Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[Prawn]

Guys even though I lost the first set to lain and won the next set, the difference between the matches were VERY small

it was just enough for me to lose first time then just enough for me to win 2nd time by the hardest camping I've ever had to do before

everything was last stock, and two games were last hit

and Ally just played better than me this time I wasn't sandbagging he just was playing better this time no johns. I'm very insulted that people would say I'd sandbag in a situation like that.

I have to be honest, before these matches(and this debacle)I think I had a little disrespect for you because you mained MK and how you said you only played Brawl for money, but now with your reaction to all the talk and the way I've seen you play(because I've payed more attention)MK I really have the utmost respect in your character and your gameplay. I think you get a bad rep solely because of jealousy.

Keep kicking *** man, I'll see you at ECRC #4 in August :bigthumbu

 

[lain]

Guys even though I lost the first set to lain and won the next set, the difference between the matches were VERY small

it was just enough for me to lose first time then just enough for me to win 2nd time by the hardest camping I've ever had to do before

everything was last stock, and two games were last hit

and Ally just played better than me this time I wasn't sandbagging he just was playing better this time no johns. I'm very insulted that people would say I'd sandbag in a situation like that.

LOL Jason. I've seen you repeat that like 90 times around the boards. Maybe we should make some PSA about everything APEX related XD.

 

[Mew2King]

I have to be honest, before these matches(and this debacle)I think I had a little disrespect for you because you mained MK and how you said you only played Brawl for money, but now with your reaction to all the talk and the way I've seen you play(because I've payed more attention)MK I really have the utmost respect in your character and your gameplay. I think you get a bad rep solely because of jealousy.

Keep kicking *** man, I'll see you at ECRC #4 in August :bigthumbu

I used to only play Brawl for money, for a little while, but I enjoy the game as long as I'm allowed to play MK, and it's not cuz he's the best character cuz I mained him back when everyone said Snake was the best. The other characters are not fun to me. I actually enjoy using MK and ****** people with him, I just had more fun death comboing people in Melee by comparison. I also try not to play gay whenever possible to encourage others to play like that as well. This game can be fun and skill based if you play it properly, which is what I want to encourage others to do too. Win with skill.

 

[Prawn]

I used to only play Brawl for money, for a little while, but I enjoy the game as long as I'm allowed to play MK, and it's not cuz he's the best character cuz I mained him back when everyone said Snake was the best. The other characters are not fun to me. I actually enjoy using MK and ****** people with him, I just had more fun death comboing people in Melee by comparison. I also try not to play gay whenever possible to encourage others to play like that as well. This game can be fun and skill based if you play it properly, which is what I want to encourage others to do too. Win with skill.

I actually enjoy playing against good MKs and trying to find ways around them(and they do exist). MK may be better than other characters but he's very beatable by a good amount of the cast.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I also try not to play gay whenever possible to encourage others to play like that as well. This game can be fun and skill based if you play it properly, which is what I want to encourage others to do too. Win with skill.

With an attitude like that, you're asking somebody to overtake you. Play to win. Don't think it's gonna be me though, at least not anytime soon, lol


Speaking personally, unless I use every legal method that I can, I don't have fun, because it feels like I'm holding back, and if my opponent does the same, it feels like they're holding back.

 

[Hadesflame]

if you ban him who's next snake? i don't think it would be a good idea to do so.
i vote no

 

[sh@dy]

Well banning a chracter principally sucks imo.

But on the other hand MK is the best character especially off stage for easy gimps/kills, whereas other characters who could beat MK don´t even come close and always have almost no chance at all recovering.

Additionally the rest of his capabilities are simply outstanding...

In my opinion an MK ban would round up the characters balancing system because snake would by far not be as dominant as MK is now.

Just my 2 Cents

 

[Prawn]

if you ban him who's next snake? i don't think it would be a good idea to do so.
i vote no

I'm against the ban but slippery slope argument is stupid.

 

[ShadowLink84]

He's beatable. He shouldn't be banned.

Its not the first time an MK was beaten either.

Q.Q more.

Do not respond to my post unless you understand it.
Otherwise, you make yourself look foolish.

My point to was to criticize people who pull out this one result and then use it as direct proofing for showing MK is not ban worthy.

Lurk moar, post not at all. Kthxbai.

 

[noodles]

i rather mk doesnt get banned since i put a decent amount of time into him already

 

[ShadowLink84]

Cry me a river then go drown it in noodles.
We do not care for all the hard work someone puts into a character.
if Mk is actually over-centralizing the game by nature (which I do not believe he is), then he is ban-worthy.
Thw wishes of the MK mainers is unimportant in the face of the needs of the metagame.

