Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[Yuna]

Since the hypothetical time of SBR saying they won't ban it.

And your evidence for this is, as opposed to, you know, what actually goes on at tournaments?

lol @ you thinking they wont...

Lol @ you thinking that it requires so little timing you can master it without having ever touched D3 before.

 

[Flayl]

Oh, okay, people can main DK because people might not know about the infinite. Uh...

You missed the point, if people win with their mains, they're obviously not going to switch to dedede. If you lose to Bowser/DK in a set, you're a gigantic scrub or you have been living under a rock. There, fixed.

 

[Flayl]

Lol @ you thinking that it requires so little timing you can master it without having ever touched D3 before.

Brick sticking.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Congratulations, you showed us vids of a pretty bad-to-meh MK (judging from the 1st vid, I stopped watching half-way through) who does tons of random unsafe BS time and again and who cannot deal with the Sonic/MK match-up (he probably isn't familiar with it). And?

and if that good player was DK and the person who didnt know the character or the matchup was D3, D3 would still win.

and watch the second vid, all 4 players in both vids are well known, good players and you trying to discredit the players to down play the point that that the matchup isnt as bad as you and adum make it out to be doesnt serve any purpose.

well, you obviously know that it requires so little timing you can master it without having ever touched D3 before since youve done it before.

thanks for seeing it my way for once.

 

[rehab]

DK does well against Falco and Snake, relatively speaking (mostly Snake)

 

[Brinzy]

If you lose to Bowser/DK in a set, you're a gigantic scrub or you have been living under a rock.

If you're playing someone who mains Bowser/DK and if you don't play DDD, you could potentially lose one of the matches to one of those characters, thus they're part of that defeat that you might obtain. That would not make you a scrub. I don't know anyone who goes all Bowser/DK and consistently wins. Who does that?

and if that good player was DK and the person who didnt know the character or the matchup was D3, D3 would still win.

Wait... wait... what?

A DDD who doesn't know the character or match-up when it comes to DK... suddenly knows about the infinite? Also, if they really don't know the fight, why would they be CPing DDD against DK? Because, you know, a DDD main would probably know the match-up.

 

[Flayl]

If you're playing someone who mains Bowser/DK and if you don't play DDD, you could potentially lose one of the matches to one of those characters, thus they're part of that defeat that you might obtain. That would not make you a scrub. I don't know anyone who goes all Bowser/DK and consistently wins. Who does that?

Hence why I said set. Reading is good.

 

[Brinzy]

Hence why I said set. Reading is good.

Hence why I said "one of the matches." Reading is good.

Or, forgive my horrible use of gaming terminology: one of the "games." Does that sound better for you?

 

[bobson]

Lol @ you thinking that it requires so little timing you can master it without having ever touched D3 before.

Set c-stick to grab.

I did it on the first try. It really is easy enough for anyone to be able to master it without ever using Dedede.


...but that's irrelevant, because if it's humanly possible, it will be learned, right?

 

[Flayl]

Hence why I said "one of the matches." Reading is good.

Yes, thus conveying you did not understand a very simple sentence, which baffles me.

 

[Brinzy]

I said if you're playing best 2 out of 3 against someone who claims to be a Bowser/DK main, you could lose at least one of those games against Bowser/DK. I also don't know anyone who wins just by using one of those characters only in an environment where DDD can be counterpicked. Basically, if you lose a set to someone who has used one of the two against you, it doesn't really make you a scrub. Yes, I know you're trying to imply that Bowser/DK is being used the whole set, but that pretty much never happens anyway... well, if I were to assume that your logic of "everyone CPs against Bowser/DK with DDD", that is. So they're being used once and they can beat you that one time.

 

[adumbrodeus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmdOa6Y5IYQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pFNJtlAeRQ

you shut the hell up right now and you never speak again.

you have no idea what the hell you are talking about and you should have speaking privledges revoked if you really think something this dumb.

You know absolutely nothing of this character and as such you shouldnt be opening your mouth about things you really dont have any knowledge about. I thought you knew better...

show me 1 vids of this happening with the DK D3 matchup where the infinite is allowed and known where the disadvantaged character wins.

*sigh* you're missing the point, so 1 out of every 100 players win the fox vs. pikachu match-up, practically speaking, is that SO DIFFERENT from 1 out of 1000? It doesn't even result in 1 single solitary point more in tournament standings.

Sure, it's a difference, but it's a USELESS distinction.

