Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[Eddie G]

Poor ether hasn't fought a MK in the NJ/NY region in months. Last week, he went dead eve with Bum and BARELY lost to Snakeee. You know them, right? best Zamus and DK in the country?

Of course I know who they are. That is irrelevant though as I am focused toward his comment as pertains to Metaknight. Bum and Snakeee are great players (in this case with their respective characters), but isn't the focal point of this issue none other than MK?

 

[Ru-fi-o]

Of course I know who they are. That is irrelevant though as I am focused toward his comment as pertains to Metaknight. Bum and Snakeee are great players (in this case with their respective characters), but isn't the focal point of this issue none other than MK?

goes even with Inui and Atomsk in teams, lays against Diem's MK, and on multiple occassions placed in the money in a real region, with players who matter

Edit: Sorry, I guess AZ matters. >_> I mean, he's no ADHD, but he's...around.

 

[Eddie G]

The only top MK in my region is M2K. I apologize for not being able to beat/outplace him? Teh_Spamerer (2nd or 3rd best MK) also lives in my state, but he quit Brawl singles, so he doesn't really count as much anymore. Every other MK in my region is fair game.

Well expect a response such as the one I gave you for every time you just simply say "play harder/smarter". If it was really that simple, I could also just tell you to "play harder/smarter" against M2K to outplace him. Not that simple, right?

 

[xDD-Master]

We should have banned him from the beginning

I vote: Yes.

But only temporary

I think it's the best to ban him until next this (Thx @Ru-fi-o for finding this BIG mistake xD) silvester.

When MK is re-allowed, it will get interessting to see how many peoble will re-take him and will not stay at their mains at the time.

If every actual MK-Mainer will go back to MK and results become again the same like now, he should get re-banned another year, but if some people (Maybe also some pros Like M2K or Dojo) will stay at there new mains, because they have more fun / are better with them, the poll had sucess.

At that time it's like: Everyone will Main/2nd MK, but no MK Main/2nd will drop him for another character. So the longer we wait, the more MKs and the less other characters we will see.

/End of my post

 

[Ru-fi-o]

Well expect a response such as the one I gave you for every time you just simply say "play harder/smarter". If it was really that simple, I could also just tell you to "play harder/smarter" against M2K to outplace him. Not that simple, right?

Sure it is, which is why ADHD, who has YEARS less time with the franchise has showed up in NJ, and placed crazily over the last few months. Two weeks ago, took m2k to game 5 with Diddy.

Anti, same as ADHD, was bringing m2k to last hit with snake, a matchup m2k *****.

Stop being a loser.

 

[Ru-fi-o]

I think it's the best to ban him until next silvester.

Fantastic.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Stop maining characters that get trashed by MK. This is supposed to be a competitive community, but there seems to be conflict of interest here. People claim they play to win, but they main characters that can't win tournaments.

Well expect a response such as the one I gave you for every time you just simply say "play harder/smarter". If it was really that simple, I could also just tell you to "play harder/smarter" against M2K to outplace him. Not that simple, right?

It is that simple. I absolutely do need to play harder/smarter. It's called "improving". It's a vital concept in things called "competitions".

 

[CRASHiC]

Stop maining characters that get trashed by MK. This is supposed to be a competitive community, but there seems to be conflict of interest here. People claim they play to win, but they main characters that can't win tournaments.

But the issue is, can anyone win besides Metaknight?
Based on all big tournaments, no.

 

[Ru-fi-o]

Toon link is fun, sure, but you can't expect money. Even with MK gone, "your" character is still trash.

You people aren't the main characters of the world. You all act like this is an episode of pokemon. "YEAH, I DON'T NEED NO ****ING THUNDER STONE! PIKACHU IS LIKE... GOOD ENOUGH, HOMES!"

 

[BOB SAGET]

MK shouldnt be banned. hes not killing everyone. hes just winnig close matches.

 

[Eddie G]

Sure it is, which is why ADHD, who has YEARS less time with the franchise has showed up in NJ, and placed crazily over the last few months. Two weeks ago, took m2k to game 5 with Diddy.

