Should any specific customs be banned?

[TheHypnotoad]

So, the general consensus from most people (at least, most people on Smashboards) is that custom moves are good, and should not be banned at tournaments. However, I want to know if people think that there are any particular custom moves that should be banned, for whatever reason. Many people who are anti-customs have brought up that some moves are broken (Kong Cyclone being the most mentioned), so all custom moves should be banned. But I want to hear from the pro-customs people if there are any particular moves they believe should be banned.

I personally believe that Villager's Timber Counter should be banned. If it were like Diddy's bananas and only tripped someone once before disappearing it would be fine, but it can trip multiple times without disappearing, and it can't be picked up. It essentially makes Villager impossible to approach. Grounded approach? Trip on the sapling. Aerial approach? Slingshot. Projectile camp? Pocket and Gyroid. If the stage doesn't have any platforms, Villager is pretty much untouchable. One of the arguments in favor of custom moves is that they make the game more aggressive, but Timber Counter makes it extremely campy. Villager is already one of the campiest characters in the game, and Timber Counter just makes him even more campy.

So that's my argument for banning Timber Counter, anyway. Do you guys think that there are any custom moves that should be banned?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The only custom I'll entertain thoughts of banning is Order Tackle in doubles due to the glitch where it permanently amps the Pikmin if the target has a reflector up. In singles it's not an issue because there's no good reason to reflect it once you know what happens when you do.

Timber Counter is not broken. It's an amazing stage control tool, but in exchange he loses power on the watering can's windbox, the axe, and the tree itself both growing and falling. Also consider that even though the sapling can't budge, this also means that Villager can't throw it in your face for easy followups like Diddy can with his bananas, and transforming stages tend to leave it behind. And if you manage to move the fight away from the sapling there's nothing Villager can do but wait for it to die.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Villager hates flat stages, even with Counter Timber. Villager doesn't have godlike followups from a trip like Diddy does. If youre at KO percent youre gonna get BThrown but in that case they have to be set up at the edge, giving you a huge space to do whatever you want. Otherwise youre going to get FSmashed (launching you inwards, so the worst that will happen is that you will be back at square one in terms of gaining ground), uh DTilted, UTilted, NAired I guess? Although I will admit that, like you said, the point of Counter Timber is to make approaching Villager harder. You can always just camp out the sapling until it goes away. If Villager is at the ledge slingshots won't reach you and you should not be getting hit by Lloid.

You can also counterpick to stages with transformations like Delfino and Wuhu. Sapling is normally less effective on those stages.

Also I dont understand where the idea that customs are supposed to make the game more "fast paced" comes from. In my opinion customs are supposed to add diversity to the characters you see in tournaments by giving them the tools to be "top tier" threats. Melee is apparently the game all other Smash installments want to emulate because of how fast paced and aggressive and exciting it is, and this comes with absolutely deplorable character diversity. If youre suggesting we ban Counter Timber because it makes it makes Villager hard to approach, why dont we ban standard Monkey Flip as well? The fact that you can't safely shield it because Diddy can just forego the kick for the grab instead, and that the kick is an incredibly safe approaching option, in my opinion, makes it ban worthy under your criteria.

All that being said I think Storm Punch is pretty crazy. Its an incredibly powerful and long-ranged windbox that can be stored for use at any point in your stock. The fact that it also has a damaging hitbox at the punch means it far outclasses others like Storm Thrust, FLUDD, and Bowser Jrs wind cannon (what is that called again...). The only other wind customs that come close are Doc and Marios, since they have large windboxes with minimal startup and endlag.

 

[Zylach]

The only custom that is ban-worthy is Olimar's order tackle in doubles and that is it. Unless we find any other customs that are literally broken like that one is, none of them deserve to be banned. All customs have ways around them. I've faced and beaten Kong Cyclone DK's. It's not ban-worthy. You just have to learn how to stop it. A lot of people that talk about banning customs simply don't want to learn how to counter them imo and those that think "strong" customs should be banned should probably take a hard look at their own characters' customs because there are a lot of strong customs out there that can counter other customs.

 

[Balgorxz]

order tackle is glitched so its probably going to get patched so I have no worries about it, only happens with reflectors anyways if you don't want to get destroyed just don't reflect it , is that easy.
apart from that no other move deserves ban, i

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hey guys, you all remember the last major tournament with customs legal?

Me neither.

