Shining Force II Mafia || Game Over! Who lived happily ever after?

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

1 mafia, 1 Indy. That is all that is left.

Ryker getting Indie as a cop result shows the game has an indy.

Multiple factions go out the window with that present. Traitor would counter the Cop but still would be unbalanced with the fact mafia can shoot them. And no, mafia was not just a 2 man with a ninja and a goon, that's unbalanced to mafia.

Mafia had a Ninja and a Goon flip, they have to have something that deals with a cop or other PRs or this is bad design.

Has to be an Indy with one last Mafia.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Gettin all up on other games, gonna come here afterwards. Hold your horses. Also, I gotta go to this AA meeting with my dad at like 6 so if it's not up by then it's up later tonight/early afternoon tomorrow. But probably within a coupl'a hours.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Exactly what I was concerned with

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Problem with phone posting. Talking about Swiss talking about a two man scum team. That or two and a traitor if RR is indy.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Posting what I got so far.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

JDietz and No Lynch conversation was legit, JDeitz didn’t hesitate to answer the questions No Lynch threw at him and they seemed like genuine answers. Meanwhile, I liked No Lynch’s attempt to get info from JDietz and I think he asked the right questions of a new player.



I honestly have no idea, possibly never. Just...be town and make it easy please.

DH’s first post (#45) seems extra suspicious for no apparent reason. Taking that with a grain of salt, however, since I always find his play scummy and I’ve seen him turned into the easy lynch D1 before.

Bleck Mang’s first posts, #53 and #54, are alright, want to see him more engaged in the game knowing how both J and Gorf usually play.

Bardull going after Swiss for his questions which he found “disturbing” seems like the kind of misguided step town would make; if he’s scum, trying to draw Swiss’s attention to him that early is a pretty bold move and I don’t think that was the case.

Bleck Mang’s #80:



Is coming across as passive in dealing with DH. These questions don’t really apply pressure to DH, it’s a very casual way to get information out of DH but I don’t know how much these questions will truly help in establishing a read/scumhunting on DH.

I agree with Swiss’s #92 that Bardull is dumbtown. DH scum I’m not completely sold on; I think what’s more incriminating than his not answering questions/being over defensive is that he seems suspicious of everyone and doesn’t make any attempts to alleviate those suspicions by asking questions, he just continues with his defensiveness and then reinforces his own suspicions based on the other person’s suspicion of himself.

#138 from Bleck Mang:



Is true, but it’s an entire post dedicated to giving advice and not to advancing their read on Bardull.

#144 from No Lynch is probably the best summation of why DH is scummy as opposed to dumb town, reinforces the town read I’m getting on No Lynch as well.



Not yet, the Day is still quite young and there people I’d like to hear more from and suspicions I’d like to see people follow up on toDay as well. However, I will say that DH seems like a viable lynch right now and he is one of the top lynches I am considering.



I would never ignore such a request, but I would reject it.

Ryker already addressed my own question wrt to why you felt the need to warn me against Ryker's request.



I don’t feel like you’ve been taking strong stances all game; even the DH vote seemed pretty weak, and in this post there is just pure indecisiveness about Felipe and no attempts to question him or resolve it.

I like Kuz’s posts, Dietz isn’t someone I paid attention to all that much in my catch-up but after reading his post I went back and checked out his posts, especially the ones interactions with Swiss, and along with his safe play, he didn’t willingly take stances; they were only given because of Swiss’ questions to him.

Anyways, I don’t like DH, and I would like to see Deitz’s reaction to Kuz’s post because I think there are legit points that he needs to address there. Felipe has gathered a lot of attention for possibly being scummy; I actually find him to be leaning town, in that he is playing kinda useless like always but he actually developed a read of his own on No Lynch and on Bardull, despite using questionable tactics to do so. However, my main focus right now is,

Vote: Bleck Mang

I didn’t see anyone really question Bleck Mang or find them suspicious, but all game I’ve found them extremely passive and prone to advice dogging rather than actually giving their opinion on something. Of all the players on the DH wagon (Swiss, Ryker, Bleck Mang, and No Lynch), Bleck Mang provided the least reasoning, and their vote was quite casual and I haven’t found their attempts to apply pressure to DH to be genuine. Finally, there is the indecisiveness over Felipe, which bothers me less than their complacence with that indecisiveness; I want to see them question him, put pressure on him or something, but rather they threw out their opinion on him, weak as it was, and then didn’t really follow up on it. Furthermore, I don’t think many people have paid attention to Bleck and therefore the things I’ve pointed out have just slide under the radar while DH and Felipe took center stage.

K, let's go from things that I dislike the least to things I dislike the most.

