Should any specific customs be banned?

[HarajukuNinja]

... How did I know it was going to come to this?

Customs are going through an experimental phase, and, naturally, certain custom moves are going to harder to deal with than others. As of right now, it's way too early to determine whether a move should be banned or not. I've seen players work around DK's Kong Cyclone and Villager's Timber Counter, proving that they're not as OP as you may think. Just let the custom meta set in before we jump to conclusions.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

The entire concept of something being "degenerate" has always been stupid in my eyes. "Degeneracy" is an adjective we stick onto anything that doesnt conform to the status quo, anything that doesnt do any favours for our hard-on for aggressive rushdown.

"But its a fighting game! A FIGHTING game!" No, it is a game where different parties compete to come out victorious. Just because the top players are at the top by playing a particular playstyle does not and should not mean that an opposing playstyle is degenerate.

Im going to be blunt. M2K and ZeRo probably dislike Timber Counter and want it banned because it is exactly what allows Villager to be able to deal with the types of characters they play. I can say with confidence that I speak for the vast majority of Villager players that without Timber Counter, Villager loses HARD to characters like Sonic, ZSS, Diddy Kong, Falcon, and Sheik. With it, Villager doesnt get completely bodied.

We want the meta to be nothing but rushdown, pressure, zone-penetration. With Timber Counter alone, Villager probably becomes the most powerful anti-meta entity in the game.

It certainly isnt degenerate, it certainly isnt broken. It is anti-meta. Wanting to ban Timber Counter is wanting a stale, homogenised metagame.

But hey, Im the mod for the Villager boards. Im biased! You can just write off my opinion if you want.

 

[Swoops]

Outside of balance and talk about competitiveness, this is an entertainment commodity at the end of the day. No one necessarily likes talking about the viewership, but it is an important (and possibly the most important) aspect of the competitive community now.

If a game is boring to watch, it has a high probability to wither away and die. It's prejudice but it's true. If the viewers don't have fun watching, they won't tune in. If the game doesn't bring in those viewers, then a stream that requires those numbers won't be as inclined to feature that game. If a game is no longer being featured on stream, then players (especially sponsored players) that want/need to be on stream won't be as inclined to play that game. When your player base decreases, you lose competition and therefor a vital scene.

As long as you have competition and competitors you have a vital scene, but the problem is competitors aren't just coming for the competition anymore. The presence of viewership changed quite a bit, so you have to pay attention to them. Not saying that the above always happens, but I've seen it as clear as day with SFxT.

Food for thought:

Counter Timber may not be broken or competitively unhealthy, but if it single-handily makes the game un-entertaining and frustrating to watch, that is a VERY real reason to ban the move.

 

[popsofctown]

You're totally reversing the causal relationship on fun to play e-sports and e-sports viewership.

There's almost no games that people are much more willing to watch than to play, and most of those are not fighters anyhow.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Outside of balance and talk about competitiveness, this is an entertainment commodity at the end of the day. No one necessarily likes talking about the viewership, but it is an important (and possibly the most important) aspect of the competitive community now.

If a game is boring to watch, it has a high probability to wither away and die. It's prejudice but it's true. If the viewers don't have fun watching, they won't tune in. If the game doesn't bring in those viewers, then a stream that requires those numbers won't be as inclined to feature that game. If a game is no longer being featured on stream, then players (especially sponsored players) that want/need to be on stream won't be as inclined to play that game. When your player base decreases, you lose competition and therefor a vital scene.

As long as you have competition and competitors you have a vital scene, but the problem is competitors aren't just coming for the competition anymore. The presence of viewership changed quite a bit, so you have to pay attention to them. Not saying that the above always happens, but I've seen it as clear as day with SFxT.

Food for thought:

Counter Timber may not be broken or competitively unhealthy, but if it single-handily makes the game un-entertaining and frustrating to watch, that is a VERY real reason to ban the move.

This is supposing that even a third of all matches will include someone who plays Villager. Villager isnt a popular character. This isnt helped by the fact that even the standard set isnt found fun to play as.

Suggesting we ban a custom because it will make maybe two matches out of ten unenjoyable for most spectators is ridiculous. Not to mention that fact that I actually enjoy watching matches with "campy" character. Im sure other people do to. Furthermore, am I supposed to believe that matches being saturated with the same 5-6 characters time and time again is fun? I honestly dont understand how people enjoy watching Fox mirrors multiple times in a row when viewing melee. Or MK doubles in Brawl. Or two Diddies on a team in Smash 4.