 

[noodles]

um wow

i wasnt using that as an argument btw

Spoiler

i hope mk doesnt get banned!

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Cry me a river then go drown it in noodles.
We do not care for all the hard work someone puts into a character.
if Mk is actually over-centralizing the game by nature (which I do not believe he is), then he is ban-worthy.
Thw wishes of the MK mainers is unimportant in the face of the needs of the metagame.

I was kind of wishing the thread would be locked after such a nice statement was made.

But alas the thread ****ting continues.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I was kind of wishing the thread would be locked after such a nice statement was made.

But alas the thread ****ting continues.

Oh trust me that was nice considering the many, many things that have been said.

Q.Q moar.

um wow

i wasnt using that as an argument btw

Why in the hell post at all then?

 

[noodles]

because i felt like posting?

 

[Prawn]

Oh trust me that was nice considering the many, many things that have been said.

Q.Q moar.


Why in the hell post at all then?

ShadowLink is a pretty cool guy, he debates scrubs and doesn't afraid of anything.

 

[Jski]

Well ppl keep saying the same thing over and over not too much else can be said on both sides. I think this has been said a lot before too!

 

[noodles]

the people in this thread are ridiculous

 

[lain]

omfg.

Page 420.

Get Highpe.

Spoiler

oh and don't ban metaknight noobs

 

[noodles]

im on page 158 though >_<

 

[Conti]

omfg.

Page 420.

Get Highpe.

Spoiler

oh and don't ban metaknight noobs

LMAOOOO... 40posts per page = FTW

im on page 158 though >_<

LOLOL Page 158 Ftw...

MK =\= Banned... APEX's Results were nothing like WHOBO... MK didnt overwhelm the tourny (as in didnt like uber R4P3 like at WHOB being 3/4ths of the top 12) and i saw alot of MK's there... me being one of em [but i was sucking balls [uber nervous] all weekend so i dont count ]

I really dont feel a ban being apropiate... i just dont...
Lol =]

"Come back when YOU start geting BANed at Tournaments" - Brawl Taunts 3

and Tbh if they ban MK, i'll LOL for like ever,,, and i'll use Diddy Kong and Maybe D3 [Lol idc about this proposal its nonsense]... Plus i like diddy more cuz idk alot more fun, i <3 TeH gLiDe ToSs NaNNa ComBozzz
(and Spiking with Dair and Rocket Barrels > Shuttle loop stage spikes.. in terms of fun feeling)
But i am against the MK Ban... It's nonsense... =\

:'0 Crybabies =]

 

[thumbswayup]

Thw wishes of the MK mainers is unimportant in the face of the needs of the metagame.

Ironic that this is the exact reason he hasn't been banned.

 

[iRJi]

MK =\= Banned... APEX's Results were nothing like WHOBO... MK didnt overwhelm the tourny (as in didnt like uber R4P3 like at WHOB being 3/4ths of the top 12) and i saw alot of MK's there... me being one of em [but i was sucking balls [uber nervous] all weekend so i dont count ]

I was afraid people would use the Apex results as an excuse to cover up the fact he still needs to be banned. Just because MK's didn't rule one tournament, does not mean he isn't banned worthy, even if it is a major.

 

[Yuna]

My point mostly is the unexamined source for where the criteria in "MK doesn't meet the criteria for a ban" comes from. It's just kinda one of those things that everyone knows and nobody's spelled out.

You're still arguing that because MK is "so good", there's no reason to main anyone else, thus everyone will eventually main him and all tournament placements will go to MK.

Well, too bad that's not happening. If everyone good is maining him, how come he's not taking all Top 5 placements at most tournaments? How come other characters are still winning? Not only is MK not "too good", he's currently not even close to being as popular as the doomsday scenario you are painting up.

And it all doesn't change the fact that you can choose one of several other characters and still win.

 

[bobson]

Only losers are on page 420. Real men use 40-per-page.

 

[noodles]

people used whobo to show how mk should be banned

mk's didnt **** apex, top 3 was snake,m2k,iceclimbers/d3, but now thats not legit

 

[Red Arremer]

I was afraid people would use the Apex results as an excuse to cover up the fact he still needs to be banned. Just because MK's didn't rule one tournament, does not mean he isn't banned worthy, even if it is a major.