This is July's first post. I honestly expect nothing less from July than a wall to kick this game off... But rereading this makes me a bit uneasy. Whether her points on me are justified or not, the fact remains that that's her main focus. At this point of the game there had been plenty of content filled posts to look up and comment on, 300 to be exact. It's just off to me that she went so HAM on us for what, in my opinion, is some menial reasoning. But that may be pushing it.

Oh, and wrt the answer to Ryker's L-1 question... that's really lame. I mean, why even answer that way if not to seem as townie as one can by giving the obvious answer?

What's not pushing it is the very first line in this post. She goes on to talk about NL and Dietz's interaction and calls em both town on it. There was plenty of Dietz talk iirc outside of that at that point, and yet that's all she says. She says that she liked both sides of the argument... and that's it... And is really vague about it too. It weirds me out that July is so willing to brush that aside, as if it doesn't mean much of anything aside from "Meh, they're both town." And then she says she read Kuzi's post and liked what he said about Dietz, and that he wasn't cool... but then totally drops it from there? No inquiries about anything from looking back, nothing really interesting, just... agreeing with it? Okay then...

And finally, look at her stances on Dark Horse. There's so much opportunity that she has to push em, that she has to pressure him, yet she basically takes it upon herself to make herself an agreeing party that doesn't really take action? She does a lot of "I don't like DH" but does nothing about it throughout the post. And the shift off of this later on seems mad grimy but that's to be taken up when we get there.

All in all BOTH of her interactions with both of the flipped scummies seems too off to really just ignore, and in two different ways... But it gets better.

That's fine, you've been quite open about your opinion on many things, I don't expect you to lay all your cards on the table.

Ryker's relationship with certain players (up to the point when you posted this) was mostly focused on him targeting certain players like DH and applying pressure, and I'm okay with that. Having played with Ryker before, I know that him not directly attacking someone or stating a suspicion of someone doesn't mean he isn't paying attention, it just means he's focused somewhere else. His relationship with Swiss was the only other relationship I remember distinctly with them both generally agreeing with each other, but both doing their own thing which is fine by me for now.

I'll answer this question again after reading through all the new stuff as well



I would be pleased, but not surprised. As I stated in the above, I know that just because you don't directly state a suspicion on a player doesn't mean they haven't garnered your attention or suspicions.



Is that opinion on Felipe for both Gord and J (as in neither of you is confident in your ability to read Felipe)?

Your laid back play reminds me tremendously of your play in FFIX before you replaced, and that isn't making me feel any better about your play style this game or your justification for your laid back reads.



RR, I noticed that you stepped in to stop DH from being put at L-1 and your reasons are based on avoiding a quick lynch/being skeptical of voting shenanigans. However, I don't think I've actually seen you give a read on DH. What is your read on DH and what do you think about the wagon that built up on him (when Ryker asked me to put him to L-1 the wagon consisted of No Lynch, Ryker, Swiss, Bleck Mang and felipe, not in that exact order)?

Swiss, read on Bleck Mang?

Post #326 finally gives some reads from Bleck Mang, but I'm not really comforted by them. Putting Swiss/Ryker/Rockin/No Lynch in the ambivalent, okay to let them live for now category is very passive and complacent. What I'm not seeing from this slot is any initiative to go out and get reads on some of the stronger players or really to independently scumhunt. And the suspicions of DH and Jdeitz are so, so very safe.

I didn't mind Kuz's push on Jdeitz, I like seeing how someone reacts to pressure; his #367 is about as genuine of a reaction as I could have expected. It looks like he cracked under the pressure not because he's scummy, but because he had no idea how to handle the situation, and just straight-up spilling your guts like that seems much more likely from noobtown than noobscum who would have partners to help them keep their composure.

Also I like his #386:



The bluntness of that response 1) isn't something I would expect from noobscum, who I think would want to avoid confrontation and just appease whatever requests someone makes, and 2) that mindset, "I don't want to give too much information to someone I think is scum", seems like an inherently town mindset I think it would be hard for Jdeitz to fake.

Disagree with Swiss that Jdeitz would have kept quiet on the gambit if he was town, I don't think he would see any town intent behind doing so and that's understandable. The gambiting strikes me as something Swiss would do no matter what his alignment, so that's null.

Also, just noting that in the midst of this whole thing, RR is talking but it all seems so vague and slightly irrelevant; almost like he's providing commentary and picking out little things like Jdeitz saying that he could se claiming alignment but not role to focus on, but manages to keep his opinion on the important stuff out of it, as in: he doesn't address whether or not he thinks Jdeitz is scummy before or during the neighbor reveal/Swiss gambit, he doesn't address his opinion on the Swiss gambit or on Jdeitz's reaction to it...he's just there the entire time

Bleck Mang, you seem to still think Jdeitz is scum. Thoughts on his #386, and do you think that my interpretation of it (somewhere further up in this post) is inaccurate?



