Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[AvaricePanda]

uhh.

Whether or not a character is helpful or not to the metagame compared to harmful is a crap reason to ban a character if they aren't banworthy in the first place.

Question: What does one single character do to the metagame? All a single character does is add one more character diversity.

How much does it harm? For some characters, quite a lot. D3 easily makes quite a bit of characters like DK completely unviable because of an infinite chaingrab, and he's really doing more harm than good. Marth does the same thing against Lucas and Ness, and has generally advantageous matchups across the board except for against D3 and MK, but his matchups against mid-low tier are generally better than MKs. Keeping him means he does more harm than good. Arguably, low low-tiers like Falcon and Ganondorf just keep people from using more tourney viable characters, and are arguably doing more harm than good. Snake and MK are used by a lot of people and have good matchups across the board. They both do more harm than good.

Does that mean that all of these characters are banworthy because they do more harm than good? No. A character is banworthy when he's the only viable choice to win anything big. Meta Knight is not this.

Oh right, I only debunked that in my head apparently even though you just chose not to respond to it. Whether or not a character benefitts the metagame is a crap reason. The competitive community would only be more diverse, which isn't necessary, and "better tournaments" is an opinion seeing as how some people do enjoy playing MK, and regions like New Jersey have a lot of top MKs.

It does matter when you're trying to explain what happened at Apex (which didn't happen, btw). How many times do you think in a competitive community that a notable pro of a character stops using them because they're the best character in the game, or whatever? It may have made people focus on their main because they either like their main or the matchup was better, not just because of some negative stigma that has no effect on notable players.

When you make stuff up, people tend not to believe you when you provide it with absolutely no evidence.

 

[Red Arremer]

Lain never played Meta Knight.
Atomsk never played Meta Knight.
Ally never played Meta Knight.
Mew2King never switched to another character.
Ever (for the latter at least in APEX's case, not too sure if he always played Meta Knight all the time, I'm not stalking him).

So, that's 4 out of the Top 10 who didn't change their mains. At all. Unfortunately I'm not too up to date when it comes to the Top 10, so I can't tell you whom else is in there... But I'm sure those people never switched from Meta Knight to their secondary, or switched from their main to Meta Knight for whatever reason.

And honestly, it's just ridiculous to try saying "BUT THE TOP PLAYERS DIDN'T USE META KNIGHT BECAUSE OTHERWISE MY POINT WOULD BE PROVEN WRONG!"

 

[Sosuke]

First off, there's no need to insult me or my paragraph
Anyway, playing as a character, if he/she is your best, is considered a strategy, for you'd most certainly want to perform at your best when faced with a competition of sorts. Am I correct? Those who consider a person whom chooses to play as Meta Knight solely a strategy for those who cannot win honorably is false. This might make it clear: CHOOSING META KNIGHT IS NOT AN ACT THAT SHOULD BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST. However, you may be right, in that if planking or spamming or running away is not considered illegal, then so be it. But, now ask yourself: Why ban Meta Knight?!

**Is he too good? - Then get better.
**You can say he is superior in spamming, or planking, or running away... but you, yourself, has just debunked that argument.
**So what if Meta Knight is known to win competitions. Have you ever thought of it as a legal statistic, and not some "sore-loser" attitude?

Okay, I'm hoping you're not aiming this towards me.
Because I never mentioned my position on MK.

And I said "many people"
not "I".


All I said was that banning something makes it illegal for players to do.
Thats it.
Which did not need a paragraph reply.

 

[salaboB]

So, that's 4 out of the Top 10 who didn't change their mains. At all. Unfortunately I'm not too up to date when it comes to the Top 10, so I can't tell you whom else is in there... But I'm sure those people never switched from Meta Knight to their secondary, or switched from their main to Meta Knight for whatever reason.

Learn to read.

Seriously. I did not say they did switch to MK or from MK anywhere in any of these posts. In fact, in that last one I very, very specifically stated I was not saying that.

Go back and read them again. And again. And again. Until you finally understand what I'm actually saying.

Then maybe you can post a response worth answering.

 

[wiiman217]

Okay, I'm hoping you're not aiming this argument towards me.
Because I never mentioned my position on MK.

And I said "many people"
not "I".


All I said was that banning something makes it illegal for players to do.
Thats it.
Which did not need a paragraph reply.

lol no. I'm just saying what I think about this whole argument. Actually, I'm gonna stop posting under this thread thing. It's getting too ridiculous bye.

BTW! If anyone would want to trade Brawl codes, let me know... a while back, I was given a new Brawl code and my friends' list was erased... along with all my Miis. idk my Wii had a fit.

