Should any specific customs be banned?

[Indigo Jeans]

An involved crowd and enthusiastic commentary is all you need to make something not boring to the masses TBH. I like watching Stalliger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e-RRjvyiYY This match in particular was great fun. Something new showing up on a major stream, every hit counting, etc.

"If he can take him to a stage that transforms and there isn't always a ledge..." I've brought this up in skype convos but if Villager planking really is that bad of an issue Wii Fit Studio is basically the premier stage to take the character to. Walkoffs are already a nightmare for vanilla Villager. Too bad it will probably never be widely legal.

Part of it is certainly because some characters have no answer to it. It just makes an already bad matchup even worse for some characters, and nobody wants to see that.

EBT+TC are Villager's best tools for dealing with bad matchups. It just makes an already bad matchup more or less even, is what you probably meant to say.

Having a game where counterpicking characters is extremely prominent isn't good game design to most people. You really should be able to stand a decent chance of winning with any character.

Zee, one of the better, more notable Villager players, has already expressed that Villager is suited to be more of a counterpick character than a main, and this is without customs. Trying to solo main Villager is not a good idea if you want to win and you want to win consistently. Ideally Villager would just be your counterpick character. The fact that customs flips it around and now you have to counterpick characters to deal with Villager shouldn't be an issue imo if it isn't one in a customs-less environment.

You really should be able to stand a decent chance of winning with any character. It's not a perfect world and so matchups are never going to be perfectly even across the board, but purposefully having something that is under our control (IE custom stuff) that gives some people massive advantages over others that they shouldn't have is going to be perceived as wrong.

Wii Fit Trainer exists. Furthermore, custom Wii Fit Trainer exists, and clamoring for some sort of restriction on Jumbo Hoops is apparently perceived as a "politically correct" opinion? What? I'm just trying to point out why the argument that "restrict certain customs because they are under our control and they give some people massive advantages over others that they shouldn't have (even when standard customs already do this) BUT you really should be able to stand a decent chance of winning with any character" is a horrible one to make.

When it makes the pace of the game extraordinarily slow, it just makes the reaction worse.

I understand and I respect that you and many others feel that if something decreases viewership, it should be suspected. I however believe that out goal should be a metagame that is balanced for the players, and not affected by the prejudices of spectators. Yes, Villager planking is seen by many as boring, but no, it is not broken, yes, it can be beaten, yes, it makes some matchups nightmares, but like you said, matchups are never going to be perfectly even across the board. Matchups are never going to be anywhere NEAR perfectly even. Incredibly skewed matchups exist for Villager without customs on, and that is accepted. Incredibly skewed matchups exist against Villager with customs on, and that is unacceptable? Horrible matchups are a fact of the game that I have come to accept. "Objectively speaking", why can they not be accepted under different circumstances?

It's entertaining when it's the first time you've seen it. If every other match featured this tactic, I think you'd be singing a different tune.

...That said, ledge-stalling villager really isn't a problem and probably never will be.

This is assuming that every other player is suddenly going to pick up customs Villager. Do you honestly see that happening? Why is it not happening already? What is stopping every other match from featuring planking Villager at this point in time? Honestly I am ****ing tired of that bull**** fear-mongering statement that "we should ban it now or else EVERY SINGLE MATCH WITH DRAG ON FOREEEEVEEEER!" No, that is not going to happen, otherwise we would already be seeing it. It's just a scare tactic, plain and simple. A bogeyman. You're making up a non-issue for people to take issue with.

Ugh.

 

[thehard]

It's entertaining when it's the first time you've seen it. If every other match featured this tactic, I think you'd be singing a different tune.

...That said, ledge-stalling villager really isn't a problem and probably never will be.

Yeah, but like custom DK, I don't expect to see custom Villager as a common pick.

 

[S_B]

Yeah, but like custom DK, I don't expect to see custom Villager as a common pick.

Yeah, custom DK was a big deal in, like, ONE tournament and hasn't been heard from since, yet people are still like "OMG CUSTOM DK!!!!!!!!!" while Shiek/Diddy are sitting pretty at S-tier...

 

[Gawain]

"If he can take him to a stage that transforms and there isn't always a ledge..." I've brought this up in skype convos but if Villager planking really is that bad of an issue Wii Fit Studio is basically the premier stage to take the character to. Walkoffs are already a nightmare for vanilla Villager. Too bad it will probably never be widely legal.


EBT+TC are Villager's best tools for dealing with bad matchups. It just makes an already bad matchup more or less even, is what you probably meant to say.

Zee, one of the better, more notable Villager players, has already expressed that Villager is suited to be more of a counterpick character than a main, and this is without customs. Trying to solo main Villager is not a good idea if you want to win and you want to win consistently. Ideally Villager would just be your counterpick character. The fact that customs flips it around and now you have to counterpick characters to deal with Villager shouldn't be an issue imo if it isn't one in a customs-less environment.

Wii Fit Trainer exists. Furthermore, custom Wii Fit Trainer exists, and clamoring for some sort of restriction on Jumbo Hoops is apparently perceived as a "politically correct" opinion? What? I'm just trying to point out why the argument that "restrict certain customs because they are under our control and they give some people massive advantages over others that they shouldn't have (even when standard customs already do this) BUT you really should be able to stand a decent chance of winning with any character" is a horrible one to make.