Okay, so, what other argument does the proban side have?

"Meta Knight dominates tournaments" <- He didn't dominate at a major tournament where the attendance both of top Meta Knights and non-Meta Knights were high (unlike at WHOBO, where the attendance of top Meta Knights was high, but there were almost no non-Meta Knights). There were 4 people using Meta Knight in the Top 10, out of which only one purely went Meta Knight. Genesis won't look different that much.

"Meta Knight has no disadvantageous matchups" <- Wrong. There's Bowser's Infinite now. And he has several even matchups, as well.

"Meta Knight has no hard counters" <- So do 3 other characters besides Meta Knight (Snake, Kirby and Wario). We'd have to ban all 4 by this criteria, resulting in at least 6 other characters in the need of banning due to their hard counters being banned.

"Meta Knight's moves are broken" <- So are many moves of other characters (Snake's tilts, Dedede's Chaingrabs, etc.).

"Meta Knight is dominating in general" <- 30-40% are dominant, but not to the point where everyone plays him. 70-60% of the tournament placings are still going to other characters but Meta Knight.

"Meta Knight makes [insert amount of characters] unviable" <- Wrong. From Top to Mid Tier, there's three characters that have Meta Knight as hard counter: R.O.B., Peach and Marth. Removing Meta Knight would not make R.O.B. or Peach anymore viable, since they both still have hard counters, which results in only Marth being completely viable then. So we exchange one character with another one?

"Meta Knight breaks the counterpick-system" <- Rather subjective, but eh. He's a safe choice but never the best. He has a disadvantageous matchup, thus you can counterpick him, too. So... No, he doesn't.

What else?

 

[Yuna]

people used whobo to show how mk should be banned

mk's didnt **** apex, top 3 was snake,m2k,iceclimbers/d3, but now thats not legit

Because some people can't look further than the tournament results. They don't factor in things such as the fact that WHOBO was attended by many of the best MKs in the world while the rest of the characters had pretty meager representation.

Meanwhile, Apex was attended by the best MKs in the world and the best in the world in the field of many other characters as well, making the playing field much more even.

Logic >>> BS.

 

[iRJi]

Okay, so, what other argument does the proban side have?

"Meta Knight dominates tournaments" <- He didn't dominate at a major tournament where the attendance both of top Meta Knights and non-Meta Knights were high (unlike at WHOBO, where the attendance of top Meta Knights was high, but there were almost no non-Meta Knights). There were 4 people using Meta Knight in the Top 10, out of which only one purely went Meta Knight. Genesis won't look different that much.

"Meta Knight has no disadvantageous matchups" <- Wrong. There's Bowser's Infinite now. And he has several even matchups, as well.

"Meta Knight has no hard counters" <- So do 3 other characters besides Meta Knight (Snake, Kirby and Wario). We'd have to ban all 4 by this criteria, resulting in at least 6 other characters in the need of banning due to their hard counters being banned.

"Meta Knight's moves are broken" <- So are many moves of other characters (Snake's tilts, Dedede's Chaingrabs, etc.).

"Meta Knight is dominating in general" <- 30-40% are dominant, but not to the point where everyone plays him. 70-60% of the tournament placings are still going to other characters but Meta Knight.

"Meta Knight makes [insert amount of characters] unviable" <- Wrong. From Top to Mid Tier, there's three characters that have Meta Knight as hard counter: R.O.B., Peach and Marth. Removing Meta Knight would not make R.O.B. or Peach anymore viable, since they both still have hard counters, which results in only Marth being completely viable then. So we exchange one character with another one?

"Meta Knight breaks the counterpick-system" <- Rather subjective, but eh. He's a safe choice but never the best. He has a disadvantageous matchup, thus you can counterpick him, too. So... No, he doesn't.

What else?

The Infinite with bowser isn't really an infinite, you can force an air release for it, and if that's the only reason why hes a counter pick then forget that option cause now its out the window.

So now he has no negitive matchups but a few evens. Snake has counters, Idk where you got kirby not having counter picks (Like you never heard of marth before) and wario has a few bad matchups also, that one is out the window too.

Not only is Mk a safe option, he is the safest option. Even with 2 even matchups. if everyone wants the best chance to win a tournament, they need to go MK first to be safe? No next one.

its not 30-40% of the population that plays mk, its actually more like a 70% and im looking for the thread to back that up, and I will post it when I find it. Moving on.