**Also, important question: What are the chances that a Manaphy will appear in Brawl?

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Okay, I'm hoping you're not aiming this towards me.
Because I never mentioned my position on MK.

And I said "many people"
not "I".

:flame:
Dude, only an illiterate wouldn't know you are Proban, assuming you haven't changed your mind.
:flame:

 

[Sosuke]

I'm indifferent.
I always have been.

I voted in the pole because you have to in order to see the results.
I voted yes because I vote yes banning everything. It makes me seem like a scrub. =P

 

[Red Arremer]

Learn to read.

I did read. You said that players were "forced" to not use Meta Knight because of a "stigma". You claim that Meta Knight only didn't dominate because people who considered choosing him didn't choose him.

Seriously. I did not say they did switch to MK or from MK anywhere in any of these posts. In fact, in that last one I very, very specifically stated I was not saying that.

You said, I quote:

That's because MK's being partially soft banned - people have been jumping on the "MK's overpowered" bandwagon and it forced others who might have used him to switch, for fear of being labelled as using an OP character.

Which Plairnkk corrected by posting that all of the Top Meta Knights (as in those that actually matter) did use Meta Knight. And noone of the people who play other characters but Meta Knight ever considered playing Meta Knight. That's a BS argument. You claim that the players at APEX would have chosen Meta Knight but were forced to not use him, because of your "soft ban". But this is not true.

For you, I will post the same thing 10 times again, just in advance, because I'm about to go to bed:
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.

Go back and read them again. And again. And again. Until you finally understand what I'm actually saying.

Then maybe you can post a response worth answering.

Yes. You say that the Non-MK players were forced to not choose Meta Knight. But that's not true. You're blatantly lying, and unlike Crashic, it's not falsehoods, but downright LIES.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
I'm almost 90% certain you can just click on the little numbers to see the results, and that you didn't need to vote to check. That's how I was following the progress before I voted Antiban.

And Salabob, you did talk about the stigma of MK being 'hated' would result in increased diversity against him, yet people seemed to have just picked their characters just to pick...
:flame:

 

[|RK|]

Teehee. I love it how everyone who is/seems pro-ban is now saying they don't care, or don't think he should be banned, or voted yes just because. They're making up excuses because they've obviously lost. Teehee

 

[Red Arremer]

Yea, seriously, guys.

Meta Knight lost.
Pro-Ban lost.

No Johns.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
That's funny. Even the commentators were joking about people wanting to ban infinites and Metaknight.

Actually, Spade, since Metaknight is going to be declared innocent soon, shouldn't he have Won? But yeah, not much to talk about now...
:flame:

 

[wiiman217]

I did read. You said that players were "forced" to not use Meta Knight because of a "stigma". You claim that Meta Knight only didn't dominate because people who considered choosing him didn't choose him.



You said, I quote:


Which Plairnkk corrected by posting that all of the Top Meta Knights (as in those that actually matter) did use Meta Knight. And noone of the people who play other characters but Meta Knight ever considered playing Meta Knight. That's a BS argument. You claim that the players at APEX would have chosen Meta Knight but were forced to not use him, because of your "soft ban". But this is not true.

For you, I will post the same thing 10 times again, just in advance, because I'm about to go to bed:
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.
The Top Meta Knights used Meta Knight.




Yes. You say that the Non-MK players were forced to not choose Meta Knight. But that's not true. You're blatantly lying, and unlike Crashic, it's not falsehoods, but downright LIES.

Spadefox... I love you for that hilarious shut-down argument right there. lol

 

[Marcbri]

Because someone can't have figured out M2K's patterns, or he didn't just have a bad day?

Right.



That's because MK's being partially soft banned - people have been jumping on the "MK's overpowered" bandwagon and it forced others who might have used him to switch, for fear of being labelled as using an OP character.

It's mitigating the actual impact he'd have had if there was no stigma against using him (The way the top melee characters didn't really get you looked down on for utilizing them)

don't you know that people who goes to tournaments play to win? if MK is their best character, they'll pick MK unless they're scrubs, but usually, scrubs aren't good at this game.

 

[Brinzy]

Anyway, I edited my post. Most of it is drivel, but the main point driving it was that the psychology behind using MK or not using MK due to peer pressure is not only unimportant but an almost non-existent factor because you're probably not going to find someone who:

- places in top 8 of tournaments consistently without MK
- wants to play MK
- does not play MK because of peer-pressure


So, a question...


Would you, the reader of this question, benefit, suffer, or not be affected if you were no longer allowed to play MK? Do not include something like MK removing your worst fights, thus making it easier for you (even though that's pretty logical, imo).

I just want to see what I can pull up.