Yes, useless. And if you're banning something for pragmatic purposes (an "unwinnable" match-up) as opposed to theoretical purposes, you better have a distinction that has considerable pragmatic effect that separates what you ban and what you don't.


That has not been provided.

...but that's irrelevant, because if it's humanly possible, it will be learned, right?

Eh, he's not saying that it matters as far as whether it should be banned, he's just saying that it's stupid to say that you can automatically expect everyone to learn it in the timeframe they're giving, especially in-set.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Lol @ you thinking that it requires so little timing you can master it without having ever touched D3 before.

Uhm Yuna, it DOES take very little time to master it, All you need to do is set X to Grab, and when D3's butt hits the ground, push X twice, and you have the infinite, its not that hard to do. Any competent smasher could do it. OR if the D3 wants to be a real ***, set C stick to grab, and even a newbi could master it, as you don't get the shield glitch with the C stick if the timing is off.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

And it's not like everyone's picking up D3 just to infinite other D3's, DK and Bowser, despite what you seem to think. Because there are other characters who break DK and Bowser. If they already main one of them, they might spend more time perfecting those characters instead of picking up D3 just to counter two rarely used characters.

DK's worst match besides infinite DDD is a 6-4 with Wario, he has really good matchups. No one else breaks him.

I'm sorry, must I repeat myself:
Since when does everyone and their mother who goes to tournament already know beforehand know to infinite DK consistently?

Since when can it be mastered in 5 minutes during tournament matches?

You underestimate how easy it is to learn.

Set c-stick to grab.

This is why. It takes 0 seconds of practice. Just switch your controls and you have an instant infinite. Even without it the timing is easy enough to learn that you really probably can learn it during a match. For a good player it takes an incredibly small amount of practice.

I do agree with your general points your trying to make though. It is true that not everyone counters DDD against DK, for whatever reason, and so even with this in play he is a tournament viable character, just not a very good one depending on your region. You just seem to underestimate how easy this is to learn. Someone who doesn't even play DDD really can beat a DK theoretically, it just isn't happening. I sincerely hope it stays that way.

 

[1048576]

So ****ing what? Every character except MK can be counterpicked. Every character needs a secondary for when the opponent invariably chooses that counterpick. You don't get to ban the counterpick just because it's DK and not Fox. Deal with it.

 

[RDK]

So we can't main the characters we love only because of some stupid glitch that breaks some characters and could just get banned? I lol'd.

There's no real reason to not ban it. Some people just think everything has to stay in the game, which is stupid, if it's something like D3s infinite.

Something like that shouldn't exist. It is just a glitch. An error from the game makers. So let's just ban it already.

Just because it doesn't affect all characters it shouldn't be banned? Seriously? This is just stupid.

For the sake of the conversation at this point, I now main Fox.

I propose we ban Pikachu because, for all intents and purposes, he makes Fox unviable.

 

[gantrain05]

So ****ing what? Every character except MK can be counterpicked. Every character needs a secondary for when the opponent invariably chooses that counterpick. You don't get to ban the counterpick just because it's DK and not Fox. Deal with it.

your a scrooge, why are you so angry all the time lol.

anyways, yeah DK is easy as **** to infinite, i don't play DDD at all and after literally like 3 tries i was able to do it consistantly, just don't play DK vs DDD if your really that worried about it, learn olimar, or fox or somethin.

oh and ^ that is the reason RDK is a smash debater lmao, too good man.

 

[Flayl]

For the sake of the conversation at this point, I now main Fox.

I propose we ban Pikachu because, for all intents and purposes, he makes Fox unviable.

hahahaha look HE'S ALREADY REPEATING HIMSELF YET AGAIN

Man you are the best debater ever!

 

[RDK]

hahahaha look HE'S ALREADY REPEATING HIMSELF YET AGAIN

Man you are the best debater ever!

We've been repeating the same arguments over and over for the past 50 or so pages. Where the hell have you been?

And maybe it's because the pro-ban camp has yet to come up with a satisfying answer to any of our points.

 

[Flayl]

We've been repeating the same arguments over and over for the past 50 or so pages. Where the hell have you been?

And maybe it's because the pro-ban camp has yet to come up with a satisfying answer to any of our points.

That's because you're ignoring them, just like i'm going to use the ignore function on you now.

 

[Brinzy]

Ok then, I'm completely ignorant.

Why does it deserve to be banned? Is it because it's too easy and unnecessarily destroys a few characters? I'm guessing there's another reason behind it.

Enlighten me, so I don't have to go back and misinterpret everything as you claim I do, or forever hold your peace.