Anti, same as ADHD, was bringing m2k to last hit with snake, a matchup m2k *****.

Stop being a loser.

Alright, you have a point there.

Cut the crap from your posts like what is at the end there. I know you're trying to prove a point but that was just a stupid statement to add.

 

[GodAtHand]

I wish the people who voted not sure, could re-vote once they were sure...

It seems like a useless option if you can't eventually make up your mind. (or can you and I just don't know how?)

 

[Palpi]

Stop maining characters that get trashed by MK. This is supposed to be a competitive community, but there seems to be conflict of interest here. People claim they play to win, but they main characters that can't win tournaments.



It is that simple. I absolutely do need to play harder/smarter. It's called "improving". It's a vital concept in things called "competitions".

I completely agree with you ether.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Stop maining characters that get trashed by MK. This is supposed to be a competitive community, but there seems to be conflict of interest here. People claim they play to win, but they main characters that can't win tournaments.

Wait hold on. Who the hell is the player of character to say who in the world we should play at tournaments. Wether YOU think the characters being used can win one or not, I'm not about to have some game tell me otherwise, hell no.

 

[Ru-fi-o]

But the issue is, can anyone win besides Metaknight?
Based on all big tournaments, no.

Fiction, DEHF, Ally, Anther, Holy, Atomsk, ADHD, Reflex, and Afro would disagree, I think.

 

[xDD-Master]

Sorry i meant this silvester not the next xD

I will edit it ^^

 

[Ru-fi-o]

Wait hold on. Who the hell is the player of character to say who in the world we should play at tournaments. Wether YOU think the characters being used can win one or not, I'm not about to have some game tell me otherwise, hell no.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7202795&postcount=289

Do not pass go.

 

[GodAtHand]

Toon link is fun, sure, but you can't expect money. Even with MK gone, "your" character is still trash.

You people aren't the main characters of the world. You all act like this is an episode of pokemon. "YEAH, I DON'T NEED NO ****ING THUNDER STONE! PIKACHU IS LIKE... GOOD ENOUGH, HOMES!"

How DARE you quote Pokemon in a ghetto fashion!

btw Zelda>Meta. (O_O)

 

[Ru-fi-o]

Sorry i meant this silvester not the next xD

I will edit it ^^

This is amazing.

 

[Max Ketchum]

ZERO bad stages - Halberd vs. Snake? Brinstar vs. Wario? FD vs. Diddy? Japes vs. Falco (where it's legal)?

ZERO bad match-ups - Melee Fox had no bad matches either. All of the top tier characters can sure as hell contend with MK.

Dominates MOST medium-large scale events - The best players play him. Also, look at NJ--ADHD and Atomsk win everything when M2K isn't present, basically.

5 jumps+glide - can't argue
4 recovery options(all B moves) - can't argue


ABSOLUTE AWESOME priority - His attacks all have transcended priority, not real priority. He can always be traded with. By the same token, though, nothing can stop his attacks (minus glide attack, tornado, and drill rush).

Fastest down smash in the game(correct me if im wrong) which has good KO power - Hits on frame 5, wouldn't be surprised if there's one that hits on 4. Even if it's the fastest to come out, "he has the adjective-est move!" isn't a valid argument...Marth has the fastest up B, Luigi has the strongest one. So what? Also, the dsmash is -25 frames on block IIRC...super easy to punish.

AMAZING ground dodge - His spot dodge isn't that good, especially not compared to DDD's/Falco's.

Most of his attacks come out fast and end fast - Yeah? So do Sheik's. His lack of lag is a huge benefactor to him, but he's certainly punishable and avoidable.

Nearly EVERYBODY has him as a main or 2nd or falls back on him when losing. notice the increased meta dittos in the top 10 placings. - can't argue

2-3 frame u-air that can be comboed into tornado or UP+B for low as gimp kills - can't argue

tilt locks - Nope. Dtilt isn't a true jab lock.

wall tilt locks - Nope. SDI up and away, you can get out of dtilt on the wall.

