Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[bobson]

I'm 90% sure you can't DI out of the IC's infinites once they get them started, provided they do them correctly.

That's, you know, why they're called "infinites."

 

[HeroMystic]

No one on anti-ban's brought that up, actually, aside from the random clods who show up with one post and then leave.

Actually, yes they did. A few said that even without the infinite the unfortunate five would still be unviable.

It was argued for about a page or two.

 

[SCOTU]

you can't get out of the ICs infinite when done properly. There's this thing about DI and how it doesn't affect anything if you don't actually fly anywhere.

 

[Boxob.]

I'm 90% sure you can't DI out of the IC's infinites once they get them started, provided they do them correctly.

That's, you know, why they're called "infinites."

No, you can, SDI and regular DI can get you of the grabs.

Of course they can predict your DI and continue, but that's the same as a combo.

It's called Infinite because it CAN be infinite, not because it's guaranteed.

 

[Boxob.]

you can't get out of the ICs infinite when done properly. There's this thing about DI and how it doesn't affect anything if you don't actually fly anywhere.

This isn't a thread for IC's grabs, if you'd like, IM me or PM me about it.

Because, I've been able to escape via DI.

 

[da K.I.D.]

oh snap!!

boxob, throwin down some knowledge for yo heads...

 

[XxBlackxX]

Actually, yes they did. A few said that even without the infinite the unfortunate five would still be unviable.

It was argued for about a page or two.

NO, it's a pro-ban people who brought up that with infinites the 5 would be unviable, and we argued that they wouldn't be COMPLETELY unviable. they CAN be mained with secondaries and they CAN be used as counterpicks. however, like bobson said, too many scrubs came in and argued about it, so we gave it and labeled them as "unviable" because we believe even if they DID make these characters completely unviable they still don't fit the ban criteria.

@boxob. yea, it's "broken". it's an "auto-win" at the highest levels on play.
but it still doesn't over-centralize or break the game as a whole, nor does it COMPLETELY stop competition in the game as a whole.

This isn't a thread for IC's grabs, if you'd like, IM me or PM me about it.

Because, I've been able to escape via DI.

o rly?
it's called an INFINITE for a reason. how are you absolutely SURE that the IC's didn't somehow screw up?

 

[HeroMystic]

NO, it's a pro-ban people who brought up that with infinites the 5 would be unviable, and we argued that they wouldn't be COMPLETELY unviable. they CAN be mained with secondaries and they CAN be used as counterpicks. however, like bobson said, too many scrubs came in and argued about it, so we gave it and labeled them as "unviable" because we believe even if they DID make these characters completely unviable they still don't fit the ban criteria.

Eh, I do remember the anti-ban bring it up. I'm 90% positive, just that it was like, two months ago.

Eh, not as if it actually matters. This **** ain't getting banned.

 

[TheUmbreonMonarchy]

and that is anti competitive in nature.

Learn the definition of "anti-competitive."

It's doesn't cause "randomness" nor is it "random" like "items" are. That's anti-competitive for you.

Also, please prove you can DI the IC's grabs. I've tried DI, smash DI, tap DI, and combination of them. None of them worked.

 

[XxBlackxX]

Eh, I do remember the anti-ban bring it up. I'm 90% positive, just that it was like, two months ago.

Eh, not as if it actually matters. This **** ain't getting banned.

that's silly, why WOULD the anti-ban side claim these five characters are unviable. that adds nothing to their side. but yeah, this doesn't matter, it's just a misunderstanding xyro had.

 

[Matt07]

I'd bet anything that this **** would be banned if it applied to Falco, Snake, Metaknight, Game and Watch, and R.O.B.

That would probably be very true.

 

[da K.I.D.]

monarchy.
can we ban Gdubs side B?
it fits the criteria.
its random, and it decides matches...
or D3s side B. same values apply.

black
i remember, i think at one point, you guys were talking about how the infinite doesnt matter cause none of the effected characters were worthwhile anyway. i remember cus I vehemently argued for DKs viability

 

[RDK]

this statement here means that RDK believes that Brawl > Melee as far as competetiveness, melee has too much hitstun, so that hinders competition waaay too much lolz.

I was using the pro-bans ridiculous argument against themselves. Learn how to read posts, ******.

RDK's a scrub, don't mind him.

Oh the irony.

There's a major difference between DDD's and IC's infinites.

Let's, for this time being, forget about counterpicking, both stage and characters.

Which is more fair? DK VS DDD? Or DK VS IC's?

The obvious answer is VS IC's, this is also the correct answer. But, let's forget about the difficulty of the techniques. Let's just say they can infinite you.

But wait, here's a flaw in this logic, you can DI OUT OF ONE OF THE CHARACTERS INFINITES.

Guess who's?

You don't have to answer that.

What I'm saying is that an infinite shouldn't be banned permitted it is escapable under some condition. IC's shouldn't be banned not because of the difficulty, but because you can get out of it. DDD's on the otherhand, is broken, you cannot escape it once inside it, and that is anti competitive in nature.

You're quite possibly the biggest idiot yet to stumble on this thread, and that's saying something because Xyro, da K.I.D., and Luigi Player haven't said one intelligent word since first posting.