Anyone talking about banning anything at this point in the meta is nuts.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Hey guys, you all remember the last major tournament with customs legal?

Me neither.

Anyone talking about banning anything at this point in the meta is nuts.

We can form opinions based on what we've seen so far. There's nothing saying we can't change our opinions later after we've seen more.

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

No move is ban worthy beyond Order Tackle in Doubles due to the glitch.

 

[Raijinken]

We can form opinions based on what we've seen so far. There's nothing saying we can't change our opinions later after we've seen more.

Based on what I've seen so far, only the Order Tackle glitch is banworthy for doubles, as it's a glitch (though I've seen things that make me think people won't feel a glitch is banworthy, which is fine, too, I guess). Literally everything else has tradeoffs, and while some of the tradeoffs make the custom almost entirely better (Power Vision, for instance, since you shouldn't really be spamming counter anyway) better, none of those are apparently broken. Anyone who has issues with Kong Cyclone or Timber Counter should just practice 'em for a while. Both are extremely manageable, and especially for DK, one decent custom doesn't come close to breaking the character.

Not one custom or character has proven itself able to consistently beat Sheik or Diddy, and what kind of reasoning suggests banning something second-best?

 

[deepseadiva]

Unless a custom special suddenly makes a character better than Diddy Kong, there's no need to humor ban language. Are we really saying Villager/DK/whoever is suddenly better and dominate over Diddy Kong/Sheik/Rosalina? If that's not the case... there's no ground for any banning and you all need to callmmmmmm downnnnnnnnnn.

I will say this though: if needed, banning specials can be done very easily. I know someone in the character impressions threads compared banning specific customs was like banning Diddy's Uair (I think it was my Peach homie @ Nabbitnator ). But uair is part of Diddy's permanent moveset, customs we can switch on and off. We already ban Tackle Order in doubles, and that's done very easily.

The problem with banning is that it needs to happen universally. If a ban is not accepted everywhere, the few regions that do implement a ban put themselves at a massive disadvantage - not training with and against a powerful technique puts your players in a unprepared position. So if a region does decide to ban Kong Cyclone or something, they need to be confident the rest of the scene will follow with that banning, or suffer whenever they travel to other regions that have decided that custom is beatable and not worth banning.

But again, I've yet to see Kong Cyclone or Timber Counter make either DK or Villager dominate monsters, let alone take several first place wins anywhere.

 

[XIIHangman]

One thing I would like to establish is that making customs legal doesn't force everyone to have to use them. Yes it forces TOs to go about unlocking them all, which is a pain of an achievement, but it still allows people to play with their 1111 sets if they choose to. All customs would accomplish this early in SmashWiiU's metagame is bringing less viable characters to even ground. Some characters don't have customs that make them any better than previously, and for a good chunk of the custom moves they're nothing more than gimmicks that can work in some instances and fail in most.

With that out of the way, vanilla Diddy Kong isn't banned because there's ways around Diddy, he isn't an infallible, insurmountable terror similar to Pikachu in 64 (arguable) or Meta Knight in Brawl (certainly). Kong Cyclone and Counter Timber shouldn't be banned because they to aren't insurmountable terrors, they're simply tools that a character has access to that has potential to make them more of a challenge to fight. Someone picking up Diddy doesn't automatically make them a monster, and the same can be said for someone picking up the custom moves of DK, Villager, and any other character with custom moves with potential to make a character more "viable". The motion to ban Tackle Order is only because of a specific bug in 2v2s, and once it gets patched (if it gets patched) then it won't need a ban at all. I think we shouldn't ban anything anywhere as it's far too early in the meta game to see if any one character or custom set is fundamentally broken or unfair to the point where it needs to be eliminated.

 

[Djent]

's Order Tackle should probably be banned in doubles. For reference, it's at least harder to set up than the / Thunder Bucket Challenge, but Pikmin are reusable which is kind of nuts. I'd still understand if people want to give it a shot though, just as they did with previous kill combos.

In singles, nothing appears truly banworthy. While I am worried about 's Timber Counter, it's more of an "aww man this MU is going to be boring" rather than a "holy **** how do I beat this character?" worry. And even if it was the latter, I'd still say give it a chance since unlike Order Tackle, it has no precedent analog.