Invincibility on his UP+B(while on ground) - For 3 frames. Marth and Bowser have the same thing. The invincibility never consistently plays a part in things, other than like, up Bing Snake's grenades.

DECIMATES over half the cast - G&W ***** more characters, and even harder. Seriously, he invalidates them harder than MK does. Also, most of those characters don't even matter because they're not tournament viable anyway.

Tornado that eats thru ALL shields(if they are slightly weakened) - Even if a shield has been damaged about 20%, you can still shield the entire tornado. Angle your shield up...

A ledge stalling tech that is UN-PUNISHABLE if done right( i have serveral quotes from m2k on this) - Planking is already banned, and where it isn't, it can be without banning the character. Marth can plank like a ***** too, doesn't make it any fairer when he does it instead of MK. Banworthy tactics (Infinite Dimensional Cape) that aren't a natural part of the character's moveset (grab release 0-deaths, DDD's standing infinites) can't be used in an argument like this...

And theres more im not even remembering right now. - You're also forgetting that Diddy, Snake, Wario and Falco all go **** close to even with him, if not even. Also, Wario and Snake win on their counterpicks.


Yeah, he's the best character. By much? Not at all. Yeah, he has an easy learning curve. Has a random scrub placed top 5 at a tournament with him yet? Not to my knowledge. Yeah, he has huge tournament dominance. Could the players who are making money with him not do so with other characters? Many of them definitely could due to their prowess as individual players.

 

[Palpi]

That is perfectly fine dark pch. What Ether is trying to say(I think) is, if you play a character that isn't that good and get beat by metaknight there is no room to complain because it is your choice on who you play.

I mained Ike for like.. 4 months and I lost to metaknights a lot. Just because I did doesn't give Metaknight the qualifications to banned. It was my decision to keep playing Ike and I could have picked a character that had an easier time against metaknight.

On topic of planking. For most character the most advantageous position you could be in is perfectly spaced on the stage with your opponent on the ledge. Wait for him to come back on to the stage and punish.

 

[Dark.Pch]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7202795&postcount=289

Do not pass go.

Sorry but still no. Just cause You know lil of a character (lets say my main as an example) Does not mean I should stop trying and just convert to a high tier. The heck be the point of learning match ups, the hell be the point of these non high tiers to be there. One of the many reason I choose not to counterpick. **** tkases time. things grow over time. **** does not happen over nite. Really with an unbalanced game. So makeing comments like that about most characters is foolish.

That is perfectly fine dark pch. What Ether is trying to say is, if you play a character that isn't that good and get beat by metaknight there is no room to complain because it is your choice on who you play.

I mained Ike for like.. 4 months and I lost to metaknights a lot. Just because I did doesn't give Metaknight the qualifications to banned. It was my decision to keep playing Ike and I could have picked a character that had an easier time against metaknight.

If that is the case I dont count. I go all Peach and dont cry about high tiers like Meta and snake. Or else I counterpick them, and I see no need for me to do it.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

MK shouldnt be banned. hes not killing everyone. hes just winnig close matches.

Is that an alternate acoount? <_<

I wish the people who voted not sure, could re-vote once they were sure...

It seems like a useless option if you can't eventually make up your mind. (or can you and I just don't know how?)

This.
Now its to late .



Honestly, I will not let the tier list let me decide my main.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Toon link is fun, sure, but you can't expect money. Even with MK gone, "your" character is still trash.

You people aren't the main characters of the world. You all act like this is an episode of pokemon. "YEAH, I DON'T NEED NO ****ING THUNDER STONE! PIKACHU IS LIKE... GOOD ENOUGH, HOMES!"

Pikachu>Raichu.

In anycase other than saying "get better, use a better character." that doesn't really add to the argument on adding to the anti ban.

only because that only lays the blame upon the player while it does not look at the fact that the players you all listed, are all exceptionally good.

Character choice does have something to do with it, this is true, but the argment of "get better" doesn't mean much considering what the tournament results have been saying.
When Snake was dominating (he took over 37% of all tournaments which MK has ot done IIRC), people got better, Snake dropped.