Join you on the RR wagon? Maybe, but I really want to lynch Bleck Mang toDay too ;-;

Lol at Bleck Mang's #520, it looks like you are upset at Kuz for changing his read based on new and game-changing developments in the game. J's post is better, possibly because it takes the complete opposit stance on Jdeitz, but question: why only FoS and HoS, instead of a vote on either RR or Kuz?



Scum read on Jdietz, or just hate the way he's playing? I'm assuming hating Dark Horse still equates to a scum read on him.


Right now I have town reads on NL, Ryker, and JDeitz. Willing to accept Felipe as dumb town. Orbo and dabuz are painfully null. Bleck Mang and RR scum, DH still leaning scummy but tbh that's still based off his early play, his recent posts haven't left an impression on me, possibly because of all the other activity in thread.

Want to see more from Bleck v. Kuzi before giving a Kuz read. Also want to see if it affects my Bleck read(I admit I love watching Kuz and J go head to head <3). Want to hear form Rockin on the neighbor thing before giving a read on him. Swiss is Swiss and I'm not going to pretend to have a solid read on him.

Also sorry for another wall, but you guys post too much and I cbf to break it up, need to get back to studying for midterms.

Here she is going out of her way to express her town feel for JDietz on his bluntness on answering a question, and lists a good amount of things alluding to Dietztown, all of which I find to be really off reasoning... It's really sporadic and hard to follow, and not just because of the flip, just because it's so what the hell awkward.

But another thing is her insistence on getting RR noticed. Now he was and still IS scummy all of D1, but according to her DH is one of her top scum picks... but the only two people she's really getting all up in antics about is me and RR... Seems like a weird thing when DH had capability of having his lynch pull through, and him being one of your top lynchpicks amirite?

Then... she just DROPS her scumDH read. I don't remember any more hearing of it at all through D1, and that's not to say that it's cuz he dropped off the fact of the Earth; multiple people had been commenting on it and whatnot and mentioning em as a scum pick even through his leave of absence. And no, just forgetting isn't a good reason.

Kk, had to break this post down a bit lol.

@Bolded: At this point I don't know who I want to lynch for sure, which is why my vote is not on anyone right now. I still think you could be scum, but you've shown a logical thought process and you've explained your reads significantly well so I don't have issues with you not taking stances or being too vague or casual about your vote anymore. However, there are still a lot of posts that I don't see town intent behind, and I didn't see town intent behind Gord's suspicions of JDeitz, and that's what keeps me cautious about you.

RR was then my second scum pick and undoubtedly if it comes down to him or JDeitz, I would vote RR. I don't want to elaborate on this read yet (don't let me forget about it though, I'll address it when it's pertinent), and I would like to hold off on explaining the question I made blue there until then.

Anyways, at one point you were my top lynch priority with RR a close second and a priority for compromise sake. My lynch preferences kinda looked like this:

|--Orbo/Dabuz------------DH---------RR---Bleck Mang---|

null-------------------Leaning Scum-------------------Scum



Now it's kinda like this:

|--Orbo/Dabuz----------DH--RR--Bleck Mang-------------|

null----------------- Leaning Scum---------------------Scum


Possibly Swiss?



There are some factors I want to take into account for both you and RR that I want to see where they go. For you, a big one was your read on JDeitz and your justification for it. I like that Gord didn't try to bull**** his way through invalidating my second point about JDeitz's #386, that was a good sign to me. DH isn't here so he's just hanging around the scum lean where he left off.

Swiss is difficult, and I want to see why people are suspicious enough and confident in their reads enough want to lynch him toDay. For me, I have weak suspicions of him; I'm not confident he would flip scum and I'm definitely not sure that lynching him toDay is the best plan of action. However, I'd like to hear people's arguments that it is. @Underlined: I don't consider Swiss an easy target; getting people to suspect him and getting him lynched are very different things. Plenty of people suspected him in Britches and Hose, yet getting the lynch through on him simply never happened. Also, if Bleck, Ryker, and obviously Swiss are against it, that makes it 10 people possibly for it. 9 since RR can't vote. Then there are the unknowns (dabuz, Rockin, felipe, orboknown) who I don't honestly know where they would side on a Swiss lynch. So I think it is possible, but not to be taken for granted as an "easy target" or "easy lynch" at all. And like I said, I'm not ready to throw Swiss into the lynch pit yet; I want to see more of the case on him before deciding if the suspicions against him or sufficient for a lynch or not.

This post is SO SAFE. Seriously, it brushes on DH leaning scum, but literally says nothing about it. She even comments on Dabuz and Orbo a little I think... but NOTHING on DH. Just letting him chill on a nice ol' leaning scum seat and looking cute on a scumDH flip. Well, nah, I ain't digging it homie. And plus the whole idea that she'd rather lynch RR (our doc/vig) over Dietz (confirmed scum and an easy person to position a town read on thanks to NL and Kuz).