Face it, in the end the competitors are playing to win, and it just so happens that the most common and easiest way to win is somehow fun to watch for the majority of spectators. Disenfranchising a whole demographic of players for the sake of some farce that seems like "fun" is honestly stupid and the only reason why I was against banning MK in Brawl and even now wouldnt want Diddy Kong banned.

 

[Locuan]

Counter Timber may not be broken or competitively unhealthy, but if it single-handily makes the game un-entertaining and frustrating to watch, that is a VERY real reason to ban the move.

What? Just because people find a move UN-entertaining/Frustrating doesn't warrant a ban. This mentality is incorrect. For something to warrant a ban it would have to literally make the whole character roster unable to do anything. It would have to make the character employing the strategy/move completely safe to anything that is thrown at him/her.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Eh.... as devil's advocate I do believe that Swoops has a point on some level. A tournament scene with no spectators is a scene that will die quicker.

The biggest question to ask is if this boosts villager to top tier levels of power? Will his matches become more common than any other character's to the point he homogenizes the scene? I hope not. If he degenerates the scene to that point and we can see the signs coming, it will be worth considering banning. I don't believe that will happen though. Just gut feeling.

 

[Swoops]

You're totally reversing the causal relationship on fun to play e-sports and e-sports viewership.

There's almost no games that people are much more willing to watch than to play, and most of those are not fighters anyhow.

Not sure I understand that statement. Each entity exists and impacts one another, the causality goes both ways. Just because a scene started as fun to play and competition driven, doesn't mean it can't stay that way, but then also have viewership element thrown in and affect the community/scene drastically. See: every competitive past time ever.

EDIT: I'm kind of getting your post now. Basically you're saying that the play for fun competitive nature HAS to exist to even have the viewership, right? This is true, but now the entire FG scene has a huge saturation that is itself in competition. There are a lot of games that are just playing to have fun right now, and I would argue that they have a healthy "meta" or competitive nature about them (except for one.)

Skullgirls
SFxT
Marvel vs Capcom 3
Brawl

This means that players only have so much time, it's a real resource. So viewership can seriously determine where that resource is allocated.

This is supposing that even a third of all matches will include someone who plays Villager. Villager isnt a popular character. This isnt helped by the fact that even the standard set isnt found fun to play as.

Suggesting we ban a custom because it will make maybe two matches out of ten unenjoyable for most spectators is ridiculous. Not to mention that fact that I actually enjoy watching matches with "campy" character. Im sure other people do to. Furthermore, am I supposed to believe that matches being saturated with the same 5-6 characters time and time again is fun? I honestly dont understand how people enjoy watching Fox mirrors multiple times in a row when viewing melee. Or MK doubles in Brawl. Or two Diddies on a team in Smash 4.

Face it, in the end the competitors are playing to win, and it just so happens that the most common and easiest way to win is somehow fun to watch for the majority of spectators. Disenfranchising a whole demographic of players for the sake of some farce that seems like "fun" is honestly stupid and the only reason why I was against banning MK in Brawl and even now wouldnt want Diddy Kong banned.

We have several villagers in my region, and will probably start to see a few more. I agree that if one or two matches becomes distasteful, it's no reason to ban something. Lots of games have that, and lots of games can be distasteful if the meta isn't developed. But it's all up to if the scene gets saturated with Villagers, which may not happen. I just think people might find it interesting to consider the scene as a whole, players + viewers + TOs.

Also, you may find it fun, and frankly I do find well played zoning play-styles VERY fun. But this is a majority thing. You have a hard time believing it, but it's proven that a LOT of people enjoy watching these Fox dittos and 5 - 6 characters.

Again, food for thought. I'm not saying it's the right decision to ban at this time, but I still see catering to the viewership as a very valid reason. I'm also not for disenfranchising the player, I'm saying both the player and viewer are important and you have to respect both. It's a balancing act.

Of course there are other ways to make something exciting for the viewers besides banning something, but the option shouldn't be dismissed.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Outside of balance and talk about competitiveness, this is an entertainment commodity at the end of the day. No one necessarily likes talking about the viewership, but it is an important (and possibly the most important) aspect of the competitive community now.

If a game is boring to watch, it has a high probability to wither away and die. It's prejudice but it's true. If the viewers don't have fun watching, they won't tune in. If the game doesn't bring in those viewers, then a stream that requires those numbers won't be as inclined to feature that game. If a game is no longer being featured on stream, then players (especially sponsored players) that want/need to be on stream won't be as inclined to play that game. When your player base decreases, you lose competition and therefor a vital scene.

As long as you have competition and competitors you have a vital scene, but the problem is competitors aren't just coming for the competition anymore. The presence of viewership changed quite a bit, so you have to pay attention to them. Not saying that the above always happens, but I've seen it as clear as day with SFxT.

