• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Should the stock count be lowered?

What should the stock count be?


  • Total voters
    151

Dr. R.O.Botnik

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
405
After the 2 stock agenda pushers destroyed the "raising the time" thread, I've finally done what they were too lazy to do for themselves; make a proper thread about it.

The armchair warrior circlejerk will begin...now.

P.S. anyone who feels that increasing the time is the better solution, feel free to spend all of your time pushing it and take up half the thread, because this is the place to talk about it, after all.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,550
yes
brawl takes too long
decrease the amount of time it takes actually via stocks instead of artificially via timer

best player still wins under 2 stocks provided the stage list isn't bad
 

Kink-Link5

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
6,232
Location
Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum
I think 2 stocks is alright, but with 8 minutes, that only leaves like 2:20 for each stock. Raise the time to 12, lower the stock to 2, restrict the stage list to around 7 or so and allow one stage ban per player, and the game is much more viable as a competitive sport.

This allows for a decent amount of time per stock (about 4 minutes for each stock), allows each set to be played on what is a more neutral stage list for that particular set, and still allows soft counterpicks like patient MK on PS1, or SV Snake if BF gets banned, while still retaining a decent selection to choose from as long as stages like Lylat and YI:M aren't in the stage list.
 

Dr. R.O.Botnik

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
405
Or just play with Japanese rules. No need to keep ****ing around with the old rules and doing weird, game-changing stuff like 2 stocks when there's already a more competitive ruleset that's tested and proven and fixes most of Brawl's balance issues (inb4 "THIYS IZ 'MURICUH!" or "WE DI'N' DO DAT BAD AT APECKZ!").
 

Ussi

Smash Legend
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
17,147
Location
New Jersey (South T_T)
3DS FC
4613-6716-2183
Lower to 1 stock 4 minutes Bo5, Bo7 finals. aggro play will increase much more as you get an extreme reward for that hard read. (a game win)
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
You're not gonna get away with this Eggman!

Also this thread needs a poll if we are going for the "seperate but equal" discussions. Make it happen.
 

Dr. R.O.Botnik

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
405
TIL that starting off with passive-agressive insults result in calmer, more mature discussion.
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
Can we get a mod to add a poll asking if 1, 2 or 3 stocks is preferred? I hate when polls have only 2 options.
 

popsofctown

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
2,505
Location
Alabama
I got out of the armchair I was sitting in to post this >_>

I don't like altering the stock count at all. It radically changes the game. Change can be good, but the shock involved in the change has to be worth the benefits.

Lowering the stock count drastically buffs ZSS and PT. It nerfs Sheik/Zelda mix players, since transitions between stocks grant the most time for transformation, and lengthier games emphasize move decay more. There would be even less incentive to play Zelda, something I've enjoyed doing at tournaments for kills since the MK ban :/.

It's either a considerable nerf or buff to Lucario players and Wario players, but I don't play the character enough to know.

Kirby and D3 and Bowser can suddenly pull far more SD draws. In the current form of the rule, this means that you might not shorten matches after all if you get bottlenecked by a Kirby or D3 who SD KOs a 2 stock game that normally would have been fought to a win, and then the rematch is SD KOed or stall based.

Rebalancing the game like that when someone has committed a lot of time to a character based on their expected viability is really brutal and you need a very very good reason to do that.
 

Ussi

Smash Legend
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
17,147
Location
New Jersey (South T_T)
3DS FC
4613-6716-2183
Bowser can always stall a few seconds before dying from sideB suicide. PT is the least of our worries in getting buffed. ZSS is another get better with items.. For Zelda/Sheik transform better.. Lucario is unaffected because his max aura requires him to be down 2 stocks in the first place which is not a position you want to be in. Its more a buff as he doesn't have to see his aura weaken too much from a stock lead. I see no difference in Wario.

The main thing about changing stocks is that everything is amplified. Just think of it in other fighting games were the health bar is lessen. Now instead of dying in like 5 combos, you die in 4... But you also kill in 4 combos, which means its just less overall work needed to win but at the same time, you have to play more consistently as you don't have as much leeway to make errors with a smaller health bar.
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
10,050
Can we get a mod to add a poll asking if 1, 2 or 3 stocks is preferred? I hate when polls have only 2 options.
I'm pretty sure regular members can make their own polls (the option would be under Thread Tools), but if not, then I'll do it with the OP's permission.
 

Blue Warrior

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 28, 2011
Messages
174
I hear a 1-stock, 4-out-of-7 format worked pretty well. Along with pacing, it also places a little more value in early-game advantages (e.g. ZSS's pieces), so that's something else to consider.
 

popsofctown

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
2,505
Location
Alabama
Bowser can always stall a few seconds before dying from sideB suicide. PT is the least of our worries in getting buffed. ZSS is another get better with items.. For Zelda/Sheik transform better.. Lucario is unaffected because his max aura requires him to be down 2 stocks in the first place which is not a position you want to be in. Its more a buff as he doesn't have to see his aura weaken too much from a stock lead. I see no difference in Wario.

The main thing about changing stocks is that everything is amplified. Just think of it in other fighting games were the health bar is lessen. Now instead of dying in like 5 combos, you die in 4... But you also kill in 4 combos, which means its just less overall work needed to win but at the same time, you have to play more consistently as you don't have as much leeway to make errors with a smaller health bar.
You concede PT gets a huge buff. That's a bad thing. People that are bad against PT are punished, PT players are rewarded. If it was a good thing for low tiers to be buffed, we'd all be using % handicaps by now.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
I think between 1, 2 or 3 stocks it's just a matter of personal preference. Even 4 stocks bo1 12 minutes sets for pools are really interesting and probably the most efficient way to handle pools.