 

[HeroMystic]

All that being said I think Storm Punch is pretty crazy. Its an incredibly powerful and long-ranged windbox that can be stored for use at any point in your stock. The fact that it also has a damaging hitbox at the punch means it far outclasses others like Storm Thrust, FLUDD, and Bowser Jrs wind cannon (what is that called again...). The only other wind customs that come close are Doc and Marios, since they have large windboxes with minimal startup and endlag.

I would actually say Mario's HP FLUDD is pretty close at matching Storm Punch's shenanigans at full charge and it can be used more liberally, but the fact that Storm Punch has better on-stage application makes it better.

 

[digiholic]

Yeah! Let's start banning overpowered moves!

I think we should ban Diddy's Banana. It's great stage control and trips people, leading to a guaranteed Fsmash! We should also ban R.O.B.'s robo burner. That thing gives him practically infinite recovery! What about Sonic's Spin Dash! He can jump out of it and combo into his aerials! Bouncing Fish kills way too early, let's ban it too! Luigi's uppercut is way too strong, he shouldn't be allowed to use it! And Monkey Flip clashes too many moves while being reliable movement option, get rid of it! PK Fire combos into a killing back throw, ban it! Marth's shield breaker breaks shields in one hit! How is that even legal?


Don't ban customs just because they break the status quo. Donkey Kong with the cyclone has every right to be top tier as Diddy and Sheik do. You don't ban defaults, you don't ban customs. End of story.

 

[Piford]

I'd be fine with banning a custom move eventually after thorough research and actual tournament data. Right now it's very early in the meta and we need research and experimentation before concluding anything is broken.

But I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if moves get banned early on anyways. This is the smash community, someone says Customs are legal, and the immediate response was "which ones should we ban."

 

[popsofctown]

If I could do it secretly and without community backlash, I would ban RNG custom move slots down to their least RNG forms, Floaty/Heavy Turnip, chain judgement, and quick luigi missile only.

Does Diddy have a form of barrel pack that doesn't randomly KO people based on the whims of the barrels? that'd be awesome.

 

[digiholic]

If I could do it secretly and without community backlash, I would ban RNG custom move slots down to their least RNG forms, Floaty/Heavy Turnip, chain judgement, and quick luigi missile only.

Does Diddy have a form of barrel pack that doesn't randomly KO people based on the whims of the barrels? that'd be awesome.

RNG moves aren't problematic enough to warrant that.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yeah! Let's start banning overpowered moves!

I think we should ban Diddy's Banana. It's great stage control and trips people, leading to a guaranteed Fsmash! We should also ban R.O.B.'s robo burner. That thing gives him practically infinite recovery! What about Sonic's Spin Dash! He can jump out of it and combo into his aerials! Bouncing Fish kills way too early, let's ban it too! Luigi's uppercut is way too strong, he shouldn't be allowed to use it! And Monkey Flip clashes too many moves while being reliable movement option, get rid of it! PK Fire combos into a killing back throw, ban it! Marth's shield breaker breaks shields in one hit! How is that even legal?


Don't ban customs just because they break the status quo. Donkey Kong with the cyclone has every right to be top tier as Diddy and Sheik do. You don't ban defaults, you don't ban customs. End of story.

This. All of this.

The most bannable customs right now? Monkey Flip, Bouncing Fish, Boost Kick. Seriously.

 

[thehard]

Hell no.
(This is why I love you guys, liberal rulesets 4 life)

 

[popsofctown]

RNG moves aren't problematic enough to warrant that.

It's ok, you wouldn't find out I did it, it would be so secret.

 

[Pyr]

If I could do it secretly and without community backlash, I would ban RNG custom move slots down to their least RNG forms, Floaty/Heavy Turnip, chain judgement, and quick luigi missile only.

Does Diddy have a form of barrel pack that doesn't randomly KO people based on the whims of the barrels? that'd be awesome.

Less then 1/9 chance at a 9 hammer for G&W 1 and 3 Side B. About 1/5 chance for a 9 with Side B 2. 1/8 chance of misfire (iirc) on Weegee, and 1/36 chance at a Stitch/Bomb/Saturn/Sword(maybe? Haven't done too much Peach as of late). These are the odds of getting any of these things to occur. It's been proven that these things aren't so powerful as to propel a character to the tops. RNG exists and it isn't always a bad thing.