Food for thought:

Counter Timber may not be broken or competitively unhealthy, but if it single-handily makes the game un-entertaining and frustrating to watch, that is a VERY real reason to ban the move.

I'd just like to point out real quick that the thing pissing Smash 4 viewers off the most is Diddy Kong. I reckon people would love to see a Diddy eat **** for 5 minutes because he can't figure out a way around that sapling.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'd just like to point out real quick that the thing pissing Smash 4 viewers off the most is Diddy Kong. I reckon people would love to see a Diddy eat **** for 5 minutes because he can't figure out a way around that sapling.

Rosalina would've been banned ages before Diddy Kong would have.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I'd just like to point out real quick that the thing pissing Smash 4 viewers off the most is Diddy Kong. I reckon people would love to see a Diddy eat **** for 5 minutes because he can't figure out a way around that sapling.

Funny you say that. Twitch chat was going absolutely wild for Jtails in the KTAR grand finals today, who was playing Diddy, and had played Diddy in every set of the tournament except one. You wanna know why people were rooting for him? He was playing against Dabuz, and Dabuz is unpopular because he has a campy playstyle. People may have character biases, but they have playstyle biases even more. In fact, coincidentally, ADHD had entered the tournament using custom Villager, and everybody hated it. Even the commentators were sort of making fun of it. I can assure you that if he went up against any Diddy Kong's in bracket, people were cheering for the Diddy Kong.

Also, I'd just like to state that I disliked Timber Counter before it was cool. Do I get hipster cred now?

 

[DunnoBro]

Kong Cyclone is honestly only on the same tier as spindash, bouncing fish, or monkey flip. Anyone claiming it's broken is honestly unable to understand almost all the top tiers force unavoidable crap if you don't respect their moves and "no-zones"

Timber counter is the only valid concern about customs, as it ignores player interaction entirely to be useful... Or rather, discourages it.

But if you compare it other radical anti-rushdown mechanics like luma, and trick shot (both of which were widely regarded as "broken" in the early sm4sh meta. m2k even planned on maining DHD for a while)

It's super annoying, and makes a lot of matchups for rushdown characters absolute hell. And yet we still see their defenses penetrated at top level play and are reminded why they needed those defenses in the first place.

That comparison however does become iffy once you remember Trick shot can be shielded, and Luma can be killed... But the sapling is just on a timer. And can be manually and quickly brought back any time villager is grounded. (though the sapling is immobile unlike the other anti-rushdown tools)

But anyone with aerial approach options, a reflector, projectile(that doesn't become unusable post-pocket), movement options, or just plain superior combo/kill potential still bops villager.

Honestly I do feel bad for m2k and zero because customs villager vs diddy is definitely janky. Can't camp with bananas or rush down with grabs. Sheik still destroys him though.

 

[Piford]

If timber counter mixed with extreme balloon trip is really a problem, could we possibly just ban the use of those moves in tandem? The main complaint seems to be using the sapling to guard the ledge while you spam balloon trip. It seems to invalidate a large number of characters. Now while I still don't want to see a custom move banned without a legitimate reason (which this easily could be, but it could be a knee jerk reaction), many people are saying we need to ban all custom moves because of this. I much rather have this banned at EVO and explore it later than have all custom moves banned in the future. Now obviously my opinion doesn't mean much, but I'd like to throw that suggestion out there.

 

[Unknownkid]

If timber counter mixed with extreme balloon trip is really a problem, could we possibly just ban the use of those moves in tandem? The main complaint seems to be using the sapling to guard the ledge while you spam balloon trip. It seems to invalidate a large number of characters. Now while I still don't want to see a custom move banned without a legitimate reason (which this easily could be, but it could be a knee jerk reaction), many people are saying we need to ban all custom moves because of this. I much rather have this banned at EVO and explore it later than have all custom moves banned in the future. Now obviously my opinion doesn't mean much, but I'd like to throw that suggestion out there.

Why ban this setup when it was beaten 3 times at KTAR (by 3 separate players) and 3 more times at a Texas tournament (a single player who switched characters for the heck of it)? It is not broken, son. It is beatable. Time for players to asking for bans, learn to adapt or lab up a strategy and "git gud".

 

[Piford]

Why ban this setup when it was beaten 3 times at KTAR (by 3 separate players) and 3 more times at a Texas tournament (a single player who switched characters for the heck of it)? It is not broken, son. It is beatable. Time for players to asking for bans, learn to adapt or lab up a strategy and "git gud".

I don't think it should be banned, well without sufficient evidence. But I rather see just timber counter banned than all customs banned all together. So if it's timber counter or customs I pick timber counter. If we can not ban anything yet, I pick that.