I understand and I respect that you and many others feel that if something decreases viewership, it should be suspected. I however believe that out goal should be a metagame that is balanced for the players, and not affected by the prejudices of spectators. Yes, Villager planking is seen by many as boring, but no, it is not broken, yes, it can be beaten, yes, it makes some matchups nightmares, but like you said, matchups are never going to be perfectly even across the board. Matchups are never going to be anywhere NEAR perfectly even. Incredibly skewed matchups exist for Villager without customs on, and that is accepted. Incredibly skewed matchups exist against Villager with customs on, and that is unacceptable? Horrible matchups are a fact of the game that I have come to accept. "Objectively speaking", why can they not be accepted under different circumstances?


This is assuming that every other player is suddenly going to pick up customs Villager. Do you honestly see that happening? Why is it not happening already? What is stopping every other match from featuring planking Villager at this point in time? Honestly I am ****ing tired of that bull**** fear-mongering statement that "we should ban it now or else EVERY SINGLE MATCH WITH DRAG ON FOREEEEVEEEER!" No, that is not going to happen, otherwise we would already be seeing it. It's just a scare tactic, plain and simple. A bogeyman. You're making up a non-issue for people to take issue with.

Ugh.

No, that really isn't what I meant to say. You tell me with a straight face that something like Ike vs Villager planking is a thought provoking, interesting matchup. Is anything of value lost without those customs? How does it compare to the benefits of not having it there? I will admit that I think that characters like Villager/Rosalina etc have massive design flaws that make them play a boring to watch game, and that no amount of customs or lack of customs is going to necessarily fix that, but personally I think that there is little reason to exacerbate a problem more than necessary. Your argument that we should accept terrible matchups made by custom moves on the basis that there are already bad matchups doesn't really make much sense if you ask me. Why would we consciously create more bad matchups?

Don't tell people it's a non-issue. If it's happened in tournament before, it's an issue. It doesn't matter if it's widespread now or later, or even if it never becomes widespread. Telling people to ignore something because it isn't common is just trying to silence discussion on something that people want to talk about.

 

[Doruge]

This is assuming that every other player is suddenly going to pick up customs Villager. Do you honestly see that happening? Why is it not happening already? What is stopping every other match from featuring planking Villager at this point in time? Honestly I am ****ing tired of that bull**** fear-mongering statement that "we should ban it now or else EVERY SINGLE MATCH WITH DRAG ON FOREEEEVEEEER!" No, that is not going to happen, otherwise we would already be seeing it. It's just a scare tactic, plain and simple. A bogeyman. You're making up a non-issue for people to take issue with.

Ugh.

No, no, I agree with you. I used poor wording in my post, I was really just trying to point out that Stalliger isn't actually fun to watch. I am in no way in favor of a ban.

 

[S_B]

No, that really isn't what I meant to say. You tell me with a straight face that something like Ike vs Villager planking is a thought provoking, interesting matchup. Is anything of value lost without those customs? How does it compare to the benefits of not having it there? I will admit that I think that characters like Villager/Rosalina etc have massive design flaws that make them play a boring to watch game, and that no amount of customs or lack of customs is going to necessarily fix that, but personally I think that there is little reason to exacerbate a problem more than necessary. Your argument that we should accept terrible matchups made by custom moves on the basis that there are already bad matchups doesn't really make much sense if you ask me. Why would we consciously create more bad matchups?

The Stalliger matches in the recent tournament were absolutely awesome to watch because everyone was rooting against ADHD and hoping that someone would be able to beat him (and he WAS beaten).

Same with R&L: yeah, these characters are crazy at zoning, but it adds to the "moment of truth" when the opponent manages to get in and make something happen.

I'd rather watch Stalliger matches all damn day then watch Diddies dthrow > uair people all the damn time like we see now.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

I honest to God don't see why such a thing would be necessary.

 

[Teshie U]

Villager's ledge play is a nice change of pace from the rest of the game. It IS quite thought provoking to see what most characters will do when they can't grab you.

Even the sapling isn't impossible to deal with when you realize, you can just reach past it with almost anyone and still poke villager.

I dont find Rosalina or Villager to have a boring character design just because its not rushdown.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

No, that really isn't what I meant to say. You tell me with a straight face that something like Ike vs Villager planking is a thought provoking, interesting matchup. Is anything of value lost without those customs? How does it compare to the benefits of not having it there? I will admit that I think that characters like Villager/Rosalina etc have massive design flaws that make them play a boring to watch game, and that no amount of customs or lack of customs is going to necessarily fix that, but personally I think that there is little reason to exacerbate a problem more than necessary. Your argument that we should accept terrible matchups made by custom moves on the basis that there are already bad matchups doesn't really make much sense if you ask me. Why would we consciously create more bad matchups?

Don't tell people it's a non-issue. If it's happened in tournament before, it's an issue. It doesn't matter if it's widespread now or later, or even if it never becomes widespread. Telling people to ignore something because it isn't common is just trying to silence discussion on something that people want to talk about.

You're assuming that I found my opinions and arguments on what is interesting for spectators. Again. And you tell me with a straight face that it doesn't take any thought for the Ike player to break though the planking. Yes, it's a bad matchup. And that is exactly what makes it thought provoking. How is Ike going to break through? What is he going to do once he does? Does that not seem interesting to you, as a player?