Dabuz #757 I would like reasons for his reads on DH, Kuz, and RR if he hasn't provided them already. I do agree with him, however, that if JDeitz is playing the noob card, it'll be obvious after another Day or so, so I don't see why he is such a huge threat that he needs to be lynched right now when there is a lot of contrary evidence to the JDietz scum theory.

Swiss does start to provide reasoning in #780 for his push on JDietz, and while I understand not trusting "dumb and honest" play (Ran pulled that in his first newb too), I think that JDietz transcends that combination of safe, dumb, and honest which work together in newb scum. He played safe at first, but once he started playing honest I think a lot of that safety went out the window: I don't think that claiming he had a neighbor was safe, nor providing the name of his neighbor, and I find it a lot less likely it was feed to him, especially with how fast the game was going at that point, and much more likely it is honest and he really is town.

@JDeitz: Your vote is on Swiss correct? In your #813 you say you don't want to lynch Felipe, but you'd be willing to. Who all would you be willing to lynch toDay, and of those people which do you find truly suspicious? Would you lynch Rockin toDay if a wagon formed on him?

@Swiss' #847: Your points on his #247 ("He came off strong digging himself a big hole, then recently has done an ok job of coming back out of it a tad. I'm inclined to side with the people who actually know him to a certain extent though") and this part of his #367: "

Were the strongest part of your case to me, and I did have to go back and look at the context of those because you make some valid points. That doesn't invalidate the points made about why he looks like newb town though. However, why is it so imperative to you that JDeitz is lynch toDay over one of your other scum read? You seem extremely confident that you've nailed JDeitz as scum, do you really think he's that much of a threat that he is the only play possible toDay?

I'm not in favor of lynching you or JDietz toDay, I have a town read on you both. My only reason for considering either of your lynches right now is because I'm not sure you guys can co-exist for another Day phase if both of you make it through toDay -_-

@No Lynch's #848: That's a drastic change in opinion after saying something along the lines of being willing to die for JDeitz...how much were you influenced by Swiss's case, and what parts were convincing to you? (I realize only one head feels this way but I would like that head to answer this please)



When do you think this will be?

@Kuz: I feel like you are ignoring me ;-; Thoughts on Rockin?

The trend with subtly but openly fighting against Dietz' lynch continues. Her tone regarding the Dietz lynch is almost like trying to politely get people off of the lynch... It just doesn't seem real, where Kuz and NL were so openly against the lynch and obviously fighting to not lynch their town read, she was just being kinda wishy washy about it. The way she's defending is so off to me... Like, it's definite, but it's not affirmative. I don't see any effort, I guess is the best way to put it.

MAN getting through July walls is tough

~That's it for case phase 1, tune in for more later!~

 

[July]

Felipe and you.

Why did July break claim order?

I was following Swiss' order of "claim" which came with no claim order.

Vote: July

Reasons I realized last night/this morning, case will come up later, as well as really reading what's been going on toDay. Mobile at school so...

I'm skeptical that your reasons just hit you like an epiphany. Are you saying the reason hit you on a reread, or that you thought of reasons and those provoked a reread and case?

This is July's first post. I honestly expect nothing less from July than a wall to kick this game off... But rereading this makes me a bit uneasy. Whether her points on me are justified or not, the fact remains that that's her main focus. At this point of the game there had been plenty of content filled posts to look up and comment on, 300 to be exact. It's just off to me that she went so HAM on us for what, in my opinion, is some menial reasoning. But that may be pushing it.

I fail to see what is wrong with the bolded. I came into the game with a fresh perspective and saw that you were flying under the radar despite the fact that when I read it was pretty obvious that you barely gave any content/reads in the span of those 300 posts. AND at the time all the other active players except DH were legit and seemed townie at the time.

Oh, and wrt the answer to Ryker's L-1 question... that's really lame. I mean, why even answer that way if not to seem as townie as one can by giving the obvious answer?

Well that's simply a matter of opinion.

What's not pushing it is the very first line in this post. She goes on to talk about NL and Dietz's interaction and calls em both town on it. There was plenty of Dietz talk iirc outside of that at that point, and yet that's all she says. She says that she liked both sides of the argument... and that's it... And is really vague about it too. It weirds me out that July is so willing to brush that aside, as if it doesn't mean much of anything aside from "Meh, they're both town." And then she says she read Kuzi's post and liked what he said about Dietz, and that he wasn't cool... but then totally drops it from there? No inquiries about anything from looking back, nothing really interesting, just... agreeing with it? Okay then...

