lot of remixes, but that's from licensing issues and the songs being unfitting. Touhou has it's fair share of fast-paced songs and remixes that could be reused. I'm not sure if even Touhou would get Smash original tracks, either. It would be great if it did, but I'm still hesitant to invest in such an idea.

I get that this is speculation, but I don't think Touhou would get that much better treatment than any other series. Sakurai wouldn't approach this as a fangame, he'd approach it like what it would be; A DLC pack for Super Smash Bros. I feel like you're putting Touhou up on a pedestal, but at the end of the day, it's just another game series. If Reimu is one of the last two characters, the most likely scenario is that she was simply planned to be one of the last two fighters, and that's about it.
 
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TheTuninator

TheTuninator

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 25, 2013
Messages
2,315
GolisoPower said:
So I've had some thought recently: between SNK's absolute bangton of content in Smash and Steve's five-year negotiation period, how much are you guys willing to bet Reimu'd take just as long, if not longer to make her Challenger Pack?

Sakurai and his team no doubt had to work to develop Terry with his fighting game mechanics and GO! Moves, the KOF Stadium with 20 cameos (each with unique animations), and compose 17 remixes to go with the 33 additional sourced tracks. I don't care if you're a wizard when it comes to making a quantity of quality content, that probably took a good chunk of 2019 to develop.

Then there's Steve. Negotiations took 5 years to make and Sakurai worked his butt off to restructure all the stages to make the Block mechanics work. While not as bountiful as Terry's Challenger Pack, it seems to me that Steve has just as much effort.

This brings us to the possibility I present to you all today: that a Touhou Project Challenger Pack would have taken much longer to produce than the two of these packs combined.

A Touhou Project Challenger Pack, to me, would most likely be a blend of both Steve and Terry. A character with a fairly complex mechanic, although not to the point where controls are completely different like Min Min or to the point a complete and total restructuring of the stages is needed like Steve, combined with another absolute bangton of content to pick from, all with completely original assets made for the character, a stage with more numerable cameos than KOF Stadium, and a music library composing entirely of remixes of the songs we know and love, possibly even entirely original tracks composed by ZUN himself. This is assuming that Sakurai approaches this as a fan making a Touhou fangame and complying with the "no extracting official assets" rule imposed by ZUN himself (Although that might not be applicable in this case, as there's a big difference between fangame developers like Team Ladybug, and global-scale developers like Nintendo).

This is just as possible as it is impossible, as with all speculation. We may not even get a Touhou Challenger Pack in this Pass at all. Support for Smash Ultimate might end without our wonderful shrine maiden of paradise. But if Reimu is one of the final two challengers of this Pass, then I'm willing to bet that what I just presented to you all will be the reason we've waited so long for her.
Click to expand...
I really, really strongly doubt this, to be honest. The things which cause problems for Smash character development are usually one or more of the following:
  • Difficult licensing process
  • Difficult to envision a moveset for the character
  • Unique mechanics creating programming difficulties
None of these apply to Reimu. Licensing could not be easier - all Sakurai needs to do is ring up ZUN and say "Reimu in Smash, you in?" They literally only have to go through one guy and he's already made clear that he'd love for Reimu to be in Smash. Reimu's moveset would inevitably draw heavily upon the Touhou fighting games (they're mainline, so why reinvent the wheel?), which obviates both that difficulty and the possibility of Reimu having some extremely unique mechanic like Steve. If she plays like she does in the fighters she'd be a very straightforward character. I actually think she would be among the easiest possible newcomers to add for all of these reasons.
 
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SharkLord

SharkLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
7,318
Location
Pangaea, 250 MYA
TheTuninator said:
I really, really strongly doubt this, to be honest. The things which cause problems for Smash character development are usually one or more of the following:
  • Difficult licensing process
  • Difficult to envision a moveset for the character
  • Unique mechanics creating programming difficulties
None of these apply to Reimu. Licensing could not be easier - all Sakurai needs to do is ring up ZUN and say "Reimu in Smash, you in?" They literally only have to go through one guy and he's already made clear that he'd love for Reimu to be in Smash. Reimu's moveset would inevitably draw heavily upon the Touhou fighting games (they're mainline, so why reinvent the wheel?), which obviates both that difficulty and the possibility of Reimu having some extremely unique mechanic like Steve. If she plays like she does in the fighters she'd be a very straightforward character. I actually think she would be among the easiest possible newcomers to add for all of these reasons.
Click to expand...
I'd argue that a more original moveset wouldn't be out of the question, but even then it wouldn't take too long to whip up anyways. Sakurai drew up Greninja's moveset in just a day based on concept art alone, if I remember correctly. Some projectiles and gohei strikes shouldn't be too hard to make, be it original or taken from the fighters.

Regardless, we all know the real issue for a Touhou pack would be securing the deals with the beer companies to supply ZUN with a never-ending supply of beer for a solid couple of months :4pacman:
 
Soulor

Soulor

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
62
Ugh the wait for E3 and basically info on the next DLC fighter is gonna be loooong.

Well anyways, remember to take it easy y'all. Speculation and rumors are probably gonna get krazy soon, lol.

Also, have a nice little Touhou video lol. Nothing Yukkuri related this time!


edit: also yay for BRILLIANT DIAMOND and SHINING PEARL.
 
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Quidd Dude

Quidd Dude

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 10, 2020
Messages
89
Location
Chile
Soulor said:
Ugh the wait for E3 and basically info on the next DLC fighter is gonna be loooong.

Well anyways, remember to take it easy y'all. Speculation and rumors are probably gonna get krazy soon, lol.

Also, have a nice little Touhou video lol. Nothing Yukkuri related this time!

Click to expand...
I forgot that those Nazrin videos existed
 
Doremy's smug grin

Doremy's smug grin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 27, 2021
Messages
172
I know I'm late to the party discussing certain songs to use in regards to Reimu's victory theme, but I'm surprised no one thought about using the actual victory theme that was from the 3rd ever Touhou game:


Short, sweet, and gets straight to the point!



On an unrelated note, this is my first time making an account. I specifically made it to contribute to this thread. I may only have the most basic knowledge of Super smash Brothers, I feel like I've known Touhou my entire life. I've been a fan of this series ever since I was a little girl(10~11 yrs old). This series means so much to me, so for something like a character from this series being a fighter in this game would mean so much more. It's been hard growing up with something that almost no one has heard of, so my main reason for this inclusion is to discover more people who enjoy this series like I have. Sorry for getting sentimental, I just feel like my wishes will finally be fulfilled in some way if this actually does end up happening. I wish everyone on this thread the best, FOR REIMU!!
 
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Lyncario

Lyncario

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 3, 2019
Messages
926
Location
Hell
Rikarte said:
It's real, ZUN posted about it on his Twitter:
Click to expand...
HOLY HELL, SAKUYA IS BACK! YES!

...

Huh, sorry for my pop off. Also, Sakuy and Sanae are both playable in a mainline bullet hell game with this one, that's cool.
 
PurpleXCompleX

PurpleXCompleX

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 2, 2015
Messages
154
Location
Germany
NNID
PurpleXCompleX
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