Then again arguing that I find something interesting when you plainly don't is an exercise in futility so w/e

Why would we consciously create more bad matchups? I dunno, does that mean we should have customs on? You are creating bad matchups at the sake of alleviating others, whether you turn customs on or turn them off, or even ban certain customs. If you turn customs on, you aren't just adding more bad matchups. Villager loses bad matchups for her and creates bad matchups against her.

And, wow! It's the same deal with banning customs. Villager loses good matchups for her and creates good matchups against her.

A matchup that requires more cerebral play and more time than others is not a bad matchup. It probably isn't a good matchup either. We are so entrenched in the idea that matchups are static and set in stone the second characters and stages are picked. Against custom Villager, you're probably gonna have a bad matchup if you play a certain way, or don't take the time to think about what you are doing, or don't take your time at all. Against custom Villager, you can change a bad matchup into a WINNING matchup if you take extra time to calculate your actions. Did you watch the video linked? Tweek found his way around ADHD's planking. It just took time and careful consideration. He won the second round, and probably would have won the third as well. It doesn't matter if it's "boring". It can be beaten. He had what would appear to be a bad matchup round 1 and turned it around round 2.

Custom Villager does create basically unwinnable matchups for some characters, but it also creates dynamic matchups for some. If you're going to say that it just gives us a net increase in bad matchups you're flat-out lying.

Again, you ask me, "why would we consciously create more bad matchups?" Now ask yourself that. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you want some sort of restrictions to be placed on customs so that Villager cannot plank. Why would you want to consciously create more bad matchups? Villager v Sheik isn't a particularly bad matchup for either character when Villager has EBT + CT available. Do you want to make it go back to being a bad matchup for Villager? Do you want to make more bad matchups? How about v Sonic? Or Little Mac? Or any of the other character Villager has bad matchups against without those two customs? Do you want to make more bad matchups against them? And it's not even restricted to Villager. I'll reference Jumbo Hoops again. People who want restrictions on that CONSCIOUSLY WANT TO CREATE MORE BAD MATCHUPS FOR WII FIT TRAINER. It goes both ways.

And you misunderstand me. I don't believe it's an issue, for reasons I've elaborated on above. I'm saying that it's very, very, very, very, VERY unlikely that we are eventually going to reach 20XX where every other match is planking customs Villager. I'm saying that anyone who proposes anything like that is attempting to scare people into accepting their point of view with a non-issue, the "issue" being that everyone would play custom Villager. In this case custom Villager itself isn't the issue, the supposed increase in the character's playerbase is. And that is simply not going to happen.

Tell me with a straight face that you are going to play custom Villager. Tell me every other person in your scene is going to play custom Villager. Tell me every other entrant at EVO is going to go in with custom Villager. Tell me every other set in semis and finals will have custom Villager. You can't.

Let me just put this out there: I honestly don't care if it's "boring". I couldn't care less. "It's boring" alone will never be a valid point for restricting something when you're debating with me, and if you bring it up you're wasting your breath. All I care about is whether or not something is mechanically flawed and/or is unreasonably unbeatable for a significant portion of the cast.

Also, while I do play 1322, I don't plank. I mainly use the balloons as stage hazards. Just in case anyone thought the reason I am so vehemently against restricting planking Villager is because I employ the strategy.

Edit: Oh, I see you main Ike. You know, as a Villager main, I have to play secondary characters to cover Villager's nightmare matchups when customs are off. I don't see why you even decided to bring that up. Just accept it and pick up a character that can deal with customs Villager, just like I've had to do.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Here's a thought for the Ike main: block until he regrabs the ledge, then dsmash. Does it trade with the balloon? Who cares? You came out on top.

 

[Gawain]

You're assuming that I found my opinions and arguments on what is interesting for spectators. Again. And you tell me with a straight face that it doesn't take any thought for the Ike player to break though the planking. Yes, it's a bad matchup. And that is exactly what makes it thought provoking. How is Ike going to break through? What is he going to do once he does? Does that not seem interesting to you, as a player?

Then again arguing that I find something interesting when you plainly don't is an exercise in futility so w/e

Why would we consciously create more bad matchups? I dunno, does that mean we should have customs on? You are creating bad matchups at the sake of alleviating others, whether you turn customs on or turn them off, or even ban certain customs. If you turn customs on, you aren't just adding more bad matchups. Villager loses bad matchups for her and creates bad matchups against her.

And, wow! It's the same deal with banning customs. Villager loses good matchups for her and creates good matchups against her.

A matchup that requires more cerebral play and more time than others is not a bad matchup. It probably isn't a good matchup either. We are so entrenched in the idea that matchups are static and set in stone the second characters and stages are picked. Against custom Villager, you're probably gonna have a bad matchup if you play a certain way, or don't take the time to think about what you are doing, or don't take your time at all. Against custom Villager, you can change a bad matchup into a WINNING matchup if you take extra time to calculate your actions. Did you watch the video linked? Tweek found his way around ADHD's planking. It just took time and careful consideration. He won the second round, and probably would have won the third as well. It doesn't matter if it's "boring". It can be beaten. He had what would appear to be a bad matchup round 1 and turned it around round 2.

Custom Villager does create basically unwinnable matchups for some characters, but it also creates dynamic matchups for some. If you're going to say that it just gives us a net increase in bad matchups you're flat-out lying.

