Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[~ Gheb ~]

I just wanted to throw in the fact that not one single argument of the pro-ban side is backed up with facts. NOT ONE CLAIM IS BACKED UP WITH ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO BE CONSIDERED CREDIBLE.

You say MK has no bad match-up's? PROVE IT.
Prove us that MK wins all those match-up's...No more theorycrafting BS. The metagame reached a level, where we have to assume that results are a reliable source (otherwise we wouldn't need to discuss this in the first place.).

Show us how - despite Ally beating every MK except M2K in tourney - MK is supposed to have the advantage over Snake. Why does Ally never lose to any other MK? How can Candy win a good bunch of tourneys with so many MKs around? Why does teh_spamerer - potentially the 2nd best player in the world - use Wario and not MK (his main character) against Ally (fun fact: teh_spamerer was sent into losers bracket by HRnut ... a Snake player) at CoT4? Why does DSF beat all MKs except Dojo and M2K? WHY SHOULD WE BELIEVE THAT SNAKE LOSES TO MK? SHOW SOME FACTS ... not random arguments like "Snake gets gimped olololol". Show us where and when MK wins against Snake at the highest level of play to such an amount that we can ignore Ally, DSF and Candy and say that MK indeed wins.

Show us some evidence on top Diddys loosing to MKs. NinjaLink has beaten M2K twice and ADHD doesn't loose to any other MK except him. Diddy Kong does consistently well vs any kind of MKs - at least the Diddys that are actually good.
Why should I believe in what the match-up threads say when the best MK and the best Diddy player both say it's 55/45 in Diddys favour (at least on some stages as ADHD says)? You better back up how MK has the advantage over Diddy othwise your argument fails.

Prove that the ICs loose. Match-up threads say it's 7/3 for MK but tourney results don't lie and looking at them it looks pretty even: I see Omniswell using ICs to counter MK (and doing well - he places top3 many times and it's in most cases lain and Anther who outplace him) and I see meep doing extremely well against them. Show how King Dedede looses when Atomsk - the best D3 - says it's even and never looses to any MK except M2K. On the other hand he won vs Dojo, which is highly unusual cosidering that Dojo is such a skilled player and his character is supposed to counter D3. Show how MK wins against Pika, when Anther beats so many of them (and we didn't even see how that 60% CG Pika has vs MK affects the match-up). Prove us that MK beats Kirby. M2K got beaten by ChuDat before (XII.Esticle) and ChuDat doesn't really loose the many MK ... Chillin is the only one I remember.
Prove how he beats Falco and Wario when DEHF and Fiction can take on every MK at the West Coast - even Tyrant and DSF.

Before you say he should be banned you should actually prove that he wins every match-up or has no bad ones. Before that, you shouldn't even talk about banning him.
Likewise I doubt that anybody can prove that it's him alone that overcentralises the metagame or that he makes too many character unviable (which is a blatant lie. Snake, Falco and D3 **** most characters a lot harder than MK does). Snake, D3 and Diddy together have more wins than MK does, despite such a large number of players flocking to MK, so overcentralization can't possibly be an issue.

 

[~^.NoiR.^~]

Who is even with MK? MK is, so anyone can go master an MK Ditto. Meaning that if you don't mind the competitive aspect of the game being lame as ****, then he shouldn't be banned. If you want a more variety of characters to be more even, then MK should be banned because he easily has a large advantage over everyone else.

I just wanted to throw in the fact that not one single argument of the pro-ban side is backed up with facts. NOT ONE CLAIM IS BACKED UP WITH ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO BE CONSIDERED CREDIBLE.

You say MK has no bad match-up's? PROVE IT.
Prove us that MK wins all those match-up's...No more theorycrafting BS. The metagame reached a level, where we have to assume that results are a reliable source (otherwise we wouldn't need to discuss this in the first place.).

Show us how - despite Ally beating every MK except M2K in tourney - MK is supposed to have the advantage over Snake. Why does Ally never lose to any other MK? How can Candy win a good bunch of tourneys with so many MKs around? Why does teh_spamerer - potentially the 2nd best player in the world - use Wario and not MK (his main character) against Ally (fun fact: teh_spamerer was sent into losers bracket by HRnut ... a Snake player) at CoT4? Why does DSF beat all MKs except Dojo and M2K? WHY SHOULD WE BELIEVE THAT SNAKE LOSES TO MK? SHOW SOME FACTS ... not random arguments like "Snake gets gimped olololol". Show us where and when MK wins against Snake at the highest level of play to such an amount that we can ignore Ally, DSF and Candy and say that MK indeed wins.