 

[FSLink]

Banning anything based off of knee jerk reactions from spectators just because something looks boring is a silly idea. No move should be banned this early on without substantial evidence (like the Order Tackle + Reflector one that leads to an instant kill, which most people can agree is super jank.... and even then most communities seem to ban that in doubles only) and/or tourney results.

I'm not opposed to banning Timber Counter or implementing a LGL or whatever solution the community comes up with, but calling for a ban this early on makes me question if you even bothered to spend 5 minutes in the lab trying to come up with a solution/counter.


EDIT: v @ TheHypnotoad , it wasn't directed at you specifically, calm down.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Banning anything based off of knee jerk reactions from spectators

I made this thread a few days before KTAR. I formulated my own opinions based on playing with Timber Counter and going up against others who were using Timber Counter. I did not base my opinions on watching matches with Timber Counter and finding them boring.

 

[Teshie U]

Kong Cyclone is honestly only on the same tier as spindash, bouncing fish, or monkey flip. Anyone claiming it's broken is honestly unable to understand almost all the top tiers force unavoidable crap if you don't respect their moves and "no-zones"

Timber counter is the only valid concern about customs, as it ignores player interaction entirely to be useful... Or rather, discourages it.

But if you compare it other radical anti-rushdown mechanics like luma, and trick shot (both of which were widely regarded as "broken" in the early sm4sh meta. m2k even planned on maining DHD for a while)

It's super annoying, and makes a lot of matchups for rushdown characters absolute hell. And yet we still see their defenses penetrated at top level play and are reminded why they needed those defenses in the first place.

That comparison however does become iffy once you remember Trick shot can be shielded, and Luma can be killed... But the sapling is just on a timer. And can be manually and quickly brought back any time villager is grounded. (though the sapling is immobile unlike the other anti-rushdown tools)

But anyone with aerial approach options, a reflector, projectile(that doesn't become unusable post-pocket), movement options, or just plain superior combo/kill potential still bops villager.

Honestly I do feel bad for m2k and zero because customs villager vs diddy is definitely janky. Can't camp with bananas or rush down with grabs. Sheik still destroys him though.

Very good point on Kong Cyclone. Top tiers all have one or two moves that require alot of concentration to deal with and a deep understanding beyond the obvious endlag of most moves. Spindash doesn't even truly have endlag. Its just a jump with a hitbox. Monkey flip is an option that beats everything within a certain range and forces you to vacate the area or get your face humped.

 

[This is a Sentence]

Can we just for a second pretend that some of the custom moves and the default set were switched around a bit. Should we ban those types of moves just because its something that most of us haven't truly seen all that much and therefore have no really knowledge of its advantages/ limitations?

 

[Piford]

I made this thread a few days before KTAR. I formulated my own opinions based on playing with Timber Counter and going up against others who were using Timber Counter. I did not base my opinions on watching matches with Timber Counter and finding them boring.

Was TImber Counter even the problem at KTAR, it seemed like Extreme Balloon Trip was more of the issue.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Was TImber Counter even the problem at KTAR, it seemed like Balloon Trip was more of the issue.

Not the point.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm really happy that we are discussing banning things for the purposes of spectators.

This means we can finally ban Sonic.

 

[Unknownkid]

But 6wx is allowed to use his Sonic, right?

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I'm really happy that we are discussing banning things for the purposes of spectators.

This means we can finally ban Sonic.

MY OPINION TOWARDS TIMBER COUNTER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SPECTATORS.

I made this thread a few days before KTAR. I formulated my own opinions based on playing with Timber Counter and going up against others who were using Timber Counter. I did not base my opinions on watching matches with Timber Counter and finding them boring.

NOW STOP STRAWMANNING.

YES, I AM REALLY MAD RIGHT NOW.

 

[Thinkaman]

MY OPINION TOWARDS TIMBER COUNTER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SPECTATORS.

My joke was directed at Swoops.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

My joke was directed at Swoops.

You could have at least quoted his post.

 

[Blobface]

Okay, I feel like I worded my point poorly. Luckily for me, however, there are other people who are capable of wording it better. ZeRo and Mew2king were streaming last night, and someone asked them if they disliked any particular customs. And both of them gave the same answer, without even hesitating: Timber Counter. ZeRo said he didn't like it, and Mew2king wanted it banned entirely. Their reasoning wasn't that it was overpowered; it was that the move was degenerate. Villager is already an extremely campy character, but Timber Counter promotes camping even more than usual. I would say that Timber Counter is analogous to a stage hazard. We don't necessarily ban stage hazards for being "too good"; we ban them for being degenerate or promoting degenerate play. And that is precisely what Timber Counter is doing.