Again, you ask me, "why would we consciously create more bad matchups?" Now ask yourself that. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you want some sort of restrictions to be placed on customs so that Villager cannot plank. Why would you want to consciously create more bad matchups? Villager v Sheik isn't a particularly bad matchup for either character when Villager has EBT + CT available. Do you want to make it go back to being a bad matchup for Villager? Do you want to make more bad matchups? How about v Sonic? Or Little Mac? Or any of the other character Villager has bad matchups against without those two customs? Do you want to make more bad matchups against them? And it's not even restricted to Villager. I'll reference Jumbo Hoops again. People who want restrictions on that CONSCIOUSLY WANT TO CREATE MORE BAD MATCHUPS FOR WII FIT TRAINER. It goes both ways.

And you misunderstand me. I don't believe it's an issue, for reasons I've elaborated on above. I'm saying that it's very, very, very, very, VERY unlikely that we are eventually going to reach 20XX where every other match is planking customs Villager. I'm saying that anyone who proposes anything like that is attempting to scare people into accepting their point of view with a non-issue, the "issue" being that everyone would play custom Villager. In this case custom Villager itself isn't the issue, the supposed increase in the character's playerbase is. And that is simply not going to happen.

Tell me with a straight face that you are going to play custom Villager. Tell me every other person in your scene is going to play custom Villager. Tell me every other entrant at EVO is going to go in with custom Villager. Tell me every other set in semis and finals will have custom Villager. You can't.

Let me just put this out there: I honestly don't care if it's "boring". I couldn't care less. "It's boring" alone will never be a valid point for restricting something when you're debating with me, and if you bring it up you're wasting your breath. All I care about is whether or not something is mechanically flawed and/or is unreasonably unbeatable for a significant portion of the cast.

Also, while I do play 1322, I don't plank. I mainly use the balloons as stage hazards. Just in case anyone thought the reason I am so vehemently against restricting planking Villager is because I employ the strategy.

Edit: Oh, I see you main Ike. You know, as a Villager main, I have to play secondary characters to cover Villager's nightmare matchups when customs are off. I don't see why you even decided to bring that up. Just accept it and pick up a character that can deal with customs Villager, just like I've had to do.

Funny that you try to take a jab at the fact that i literally just took up Ike as a secondary for my Falcon not 3 days ago.There are plentyf characters besides Ike that get invalidated by it. Don't be a hypocrite: i doubt you'd be defending this vapidly if you didn't play villager.

And i never once said that i was in favor of a ban. You're just strawmanning arguments in for me at this point. I'd be more in favor of a ledge grab limit to be honest. Atleast for the problematic characters. Since all your other points are basically founded on putting arguments in my mouth, I'm not even going to bother responding to them, but I will leave you with this:there is nothing cerebral about trying single hit blows with someone at the ledge. You are purposefully limiting variables to break the game down to a painfully boring simplicity.

 

[san.]

Huh? Ike can deal with planking easily by spamming aether wave....

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Funny that you try to take a jab at the fact that i literally just took up Ike as a secondary for my Falcon not 3 days ago.There are plentyf characters besides Ike that get invalidated by it. Don't be a hypocrite: i doubt you'd be defending this vapidly if you didn't play villager.

And i never once said that i was in favor of a ban. You're just strawmanning arguments in for me at this point. I'd be more in favor of a ledge grab limit to be honest. Atleast for the problematic characters. Since all your other points are basically founded on putting arguments in my mouth, I'm not even going to bother responding to them, but I will leave you with this:there is nothing cerebral about trying single hit blows with someone at the ledge. You are purposefully limiting variables to break the game down to a painfully boring simplicity.

In that case, if you're going to be focusing on playing in a customs-on environment then you've done a very poor job of picking up secondaries. And I only referenced Ike because you brought the matchup up.

"Don't be a hypocrite: i doubt you'd be defending this vapidly if you didn't play villager."

But hey, Im the mod for the Villager boards. Im biased! You can just write off my opinion if you want.

Huh, how did I know someone would eventually stoop to this? Lucky guess I suppose. No, I would in fact still be defending this even if I didn't play Villager. For the same reason I think wanting to ban Diddy Kong is an incredibly stupid idea, for the same reason I was really hesitant on agreeing Meta Knight should be banned in Brawl. Because I want a balanced, varied metagame, no matter what characters I play, and banning customs is counterproductive. Nice try though. I guess. Do you even know what the word hypocrite means?

"And i never once said that i was in favor of a ban"
That's funny, I never said you were, either! I assumed you would be for some sort of restriction. If anything you're the one strawmanning, seeing as you tried calling me a hypocrite? Because I main Villager?

I'm not putting arguments into your mouth, I'm deconstructing the arguments you yourself have made. There is a logical disparity going on in your rhetoric which you seem to refuse to acknowledge. "'Why would you want to create more bad matchups' is a legitimate argument if its an effect of giving character X access to resources a, b, and c! But not if the same would happen by not allowing character X access to resources a, b, and c!"

My opinions, what I'm arguing, they go past the "issue" of Villager. I'm concerning myself with the health of the metagame as a whole. When you say that we are consciously creating more bad matchups by... I don't know honestly, what exactly are you saying is the root of the bad matchups? The customs? The strategy? It doesn't matter. Bad matchups will always exist, and when you are in favour of placing restrictions on characters you are consciously creating more bad matchups. What arguments am I putting into your mouth there? "You are purposefully limiting variables"? The irony. There is nothing cerebral about making every hit count?