Iirc you are not remembering correctly. All that had happened up to this point was No Lynch questioning JDeitz and JDeitz responding, and what I commented on was on their intent throughout the interactions instead of picking their actions apart. There were also the interactions with Swiss, but it was harder to read into Swiss' intent than No Lynch's so that wasn't something I looked into until Kuz posted almost the exact same thing I said about you about JDietz flying under the radar, but Kuzi was pushing that; this was my first post and I was going to push my top suspect who was also under the radar, and that was you.

And finally, look at her stances on Dark Horse. There's so much opportunity that she has to push em, that she has to pressure him, yet she basically takes it upon herself to make herself an agreeing party that doesn't really take action? She does a lot of "I don't like DH" but does nothing about it throughout the post. And the shift off of this later on seems mad grimy but that's to be taken up when we get there.

For not liking my walls you sure want me to cram a lot more stuff in them DH was already being pressured, and as I said DH is always suspicious to me. What helped his case more than anything for me was the fact that everyone on the wagon except you were looking townie to me, so I took their suspicions with more weight than usual.

Btw, I remember pointing out that your suspicions of DH didn't seem genuine and he was only scummy when it was convenient to you in my #1948, and your response was it wasn't worth it to build a case on him at the time because it was down to JDeitz or RR. But the point is even if DH wasn't your focus, you weren't putting any effort into substantiating your DH scum read either. I find what you are accusing me of very similar; what is the difference between your situation and mine that makes my situation scummy and yours not?

All in all BOTH of her interactions with both of the flipped scummies seems too off to really just ignore, and in two different ways... But it gets better.

This is the first point I actually agree with. I know I changed my opinion on the JDietz lynch by the end (although for utility's sake) and I switched my read on DH/Ran three times I think; c'est la vie, my reads changed and I made that clear each time something new developed I liked/didn't like.

Here she is going out of her way to express her town feel for JDietz on his bluntness on answering a question, and lists a good amount of things alluding to Dietztown, all of which I find to be really off reasoning... It's really sporadic and hard to follow, and not just because of the flip, just because it's so what the hell awkward.

My reasoning for liking his #386 and his reaction to the Swiss gambit was legit, even if it was wrong. I don't see what is "sporadic", "hard to follow", "awkward" about my post either, it's like you are just throwing vague, bad-sounding words at my reasoning hoping they stick or apply somehow.

But another thing is her insistence on getting RR noticed. Now he was and still IS scummy all of D1, but according to her DH is one of her top scum picks... but the only two people she's really getting all up in antics about is me and RR... Seems like a weird thing when DH had capability of having his lynch pull through, and him being one of your top lynchpicks amirite?

I'm sorry I continued to scumhunt and actually look for people who weren't contributing to town, that was very inappropriate of me to draw attention to RR's scumminess. I clearly should have just pushed for the DH lynch despite him not getting any scummier or townier because he HADN'T posted since the beginning of D1 while you and RR were actually there and actively acting scummier

Then... she just DROPS her scumDH read. I don't remember any more hearing of it at all through D1, and that's not to say that it's cuz he dropped off the fact of the Earth; multiple people had been commenting on it and whatnot and mentioning em as a scum pick even through his leave of absence. And no, just forgetting isn't a good reason.

You have to be ****ing kidding me. Clearly my scumhunting on other people when there was nothing new DH had done to comment on and he was wavering at or near L-1 means I no longer had any suspicions of DH. AND the bolded is proven false in the very next post you quote.

This post is SO SAFE. Seriously, it brushes on DH leaning scum, but literally says nothing about it. She even comments on Dabuz and Orbo a little I think... but NOTHING on DH. Just letting him chill on a nice ol' leaning scum seat and looking cute on a scumDH flip. Well, nah, I ain't digging it homie. And plus the whole idea that she'd rather lynch RR (our doc/vig) over Dietz (confirmed scum and an easy person to position a town read on thanks to NL and Kuz).

Orbo and Dabuz were at the null region of the chart, because they were null. DH was leaning scum because he hadn't done anything new to make him scummier or townier so he stayed where he was. I find it funny that in your last point you were defending that people were making reasons for him as scum even in his absence, and you encourage that! Clearly, I should have bull****ted reasoning for which to make DH oh so scummy so that he could be right up there with you and RR so my reads would flow nicely rather than posting my actual reads.

Also, please, explain to me wtf this bolded is. You blaming me for pushing RR because he is the doc/vig...which we didn't know until D2...so you are retroactively applying information and blaming me for not knowing better? Is that correct? And you are a filthy liar for saying Deitz was "confirmed scum"; Swiss and Ryker had damn strong reads on him, but he was not confirmed scum...unless you retroactively apply the knowledge of JDietz's scum flip.

The trend with subtly but openly fighting against Dietz' lynch continues. Her tone regarding the Dietz lynch is almost like trying to politely get people off of the lynch... It just doesn't seem real, where Kuz and NL were so openly against the lynch and obviously fighting to not lynch their town read, she was just being kinda wishy washy about it. The way she's defending is so off to me... Like, it's definite, but it's not affirmative. I don't see any effort, I guess is the best way to put it.