You can't DI out of the IC infinite. Learn the game.

 

[XxBlackxX]

black
i remember, i think at one point, you guys were talking about how the infinite doesnt matter cause none of the effected characters were worthwhile anyway. i remember cus I vehemently argued for DKs viability

yuna claimed that not me. in a way, he is right, DK by himself isn't viable in any way. HOWEVER, if used with a good secondary or only as a CP he is viable. so yea, neither of you are really right, but i stayed away from that argument because whether or not he really is or isn't unviable doesn't change the fact that the infinites don't fit the criteria.

EDIT:

That would probably be very true.

don't assume things you don't know. that would NOT be true and i would still be anti-ban.

 

[SCOTU]

Learn the definition of "anti-competitive."

It's doesn't cause "randomness" nor is it "random" like "items" are. That's anti-competitive for you.

Also, please prove you can DI the IC's grabs. I've tried DI, smash DI, tap DI, and combination of them. None of them worked.

learn the definition of "anti-competitive".

Anti competitive means that it takes a focus off of winning with skill and knowledge and strategy/thinking.

Randomness isn't intrinsically anti-competitive. No matter how much a g&w spams side b, he isn't going to win because he gets lucky 9's. It's still not that good of an attack.

 

[Brinzy]

No, you can, SDI and regular DI can get you of the grabs.

Of course they can predict your DI and continue, but that's the same as a combo.

It's called Infinite because it CAN be infinite, not because it's guaranteed.

So are you saying that the infinite is basically a combo? If so...

Why are we still discussing this DDD thing? It's just a long combo.

 

[SCOTU]

both throws are infinite because when done correctly, the throwee has no chance to survive make their time.

 

[Brinzy]

Right, I get this. I'm just trying to break down DDD's thing even more. That basically just gives me more reason to not see why it should be banned.

 

[RDK]

So are you saying that the infinite is basically a combo? If so...

Why are we still discussing this DDD thing? It's just a long combo.

both throws are infinite because when done correctly, the throwee has no chance to survive make their time.

I stated this a few pages ago, but for some reason they still like to come in here and consistently display a lack of knowledge about the game they're arguing.

 

[da K.I.D.]

don't assume things you don't know. that would NOT be true

that would NOT be true

don't assume things you don't know.

smells a little like hypocrisy in here.

learn the definition of "anti-competitive".

Anti competitive means that it takes a focus off of winning with skill and knowledge and strategy/thinking.

Randomness isn't intrinsically anti-competitive. No matter how much a g&w spams side b, he isn't going to win because he gets lucky 9's. It's still not that good of an attack.

good point, although I have seen matches won just because a GaW got a lucky 9.

but if randomness isnt always anti competitive, than something that isnt random CAN be anti competitive right?

 

[XxBlackxX]

smells a little like hypocrisy in here.


good point, and if randomness isnt always anti competitive, than something that isnt random CAN be anti competitive right?

i dont get it....quoting different parts of my same sentence means im being a hypocrite?

also, yes, if the "something" you speak of is a glitch or some sort than REMOVES competition completely, like freezing glitches, invincibility, etc. etc. anything, basically, that makes it PHYSCIALLY impossible to win. a DK:D3 matchup is not physically impossible to win because the D3 could screw up, not likely, but PHYSICALLY possible. compare that to a glitch in which D3 is invincible for the whole match, PHYSICALLY impossible for DK to win, thus eliminates competition.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i dont get it....quoting different parts of my same sentence means im being a hypocrite?

yes, because you said dont assume things you dont konw and in that VERY SAME SENTANCE you go on to assume something you dont know...

also, yes, if the "something" you speak of is a glitch or some sort than REMOVES competition completely, like freezing glitches, invincibility, etc. etc. anything, basically, that makes it PHYSCIALLY impossible to win. a DK:D3 matchup is not physically impossible to win because the D3 could screw up, not likely, but PHYSICALLY possible. compare that to a glitch in which D3 is invincible for the whole match, PHYSICALLY impossible for DK to win, thus eliminates competition.

why does it have to be that extreme?

I bet you still wouldnt ban something like that if it only worked on 1-2 characters...

 

[cutter]

da KID, I don't think you've ever even seen GW attempt a side B in a serious tournament match. Even when GW is down a few stocks he'll lose even faster if he starts to go into desparation mode and start throwing out a bunch of judgments.

It's because despite having a move that can instant kill and is decided by chance, Judgment is a really, really bad move. It is arguably GW's overall worst move. It has the startup time of a smash, but it doesn't always hit like a smash the vast majority of the time. The range is mediocre, the hitbox does not last long, and it has cooldown lag that will get GW into trouble if an opponent calls a side B from him.

Judgment's ability to affect the game is so marginal that the luck factor of pulling 9s has PROVEN to not break the game. That's why judgment is fine.

 

[Brinzy]

I think something that froze the game would be banned even if it were just Sonic taunting with Ivysaur hanging on the ledge or something. Freezing the game and anything that extreme is a big no-no, no matter how widespread or confined it is.