I honestly don't know what to say anymore. You'll probably just dismiss it as me putting arguments into your mouth (when in reality I'm just applying your same exact arguments differently to put them in perspective) or being a "hypocrite".

At least we do agree on ledge grab limits, but you and I both know that that's unrealistic. They don't work because they're difficult to enforce. I would however be wholly in favour of some way of limiting planking without taking away Villager's (or any other characters', for that matter) best assets.

Here's another one of your statements that I take issue with and plays to the overarching point I'm trying to address.

I will admit that I think that characters like Villager/Rosalina etc have massive design flaws that make them play a boring to watch game, and that no amount of customs or lack of customs is going to necessarily fix that, but personally I think that there is little reason to exacerbate a problem more than necessary.

Their playstyles are design flaws because the way they play is "boring". That is essentially what you are saying. You are saying that their characteristics are "massive design flaws" because they encourage "boring" play. This is a truly poisonous way of thinking. If it's boring, it's a design flaw. A perfect metagame is a metagame where every character plays offense. A perfect metagame is a stale metagame (and before you try to bring up the fact that I play Villager and Rosalina, I do play Greninja and Shulk as well).

I'll never understand this. I'll never understand why anything besides aggresive play is broken, is degenerate, is flawed. This is what I am arguing against.

And, if that's not what you were saying, if that's not what you meant, if I'm putting arguments in your mouth, I would really appreciate if you could elaborate. What are these characters' "massive design flaws"? Why are these even flaws? If you can explain that without pulling the "because it's boring" card (or, are they flaws because they make things boring, or is the "boringness" simply an effect of their flaws? That'd be legitimately interesting to read), I'll be thoroughly impressed.

 

[S_B]

Once again, I'd rather spend 6 minutes watching someone try to swat a villager off the ledge than watching yet another episode of "Diddy's Downthrow Circlejerk Jamboree"...

 

[Gawain]

In that case, if you're going to be focusing on playing in a customs-on environment then you've done a very poor job of picking up secondaries. And I only referenced Ike because you brought the matchup up.

"Don't be a hypocrite: i doubt you'd be defending this vapidly if you didn't play villager."

Huh, how did I know someone would eventually stoop to this? Lucky guess I suppose. No, I would in fact still be defending this even if I didn't play Villager. For the same reason I think wanting to ban Diddy Kong is an incredibly stupid idea, for the same reason I was really hesitant on agreeing Meta Knight should be banned in Brawl. Because I want a balanced, varied metagame, no matter what characters I play, and banning customs is counterproductive. Nice try though. I guess. Do you even know what the word hypocrite means?

"And i never once said that i was in favor of a ban"
That's funny, I never said you were, either! I assumed you would be for some sort of restriction. If anything you're the one strawmanning, seeing as you tried calling me a hypocrite? Because I main Villager?

I'm not putting arguments into your mouth, I'm deconstructing the arguments you yourself have made. There is a logical disparity going on in your rhetoric which you seem to refuse to acknowledge. "'Why would you want to create more bad matchups' is a legitimate argument if its an effect of giving character X access to resources a, b, and c! But not if the same would happen by not allowing character X access to resources a, b, and c!"

My opinions, what I'm arguing, they go past the "issue" of Villager. I'm concerning myself with the health of the metagame as a whole. When you say that we are consciously creating more bad matchups by... I don't know honestly, what exactly are you saying is the root of the bad matchups? The customs? The strategy? It doesn't matter. Bad matchups will always exist, and when you are in favour of placing restrictions on characters you are consciously creating more bad matchups. What arguments am I putting into your mouth there? "You are purposefully limiting variables"? The irony. There is nothing cerebral about making every hit count?

I honestly don't know what to say anymore. You'll probably just dismiss it as me putting arguments into your mouth (when in reality I'm just applying your same exact arguments differently to put them in perspective) or being a "hypocrite".

At least we do agree on ledge grab limits, but you and I both know that that's unrealistic. They don't work because they're difficult to enforce. I would however be wholly in favour of some way of limiting planking without taking away Villager's (or any other characters', for that matter) best assets.

Here's another one of your statements that I take issue with and plays to the overarching point I'm trying to address.

Their playstyles are design flaws because the way they play is "boring". That is essentially what you are saying. You are saying that their characteristics are "massive design flaws" because they encourage "boring" play. This is a truly poisonous way of thinking. If it's boring, it's a design flaw. A perfect metagame is a metagame where every character plays offense. A perfect metagame is a stale metagame (and before you try to bring up the fact that I play Villager and Rosalina, I do play Greninja and Shulk as well).

I'll never understand this. I'll never understand why anything besides aggresive play is broken, is degenerate, is flawed. This is what I am arguing against.

And, if that's not what you were saying, if that's not what you meant, if I'm putting arguments in your mouth, I would really appreciate if you could elaborate. What are these characters' "massive design flaws"? Why are these even flaws? If you can explain that without pulling the "because it's boring" card (or, are they flaws because they make things boring, or is the "boringness" simply an effect of their flaws? That'd be legitimately interesting to read), I'll be thoroughly impressed.