 

[Chimera]

I'm a D3 main, so I could be biased. But I don't really see a reason to ban this. It's pretty small.

 

[Flayl]

Ok then, I'm completely ignorant.

Why does it deserve to be banned? Is it because it's too easy and unnecessarily destroys a few characters? I'm guessing there's another reason behind it.

Enlighten me, so I don't have to go back and misinterpret everything as you claim I do, or forever hold your peace.

The reason, as I stated before, is that no matter what the Bowser/DK does, they cannot win. Ever. It's not because it's hard, it's because it's impossible. It also helps that the technique has no other uses, which makes the ban discrete. That last one is not a reason in itself, but it's important to note Dedede does not lose anything against other characters because of the ban.

 

[Flayl]

I'm a D3 main, so I could be biased. But I don't really see a reason to ban this. It's pretty small.

As much as I hate it, this is really the only point that can be contested about the ban. It's not whether the matchup is impossible or not, because it is, it's if enough characters are affected to warrant the ban. To me, 1 is too much, but unfortunately for me, the SBR will probably think differently.

 

[Brinzy]

First, I would like to apologize for any misinterpretations I've made before.

Second, the reason as to why I was against the ban in the first place is because I believe that it just falls under the rules of counterpicking to give yourself a better shot at winning. Assuming that people are going to play to win and that they're going to give themselves the top choices to help them win, does this mean that Bowser/DK is, in essence, doomed to losing at least 1 out of 3 matches that are played?

If this is correct, them am I also able to make the assumption that even with counterpicking, the Bowser/DK player basically has to use their skill to win two matches while the opponent gets a freebie? Tell me how I'm doing so far.

 

[adumbrodeus]

As much as I hate it, this is really the only point that can be contested about the ban. It's not whether the matchup is impossible or not, because it is, it's if enough characters are affected to warrant the ban. To me, 1 is too much, but unfortunately for me, the SBR will probably think differently.

You realize that this was anti-ban's point throughout the entire discussion, right?

 

[Flayl]

You realize that this was anti-ban's point throughout the entire discussion, right?

Yes, and I never contested it. I contested the so very stupid Pika VS Fox comparison and the likes.

1 is still too much >

 

[RDK]

You realize that this was anti-ban's point throughout the entire discussion, right?

Yeah he doesn't read posts, remember?

 

[Deleted member]

Lol @ you thinking that it requires so little timing you can master it without having ever touched D3 before.

Have done this. Also have asked chu's mom/sister and random smashers that have never touched DDD before to try it. Slowest learning curve was 12 seconds. Most of them got it from the first grab.

 

[Brinzy]

Flayl, please answer that above post of mine. Just let me know if I'm on the right track or not when it comes to your argument.

 

[Flayl]

I'm not going to walk you step-by-step through my argument because it's not hard to understand at all. If a technique makes it so a player's input has no influence on the outcome of the game, it should be considered for banning. If the ban is enforceable, then ban it.

 

[Brinzy]

I'm not going to walk you step-by-step through my argument because it's not hard to understand at all.

It isn't, but I wanted to hear you say it for concrete information as to why you think it should be banned, instead of just drawing from ideas.

Anyway, while I normally agree with the fact that if a player can't directly change a doomed outcome of a match (during said match), then it shouldn't be allowed... at the same time, it is that player's choice to take the chance at this happening to them the moment they use said character. I could see if he were performing the infinite on half of the cast, but those who are affected should already know that it exists and that it can happen. Every character comes with consequences, and I believe that this infinite is just one of those consequences and that it isn't really special.

The best way to not get stuck in this is to, simply, not even use that character. It doesn't directly address the move, but I don't think it needs to be banned when that other person takes the risk of using said character. They should probably use another character and just make those who are infinited their counterpicks.

 

[Hive]

lol nvm ^^ i don't want to argue this here
<removes post>
yuna is just too off topic and strawmans everything

 

[adumbrodeus]

i'm really not sure if you keep doing this intentionally yuna, however besides being the biggest multiquote i've seen in awhile that you referred me to ^^, it basically was the most offtopic, strawmanned, ill informed, personal attacking post i've ever seen. this is why i asked you not to answer me to top it off you decided ddds infinite only effects 2 people (wtf?)

I'm sorry you must've missed that, but the issue is really confined to only 2 characters, at least as far as the infinite is concerned.

Luigi, Mario, and Samus CANNOT be infinite except over around 137%. Before that, they can break out during the required pummel.