Judgment's ability to affect the game is so marginal that the luck factor of pulling 9s has PROVEN to not break the game. That's why judgment is fine.

Completely true. Once, I was hit by two 9s from an opponent in a tourney, yet I still won. It honestly isn't that threatening. The 9 itself is, but the chances of it ruining you are laughable.

 

[bobson]

da KID, I don't think you've ever even seen GW attempt a side B in a serious tournament match. Even when GW is down a few stocks he'll lose even faster if he starts to go into desparation mode and start throwing out a bunch of judgments.

I've seen at least one tournament video of a 9 hammer saving the match for G&W. I think it was Slikvik.

 

[XxBlackxX]

yes, because you said dont assume things you dont konw and in that VERY SAME SENTANCE you go on to assume something you dont know...

this isn't banned atm...and according to the anti-ban's statements, it wouldn't be banned if it affects all top tiers. im basing this on what i KNOW atm, and that is the infinites are NOT banned.

why does it have to be that extreme?

I bet you still wouldnt ban something like that if it only worked on 1-2 characters...

a freezing glitch or such that makes it PHYSICALLY impossible to compete at all is banworthy. then it's not just a bad matchup or an unviable character. it ELIMINATES competition. sure, DK has next to 0 chance in winning against D3, but it's PHYSICALLY possible. in that case, it's just a horrendous matchu. but something that makes a matchup impossible=/=something that eliminates competition altogether.

 

[RDK]

I bet you still wouldnt ban something like that if it only worked on 1-2 characters...

Stop making ridiculous assertions.

We've already outlined to you what warrants a ban. Your arguments have boiled down to "I bet you still wouldn't ban it if ___".

If the pro-bans have nothing new, just leave the thread. I mean honestly, your last attempt at serious dicsussion was Boxob saying you can SDI out of the IC infinite. Lolz.

 

[SCOTU]

tech chase G&W dthrow > 9 is amazing, don't get me wrong. But because the 9 is "lucky" doesn't remove any competitiveness, because they used the attack to gain some benefit, and they did (unless they got a 1). However, they know the odds of any outcome, and balance it against the benefits.

If you've ever played any Fire Emblem game, you'd realize that randomness isn't anti-strategy/ comeptitve. That game is fully based around random numbers, but it has strict rules that you can determine the odds of any given outcome. (i.e. you have a HIT of 100, they have an AVOID of 1, you have a 99.99% chance of hitting them in FE 6+).

 

[da K.I.D.]

I've seen at least one tournament video of a 9 hammer saving the match for G&W. I think it was Slikvik.

i think slikvik came back from a 2 to 1 in teams at C3 cus he pulled a lucky nine.

the commentators even said that he goes for nines to save him when he is down.

 

[Brinzy]

In fact, let's talk about FE.

I can't ****ing A-rank FE4, holy **** on a ****ing stick.

... or maybe I shouldn't go off-topic, but seriously, this is becoming tiresome.

 

[rehab]

No dude, Holy War is definitely ****. Nobody actually plays that game for ranks though, having to level crappy units for a good exp rank is very balls.

 

[HeroMystic]

No dude, Holy War is definitely ****. Nobody actually plays that game for ranks though, having to level crappy units for a good exp rank is very balls.

I beg to differ. Trying to get a high rank in FE is quite challenging and fun.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Awhile back someone posted that all but 2 characters can actually escape the infinite. Does anyone know more about that claim?

 

[SCOTU]

Someone was claiming that they can escape it until 130%, although the number's actually ~50%, last I heard.

 

[RDK]

Awhile back someone posted that all but 2 characters can actually escape the infinite. Does anyone know more about that claim?

Mario, Luigi, Samus, and Wario can escape until ridiculous percentages.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm8z4O24CvI&feature=related:

 

[1048576]

Bowser, DK, and D3 are the only characters that get infinited. D3 inches forward for Bowser, and his infinite on himself doesn't matter.

Mario, Luigi, and Samus require a pummel to D-Throw again and infinite, so you can use the Magus grab break technique until the late 130s.

 

[XxBlackxX]

Awhile back someone posted that all but 2 characters can actually escape the infinite. Does anyone know more about that claim?

there was a link to a guide and a short explaination posted in this very thread a while ago (i forgot who made the post) and it had mario, luigi, and samus breaking out of the infinite as long as they are lower than 130%. adum tells me that reflex and magus have done it in tournies. therefore, DK and bowser are the only ones affected greatly by these infinites. HOWEVER a majority of players either do not know about this or maybe this is too hard to be of practical use. i think adum, reflex, or magus will tell you more on it.

 

[AlphaZealot]

So, basically, people embellish stuff?

Basically describes the "lets ban x" movement.

We need to have one of them make a thread like that new Sonic thread about teching his D-throw.

 

[RDK]

So, basically, people embellish stuff?

Basically describes the "lets ban x" movement.

I don't get what you mean by embellish. Before 130%-ish, if you're not DK or Bowswer, D3 needs to pummel and d-throw again before he can start the infinite back up.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ewww. AZ why would you bring that up...

and yes, it is embellishing