Show us some evidence on top Diddys loosing to MKs. NinjaLink has beaten M2K twice and ADHD doesn't loose to any other MK except him. Diddy Kong does consistently well vs any kind of MKs - at least the Diddys that are actually good.
Why should I believe in what the match-up threads say when the best MK and the best Diddy player both say it's 55/45 in Diddys favour (at least on some stages as ADHD says)? You better back up how MK has the advantage over Diddy othwise your argument fails.

Prove that the ICs loose. Match-up threads say it's 7/3 for MK but tourney results don't lie and looking at them it looks pretty even: I see Omniswell using ICs to counter MK (and doing well - he places top3 many times and it's in most cases lain and Anther who outplace him) and I see meep doing extremely well against them. Show how King Dedede looses when Atomsk - the best D3 - says it's even and never looses to any MK except M2K. On the other hand he won vs Dojo, which is highly unusual cosidering that Dojo is such a skilled player and his character is supposed to counter D3. Show how MK wins against Pika, when Anther beats so many of them (and we didn't even see how that 60% CG Pika has vs MK affects the match-up). Prove us that MK beats Kirby. M2K got beaten by ChuDat before (XII.Esticle) and ChuDat doesn't really loose the many MK ... Chillin is the only one I remember.
Prove how he beats Falco and Wario when DEHF and Fiction can take on every MK at the West Coast - even Tyrant and DSF.

Before you say he should be banned you should actually prove that he wins every match-up or has no bad ones. Before that, you shouldn't even talk about banning him.
Likewise I doubt that anybody can prove that it's him alone that overcentralises the metagame or that he makes too many character unviable (which is a blatant lie. Snake, Falco and D3 **** most characters a lot harder than MK does). Snake, D3 and Diddy together have more wins than MK does, despite such a large number of players flocking to MK, so overcentralization can't possibly be an issue.

You realize a pro playing for money will master everything to win their money. M2K will eventually learn how to **** every character in the game. Quote me on it.

 

[Veril]

You realize a pro playing for money will master everything to win their money. M2K will eventually learn how to **** every character in the game. Quote me on it.

You completely failed to respond to the above post. Also... no s***. The point Gheb made was that pros aren't necessarily using MK to counter MK.



Gheb... he's sexy. So I hear.

 

[Deathcarter]

So we should ban MK because of this? To make life simplier for Pit and ICs?

Diversity is NOT a good reason to ban something. But to say that diversity will barely increase is not something that can be said lightly.

I refered to characters when I made this post on page 291. More diversity is not justification when MK does not break the game. My point was that MK having good advantages against the mid/low tiers is not the same as DDD/Snake/Marth/G&W having good advantages against the mid/low tiers because MK defeats ALL of them quite soundly. Meanwhile, the other top tiers seperately only have 65:35 advantages against various mid/low tiers.

I was basically arguing that diversity would increase in a scene without MK (or that the "mid/low tiers would be equally destroyed in a tournament setting by the rest of the top tier" argument), not that it was justification to ban him.


At Gheb: So you beleive that the mid tiers (not necessarily the low tiers as they have quite a few 65:35 disadvantages), would not see ANY increase in users despite nothing to indicate that any other top tier single-handedly beat the majority/all of them with a 65:35 advantage?

 

[DMG]

Gheb, prove that Snake has the advantage on MK, same for Diddy. If Pro-ban people are told to prove that MK has no bad matchups, you can reverse it and ask the Anti-ban side to prove MK has bad matchups.

You point to Ally beating MK players, I point to the MK player who is actually as good as Ally in the first place who has demonstrated multiple times the MK vs Snake matchup is in MK's favor.

If we are talking about matchups at the top level, then why the hell are you pointing to Ally beating other MK players who are not at the top level? Just because High level MK's lose to a Top Snake doesn't mean Snake at the TOP level actually beats MK.