My hypocrite comment was in reference to the fact that you pointed out that I play Ike as if it was some kind of counter to the initial point that i was making by bringing the character up in the first place. Whether you recognize that someone is going to call you out on it is irrelevant. So you can call my points flawed because I played a character I mentioned, but no one can do the same because you said what amounts to "inb4"? I don't follow.

other than that, I am only going to touch upon the last comment you made, as a lot of the other parts of your comment were either a repeat of something you already said, which we fundamentally disagree on, or it was just your opinion (funny because all of this is mine yet somehow less valid)

In either case i will expand upon what I meant by flawed design somewhat, even though it's slightly off topic, because you asked. No,it's not because they are boring, though I'm sure you wish that is what i would say. Boringness is occasionally caused by flaws, but they are more related to centralizing aspects of the character. Generally speaking, it is poor fighting game design in my opinion if a few small aspects of one character nullify or greatly repress a significant portion of another characters strategy etc. As a quick example, take a look at Rosa's gravity move and how it impacts the Pac-Man match up. It does very little to Rosa but it forces PacMan to play a totally different game than he normally can just because of character selection. A characters bread and butter, a core concept behind them, should not be so drastically changed by something like character choice. There are better examples of this across the characters I mentioned before, but hopefully you get the basic idea; this isn't really the thread for this.

 

[Earthboundy]

Villy's exploding balloons need to be banned. It's not even about him planking, it's the fact that they **** over about half the cast's recovery with no effort. I swear, custom Villy could be the new Meta Knight.

 

[S_B]

Villy's exploding balloons need to be banned. It's not even about him planking, it's the fact that they **** over about half the cast's recovery with no effort. I swear, custom Villy could be the new Meta Knight.

I believe ~30% of the cast is completely nullified by vanilla Diddy and Shiek.

Should we ban them, too?

 

[Muro]

Villy's exploding balloons need to be banned. It's not even about him planking, it's the fact that they **** over about half the cast's recovery with no effort. I swear, custom Villy could be the new Meta Knight.

He won't be OP, but he'll be boring as hell to watch.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

My hypocrite comment was in reference to the fact that you pointed out that I play Ike as if it was some kind of counter to the initial point that i was making by bringing the character up in the first place. Whether you recognize that someone is going to call you out on it is irrelevant. So you can call my points flawed because I played a character I mentioned, but no one can do the same because you said what amounts to "inb4"? I don't follow.

other than that, I am only going to touch upon the last comment you made, as a lot of the other parts of your comment were either a repeat of something you already said, which we fundamentally disagree on, or it was just your opinion (funny because all of this is mine yet somehow less valid)

In either case i will expand upon what I meant by flawed design somewhat, even though it's slightly off topic, because you asked. No,it's not because they are boring, though I'm sure you wish that is what i would say. Boringness is occasionally caused by flaws, but they are more related to centralizing aspects of the character. Generally speaking, it is poor fighting game design in my opinion if a few small aspects of one character nullify or greatly repress a significant portion of another characters strategy etc. As a quick example, take a look at Rosa's gravity move and how it impacts the Pac-Man match up. It does very little to Rosa but it forces PacMan to play a totally different game than he normally can just because of character selection. A characters bread and butter, a core concept behind them, should not be so drastically changed by something like character choice. There are better examples of this across the characters I mentioned before, but hopefully you get the basic idea; this isn't really the thread for this.

That's not what I meant at all. You were complaining that Ike v Villager is unwinnable with customs. I pointed out that in that case you should pick up another character to deal with that matchup. That's all there is to it. I am not and have not been hinging my arguments on the characters you play.

We're arguing opinions. I am going to believe my opinion is valid. You are going to believe yours is valid. Why would you even bother commenting on that?

I am actually glad your explanation did not center on some sort of excitement-factor. I don't understand why you would think I was hoping it would. I was expecting it would since yours and many others' previous arguments have focused on whether or not something is boring, but I wasn't hoping for that. In any case I sincerely appreciate the insight. While I do agree Gravitational Pull shuts down an absolute staple of Pac-Man's playstyle, I wouldn't say it's centralising, considering it really only affects five characters, off the top of my head; Pac-Man, ROB's Gyro+Laser play, Duck Hunt, Mega Man, and Bowser Jr's Mechakoopas. Even then DH can apply pressure by alternating the rhythm of its projectiles so the second and third hit while GP is in cooldown from nullifying the first. Mega Man can pressure with lemons and has just the huge arsenal of projectiles he has in general but... well, this is another good video showing how you can win a difficult matchup.

 

[Gawain]

That's not what I meant at all. You were complaining that Ike v Villager is unwinnable with customs. I pointed out that in that case you should pick up another character to deal with that matchup. That's all there is to it. I am not and have not been hinging my arguments on the characters you play.

We're arguing opinions. I am going to believe my opinion is valid. You are going to believe yours is valid. Why would you even bother commenting on that?

I am actually glad your explanation did not center on some sort of excitement-factor. I don't understand why you would think I was hoping it would. I was expecting it would since yours and many others' previous arguments have focused on whether or not something is boring, but I wasn't hoping for that. In any case I sincerely appreciate the insight. While I do agree Gravitational Pull shuts down an absolute staple of Pac-Man's playstyle, I wouldn't say it's centralising, considering it really only affects five characters, off the top of my head; Pac-Man, ROB's Gyro+Laser play, Duck Hunt, Mega Man, and Bowser Jr's Mechakoopas. Even then DH can apply pressure by alternating the rhythm of its projectiles so the second and third hit while GP is in cooldown from nullifying the first. Mega Man can pressure with lemons and has just the huge arsenal of projectiles he has in general but... well, this is another good video showing how you can win a difficult matchup.