MK however hasn't shown himself to be lowering , if anything, it only appears that Mk has become more and more prominent.

So what then? Just get better? Obviously people have been attempting to make such strides, so the blame cannot all lie on the player.

If in order to win you have to be many times better than the other player, then what does that say about the character?

 

[BOB SAGET]

ZERO bad stages - Halberd vs. Snake? Brinstar vs. Wario? FD vs. Diddy? Japes vs. Falco (where it's legal)?

ZERO bad match-ups - Melee Fox had no bad matches either. All of the top tier characters can sure as hell contend with MK.

Dominates MOST medium-large scale events - The best players play him. Also, look at NJ--ADHD and Atomsk win everything when M2K isn't present, basically.

5 jumps+glide - can't argue
4 recovery options(all B moves) - can't argue


ABSOLUTE AWESOME priority - His attacks all have transcended priority, not real priority. He can always be traded with. By the same token, though, nothing can stop his attacks (minus glide attack, tornado, and drill rush).

Fastest down smash in the game(correct me if im wrong) which has good KO power - Hits on frame 5, wouldn't be surprised if there's one that hits on 4. Even if it's the fastest to come out, "he has the adjective-est move!" isn't a valid argument...Marth has the fastest up B, Luigi has the strongest one. So what? Also, the dsmash is -25 frames on block IIRC...super easy to punish.

AMAZING ground dodge - His spot dodge isn't that good, especially not compared to DDD's/Falco's.

Most of his attacks come out fast and end fast - Yeah? So do Sheik's. His lack of lag is a huge benefactor to him, but he's certainly punishable and avoidable.

Nearly EVERYBODY has him as a main or 2nd or falls back on him when losing. notice the increased meta dittos in the top 10 placings. - can't argue

2-3 frame u-air that can be comboed into tornado or UP+B for low as gimp kills - can't argue

tilt locks - Nope. Dtilt isn't a true jab lock.

wall tilt locks - Nope. SDI up and away, you can get out of dtilt on the wall.

Invincibility on his UP+B(while on ground) - For 3 frames. Marth and Bowser have the same thing. The invincibility never consistently plays a part in things, other than like, up Bing Snake's grenades.

DECIMATES over half the cast - G&W ***** more characters, and even harder. Seriously, he invalidates them harder than MK does. Also, most of those characters don't even matter because they're not tournament viable anyway.

Tornado that eats thru ALL shields(if they are slightly weakened) - Even if a shield has been damaged about 20%, you can still shield the entire tornado. Angle your shield up...

A ledge stalling tech that is UN-PUNISHABLE if done right( i have serveral quotes from m2k on this) - Planking is already banned, and where it isn't, it can be without banning the character. Marth can plank like a ***** too, doesn't make it any fairer when he does it instead of MK. Banworthy tactics (Infinite Dimensional Cape) that aren't a natural part of the character's moveset (grab release 0-deaths, DDD's standing infinites) can't be used in an argument like this...

And theres more im not even remembering right now. - You're also forgetting that Diddy, Snake, Wario and Falco all go **** close to even with him, if not even. Also, Wario and Snake win on their counterpicks.


Yeah, he's the best character. By much? Not at all. Yeah, he has an easy learning curve. Has a random scrub placed top 5 at a tournament with him yet? Not to my knowledge. Yeah, he has huge tournament dominance. Could the players who are making money with him not do so with other characters? Many of them definitely could due to their prowess as individual players.

u r completely correct. he doesnt own everyone. he sometimes wins close tournaments. and his matchups against good characters r close

 

[Brinzy]

You put too much faith into matchup numbers my friend.

Matchup difficulty is subjective in most cases at high level play and not a lot of people pay enough respect to this. Leepuff claims the GnW/MK matchup to be 50/50, but not every GnW player (top or not) says the same thing; The same applies to Atomsk's claim on the DDD/MK matchup being 50/50. This is nothing more than their own personal comfort with the matchup, which proves that matchup numbers are ultimately irrelevant unless it is visually clear that one character is totally outclassed by another, which in the case of MK vs. the majority of the cast is valid. Why is it that a lot of the best players (Ally, M2K, etc.) don't sit in these threads and cherry-pick others' arguments while preaching matchup numbers as much as a lot of players on the lower end of the spectrum do, if at all?