If Ally loses, people just go "Oh well M2K is just a better player than Ally". Well, who is better with Snake than him? If he is the absolute best representation of this character we have, then that points to Snake losing vs MK, unless M2K is LEAGUES ahead of everyone else always, which obviously isn't the case since the Anti-ban side is so quick to point out he lost to "such and such characters" x amount of times.

Either M2K is being challenged by people fairly close to his skill level, and he is demonstrating how MK has a slight edge on those characters, or those characters have huge advantages on MK but M2K is so good that he can overcome them comfortably. Or it suggest that these players do not have MK experience, which clearly isn't the case with how popular he is in tournament play, especially at the upper levels.

 

[Yuna]

I just wanted to throw in the fact that not one single argument of the pro-ban side is backed up with facts. NOT ONE CLAIM IS BACKED UP WITH ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO BE CONSIDERED CREDIBLE.

You say MK has no bad match-up's? PROVE IT.
Prove us that MK wins all those match-up's...No more theorycrafting BS. The metagame reached a level, where we have to assume that results are a reliable source (otherwise we wouldn't need to discuss this in the first place.).

Show us how - despite Ally beating every MK except M2K in tourney - MK is supposed to have the advantage over Snake. Why does Ally never lose to any other MK? How can Candy win a good bunch of tourneys with so many MKs around? Why does teh_spamerer - potentially the 2nd best player in the world - use Wario and not MK (his main character) against Ally (fun fact: teh_spamerer was sent into losers bracket by HRnut ... a Snake player) at CoT4? Why does DSF beat all MKs except Dojo and M2K? WHY SHOULD WE BELIEVE THAT SNAKE LOSES TO MK? SHOW SOME FACTS ... not random arguments like "Snake gets gimped olololol". Show us where and when MK wins against Snake at the highest level of play to such an amount that we can ignore Ally, DSF and Candy and say that MK indeed wins.

Show us some evidence on top Diddys loosing to MKs. NinjaLink has beaten M2K twice and ADHD doesn't loose to any other MK except him. Diddy Kong does consistently well vs any kind of MKs - at least the Diddys that are actually good.
Why should I believe in what the match-up threads say when the best MK and the best Diddy player both say it's 55/45 in Diddys favour (at least on some stages as ADHD says)? You better back up how MK has the advantage over Diddy othwise your argument fails.

Prove that the ICs loose. Match-up threads say it's 7/3 for MK but tourney results don't lie and looking at them it looks pretty even: I see Omniswell using ICs to counter MK (and doing well - he places top3 many times and it's in most cases lain and Anther who outplace him) and I see meep doing extremely well against them. Show how King Dedede looses when Atomsk - the best D3 - says it's even and never looses to any MK except M2K. On the other hand he won vs Dojo, which is highly unusual cosidering that Dojo is such a skilled player and his character is supposed to counter D3. Show how MK wins against Pika, when Anther beats so many of them (and we didn't even see how that 60% CG Pika has vs MK affects the match-up). Prove us that MK beats Kirby. M2K got beaten by ChuDat before (XII.Esticle) and ChuDat doesn't really loose the many MK ... Chillin is the only one I remember.
Prove how he beats Falco and Wario when DEHF and Fiction can take on every MK at the West Coast - even Tyrant and DSF.

Before you say he should be banned you should actually prove that he wins every match-up or has no bad ones. Before that, you shouldn't even talk about banning him.
Likewise I doubt that anybody can prove that it's him alone that overcentralises the metagame or that he makes too many character unviable (which is a blatant lie. Snake, Falco and D3 **** most characters a lot harder than MK does). Snake, D3 and Diddy together have more wins than MK does, despite such a large number of players flocking to MK, so overcentralization can't possibly be an issue.

While some of the points you brought up are a bit iffy (i.e., I believe they can actually prove it), the majority of it stands (as the metagame is at the moment).

Facts and logic have never been the strong side of whichever side I'm opposing in debates here on SWF. Haven't you learned that by now? Also, I, and many others, have said these very same things since the very first "Let ban MK"-thread.

It didn't help then and it probably won't help now. Some will make a valiant try and talk in circles and strawman reality. Most others will just ignore your post, hoping that it'll go away if they pretend like they didn't see it.