I politely disagree. My effort only dissipated after the JDeitz scum flip and RR claim ****ed up all my reads.


Anyways, this was an amusing although frustration case. Some of the things you say are just downright lies, and the retroactively applying information thing (if that's not what you are doing, then explain whats happening there because that's what it seems like to me) is not only stupid but obviously reaching. Other points were counter-intuitive to me; like you thought I shouldn't be pointing out scummy behavior or admitting my reads have changed, rather I should be focusing all my attention on getting an inactive scum lean lynched.

Either way, your case on me is just an attempt to divert your lynch anyways, so I expected as much, but damn...I didn't expect so many bad and reachy points Gorf.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Man, that's a lot harsher than I generally think of July.

Swiss, just checking, but you have a good reason for July obvtown, right?

 

[Swiss]

I LIKE this new July.

Ryker, apart from my overwhelming arrogance, no. Looking at the case and countercase July shredded Gord's apart, but it doesnt give me many major tells. Funny read though. If you had to lynch off this exchange, who and why? Some of Js posts I took as townie, its only solo gord that keeps dropping scumtells. First paragraph of gord case is a lynchable offense. Im being told left right and centre that gord is good now, ive been away from dgames so cant comment. Is this ignorant town? Because those tells are ROOKIE.


Gord, is July a certain scum read?

 

[Swiss]

I'll not make another mistake like I did with Xonar, even if I did replace. Never underestimate. July is smart and she could be scum. I need your reads.

Give me time.

 

[Swiss]

No player fits into the scumteam we have. Everyone just let us two lead away....and as a third scum that simply means letting us lynch their allies. Noone took any action of any kind apart from July iirc. As much as I think him useless what possible benefit would scum gord have from letting his team be lynched and not even try to set himself up as town? He claimed vt, didn't do anything to refute the hate against him and has consistently made the same scumtells. Wtf scum would do that? If that WAS a gambit hed need us both alive to fall for it, yet we know you were shot last night.

 

[Swiss]

The more I look at it the less I believe Gord could actually be scum. His posts are scummy, anti-town and lynch worthy - but he is experienced, he would be in this game with no direction, no plan, no gambits, no safety net. It's simply not feasible.

July on the other hand just made a power play, which will help her secure late game lynches. She's been laying in wait and only come out of the woodwork to secure a lynch she wants. Plus she had an easy case to rip open.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Dabuz and Felipe?

 

[Swiss]

You want my opinion on them, or you are suggesting we lynch them?

 

[Dabuz]

Dabuz and Felipe?

Sorry, I've been pretty quiet toDay because im fine with W/E town wants to do, since at this point it looks like Swiss/ Ryker have figured this game out.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Okay, Swiss, I see your analysis, my turn. Bear with me because I'm stuck walking two blocks to steal Internet with an iPod, so I can't feasibly reread till Friday.

Looking at JUST that, I wouldn't lynch. In a vacuum that includes the current votecount, Gorf comes out worse because the whole thing is OMGUS and he's on the verge of being lynched and HAS to make a play, but your analysis of his motivation seems to hold.

The key to that slot lies in Day 1 where I currently can't look. This is from memory.

Iirc, Gorf and J differed reads on Ditz and they crutched that for a significant time. Eventually, they sided with us against the proposed scummate. Dangerous position for scum to take, but not unfeasible. They align themselves with powerful allies who are currently at odds with the other two strongest players. That's perfectly fine, except, WHAT THE HELL DO THEY GET OUT OF NKILLING KUZ?

Seriously, they'd set him up at odds with us. Double check how Bleck was treated by Kuz and how he treated the DH day one wagon. That's what will solidify a read on him.

July? I dunno anything about her. I never bother reading July because her posts are long. I just lynch her on PoE at late game. Been sheeping you, will probably continue to do so.

Don't really think Rockin is scum. Orbo's fine too.

Felipe has done nothing to tell me he's not scum and that's the main thing. He will drop scumtells either way.

Dabuz is so scummy and the do nothing attitude is a far cry from Dabuz in any game Ive ever seen. But he's also cop cleared.

RR is possibly Indy, not at all mafia.

 

[Swiss]

Iirc, Gorf and J differed reads on Ditz and they crutched that for a significant time. Eventually, they sided with us against the proposed scummate. Dangerous position for scum to take, but not unfeasible. They align themselves with powerful allies who are currently at odds with the other two strongest players. That's perfectly fine, except, WHAT THE HELL DO THEY GET OUT OF NKILLING KUZ?

Seriously, they'd set him up at odds with us. Double check how Bleck was treated by Kuz and how he treated the DH day one wagon. That's what will solidify a read on him.