 

[wiiman217]

Teehee. I love it how everyone who is/seems pro-ban is now saying they don't care, or don't think he should be banned, or voted yes just because. They're making up excuses because they've obviously lost. Teehee

100% agree

 

[Sosuke]

I'm pretty sure you have to vote to see the results. o_O

And lol, I've always been indifferent. Because it doesn't concern me. I'm not some top player.
How is that johns?

 

[salaboB]

I'm pretty sure you have to vote to see the results. o_O

There's a "View Poll Results" button you can click without having voted.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

I'm pretty sure you have to vote to see the results. o_O

And lol, I've always been indifferent. Because it doesn't concern me. I'm not some top player.
How is that johns?

:flame:
If you were indifferent, why not not vote? Or use the little "Not Sure" button, since that's a pretty good comparison to "Indifferent", rather than "Yes" or "No". You feel like you'd be a "Yes" and that you're hiding it. No more hidding, EmoTurtle! Come out of your Shell!

But yeah, there should have been (and I remember it fondly) an option for simply seeing who voted what.
:flame:

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm pretty sure you have to vote to see the results. o_O

And lol, I've always been indifferent. Because it doesn't concern me. I'm not some top player.
How is that johns?

I wasn't talking about you johning, honey. I was talking about salaboB, who is making up excuses (aka johns) to "explain" why Meta Knight didn't dominate the Top placements at APEX.

What RK Joker said - I took it as a joke, because it obviously wasn't meant dead serious.

 

[|RK|]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=825Io718UxM

^This is how I feel now. ^_^

 

[Sosuke]

Haha. If you ask anyone I've talked to about MK being banned, they'll say I don't care.
Anyone at all I've talked to about it. xD


If there wasn't that button, I didn't see it. My bad. =P
But it doesn't really matter.


I like voting yes to banning things, kay? >=o
I like being portrayed as a scrub.
Just look at my username.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Haha. If you ask anyone I've talked to about MK being banned, they'll say I don't care.
Anyone at all I've talked to about it. xD


If there wasn't that button, I didn't see it. My bad. =P
But it doesn't really matter.


I like voting yes to banning things, kay? >=o
I like being portrayed as a scrub.
Just look at my username.

:flame:
Neither Sasuke nor Bowser are scrubs. One is an Emo-...hoochie mama.... The other is a wanna-be bad-a Turtle. Check.
:flame:

 

[Brinzy]

Apathetic voting, huh?

Ok, I say we just tally up the posts of people that somewhat care, at least.

SoR: No. (1 vote)

 

[Sosuke]

A combination of two names? My username itself is scrubby.
Anyone would tell you that. >_>

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Apathetic voting, huh?

Ok, I say we just tally up the posts of people that somewhat care, at least.

SoR: No. (1 vote)

:flame:
The ability for people to have changed votes would definitely have helped. We should keep a true tally of people who vote one or the other, and ask the people who have posted to read all the stuff that's gone on and see if they still feel that way.

Da-D-Mon-109:No. (2 Vote)

Edit:EmoTurtle, I don't see what's wrong with Combining two names.... infact, you can get some quite cool names from this. Superman+Mario=SuperMario. Check.
:flame:

 

[salaboB]

Which Plairnkk corrected by posting that all of the Top Meta Knights (as in those that actually matter) did use Meta Knight. And noone of the people who play other characters but Meta Knight ever considered playing Meta Knight. That's a BS argument. You claim that the players at APEX would have chosen Meta Knight but were forced to not use him, because of your "soft ban". But this is not true.

Yes. They're not entirely immune to the attitude of those around them any more than anyone else. I think many likely chose to focus entirely on their main rather than at least secondarying MK due to the anti-MK attitudes that so pervade the community.

Will we know how many? Never. Does it particularily matter? Again, no. Was I simply explaining what happened to the "MK will sweep everything" argument? Yes.

Am I upset? Not at all. Laughing a little bit every time someone takes the time to post a full rant at me, but that's about it.

Do I think MK requires banning? No. Do I think the competitive community would be healthier and have better tournaments if he were banned? Yes. Do I think the overall metagame would progress faster and better if he wasn't sitting there making everyone worry about how to fight him? Yes.

Do I know he won't be banned unless someone finds a basic technique for him that nobody can beat? Yes. So am I really worried about it? Not in the least. I'm just pointing out some things the anti-ban side never really debunked except in their own heads.

Spoiler

10orlytopMKsplayMK

 

[AvaricePanda]

You aren't explaining your argument at all.

You said or heavily implied that APEX results were skewed because MK was soft-banned because of negative stigma. Spade and Plairnkk both said multiple times that all of the top MKs there STAYED MK.