In fact, since we've tried this approach time and again and it has failed, yet you're utilizing it once more, doesn't that mean that you're insane?

Who is even with MK? MK is, so anyone can go master an MK Ditto. Meaning that if you don't mind the competitive aspect of the game being lame as ****, then he shouldn't be banned. If you want a more variety of characters to be more even, then MK should be banned because he easily has a large advantage over everyone else.

You just quoted a post demanding you prove this very thing and reply with... no evidence whatsover!

You realize a pro playing for money will master everything to win their money. M2K will eventually learn how to **** every character in the game. Quote me on it.

This makes zero sense. Are you saying M2K is the only pro playing for money? Because what's standing in the way of anyone else mastering their character to such an extent M2K won't be able to **** them?

And that's ultimately the ultimate "You can't ban him"-argument. You still have the choice to main many characters others than MK and still stand a reasonable chance at winning tournaments. In fact, many people are doing just that.

You're just strawmanning reality now. Oh hey, my prediction came through (I replied to Gheb_01's post before replying to yours)! How shocking!

I refered to characters when I made this post on page 291. More diversity is not justification when MK does not break the game. My point was that MK having good advantages against the mid/low tiers is not the same as DDD/Snake/Marth/G&W having good advantages against the mid/low tiers because MK defeats ALL of them quite soundly. Meanwhile, the other top tiers seperately only have 65:35 advantages against various mid/low tiers.

I was basically arguing that diversity would increase in a scene without MK (or that the "mid/low tiers would be equally destroyed in a tournament setting by the rest of the top tier" argument), not that it was justification to ban him.


At Gheb: So you beleive that the mid tiers (not necessarily the low tiers as they have quite a few 65:35 disadvantages), would not see ANY increase in users despite nothing to indicate that any other top tier single-handedly beat the majority/all of them with a 65:35 advantage?

Nobody is making the argument that there would be no increased diversity. We're saying that the unviable characters would still remain unviable, just less so.

We're also saying that their inrease in non-viable-viability would not justify the ban.

Gheb, prove that Snake has the advantage on MK, same for Diddy. If Pro-ban people are told to prove that MK has no bad matchups, you can reverse it and ask the Anti-ban side to prove MK has bad matchups.

You point to Ally beating MK players, I point to the MK player who is actually as good as Ally in the first place who has demonstrated multiple times the MK vs Snake matchup is in MK's favor.

If we are talking about matchups at the top level, then why the hell are you pointing to Ally beating other MK players who are not at the top level? Just because High level MK's lose to a Top Snake doesn't mean Snake at the TOP level actually beats MK.

If Ally loses, people just go "Oh well M2K is just a better player than Ally". Well, who is better with Snake than him? If he is the absolute best representation of this character we have, then that points to Snake losing vs MK, unless M2K is LEAGUES ahead of everyone else always, which obviously isn't the case since the Anti-ban side is so quick to point out he lost to "such and such characters" x amount of times.

Either M2K is being challenged by people fairly close to his skill level, and he is demonstrating how MK has a slight edge on those characters, or those characters have huge advantages on MK but M2K is so good that he can overcome them comfortably. Or it suggest that these players do not have MK experience, which clearly isn't the case with how popular he is in tournament play, especially at the upper levels.

Are you saying M2K is the only good Meta Knight who has taken his metagame to the top of the ladder in the U.S. since Ally can and has beaten pretty much all other MKs at one time or another in the recent past (correct me if I'm wrong on this)?

Also, in these, apparentely numerous and infamous, sets of Ally vs. M2K, does M2K beat Ally resoundedly every single match or is it more towards the even side where either side could win and where Ally actually takes matches a lot of the time?

Because if we're going to use "If you can't beat M2K, then your character obviously has a disadvantageous match-up against Meta Knight" as an argument, you just proved that every single character in Melee has a disadvantage against Marth! And by extension, Marth must be banned for it!

 

[da K.I.D.]

Are you saying M2K is the only good Meta Knight who has taken his metagame to the top of the ladder in the U.S. since Ally can and has beaten pretty much all other MKs at one time or another in the recent past (correct me if I'm wrong on this)?

I cant speak for DMG but in a way, yes I would say that.