Mmm will re-read the stated.

I keep coming back to the Kuz NK in my head - there was no standard scum motivation for killing him (strong defender of Dietz, on our scumdars) - either they wanted us to have thread power or were afraid of Kuz - and that could only be a play by July or J.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You want my opinion on them, or you are suggesting we lynch them?

Opinions of them, I'm okish with both but not to where I would defend them from a lynch.

 

[Swiss]

Felipe is utterly useless though likely town. I forget any and all reasoning I had for this - will check him tonight (eta 4/5 hrs)

Dabiz is grimy but mechanics work in his favour.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Mmm will re-read the stated.

I keep coming back to the Kuz NK in my head - there was no standard scum motivation for killing him (strong defender of Dietz, on our scumdars) - either they wanted us to have thread power or were afraid of Kuz - and that could only be a play by July or J.

Keep in mind that DH didn't have his fate sealed at that point, so they did have a mate. Could've easily been Dabunz or Felipe freaking out because they were on Kuz's scum list and otherwise coasting by just fine (god what abysmal scum teams those would make). I know that Kuz and NL pushed Dabunz, did they push Felipe? How about Bleck and July? Could the threat of Kuz being copped scare them into action?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Keep on mind that, while being forced to find a really weird read, we're stupid far ahead and have room for error so long as we tell town to sit down and shut up after we leave so they don't get manipulated into something stupid.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

@July's response:

Skimmed it, I will respond once I'm totally done with the case.

I LIKE this new July.

Ryker, apart from my overwhelming arrogance, no. Looking at the case and countercase July shredded Gord's apart, but it doesnt give me many major tells. Funny read though. If you had to lynch off this exchange, who and why? Some of Js posts I took as townie, its only solo gord that keeps dropping scumtells. First paragraph of gord case is a lynchable offense. Im being told left right and centre that gord is good now, ive been away from dgames so cant comment. Is this ignorant town? Because those tells are ROOKIE.


Gord, is July a certain scum read?

Yes.

 

[Swiss]

Could we lynch her, and cop you toNight?

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

If need be, sure.

 

[Swiss]

Could we lynch her, and vig you toNight?

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Likewise, if need be, sure.

 

[Swiss]

Cool, let's lynch Gord and vig July.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

So our definite town read is gonna have to be Rockin leaving Felipe and Dabunz followed by Ruy.

 

[Rockin]

Bleh, sorry for being silent. I just...don't know what to currently say atm that would really benefit town lol

 

[Swiss]

Give me your full read list inclusing any and all reasoning. I don't care how superficial you think it is.

Have it ready & posted within 14 hours.

 

[Orboknown]

Felipe is utterly useless though likely town. I forget any and all reasoning I had for this - will check him tonight (eta 4/5 hrs)

Please explain this swiss, felipe could just be coasting scum.

 

[Swiss]

I said he was useless but likely town. Not that he was useless and as such town.

I will, as stated, reread him and tell you my solid stance. I may post reasoning.

 

[Orboknown]

Reasoning would be nice but im not expecting it.
hell, ill reread from page 25~ on within a couple days.

 

[Dabuz]

I thought the Kuz kill was more likely a way to kill someone without many tracks to follow. IIRC he was pretty inactive, and from my experience playing with him in Majora's mask mafia, he was a strong player.

Also, I think July scum is more likely than BM scum. Despite my awful play and an overall town dislike of me due to that, BM defended me (Well, half of his hydra did) and didn't state I was scum on D1. From a scum PoV, it isn't smart to put yourself in a position against most of town. BM was pushing on DH EARLY D1, and then switched over to Jdietz relatively early. The very early and strong push on DH early D1 seems odd for scum, I understand there is distancing, but BM's interactions with/ about DH didn't feel like distancing. Attacking two scum-buddies in one day is poor play because it leaves obvious connections.

July's 302 is very suspicious now that we know DH's and Jdietz's alignments. It is a VERY long post (>.>) with quotes in it, so I won't requote it. Basically, it looks like a really desperate way to get attention off of DH (who has 4 votes when July posted that). It is an attack on BM, who is on the DH wagon. 302 is July's first post of the game. July in general has been under the radar this whole game by posting, but not doing much that is substantial or relevant to the current topics, sounds like something scum would do. (I would know because it is how I played in Ragnarok...although I was more aggressive)

Also, I agree with Swiss that Felipe is likely town.

 

[Swiss]

Dabuz could the converse not apply to BM that he pushed two scum but never put them himself in a lynch situation - free town points. The July point is much more relevant as defending two buddies is final.

If July is scum, who is indie? Could gord be indie? Why is your play not indicative of indie play?