 

[Karinole]

I personally love seeing more characters like Donkey Kong and WFT get more use do to customs. I think we should give it more time and see if certain custom actually show up as problematic in tournaments in the future, then we should talk about banning them.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Something being "problematic" is in no way grounds for considering a ban. Theres a difference between problematic and broken.

Anyway if Timber Counter were Villagers default while Timber were a custom, we probably wouldnt even be having this discussion. Why is there such an aversion to mixing up a characters moveset?

 

[Shaya]

There should be more devil's advocates.

Arrogance doesn't get us anywhere (kettle/black/etc). I'm yet to hear people who are anti-certain customs say they will refuse to participate in events with them, they're in particular highlighting the possibility of their impacts. It took Ice Climbers 4+ years to become a force strong enough to KILL A GAME COMPLETELY (whatever was left of it), although their game play was routinely called out as being extremely degenerative (and was actually banned in a lot of places by a lot of scenes earlier on) in all regions which they had active players of them (people using them even doing so for the sake of 'proving' it), while those outside of those regions and scope of understanding (i.e. most people, because how many are actually high level players? hint: no one in this thread / how many were exposed to it directly in tournament setting? even less people) would purport with "you're scrubs" and "get better".

While none of these customs specials may make them better than Diddy Kong, that shouldn't exactly be a goal nor a fair standard of what should be banned.
If there was a non-discrete means of turning off diddy d/u throws or his up air (whatever), we probably would (i.e. TURN RAGE OFF).

A move inside a vacuum is one way to think about it. "Nothing else in the game is remotely comparable".
A move in the context of the character's moveset is another. "This character's capabilities are only increased by this leading to more degenerative game play than before"

Tell me there's nothing like Bouncing Fish or Monkey Flip in this game. Tell me those moves are the focus/centre of those characters game play and impact on every phase/state of a particular game.

Time is nigh in terms of how long we could feasibly hold off before making any such decision (about banning individual customs).
I don't think the wider audience is going to appreciate 5 minute games with certain moves. "pick someone else" is a good response. Petty, but good.
Just because these moves aren't good enough to instantly decide matches (i.e. pre-patch Pika/G&W or if trip sapling killed at 0%) doesn't mean they aren't dangerous or problematic.

Calling for their bans now is only applicable in my eyes because of this "evo deadline". I'd rather see them played out properly and continually and see the adaptions made by the best players. Hopefully more than one high level player per tournament is able to beat the guy using DK/Villager in Grand Finals who's barely scratched top 8 at any event EVER, because otherwise it just doesn't reflect well on its competitive merits. Saying it's too early is fine (albeit lazy and eventually causes even more issues because it's always 'too early'), denying it completely is being part of the problem.

 

[deepseadiva]

The hidden benefit to a all-specials legal ruleset might just be the fact that we can now ban janky specials pretty easily.

Not that I'm personally advocating that, but since so many TOs are all about molding the game into exactly what they want it to be, allowing all specials means we can turn off any ones we super don't like (which includes the defaults!). Imagine a Brawl where we didn't need to outright ban Meta Knight, but instead just neuter his Shuttle Loop and Mach Tornado.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I believe that after EVO we can express banning customs, but not unless we are willing to put normal specials under the same scrutiny provided time proves their degeneration. Timber counter may prove to be a degenerative move in the long run, but unlike the Ice Climbers, I feel like it won't take too long for that move to prove itself.

In the few months we have to test, unless something shocking happens, no banning discussion is necessary.

And even if the banning of certain moves becomes noteworthy discussion, it should not be done without heavy consideration of the consequences. You are taking away great options from villager mains, and thus putting them at a disadvantage in the custom meta, basically nullifying the point of introducing customs in the first place. This can also spur reckless banning in general.

So take care of choices.

 

[Piford]

I believe that after EVO we can express banning customs, but not unless we are willing to put normal specials under the same scrutiny provided time proves their degeneration. Timber counter may prove to be a degenerative move in the long run, but unlike the Ice Climbers, I feel like it won't take too long for that move to prove itself.

In the few months we have to test, unless something shocking happens, no banning discussion is necessary.

And even if the banning of certain moves becomes noteworthy discussion, it should not be done without heavy consideration of the consequences. You are taking away great options from villager mains, and thus putting them at a disadvantage in the custom meta, basically nullifying the point of introducing customs in the first place. This can also spur reckless banning in general.

So take care of choices.