IDK where you got the idea that he makes characters unviable to play. R.O.B vs MK isnt as bad as people make it to be, and Marth has plenty of options. Peach I am not sure about.

Its not that his moves are broken, its just that compared to other characters he on the most part has the safest options. Fast moves with very little cool down, a SDi input of 2 frames and ends on like 4.

 

[Fiery brawl]

I have nothing against MK but he is just to rigged. Everything he does hurts and hurts bad, and people can really be cheap with him. So, thats why I chose a ban, but not to be mean, maybe just a temporary ban to show how much better it is without him

 

[Praxis]

Meanwhile, Apex was attended by the best MKs in the world and the best in the world in the field of many other characters as well, making the playing field much more even.

There was only what, two of the top five MK's?

We'll see what happens at Genesis. The exact same reasons you guys used to disregard WHOBO also apply to Apex. "too many top MK's" vs "not enough".

And he has several even matchups, as well.

Name them.
Because he doesn't.

 

[Red Arremer]

The Infinite with bowser isn't really an infinite, you can force an air release for it, and if that's the only reason why hes a counter pick then forget that option cause now its out the window.

It has been confirmed that it's an Infinite. And what do you mean "out the window"?

So now he has no negitive matchups but a few evens.

Bowser.

Snake has counters, Idk where you got kirby not having counter picks (Like you never heard of marth before) and wario has a few bad matchups also, that one is out the window too.

I'm not speaking of a DISADVANTAGE, I'm speaking of a HARD COUNTER. Get your facts straight. Neither Snake nor Kirby nor Wario have a matchup of 65:35 or worse.

Not only is Mk a safe option, he is the safest option. Even with 2 even matchups. if everyone wants the best chance to win a tournament, they need to go MK first to be safe? No next one.

Then why isn't everyone playing Meta Knight yet?

its not 30-40% of the population that plays mk, its actually more like a 70% and im looking for the thread to back that up, and I will post it when I find it. Moving on.

WTF? I've never heard this before in my entire life. Seriously. This is BS. You can't say it's a fact that 70% of the players use Meta Knight if you don't have evidence. Besides, of course... the old Pro-Ban "argument". As long as it speaks in the favor of banning Meta Knight, every crap is used as "fact".

IDK where you got the idea that he makes characters unviable to play

From the Pro-Ban side. I quote, I think from Supermodel of Paris: "He makes half the cast unviable."

R.O.B vs MK isnt as bad as people make it to be, and Marth has plenty of options. Peach I am not sure about.

Well, if all of those matches are winnable... what's the point of banning him then? If even the characters whose hardest matchup happens to be Meta Knight can win against him?

Its not that his moves are broken, its just that compared to other characters he on the most part has the safest options. Fast moves with very little cool down, a SDi input of 2 frames and ends on like 4.

Well, there's a reason he's the best character. If your only ban-criteria is "he's good"... then you've got a serious problem.

There was only what, two of the top five MK's?

We'll see what happens at Genesis. The exact same reasons you guys used to disregard WHOBO also apply to Apex. "too many top MK's" vs "not enough".

The only Top Meta Knights missing at APEX were DSF and Tyrant (since Infinity stopped playing Meta Knight). The Top Non-Meta Knights missing at WHOBO were... let's see how many I'll get:
Atomsk, Ally, ADHD, Fiction, Reflex, Candy, Anther, DEHF, HolyNightmare, NinjaLink, NEO, Boss, and many more.

Name them.
Because he doesn't.

Snake, Wario, Diddy (at least on certain stages), and possibly Ice Climbers.

 

[Prawn]

omfg.

Page 420.

Get Highpe.

Spoiler

oh and don't ban metaknight noobs

Team S.L.O.W.

Spoiler

Smoke Lots Of Weed

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

The Infinite with bowser isn't really an infinite, you can force an air release for it, and if that's the only reason why hes a counter pick then forget that option cause now its out the window.

So now he has no negitive matchups but a few evens. Snake has counters, Idk where you got kirby not having counter picks (Like you never heard of marth before) and wario has a few bad matchups also, that one is out the window too.


Not only is Mk a safe option, he is the safest option. Even with 2 even matchups. if everyone wants the best chance to win a tournament, they need to go MK first to be safe? No next one.

its not 30-40% of the population that plays mk, its actually more like a 70% and im looking for the thread to back that up, and I will post it when I find it. Moving on.

IDK where you got the idea that he makes characters unviable to play. R.O.B vs MK isnt as bad as people make it to be, and Marth has plenty of options. Peach I am not sure about.