I think all of them have their merit and should be considered being used for main or side events.

:059:
 

Ussi

Smash Legend
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
17,147
Location
New Jersey (South T_T)
3DS FC
4613-6716-2183
You concede PT gets a huge buff. That's a bad thing. People that are bad against PT are punished, PT players are rewarded. If it was a good thing for low tiers to be buffed, we'd all be using % handicaps by now.
Its only an indirect buff though. The intention is not to buff PT, but to make matches take less time. If anything, just camp the fatigue timer if PT gives you so much trouble.
 

popsofctown

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
2,505
Location
Alabama
Its only an indirect buff though. The intention is not to buff PT, but to make matches take less time. If anything, just camp the fatigue timer if PT gives you so much trouble.
There's less disruptive ways to reduce match durations. Banning slow counterpicks, for instance. Battlefield start instead of strikes, perhaps.
 

Ussi

Smash Legend
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
17,147
Location
New Jersey (South T_T)
3DS FC
4613-6716-2183
Brawl is slow, i've seen games where the first stock wasn't even gone by 4 minutes.. And that usually happens on starters because people more comfortable/experienced on them thus they can play safer more easily.

I'd like to see the potenial time a match can take go down to lower the need for high amounts of mental endurance and attention span.
 

-Cross-

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 12, 2008
Messages
777
Location
NJ
I really like the idea of 1 stock matches, making hard reads much more rewarding and indirectly buffing low tiers since they could win matches with couple of good reads or mistakes by the opponent. The only problem imo is the IC's MU. IC's get pushed to the extreme, as in they only need one grab to win. This results in people playing even campier against them, but on the flip side just one bad separation of nana and popo can mean a stock too. But I like the fact that 1 stock matches would emphasize you being much more consistent with your execution, although if the match format does change, the amount of salt present from the fact that players have much less room for error will be ridiculous.
 

Ussi

Smash Legend
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
17,147
Location
New Jersey (South T_T)
3DS FC
4613-6716-2183
I will love 1 stock vs ICs. I tend to take the first stock then get grabbed 3 times in a row cause i'm bad so my habits start getting read.
 

BSP

Smash Legend
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
10,246
Location
Louisiana
I think all of them have their merit and should be considered being used for main or side events.

:059:
Agreed

We should aim for more experimentation with lower counts. 3 has been standard for quite a while.

:phone:
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
There's less disruptive ways to reduce match durations. Banning slow counterpicks, for instance. Battlefield start instead of strikes, perhaps.
Changing the amount of time spent in a match is less disruptive than removing things that directly affect how we play. I'm not arguing that certain stages should be legal or banned but surely you would agree that removing Smashville or FD would still be more of a change than changing the timer or stock count?

I really like the idea of 1 stock matches, making hard reads much more rewarding and indirectly buffing low tiers since they could win matches with couple of good reads or mistakes by the opponent. The only problem imo is the IC's MU. IC's get pushed to the extreme, as in they only need one grab to win. This results in people playing even campier against them, but on the flip side just one bad separation of nana and popo can mean a stock too. But I like the fact that 1 stock matches would emphasize you being much more consistent with your execution, although if the match format does change, the amount of salt present from the fact that players have much less room for error will be ridiculous.
Even though "real" fighters use a system far more comparable to 1 stock, I doubt Brawl would ever convert to 1 stock Bo3 so its not like ICs would ever win a set with 2 grabs. 1 stock Bo5 or 7 keeps things...similar. Again, if you consider traditional fighting games, its pretty normal to lose a huge chunk of your life from one combo.

Aside from characters that actually do change from stock to stock (I'm talking about ONLY PT and ZSS here), I don't feel that there is any real buff or nerf to other characters. If you are good at killing, you are still good at killing. If you are good at staying alive, you are still good at staying alive with less stocks to guard. If you are good at wasting time, you will be just as good at wasting time (assuming the stock to time ratio is similar).

Certain types of players will excel or falter with less room for error, but I don't feel most characters are affected.

If you take a good while to figure your opponent out, you are going to be worse in a 1 stock match if you can't figure things out before you die. If your style is particularly unique or tricky, you might beat people that would likely figure you out in a 3 stock match and make the necessary comebacks. However, the same situation can be said for 4 stock or 5 stock matches. I've lost some close games/sets that I might have won if both players had 1 or 2 more stocks. Ultimately, its just perception.
 

Dr. R.O.Botnik

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
405
surely you would agree that removing Smashville or FD would still be more of a change than changing the timer or stock count?
I think he meant having Battlefield at the first round of each set, not only having BF.



multiple people said:
*using other fighting games as examples*
Stop that, Smash and especially Brawl are extremely different from most fighting games.
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
Oh god now I can't decide. Why did I ask for more than 2 options. I just know I want less...
 

Dr. R.O.Botnik

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
405
I voted to keep it at 3, mainly because I'm sick of seeing so many people refusing to try any of the Japanese methods before testing out new stuff.
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
Poll options should have been.

-1 but I'm okay with 2
-1 but I'm okay with 3
-1 but I'm okay with 2 and 3
-1 is the only choice I support
-2 but I'm okay with 1
-2 but I'm okay with 3
-2 but I'm okay with 1 and 3
-2 is the only choice I support
-3 but I'm okay with 1
-3 but I'm okay with 2
-3 but I'm okay with 1 and 2
-3 is the only choice I support
-4 like Melee.
 

Ussi

Smash Legend
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
17,147
Location
New Jersey (South T_T)
3DS FC
4613-6716-2183
How about:

1, but as long as its lower
1, all or nothing
2, but as long as its lower
2, 1 is too short for me
3, but i won't be against change
3, smash will lose its smash appeal
4, melee rules completely
 
Top Bottom