The only issue with banning a default special compared to a custom special is that if you ban a default special you now can't run 1111, which makes that character have 1 less set than everyone else. You could of course make it so that the only set a banned default special is allowed to run is 1111, but if that special was worth banning it's likely that people will just only use 1111. It's something that would need to be well thought out.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Less then 1/9 chance at a 9 hammer for G&W 1 and 3 Side B. About 1/5 chance for a 9 with Side B 2. 1/8 chance of misfire (iirc) on Weegee, and 1/36 chance at a Stitch/Bomb/Saturn/Sword(maybe? Haven't done too much Peach as of late). These are the odds of getting any of these things to occur. It's been proven that these things aren't so powerful as to propel a character to the tops. RNG exists and it isn't always a bad thing.

Peach's is a bit odd because sometimes you will get 2-3 stitch faces in a row and in some cases 2 bombs in a row so her chances are odd.

As for banning customs. Unless its something completely busted in which there is no way to research a way to avoid a move completely or mitigate its merits then I think it should be banned. I think we just need to put some more research into these moves first. I think one way that would help people learn about what each custom does is to make a chart containing all the character's custom moves with a short explanation of each moves purpose and one to two examples of how they are implemented during a real match. Then from that information people should find ways how to counter that with his or her character and go from there.

 

[balthazar_of_bahgdad]

the tripping seed is op as ****, you can camp that **** and just win, and the hitbox is wild, that **** is op. ban that **** d1 style

 

[digiholic]

the tripping seed is op as ****, you can camp that **** and just win, and the hitbox is wild, that **** is op. ban that **** d1 style

Someone hasn't had their coffee this morning.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

the tripping seed is op as ****, you can camp that **** and just win, and the hitbox is wild, that **** is op. ban that **** d1 style

Just out of curiosity, how much time have you spent developing counter-strategies to this tactic?

 

[warriorman222]

the tripping seed is op as ****, you can camp that **** and just win, and the hitbox is wild, that **** is op. ban that **** d1 style

You're joking, right?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Peach's is a bit odd because sometimes you will get 2-3 stitch faces in a row and in some cases 2 bombs in a row so her chances are odd.

As for banning customs. Unless its something completely busted in which there is no way to research a way to avoid a move completely or mitigate its merits then I think it should be banned. I think we just need to put some more research into these moves first. I think one way that would help people learn about what each custom does is to make a chart containing all the character's custom moves with a short explanation of each moves purpose and one to two examples of how they are implemented during a real match. Then from that information people should find ways how to counter that with his or her character and go from there.

Funny you mention that, @ZarroTsu is doing...well, not quite the same thing but something close to it. Check it out.

 

[1FC0]

If we are going to ban moves then lets ban Killagers pocket because it is huge BS. Killager has it good enough already against R.O.B. without being able to disable one of his best moves. But thanks to Pocket this matchup is about 210:-110 in Killagers favour. The matchup is almost worse than that of Tiny Ganondorf with handicap 300% dmg vs 3 giant metal Meta Knights in SSBB with team attack off.

Killager truly is the psychopath that people make him out to be.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Okay, I feel like I worded my point poorly. Luckily for me, however, there are other people who are capable of wording it better. ZeRo and Mew2king were streaming last night, and someone asked them if they disliked any particular customs. And both of them gave the same answer, without even hesitating: Timber Counter. ZeRo said he didn't like it, and Mew2king wanted it banned entirely. Their reasoning wasn't that it was overpowered; it was that the move was degenerate. Villager is already an extremely campy character, but Timber Counter promotes camping even more than usual. I would say that Timber Counter is analogous to a stage hazard. We don't necessarily ban stage hazards for being "too good"; we ban them for being degenerate or promoting degenerate play. And that is precisely what Timber Counter is doing.

And if you don't believe me, then you can ask ZeRo and Mew2king. Their opinions are probably worth much more than mine.

 

[Zylach]

Ok, I get that campy play is annoying to face but why does that mean it's "degenerate?" What's the big difference between having the best keep-them-out strategy vs. having the best never-let-them-out strategy? Characters that can constantly keep pressure on an opponent by never letting them breathe (Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu, Sonic, etc.) have the opposite extreme to a Villager's Timber Counter/Lloid Rocket/Slingshot fair and bair, but for some reason, whenever someone is kept out of a character's space rather than never being let out of it, they freak out and call this kind of play "degenerate" as if hyper-campy play is going to be the death of the game/meta/etc while long melee true combos (i.e. not letting the other person breathe) are encouraged and wanted by the competitive community as a whole. I get that ZeRo and Mew2king are the best players out there right now but it sounds like they just want to tailor the metagame to suit them by banning something like timber counter that way they don't get inconvenienced by it so they can keep pressuring opponents to their liking.