Can you recall when you last saw Azen, a player with extensive personal knowledge on several characters, pay a visit to a thread like this to discuss such a subjective topic like anything regarding matchup numbers? Exactly, he doesn't, and yet he is still one of the handful of players at the top who are dealing with the matchups. He and other players who "walk the walk" learn the ins-and-outs of matchups. They aren't stuck playing these silly little number games with a side of theorycrafting.

If I could be at the top or even somewhere high up, I would. I can't. That's why I'm stuck with these "silly little number games." I don't have the choice to do anything else. They do, so they don't have to be in these threads.

Also, name characters MK knocks to 70:30 and tell me if these characters don't have a fight nearly that bad already. You can't make a post dedicated as to why I'm mistaken for talking match-up numbers and then tell me that they're valid in the case of MK.

 

[Ru-fi-o]

Sorry but still no. Just cause You know lil of a character (lets say my main as an example) Does not mean I should stop trying and just convert to a high tier. The heck be the point of learning match ups, the hell be the point of these non high tiers to be there. One of the many reason I choose not to counterpick. **** tkases time. things grow over time. **** does not happen over nite. Really with an unbalanced game. So makeing comments like that about most characters is foolish.

Your character is garbage, and MK beats it. Would you like to MM me with Peach?

I'll tell ya, I wouldn't be confident if you were snake, or wario

 

[Ru-fi-o]

Honestly, I will not let the tier list let me decide my main.

Why the **** not?

Would you play 8/4o at a poker tourn cause 4 is your fave number? No, but you'd go all in with aces.

 

[xDD-Master]

I also want to say that I was going to an tourney and that it was the first time I played MK in a tourney.

I got First, by using MK in the first match (Every Time win) then picking up Snake or others (Depends on the stage they had choosen, or my CP).

In every tournament before I couldn't get better then semi-finals, because my falco/olimar was defeated by an MK (Who won one of the two tourneys).


It's not they I hate MK, I find his style the one of best of all smash characters and I like his Movesets, but he's just too annoying and somehow too good (Not unbeatable but he IS freaking good xD)

 

[BOB SAGET]

heres a match up chart that shows MKs counters http://smashgamers.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/matchup.jpg

 

[Dragonslayer9]

I now approve of the ban, MK has really affected the competitive gameplay scene with his small advantages that make a big difference. If you think about it, whenever your opponent picks MK, you face several disadvantages and against a player like M2K, you don't really have much of a chance.

 

[Excellence]

ZERO bad stages - Halberd vs. Snake? Brinstar vs. Wario? FD vs. Diddy? Japes vs. Falco (where it's legal)?

ZERO bad match-ups - Melee Fox had no bad matches either. All of the top tier characters can sure as hell contend with MK.

Dominates MOST medium-large scale events - The best players play him. Also, look at NJ--ADHD and Atomsk win everything when M2K isn't present, basically.

5 jumps+glide - can't argue
4 recovery options(all B moves) - can't argue


ABSOLUTE AWESOME priority - His attacks all have transcended priority, not real priority. He can always be traded with. By the same token, though, nothing can stop his attacks (minus glide attack, tornado, and drill rush).

Fastest down smash in the game(correct me if im wrong) which has good KO power - Hits on frame 5, wouldn't be surprised if there's one that hits on 4. Even if it's the fastest to come out, "he has the adjective-est move!" isn't a valid argument...Marth has the fastest up B, Luigi has the strongest one. So what? Also, the dsmash is -25 frames on block IIRC...super easy to punish.

AMAZING ground dodge - His spot dodge isn't that good, especially not compared to DDD's/Falco's.

Most of his attacks come out fast and end fast - Yeah? So do Sheik's. His lack of lag is a huge benefactor to him, but he's certainly punishable and avoidable.