What are you trying to say? That other MKs in the tourney who didn't place as well switched to a secondary or whatever? Why does that matter; they aren't top or high level players, and you haven't even said who these people are. You just thought of some unsupported statement and are trying to support it with, "There's no way to know for sure!"

You haven't supported your claims, which makes your claims a LOT HARDER TO BELIEVE. Plus, it doesn't matter if these low or midlow level MKs switch because of negative stigma, because they aren't top MKs, and top players are ultimately what matter here.

 

[|RK|]

Don't bother

SalaboB is actually on our side,

Apparently. He really would like MK to be banned

But he himself finds no reason.

No need to argue anymore men.

The tournament has proved us correct.

And that means everyone who voted "Not Sure"

And was waiting for Apex and Genesis

Is on our side as well.

So let's argue no more

And let this topic sink into the depths of hell

Where it belongs
​

​

 

[salaboB]

You aren't explaining your argument at all.

You said or heavily implied that APEX results were skewed because MK was soft-banned because of negative stigma. Spade and Plairnkk both said multiple times that all of the top MKs there STAYED MK.

What are you trying to say? That other MKs in the tourney who didn't place as well switched to a secondary or whatever? Why does that matter; they aren't top or high level players, and you haven't even said who these people are. You just thought of some unsupported statement and are trying to support it with, "There's no way to know for sure!"

You haven't supported your claims, which makes your claims a LOT HARDER TO BELIEVE. Plus, it doesn't matter if these low or midlow level MKs switch because of negative stigma, because they aren't top MKs, and top players are ultimately what matter here.

I said that the greatest impact was likely months ago. To clarify when I was referring to, that would be back during the second (Or right before it) ban MK thread -- when the people currently the best with non-MKs might have not sunk enough time into their characters to be completely devoted to them.

I also said:

Will we know how many? Never. Does it particularily matter? Again, no. Was I simply explaining what happened to the "MK will sweep everything" argument? Yes.

and

Do I know he won't be banned unless someone finds a basic technique for him that nobody can beat? Yes. So am I really worried about it? Not in the least. I'm just pointing out some things the anti-ban side never really debunked except in their own heads.

so I don't really care to go scrounging around in ancient history to find the references that make me believe this, or to prove it. Because it doesn't matter. At all.

 

[deepseadiva]

​

​

Beautiful.

 

[Kewkky]

​

Beautiful.

You, sir, just won the internets.

 

[Alus]

AWW MAN...

I wanted to continue watching Yuna destroy everyone...

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
I'm going to open a new thread about the vote, should it go in the general discussion or the tactical discussion? And it's not a debate, I'd prefer that to occur here. But because of this new event, as well as time passing in general, I'm sure people from both sides are ready to switch over to the other, not to mention that other options have not yet been listed as an option to vote.
:flame:

 

[|RK|]

Stop it you fool!

You'll ruin everything!

There is no need for another topic.

EVER.

Now stop posting and let this one die.
​

​

 

[salaboB]

I'm going to open a new thread about the vote, should it go in the general discussion or the tactical discussion? And it's not a debate, I'd prefer that to occur here. But because of this new event, as well as time passing in general, I'm sure people from both sides are ready to switch over to the other, not to mention that other options have not yet been listed as an option to vote.

This was the third major thread on the topic. There wasn't much new said on either side. There was a lot less in the way of actual points said for both sides.

If most people who were inclined to change their vote didn't do so for this one, many won't for anything new you could post.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
Still, I've seen several times how many people changed from "Not-Sure", "Ban", and "AntiBan", to "Ban", "AntiBan", and "Notsure". But they can't officially change said vote here. I want to see if anyone has changed their minds yet, especially with a major tournament just ending.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7360044&posted=1#post7360044 is thr thread, and it shall now remain in my signature.
:flame:

 

[Sosuke]

Lain is getting M2K'd. =(

 

[Kewkky]

:flame:
Still, I've seen several times how many people changed from "Not-Sure", "Ban", and "AntiBan", to "Ban", "AntiBan", and "Notsure". But they can't officially change said vote here. I want to see if anyone has changed their minds yet, especially with a major tournament just ending.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7360044&posted=1#post7360044 is thr thread, and it shall now remain in my signature.
:flame:

Geez, why'd you make another poll?

Even if people changed from YES to NO to MAYBE, the point is, THE POLL AND THE THREAD WON'T DO ANYTHING TO HELP IN THE BANNING OF MK. It's useless and a waste of time making a reply-thread to this one.

 

[Alus]

Even if people changed from YES to NO to MAYBE, the point is, THE POLL AND THE THREAD WON'T DO ANYTHING TO HELP IN THE BANNING OF MK. It's useless and a waste of time making a reply-thread to this one.

Im pretty sure that this was not the intention...