I never said Ike v. Villager was unwinnable. I said it was not thought provoking or interesting. It essentially devolves into hit trading/pure punish. And that's really no fun to play or watch if you ask me.The novelty wears out extraordinarily quick.

My point in all of this is that the design of moves like the ones we've been talking about are inherently flawed because they feel like they are built to counter strategies and specific things by design, not to assist in a characters game from their own perspective. What this results in is characters being designed around literally doing nothing(or very little) proactively. And that's honestly not interesting for a fighting game. Think of it this way: if you take a fighter like Street Fighter IV and you want to make an unbeatable AI, all it would do is react to everything its opponent does. There is no advantage to being proactive if you are frame perfect (this is a gross simplification but the basic point is easy to see). The reason there is an advantage to pushing an offensive and actually making your opponent do things is because people aren't frame perfect and can't read inputs. But if you were to reduce the requirements to play a perfectly reactive game (IE reducing the variables, increasing reaction windows) then players start to play more defensively. This is why guys like Dabuz are able to play so reactively to their opponents: it's a strong strategy with few drawbacks when applied to certain characters. If you ask me, and a lot of others will agree I feel, it's not fair for one opponent to always have to be proactive and be given no advantage for doing it. The player should be rewarded for backing their opponent to the ledge. The ledge should not be an extremely advantageous position in most situations. It should be disadvantageous to be on the ledge while your opponent is on the stage. The point of the game is getting people off stage.

To talk a little more about Villager, he's essentially a trap character that wasn't given enough thought on his custom moves (in my opinion). Take a look at most other trap-based characters. Byakuya from Under Night In-Birth for example, lays webs down that function in a comparable fashion to the custom tree (tree causes trips, webs cause stun). The difference is that the opponent can actually hit Byakuya's traps to disable them. There is NOTHING the opponent can do about the tree sapling but wait for it to expire. I honestly would not gripe about this move if you could just hit it once to make it disappear in its sapling form. It's too good to not have this.

TLDR: This is starting to get a little incoherent so I'm going to end it on this: what a lot of these moves do is reward reactive play too much. Not saying that there should be no reward for making the right reads and what not, but it shouldn't be taken to the extreme that it is. The player should be rewarded for going after their opponent more than they should be for doing nothing but react. Though, dramatically increasing shield stun and push would do more for this than removing customs or tweaking characters ever would.

 

[Koq | Milkman]

Not sure if I just suck, haven't had time to look for a god counter to it, but I feel like Sonic's custom side B is a little bit unfair. I only played it once and I couldn't handle it, it was unpunishable and I couldn't get in. I know the best way to deal with it is practice, but I was just wondering if anyone else thinks it's a little questionable, since the guy that beat me with it is beating a lot of people in the area using custom sonic.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Not sure if I just suck, haven't had time to look for a god counter to it, but I feel like Sonic's custom side B is a little bit unfair. I only played it once and I couldn't handle it

Just sayin'. As for punishing it, Sonic is now way above you in the air. This is typically a pretty lousy position for pretty much any character.

 

[Earthboundy]

I believe ~30% of the cast is completely nullified by vanilla Diddy and Shiek.

Should we ban them, too?

The issue is that a skilled player can take down Diddy or Shiek, and it's fun to watch a match between them. Custom villy can win by literally just edge hogging. It's boring to watch and will kill the game.

 

[S_B]

The issue is that a skilled player can take down Diddy or Shiek, and it's fun to watch a match between them.

1. Actually, we're at the point where Shiek and Diddy have enough matchups that are 7+ in their favor that, no, evenly-skilled players CANNOT take them down, at least not with any of the cast that are unfortunate enough to be 3:7 or worse against them.

2. I don't find it fun to watch matches between Diddy and Shiek. I've seen YEARS worth of Diddy and Shiek inside of just a few months since this game has been out. How many times are we going to watch Diddy run in for a grab and then dthrow to uair? Seriously, it's like watching a goddamn script play out at this point. Shiek is slightly less canned, but still relies heavily on Fair escorts following by bouncing fish.

Custom villy can win by literally just edge hogging. It's boring to watch and will kill the game.

1. As someone else pointed out, no matches were more spectated than ADHD's custom villager matches because people wanted to see who could beat him, and they cheered super loud every time someone KOed him.

2. Where the HELL are people coming up with this idea that these customs are going to "kill the game" when these customs haven't even taken a SINGLE major tournament yet?!

In the tournament where ADHD brought this strategy? He was ultimately knocked out of the tournament by someone playing Pikachu who DOESN'T EVEN PLAY PIKACHU!!! That's right: custom villager was undone by someone spamming thunderjolt at him since it hits people on the ledge.

The time to start worrying about customs is when they've been winning major tournaments on a regular basis and it appears that no one can beat the strategy. As of yet, they've not even taken a single major tournament.

 

[Gawain]

1. Actually, we're at the point where Shiek and Diddy have enough matchups that are 7+ in their favor that, no, evenly-skilled players CANNOT take them down, at least not with any of the cast that are unfortunate enough to be 3:7 or worse against them.