 

[thehard]

I guess I'll play the part of the pessimist here: What exactly does Timber Counter add to the game? How much does it take away? It doesn't seem fun to fight against, which is a strike against it, but NOTHING should be banned for being "unfun" or "annoying" because that's the scrub's way out (and our legal character roster would consist of just Captain Falcon were that the case).

I think the most important part is that customs are held to the same standard as default. Yes, it's now very easy to ban a particular special, but I'd still want people to look at a 2 or 3 as they would 1.

What would be done with Villager if he came with Timber Counter? What if there were no custom moves in the first place?

It's still way too early to be making any calls. I want to see how this plays out. This means medium-sized to large tournaments with capable players and a good few months of it.

 

[popsofctown]

Timber Counter is a glimpse into another universe, another plane where characters actually have enough setup power to really camp. It totally flips the game upside down and makes it look like something vastly different. Most characters cannot create an advantaged state without striking you, but Timber Counter Villager can actually create an advantaged state out of neutral just by using the move. That doesn't break it, because Villager's advantage state isn't good enough to directly convert timber counter into an instant win or anything like that. But it makes the game feel way way different and is very unique.

If there was only one command grab in the game, people would probably want to ban it, or if the game had only one projectile, or only one super armor, or only on instance of any other paradigm shift. It feels foreign. Being the lone representative of a paradigm shift isn't actually sufficient reason for banning something, though. If anything the real problem is that exposure to the paradigm shift is too limited, and the game needs time to grow so that the paradigm shift character centralizes and goes from being represented based on being 1/50 chance of showing up because the game has 50 characters to being a 1/8 chance of showing up because it's actually one of about 8 major archetypes of strategies.

Brawl ICs that Shaya brings up is also a paradigm shift, and also not banworthy. You fight them entirely differently from other characters. You figure out what subset of your character's moveset is totally and utterly ungrabbable, and use nothing but that. It's still fun, but a different kind of fun. I would argue that the way to improve the inconsistent feel of that radical paradigm shift and its rare appearances would be to add friends, rather than ban the character. E.G., take a low tier, say Link, or Ganon, new rule, you get grabbed by Link or Ganon, you die, you have to jump off stage (yes, very sloppy arbitrary rule, but so is banning a character without immensely strong justification). Suddenly there's more people playing the paradigm shift strategy, and when it happens in tournament, you've seen it before. People aren't complacently playing a high tier that can't avoid getting grabbed and acting shocked when they have a polar matchup, Falcos take a secondary. Even more important than the broadening in the number of characters offering the different style would be the number of human players capable of playing the game in that style, since ICs had a really ridiculous tech floor to chaingrab properly. But that's all really too constructivist to actually do, it's actually better to do neither ruleset activism and let the game do what it will.


In this case the custom moveset project will help timber counter get more consistent exposure so it's less surprising. Maybe if On-Fire Hydrant is more promising than it appears and Pacmen develop around it we could get some plurality to the number of characters with awesome setup gameplay. It just needs to be given time.

 

[warriorman222]

Question number one: If Timber Counter was default, whether or not other customs existed, would you ban it? If the answer is anything but a double-Yes, then you shouldn't ban it now. If we're not giving customs the same standards as defaults, then there is literally one reason not to use 2minute Time with all items on high: Because it
's proven to be uncompetitive. timber Counter hasn't proven to be uncompetitive. So it makes one character more campy. Should Lightweight be banned for making one character more offensive? IF your answer is yes for the former, but no for the latter, then you're kind of biased against defensive play, and therefore shouldn't be the one making decisions like this.

If defensive play can't be accepted like rushdown, which is the only reason to ban Timber Counter without more evidence, then we should ban defensive characters and moves AKA Palutena, Banana, most projectiles and Little Mac. If you won't do that, then you still shouldn't be making these decisions. Aren't all playstyles allowed? or is it only rushdown 4 dayz?

 

[thehard]

I will say that I always get immense satisfaction from busting down tight defenses, and I find push-pull gameplay extremely fun.