Bowser is not an infinite, though the small-step chaingrab DOES destroy the match-up, and most people talk about him as well in this context.


That leaves 2 characters that are actually infinited prior to ungodly percents, DDD himself and DK.

2 characters? @.@ did iqs suddenly drop while i was away?
this is what people mean when they say you don't know these matchups yuna, the fact that you think these characters have some kind of chance only shows how much of an outside perspective you have.

Actually, it did.

People found out magnus's grab break technique off a single pummel, and we have vids to prove breakouts at 129 in a tournament (and I believe it was 137 outside) by reflex.


That effectively kills it against all the characters that require a pummel, aka, Luigi, Mario, and Samus. It also means that it's a REQUIRED tech for mains of those characters.

 

[Deleted member]

It isn't, but I wanted to hear you say it for concrete information as to why you think it should be banned, instead of just drawing from ideas.

You're making a demand he cannot possibly facilitate. Since either side of this debacle is ultimately subjective, drawing a stalemate by asking for objective evidence for something that is not objective will not resolve in a conclusion for either side. Try to avoid this.

 

[1048576]

The reason, as I stated before, is that no matter what the Bowser/DK does, they cannot win. Ever. It's not because it's hard, it's because it's impossible. It also helps that the technique has no other uses, which makes the ban discrete. That last one is not a reason in itself, but it's important to note Dedede does not lose anything against other characters because of the ban.

Stop saying its impossible. DK can jab and grab. It's just really hard. It is nearly equivalent to Fox/Pika. In a tourney, neither stands any chance. Learn to counterpick.

 

[Luigi player]

Stop saying its impossible. DK can jab and grab. It's just really hard. It is nearly equivalent to Fox/Pika. In a tourney, neither stands any chance. Learn to counterpick.

lol, not this again.

Dedede can shieldgrab. Dededes grab range is one of the best of not THE best (without a hook/whip/pikmin/etc.). It is impossible for DK to not get grabbed from a good Dedede.

Foxs grab range > Pikas grab range, so theoretically Fox can grab Pika first, that's not the case with DK vs D3. DK can grab D3 first but D3s spot dodge is really good so if he spot dodges your grab then DK is -1 stock. If DK spot dodges, he'll also be grabbed because his spot dodge is really long and easily punished.
And like I already said 1000 times, Fox has a projectile and can avoid Pikachus grab MUCH easier than DK D3s.

It's really bad if just one grab is already -1 stock. Especially if the grab range is that good and not so punishable like maybe ZSS' is.

 

[gr8ape]

And your evidence for this is, as opposed to, you know, what actually goes on at tournaments?


Lol @ you thinking that it requires so little timing you can master it without having ever touched D3 before.

Actually, yes

if you werent able to do it within 120 seconds of trying, its kinda sad....

 

[bobson]

And can you guys stop saying "technically" this and that. Almost anything is technically possible, including every match in this game. Its technically possible that I could beat M2K with Captain Falcon if he tripped every time he took a step. Its technically possible that I'll win the lottery, move to Hollywood, marry Selma Hayek, and have 4 children that go on to form a Who cover band. I swear to God I will smack the next person that says technically, or "not literally impossible".

But if we stop purposely speaking like that then some cockhead will come in again with "Oh but if your opponent is blind and deaf and has no arms it's not an impossible matchup!" and we'll spend another couple of pages muddying up eachothers' arguments and wording until we forget the point we were trying to make originally.

Stop saying its impossible. DK can jab and grab. It's just really hard. It is nearly equivalent to Fox/Pika. In a tourney, neither stands any chance. Learn to counterpick.

I totally called it.

 

[XxBlackxX]

lol, not this again.

Dedede can shieldgrab. Dededes grab range is one of the best of not THE best (without a hook/whip/pikmin/etc.). It is impossible for DK to not get grabbed from a good Dedede.

Foxs grab range > Pikas grab range, so theoretically Fox can grab Pika first, that's not the case with DK vs D3. DK can grab D3 first but D3s spot dodge is really good so if he spot dodges your grab then DK is -1 stock. If DK spot dodges, he'll also be grabbed because his spot dodge is really long and easily punished.
And like I already said 1000 times, Fox has a projectile and can avoid Pikachus grab MUCH easier than DK D3s.

It's really bad if just one grab is already -1 stock. Especially if the grab range is that good and not so punishable like maybe ZSS' is.

whether it's "impossible" or not doesn't really matter. what matters is if the tactic over-centralizes or break the game as a whole. it clearly does none of those things. ****ty matchups happen in competitive games. deal with it.