Also, in these, apparentely numerous and infamous, sets of Ally vs. M2K, does M2K beat Ally resoundedly every single match or is it more towards the even side where either side could win and where Ally actually takes matches a lot of the time?

I remember after one time they played, M2k got upset because the games where he two stocked ally and "played really well" werent recorded. Im pretty sure M2K beat him pretty handily every time they played.

Because if we're going to use "If you can't beat M2K, then your character obviously has a disadvantageous match-up against Meta Knight" as an argument, you just proved that every single character in Melee has a disadvantage against Marth! And by extension, Marth must be banned for it!

cue mango's jigglypuff

 

[Binx]

People just want to ban MK because they aren't patient enough to actually punish when he has OPENINGS, they try to punish when there aren't any and get punished by his quicker attacks, he is easier to play because you don't have to be as conscious of lag when attacking.

It isn't that he is unbeatable, its that between two people of equal yet low skill the meta will win, because he won't have as many easy openings, or fast up b kills. At a high level of play matchups become more even because better non meta players leave less openings and take advantage of the mistakes that a MK is bound to make. I'm not going to deny that it isn't more technically difficult though.

 

[Yuna]

I cant speak for DMG but in a way, yes I would say that.

OK, just to reiterate:
da K.I.D. just claimed M2K is the only good MK playing MK at the top of the metagame.

I remember after one time they played, M2k got upset because the games where he two stocked ally and "played really well" werent recorded. Im pretty sure M2K beat him pretty handily every time they played.

I want someone who's actually seen the matches to answer this question.

cue mango's jigglypuff

It's a trap! And you fell for it, as usual!

So Jigglypuff is viable and wins against Marth because Mango won against M2K once? Then I say Diddy Kong has an advantage against Meta Knight because Ninjalink beat M2K twice!

 

[DMG]

There are GOOD MK's and GOOD Snake players that perform well in tournaments, but they are UNDER the top level.

What I am saying is that matchups are determined by comparing both characters at their peak/top of the metagame, usually human wise since no one is perfect obviously. M2K is the best demonstrator of MK's abilities, unless you are saying there is a MK out there better than M2K, which no one has proven so far. M2K is the absolute best MK out there, you would be incorrect to assert otherwise without HEAVY results to back such a claim up.

Ally is regarded as the best demonstrator of Snake's abilities. Ally and M2K have collided in tournament play multiple times, with M2K coming out on top.



This suggests that Snake loses to MK at top level play. Correct me if it does not lol.

 

[Kyari]

What I am saying is that matchups are determined by comparing both characters at their peak/top of the metagame, usually human wise since no one is perfect obviously.

Not to discredit your statement regarding Snake vs MK, but if this is how you realistically determine matchups, then M2K is going to obviously make any character look broken or have advantaged matchups on the entire cast...

EDIT: Including MK vs MK, which will have been determined 60:40. >_>.

 

[MarthFanatique]

Is there a point to all of this ranting and raving anyway? For a moment I shall stand the ground of a third-party objector. So what if Metaknight is banned? People are still going to use him. In addition, besides the tourneys in SWF, Metaknight will most likely still be allowed into tourneys elsewhere. What then? He will perhaps win many of them (or at least score very high like how he does now). All in all, Metaknight will probably not be banned in SWF tourneys; it just won't happen so matter how "broken" he is. And, even if he is, he will still be played in other tourneys and then tier lists will collide when there is such a discrepancy. What's the point of arguing? What will happen, will happen. Que será será. All that one can do is complain; what will be done, then? This problem has no simple fix, and to make it simpler and resolved with less arguing, Metaknight will most likely stay.

 

[Yuna]

There are GOOD MK's and GOOD Snake players that perform well in tournaments, but they are UNDER the top level.

What I am saying is that matchups are determined by comparing both characters at their peak/top of the metagame, usually human wise since no one is perfect obviously. M2K is the best demonstrator of MK's abilities, unless you are saying there is a MK out there better than M2K, which no one has proven so far. M2K is the absolute best MK out there, you would be incorrect to assert otherwise without HEAVY results to back such a claim up.

Ally is regarded as the best demonstrator of Snake's abilities. Ally and M2K have collided in tournament play multiple times, with M2K coming out on top.