And if you don't believe me, then you can ask ZeRo and Mew2king. Their opinions are probably worth much more than mine.

Zero and Mew2king said the exact same thing about diddy.

And later rescinded it.

Just because they're top level players doesn't mean they always think about what they say.

 

[GeneralLedge]

So is there a "how to counter timber counter" discussion open anywhere yet? Or a "how to counter ADHD's toxic camping" thread?

 

[EEvisu]

If you allow one custom you must allow them all, open the flood gates!

 

[Strangelove13]

So is there a "how to counter timber counter" discussion open anywhere yet? Or a "how to counter ADHD's toxic camping" thread?

I don't think there's a specific thread for it but the Character Competitive Impressions thread has been discussing it in the last few pages and consensus seems to be that it is perfectly beatable and that most characters seem to have ways to deal it.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Pikachus custom skull bash and villagers counter tree. Although I'm personally against customs as a whole.

 

[Pyr]

Pikachus custom skull bash and villagers counter tree. Although I'm personally against customs as a whole.

Why Heavy Skull Bash? I know you're against them, but any research would show you that HSB is far from broken and it's basically a rest that you have to charge to kill anyone super early.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Why Heavy Skull Bash? I know you're against them, but any research would show you that HSB is far from broken and it's basically a rest that you have to charge to kill anyone super early.

Just watching MTD vs ESAM made me cringe

 

[Piford]

Just watching MTD vs ESAM made me cringe

ESAM trapped MVD to where either he would die from the skull bash, or he would knock him off stage for a gimp. ESAM pretty much secured the kill regardless of customs or not (although that doesn't stop ESAM from thinking the custom is broken).

 

[Pyr]

Just watching MTD vs ESAM made me cringe

Watching something without understanding what's going on and why it's going on the way it is.

No wonder you're against customs.

 

[thehard]

You don't even have to offer an explanation of why ESAM won

It was Day 1 of anyone (including MVD?) seeing that happen. Day 1. One day of experience.

 

[Piford]

So I just did some testing as now people want to ban heavy skull bash, and I found something interesting which was probably know before. Heavy Skull Bash is pretty weak when used while moving. Like it doesn't kill till much later percents. So kills like the one ESAM got require being near the edge of the stage, being against a lightweight character, Pikachu to charge the move a bit, and Pikachu to be standing still.

 

[Strangelove13]

Just watching MTD vs ESAM made me cringe

That's a good idea, let's ban based on the cringiness of the move! Can we also agree to ban Wario though? Every time he let's out that fart and eats people alive I cringe a little. Also, let's disregard the fact that it was used by the best Pikachu player in the world and it was the first time anyone has put it to good use.

So I just did some testing as now people want to ban heavy skull bash, and I found something interesting which was probably know before. Heavy Skull Bash is pretty weak when used while moving. Like it doesn't kill till much later percents. So kills like the one ESAM got require being near the edge of the stage, being against a lightweight character, Pikachu to charge the move a bit, and Pikachu to be standing still.

Wait, you're telling me it's not OP and there's a counter to it? No way, let's just ban it, I don't want to have to adapt to it.

 

[Zylach]

I don't understand the sentiment of banning customs THE MOMENT people see someone get a silly kill with them or THE MOMENT someone acts really campy with a new custom. We've seen Pikachu's HSB be effective for literally one day and have only seen Villager's Timber Counter and Explosive Balloons a few times and people act like this is evidence enough to ban them entirely. This is a similar reaction I saw when there were so many successful Bowser's in the 3ds demo tournament before the game came out. Everyone saw literally one tournament where Bowser was successful given absolutely no context and everyone started screaming for Bowser's being top tier.

News flash folks, THIS ISN'T HOW INTELLIGENT ANALYSIS OF ANYTHING EVER WORKS... EVER. Present this amount of evidence to backup your proposition in a court of law, the scientific community, politics, etc. and tell me how well you think your message will be received. Evidence is required for decisions and persuasion and telling everyone that not a single person should ever be able to use something in a setting that this community is passionate about and backing it up with, essentially, "Well, this one time..." is the epitome of an unsound premise for an argument.

Sorry if I come off as aggressive but unsound logic is insulting.

 

[warriorman222]

So I just did some testing as now people want to ban heavy skull bash, and I found something interesting which was probably know before. Heavy Skull Bash is pretty weak when used while moving. Like it doesn't kill till much later percents. So kills like the one ESAM got require being near the edge of the stage, being against a lightweight character, Pikachu to charge the move a bit, and Pikachu to be standing still.

Diddy is the exact middle of the weight chart.

... I'm not helping things, am I?