2. I don't find it fun to watch matches between Diddy and Shiek. I've seen YEARS worth of Diddy and Shiek inside of just a few months since this game has been out. How many times are we going to watch Diddy run in for a grab and then dthrow to uair? Seriously, it's like watching a goddamn script play out at this point. Shiek is slightly less canned, but still relies heavily on Fair escorts following by bouncing fish.



1. As someone else pointed out, no matches were more spectated than ADHD's custom villager matches because people wanted to see who could beat him, and they cheered super loud every time someone KOed him.

2. Where the HELL are people coming up with this idea that these customs are going to "kill the game" when these customs haven't even taken a SINGLE major tournament yet?!

In the tournament where ADHD brought this strategy? He was ultimately knocked out of the tournament by someone playing Pikachu who DOESN'T EVEN PLAY PIKACHU!!! That's right: custom villager was undone by someone spamming thunderjolt at him since it hits people on the ledge.

The time to start worrying about customs is when they've been winning major tournaments on a regular basis and it appears that no one can beat the strategy. As of yet, they've not even taken a single major tournament.

Alright, I'm sorry but I've just got to point this out: people thought it was funny and ridiculous the first time but the novelty of the strategy quickly wears off. No one is going to want to consistently see that strategy, it simplifies the game to the extreme. And I don't think Diddy and Sheik are as bad as you are making them out to be. There will always be top tiers, and there are still plenty of characters that contend with them. To top it off,they're almost certainly getting tweaked in the new patch so I really don't see the point in complaining about them. It's not like they net free wins due to cheese, you still have to outplay your opponent

 

[PUK]

Ike villager match up is, from my experience, easier with custom than without. It's like ike megaman or ike rosalina, or ike rob. Custom makes thing less frustrating, but don't make the MU positif for ike.

 

[S_B]

Alright, I'm sorry but I've just got to point this out: people thought it was funny and ridiculous the first time but the novelty of the strategy quickly wears off. No one is going to want to consistently see that strategy

NO ONE is going to.

Custom villager? Counterpick vanilla Pikachu = you win.

All the complaints about customs are 100% invalid until we've actually seen a custom that people can't figure out how to beat.

Diddy and Shiek are 10X more ban-worthy right now because we legitimately have a sizable chunk of the roster they completely invalidate, and yet no one is calling for banning THEM...

 

[Maple42]

Banning moves should be a last resort; it may not seem like it, but it is a very extreme action to say, "you can't use this move because it's too powerful."
How are we defining "too powerful?" Moves that come to mind are things like Donkey Kong's custom Up-B. However, it doesn't seem very valid to ban it, simply because we have a notion that it is vaguely "too good" to handle.

It is my belief that something should be banned when, and only when, it absolutely dominates a tournament; for example, Brawl Meta Knight; if you knew a lick of how to play him, and you played someone who didn't play Meta Knight, then you would win. We don't see Donkey Kongs winning tournaments left and right, and therefore we shouldn't ban it; it is only a problem when it is the only viable option in the game.

Until we have proof (i.e. several tournaments were the only character that topped is the one using a "broken" custom), then we don't have any reason to ban said custom.

 

[S_B]

Until we have proof (i.e. several tournaments were the only character that topped is the one using a "broken" custom), then we don't have any reason to ban said custom.

Exactly.

These "janky" customs have yet to take any major (or minor) tournament that I'VE seen...

 

[Koq | Milkman]

Just sayin'. As for punishing it, Sonic is now way above you in the air. This is typically a pretty lousy position for pretty much any character.

I get that he's way above and all and upairs should punish, but you can jump cancel the move and avoid being punished very easily, plus sonic can get around pretty quick and just do it again after landing. As a falcon main I know my upairs are supposed to be a great option, but they didn't dodoanything, as opposed to how well they work against default sonic. I'll test it out some more but I see a lot of people not being able to counter this yet where I play, just think when it's abused it's unpunishable a little too often.
Not saying anything should definitively be banned, but I don't think it shouldn't be considered. I don't even want customs to be the competitive standard, not all characters have customs that change their game for the better as well as others.

 

[PUK]

That's very selfish

 

[FooltheFlames]

Honestly, there's no reason to ban anything until it wins multiple high profile tournaments.

It's annoying, sure, but we've seen jankier stuff in vanilla fighters already and we haven't banned that.

That makes sense & seems fair to me!
I just dont understand what's holding people back from allowing custom moves in Tourneys already then
Seriously whats the hold up?

OH!
And this just in everyone: Mewtwo has no custom moves!

 

[S_B]

I expect M2 will get some customs in a later patch.

 

[FooltheFlames]

I expect M2 will get some customs in a later patch.

He should! Otherwise it's just going to make the effort to get custom moves legalized in tourney's all the more difficult (naysayers will be using this as another excuse to not let them in since it's not fair to every character or sumthin)

 

[Teshie U]

I'm guessing DLC characters dont get customs.

The game plainly says "There are no custom moves" for some reason.

Considering they could have gone the lazy route and have piercing/slow/snaring/melee shadow ball and hitbox/onlygoesup/spikes up b, I feel like if he was going to have customs he would already have them.

I can't really figure why he wouldnt have them though.

Has anyone tweeted Sakurai?