This suggests that Snake loses to MK at top level play. Correct me if it does not lol.

This is assuming that Ally isn't just simply a worse player than M2K. Because Individual Skill > Individual Match-up > Tiers.

Now I'm not knocking Ally or saying that he sucks. I'm saying that you cannot determine an entire match-up based on how well a single person does against a single other person.

 

[DMG]

Not to discredit your statement regarding Snake vs MK, but if this is how you realistically determine matchups, then M2K is going to obviously make any character look broken or have advantaged matchups on the entire cast...

EDIT: Including MK vs MK, which will have been determined 60:40. >_>.

Ditto's are 50:50, you know that lol.

If other MK's lose to Ally, and then M2K beats him, why are we being told to ignore/discount what he does/how he plays just because he's really good and instead focus on the MK's who lose? I thought we were supposed to compare the top of each character's metagame, not try to drop a bit in skill and find a MK player who might not even be equal to the top of a competing character.

 

[Kyari]

Nah, I'm not saying we do that or that we should do that, but I'm trying to make a point - when you interpret matchups you have to objectively do so, and not point to player skill in any form, it just blurs them.

EDIT: Meaning you can't point to times when M2K loses either, if you're simply trying to support or refute a position regarding matchup ratio. Sorry anti-ban, but you can't point out NL/ADHD vs M2K or anything like that.

 

[Praxis]

DMG, if you ask Ally on AIM, he will tell you that the matchup is MK's favor. He's just better than the other MK's/they're doing it wrong.

MK has more options than Snake in each situation. Ally is just good at picking the right options.

 

[IC3R]

M2K can make any character look broken?

.......he should starting maining Captain Falcon. Falcon for non-G tier.

 

[Kyari]

MK has more options than Snake in each situation. Ally is just good at picking the right options.

This. You have to look at options, they're what a character can do. And MK has an option for everything, which is partially offset by his lightweight/lack of aerials that can KO from the stage. If this game were to have been competitively balanced and MK were to have retained his moveset, he would be even lighter or his smashes would be about 2/3 their strength or something.

 

[DMG]

DMG, if you ask Ally on AIM, he will tell you that the matchup is MK's favor. He's just better than the other MK's/they're doing it wrong.

MK has more options than Snake in each situation. Ally is just good at picking the right options.

Trust me, I can tell lol. M2K and Ally both agree that MK has the advantage there.

Kyari, I know obviously M2K is better than probably anyone, so him winning or losing is a bit skewed, but he does demonstrate the abilities of MK a lot better than the MK's who lose to Ally. I don't think we should focus only at all the MK's who lose to Ally when M2K has proven that MK does fine.

That seems like we are ignoring what MK can really do/what his matchups really are just because M2K is really good.

 

[Kyari]

And I never supported pointing to Ally or anyone else who is exceptionally good with their non-MK characters. The only reason I said anything is because you tried saying that according to the performance of the best MK player, MK has an advantage on Snake.

 

[Yuna]

By the way, in case it wasn't clear, I am not arguing that Snake has the advantage in the Snake vs. MK match-up. I'm pointing out flawed arguments.

 

[DMG]

Kyari I was just saying that Gheb was screaming about Snake vs MK and how Ally beats all the MK's but M2K, and I just wanted to point out that I don't see why we have to completely throw out M2K's results, especially if his results supposedly contradict the "populous" (Snake beating MK everywhere apparently).

I do agree that his results shouldn't be the end to everything, but if he consistently beats the top player of a character that is claimed to either have an advantage or even matchup with MK, then I think we should look deeper into that instead of the "Lol M2K is just a better player" argument. The same goes for Diddy and other characters that people frequently claim go even with MK.

 

[bludhoundz]

And I never supported pointing to Ally or anyone else who is exceptionally good with their non-MK characters. The only reason I said anything is because you tried saying that according to the performance of the best MK player, MK has an advantage on Snake.

No.

He tried saying that according to the performance of the best MK player AND the best Snake player, MK has an advantage.

 

[Praxis]

Someday I'm going to find a really bad way to argue that "The Sky Is Blue", just to see if Yuni argues with me.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Also, I am still very pretty.

i thought you were just pretty...
Pics or it didn't happen.

 

[Kyari]

No.