Nearly EVERYBODY has him as a main or 2nd or falls back on him when losing. notice the increased meta dittos in the top 10 placings. - can't argue

2-3 frame u-air that can be comboed into tornado or UP+B for low as gimp kills - can't argue

tilt locks - Nope. Dtilt isn't a true jab lock.

wall tilt locks - Nope. SDI up and away, you can get out of dtilt on the wall.

Invincibility on his UP+B(while on ground) - For 3 frames. Marth and Bowser have the same thing. The invincibility never consistently plays a part in things, other than like, up Bing Snake's grenades.

DECIMATES over half the cast - G&W ***** more characters, and even harder. Seriously, he invalidates them harder than MK does. Also, most of those characters don't even matter because they're not tournament viable anyway.

Tornado that eats thru ALL shields(if they are slightly weakened) - Even if a shield has been damaged about 20%, you can still shield the entire tornado. Angle your shield up...

A ledge stalling tech that is UN-PUNISHABLE if done right( i have serveral quotes from m2k on this) - Planking is already banned, and where it isn't, it can be without banning the character. Marth can plank like a ***** too, doesn't make it any fairer when he does it instead of MK. Banworthy tactics (Infinite Dimensional Cape) that aren't a natural part of the character's moveset (grab release 0-deaths, DDD's standing infinites) can't be used in an argument like this...

And theres more im not even remembering right now. - You're also forgetting that Diddy, Snake, Wario and Falco all go **** close to even with him, if not even. Also, Wario and Snake win on their counterpicks.


Yeah, he's the best character. By much? Not at all. Yeah, he has an easy learning curve. Has a random scrub placed top 5 at a tournament with him yet? Not to my knowledge. Yeah, he has huge tournament dominance. Could the players who are making money with him not do so with other characters? Many of them definitely could due to their prowess as individual players.

All you're saying is, "Yes, Meta Knight has all the best traits this game has to offer but he isn't broken."

 

[GodAtHand]

Your character is garbage, and MK beats it. Would you like to MM me with Peach?

I'll tell ya, I wouldn't be confident if you were snake, or wario

Where you not at a tournament yesterday where a Zelda/Peach team took match off of a prominent double meta team? ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!!! Just like a Pikachu beating a Raichu even when grossly under-leveled...

yepp, that was a shameless plug-in for myself.

 

[Palpi]

I wasn't saying you were crying just giving an example, just to clear that up. Anyone can main anyone, but if you think MK should be banned just because of the character you play is bad, that is 100% absurd.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Where you not at a tournament yesterday where a Zelda/Peach team took match off of a prominent double meta team? ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!!! Just like a Pikachu beating a Raichu even when grossly under-leveled...

yepp, that was a shameless plug-in for myself.

Zelda is nuts in 2v1 (when she's on the 2 side), and I also kinda killed my partner twice by accident, lol.

But hey, believe what you want.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I love how dmbrandon and Ether **** this thread

<3

 

[ShadowLink84]

Question: If we have all these characters who supposedly go close to even with MK, why is it that we have not seen those characters shown a greater presence inside of the tournaments?

 

[Asdioh]

This is amazing.

This is delicious!

Give him a break though, he's in Germany.

 

[Ru-fi-o]

Where you not at a tournament yesterday where a Zelda/Peach team took match off of a prominent double meta team? ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!!! Just like a Pikachu beating a Raichu even when grossly under-leveled...

yepp, that was a shameless plug-in for myself.

:D good ****. Also, I hope you're anti-ban, cause you just hurt the cause.

I love how dmbrandon and Ether **** this thread

<3

HOW DOES AUSTRIA KNOW?!

Better question: How didn't I know that austria would know. /sexypose

 

[Brinzy]

Question: If we have all these characters who supposedly go close to even with MK, why is it that we have not seen those characters shown a greater presence inside of the tournaments?

One possible answer: they are less represented and have to go through more than one MK (usually) while the MK may not even face that character in tournament, and even if they did, three MKs are likely to take down one <insert 50:50 character>, if that person advances.