 

[Dabuz]

I thought of that as well, but decided it to be unlikely. It's not a good exchange to push two scum buddies two days straight for some town points. Part of it being the risk of PRs, which can secure a scum TOO easily. Another problem is that he weakens the scum faction A LOT. Unless it is actually 2 scum left and no indy (super unlikely), BM has put himself in a horrible position. I assume BM is pretty smart and wouldn't hurt himself that much.

Now that you asked me about Indy, I have to reconsider Felipe. He has been the most detached this game. I don't remember him playing with an objective so to speak. It has been easy to forget about him. He hasn't been concerned about anything either, which goes back to the detachment, he doesn't seem to care about this game. If not him, then RR indy, he likes to gambit a lot and claiming his PRs is a risky gambit with lots of payoff. No one else has done anything which gives me reason to guess indy aside from PoE.

 

[Dabuz]

Side note about July, she wasn't voting Jdietz at the end of D1, but instead voting RR. I don't feel like reading anymore though in order to see if that is important :/

 

[Rockin]

Black Mange (Gord) - Suspicious/Lynchable

I felt a bit uneasy with him/them on D1 mainly cause, as July described, they were in the shadows. They contributed, but it was light. They told their suspicions, but never truly persue it. While I was put off by it, I decided to not really persue them myself and just see how they respond as the days go by.

With Gord by himself, I feel he's no longer hiding in the shadows, but there's nothing so as to tell me that he's town. I feel that, if J was town, he'd be more out in the open and pressure people he truly felt he was scummy/suspicious. Being that Gord claimed Vanilla townie, it doesn't mesh well with J's play (the same goes for Gord, but I'm kinda meh on how he normally plays.

Dabuz/Orbo - Anti-town

I didn't like them D1 mainly cause they didn't contribute as much. D2 I was content cause they gotten slightly better (Dabuz yes, Orbo....eh). Now that we're on D3, I wouldn't mind Orbo lynched. His posts have been really little...>>

I also find it weird Orbo didn't question Swiss on that 'I saw you go to person A' scenario. I can't help but feel town would heavily question them on that and just put a vote down, but then that's just me.

July - Suspicious/slightly town

She has provided content for the game, as well as tell people her reads. Nothing with what she says really points to me as scum. My main beef is her motives/viewpoints.

on D1, she felt that Bleck was suspicious and Red Ryu should be lynched, but I didn't felt much effort so as to get either of them pressured/lynched (Granted, our main focus at the time was Jdietz). on D2, as much as I understood and remember that her reads were totally re-arranged, I don't think I remember her changing her views on Bleck, and if she didn't, I didn't see much force/presuadsion to get Bleck/gord lynched. Did she had anyone else that she wanted to lynch? I can't remember. I do remember that she was going to follow Swiss' vote.

I suggest that she be copped rather then lynched.

Swiss/Ryker - Town

I dislike his stupid gambits, but he's been pretty townie. Same goes for Ryker.

Felipe - Null/lynchable

He's been sheeping on one wagon after another. No motives or anything like that. From the sounds of others, he'd play more seriously if he was Mafia. I still think a lynch on him would be good (before Oro would be best).


Red Ryu - ....null?

Okay. Uh.....

The ONLY reason I don't want him lynched is cause his claim is valid (to me, anyway). As a player, I don't see any sort of town motives on there, nor do I see any Mafia motives. All I see is insults left and right whenever he's accused of something. I'm pretty eh with him...

I feel that the people that claimed are lieing. Remember, Red Ryu got silenced on D1, and I have yet to hear anyone claim as such. Therefore, the last Mafia could be either Mafia or indie (if we even have one. I kinda doubt it).

 

[July]

Man, that's a lot harsher than I generally think of July.

I can get feisty sometimes.

Could we lynch her, and cop you toNight?

Could we lynch her, and vig you toNight?

I'm alright with being lynched/vigged/copped as long as Gord goes down with me.

July's 302 is very suspicious now that we know DH's and Jdietz's alignments. It is a VERY long post (>.>) with quotes in it, so I won't requote it. Basically, it looks like a really desperate way to get attention off of DH (who has 4 votes when July posted that). It is an attack on BM, who is on the DH wagon. 302 is July's first post of the game. July in general has been under the radar this whole game by posting, but not doing much that is substantial or relevant to the current topics, sounds like something scum would do. (I would know because it is how I played in Ragnarok...although I was more aggressive)

Addressed some of this in response to Gord, but I liked everyone on the DH wagon except for Bleck Mang, as I found their hop on the wagon weakly substantiated and disingenuous. At post #302 I wasn't thinking let's get a lynch though, I was thinking about finding scum reads, especially those from those players who were flying under the radar. Rest of this post is alright though, even if I don't agree. Much less rage-inducing that Gord's post.

@Gord: Just because one/both of us is going to die toDay doesn't mean you get out of posting the rest of your case on me or responding to my responses.

 

[Swiss]

Well isn't this a conundrum.