He tried saying that according to the performance of the best MK player AND the best Snake player, MK has an advantage.

Haha, well sure you can add that in there. Doesn't change anything.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DMG, why should I have to prove that MK and Snake are even? I'm not the one who wants to remove MK from the game. If the pro-ban side wants to get rid of something they need a valid reason to do so. If they want to ban MK they need to prove that he deserves it. I'm not even outright saying that MK and Snake are even. I'm only saying that the pro-ban side needs to prove me wrong (as well as prove that all the other characters loose as well) with facts and all before they can ban him. All I heard so far is theory crafting, which isn't helping their case.

Also, i'm convinced that a Snake player could go even with M2Ks MK, if the Snake player was as good as him. I also think that Diddy, Kirby, Pikachu and Falco potentially have the advantage. It's just that not enough players play these characters on a high level (especially compared to MK).

 

[da K.I.D.]

OK, just to reiterate:
da K.I.D. just claimed M2K is the only good MK playing MK at the top of the metagame.

can you prove me wrong?

It's a trap! And you fell for it, as usual!

So Jigglypuff is viable and wins against Marth because Mango won against M2K once? Then I say Diddy Kong has an advantage against Meta Knight because Ninjalink beat M2K twice!

not exactly.

I cant use exact figures but i will say to the best of what I know.

mango has beaten M2K with JP in the last 3/4 different tourneys in the last 1.5 years. mango won those tourneys.

NL beat M2K in two sets in two tourneys. Not only did M2K still win those tourneys. But the last time that happened was about 6 months ago. the last time NL beat M2K in tourney M2K still won that tourney beating him in finals. Not only that but they have played at least 3 times in tourney since then and M2K has won each time.
do you see how that correlation doesnt really work?

 

[Yuna]

i thought you were just pretty...
Pics or it didn't happen.

I can't find that really pretty one. I'll see what I can do once when I get back to Sweden (I'm currently in London).

mango has beaten M2K with JP in the last 3/4 different tourneys in the last 1.5 years. mango won those tourneys.

But would you say that this is proof that Jigglypuff has the advantage in the match-up? Or simply that it's a pretty even one/one where Jigglypuff holds the disadvantage which Mango just keeps having to come up on top of?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Also, i'm convinced that a Snake player could go even with M2Ks MK, if the Snake player was as good as him. I also think that Diddy, Kirby, Pikachu and Falco potentially have the advantage. It's just that not enough players play these characters on a high level (especially compared to MK).

Why would anybody play Kirby, if theres the chance that somebody could pick marth. But if you play MK you cover all the bases.

Why would you play falco, if theres a chance somebody could go shiek or olimar on you? you could just play MK instead

why would people play pikachu, there are diddys out there... thats what MK is for.

Why would you play other characters when you can just pick MK and and never have to worry about playing a bad matchup?

 

[Kage Me]

Why would you play other characters when you can just pick MK and and never have to worry about playing a bad matchup?

Same reason you main Sonic.

 

[DMG]

DMG, why should I have to prove that MK and Snake are even? I'm not the one who wants to remove MK from the game. If the pro-ban side wants to get rid of something they need a valid reason to do so. If they want to ban MK they need to prove that he deserves it. I'm not even outright saying that MK and Snake are even. I'm only saying that the pro-ban side needs to prove me wrong (as well as prove that all the other characters loose as well) with facts and all before they can ban him. All I heard so far is theory crafting, which isn't helping their case.

Also, i'm convinced that a Snake player could go even with M2Ks MK, if the Snake player was as good as him. I also think that Diddy, Kirby, Pikachu and Falco potentially have the advantage. It's just that not enough players play these characters on a high level (especially compared to MK).

If you want to keep MK in the game, you should be able to prove that he has bad matchups or something holding him back from needing a ban. You don't have to prove specifically that Snake vs MK is even or in Snake's favor, but you should be able to prove that MK somewhere on the board has a bad matchup, otherwise he should go since he has no bad matchups. We try to prove he has no bad matchups, while you try to prove he does.

You think Snake COULD beat/go even with M2K if he got a player representing him like M2K does for MK, but think about that statement. Thinking a character can beat another character if the player was as good as M2K is like theory crafting. "Well I think Falco could beat MK, if he was as good as M2K." That's theory lol.