Its not that his moves are broken, its just that compared to other characters he on the most part has the safest options. Fast moves with very little cool down, a SDi input of 2 frames and ends on like 4.

snake doesnt have counters, he has slight disadvanteges. top players say him vs ddd and rob is nearly even
Meta is slowly getting more and mroe even matchups
wario's worst match-up is marth and thats only 6-4, so its completly winnable.
It was already said he is the safest, but its still not the best. People just dont want to bother spending time to learn a character.
Actually it is only 30-40%. his tourney placings only account for 26% now.
And of course he has great options. HES THE BEST CHARACTER. every game has a best who has more options and better general moves than the rest of the cast.
Marth has generally better match-ups vs tourney viable characters then mk does.
Mk doesnt make anyone unviable.
The match-up between bowser and mk wasnt bad before the new discovery.
We have all noticed that as time progressed his match-ups are becomign more and more even. Its very easy to see that in time he has become easier to deal with.
There is NO real reason to ban MK. NONE
Also the only tourney mk ***** was whobo. stop saying apex is one tourey as whobo was ONE tourey
Plus non-mk representation was present at apex, making it a more logical tourney to use as an example

 

[Nic64]

Marth has generally better match-ups vs tourney viable characters then mk does.

no he doesn't. I agree that he's not too good and shouldn't be banned, but marth is not better against more viable characters, he has falco, wario, and olimar, while MK enjoys a better matchup with DDD, Snake, ROB, and both of the characters in question even -_-

 

[noodles]

the only reasons i think mk should be banned are

the fact that he has alot of safe options in most situations

infinite dimensional cape

how well he can camp the edge

tournaments usually ban the infinite cape and planking

so really what makes him so good are his options.
but knowing what the mk is going to do gives you chances to hit mk. so just know what to do against the right situations vs mk and play smart and your fine.
this type of thing is really hard to go into detail about

 

[ShadowLink84]

because i felt like posting?

Oh so you were just +1ing your account. *reports for idiocy*

Ironic that this is the exact reason he hasn't been banned.

Too many other reasons support MK remaining legal.
As much as I dislike the *******, there is no reason to ban him.
Hmm, maybe I will secondary MK and see what happens.

the only reasons i think mk should be banned are

the fact that he has alot of safe options in most situations

Ban a character because he is good?
Thats, terrible reasoning.

infinite dimensional cape

Which is banned separately.

how well he can camp the edge

Several characters can camp it as well.
You can beat planking.

tournaments usually ban the infinite cape and planking

So...why bother mentioning them?

so really what makes him so good are his options.
but knowing what the mk is going to do gives you chances to hit mk. so just know what to do against the right situations vs mk and play smart and your fine.
this type of thing is really hard to go into detail about

Play smart and you will win!
Just wait for the MK to make a mistake and you are good to go!
That is bad reasoning.

We have to think about MK's capabilities.
How good is MK? Is he unreasonably good?
Does he make it unreasonably difficult to beat him?
Does he, as a result, overcentralize the game?

Saying play smart is hardly enough to justify MK remaining legal.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

no he doesn't. I agree that he's not too good and shouldn't be banned, but marth is not better against more viable characters, he has falco, wario, and olimar, while MK enjoys a better matchup with DDD, Snake, ROB, and both of the characters in question even -_-

Marth also has g&w, pika, kirby, diddy possibly bowser

seven characters (maybe eight) > three

 

[Nic64]

Oh so you were just +1ing your account. *reports for idiocy*

Ironing is delicious

Marth also has g&w, pika, kirby,

I don't think Marth is any better against GAW or Kirby at all, MK has a good advantage on them too. Did forget about pikachu but still, at best Marth has just as many advantages, not more, and he has his disadvantageous matchups to MK, DDD, and Snake.

 

[ShadowLink84]

because i felt like posting?

Ironing is delicious

Do you not mean irony?
Or hypocrisy? etc etc etc.
If you notice, when it comes to MK I have rather been productive.

@spadefox: you did not explain why bowser has an advantage to MK when I inquired earlier.
Also stop bringing up generalizations concerning the pro-ban side, its sill since most of pro-ban and anti-ban is made up of dumb people.

Regardless, there really has not been any true trend of MK being an extremely dominating character.
yes he wins the most often, this is expected seeing as he is the best character. The issue is if he is the only character capable of winning with a reasonable chance.
Does he 90-10 everyone?
Are the characters that go 50-50 with him unviable in every other aspect?