If I point to results that suggest that Snake loses to MK, you cannot retort that "Oh well I think Snake COULD win if the player was as good as M2K". I would be providing real results while you would be the one giving theory.

 

[Red Arremer]

@da KID
Because MK only has a slight advantage on each of those characters.

Why would you pick MK against Dedede if you could use Falco?
Why would you pick MK against Snake if you could use Dedede?
Why would you pick MK against GaW if you could use Snake?

Additionally to what Kage Me said, of course.

 

[Nic64]

you should be able to prove that MK somewhere on the board has a bad matchup, otherwise he should go since he has no bad matchups

Not really, whether or not being disadvantaged against no one is valid ban criteria is very subjective.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Same reason you main Sonic.

We are ALL scrubs.

I can't find that really pretty one. I'll see what I can do once when I get back to Sweden (I'm currently in London).

By the way are you going to Otakon this year?

But would you say that this is proof that Jigglypuff has the advantage in the match-up? Or simply that it's a pretty even one/one where Jigglypuff holds the disadvantage which Mango just keeps having to come up on top of?

I would say that M2K was distracted because jigglypuff looks like a giant edible marshmellow.
As a result he felt hungry and he feared destroying the puffball because he likes marshmellows.

This is irrefutable and I can guarantee EVERY top player will agree.

 

[DMG]

@da KID
Because MK only has a slight advantage on each of those characters.

Why would you pick MK against Dedede if you could use Falco?
Why would you pick MK against Snake if you could use Dedede?
Why would you pick MK against GaW if you could use Snake?

Blind pick time:

"Ok my opponent is gonna go Dedede, Imma go Falco"

"Crap he chose Marth, I lose"

"Ok my opponent will go Snake, Imma go Dedede"

"Crap he chose Falco, I lose"

"Ok my opponent is picking G&W, Imma go Snake"

"Crap he chose Dedede, I lose"

"Ok my opponent is gonna go Dedede, Imma go MK"

"Sweet, he went Marth/Dedede/Snake/x character, I am just fine"

EVEN if you don't do a double blind pick, let's say both players are at the character selection screen. You hover on Snake, he hovers on Dedede. You move over to Falco, he moves over to G&W. You move to Marth, he goes to Snake. You move to Dedede, etc. If someone picks MK, they don't have to switch over. They CAN choose to if they think they can get a larger advantage, like Snake on G&W, but that's not the point. The point is that MK is a safe pick regardless of what your opponent chooses, and if things go down to a double blind pick he's easily the safest choice.

 

[Turbo Ether]

@da KID
Because MK only has a slight advantage on each of those characters.

Why would you pick MK against Dedede if you could use Falco?
Why would you pick MK against Snake if you could use Dedede?
Why would you pick MK against GaW if you could use Snake?

Additionally to what Kage Me said, of course.

Why are those people using Dedede, Snake, and GaW in the first place, when they could just go MK and theoretically not be counterpicked? Also, MK is just as hard if not harder for Snake as Dedede is, imo.

 

[Nic64]

Blind pick time:

"Ok my opponent is gonna go Dedede, Imma go Falco"

"Crap he chose Marth, I lose"

"Ok my opponent will go Snake, Imma go Dedede"

"Crap he chose Falco, I lose"

"Ok my opponent is picking G&W, Imma go Snake"

"Crap he chose Dedede, I lose"

"Ok my opponent is gonna go Dedede, Imma go MK"

"Sweet, he went Marth/Dedede/Snake/x character, I am just fine"

wow, I didn't know smash bros. was literally rock paper scissors, it's like you don't even have to play the games out or anyth-oh wait

 

[Noble-]

This thread is pointless.

Banning Metaknight won't do a thing.

It won't stop people like M2K, DSF, DEHF, Fiction etc from winning tournaments.

It'll just alleviate the pain from "Scrubs" who don't main Metaknight from playing "Scrubs" who main Metaknight.

Edit: GET ***** BRAWL PEOPLE! FROM ONE OF YOUR OWN ELITE! MaNg0 and Mew2King double team FTW!

 

[Binx]

everyone most of the people here really dismisses skill too much, it matters a lot more than the character.