sHell's Wario Guide*UPDATED*AUG17 More Matchup changes

[DMG]

6-4 for Wario is my opinion as well.

Somewhere, someone said something about ROB getting an Usmash after a grab release on Wario. Can anyone confirm this? This might be enough to tip it slightly in ROB's favor, unless Blue sHell already weighed that in the matchup.

 

[PhantomX]

If ROB gets a free upsmash on Wario it would definitely be in his favor. One of the biggest things going for Wario in the matchup is how difficult it is for ROB to kill him.

 

[DMG]

Well I cannot remember where I saw the post, but someone said ROB gets a free Usmash after a grab release.

Just tested it and it looks false. ROB holds him and Wario's feet are still on the ground.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I thought it had nothing to do with where Wario's feet are. If anything, I'm sure you could get an angled F-Smash at the least, but a U-Smash wouldn't really be reaching, either.

 

[DMG]

I thought it had nothing to do with where Wario's feet are. If anything, I'm sure you could get an angled F-Smash at the least, but a U-Smash wouldn't really be reaching, either.

Grab release crap against Wario deals with whether or not his feet are touching the ground while he is being held by the grabber. There's also a different animation Wario goes through if his feet dangle, and that is the tell tale sign of whether or not they can force you to release into the air.

ROB can't force you to jump, even if he snags you during a jump or in the air.

 

[DMG]

Sorry about double posting, but it's been a few days now and I think we need to go over some of Wario's matchups that are heavily disagreed on:

Wario vs Ike: That matchup is listed as 6 : 4 Advantage Wario on the Wario boards. On the Ike boards, it is listed as 5.5 : 4.5 Advantage Ike.

Wario vs Shiek: That matchup is listed as 6 : 4 Advantage Wario on the Wario boards. On the Shiek boards, it is listed as 80 : 20 Advantage Shiek.

Wario vs Zelda: That matchup is listed as 5 : 5 on the Wario boards. On the Zelda boards (it's actually on the Shiek boards, they have both characters listed for matchups) it is listed as 70: 30 Advantage Zelda.


Anyone have an idea as to why those matchups are slanted so far in the other characters favor on the other boards? Bias?

 

[Ace55]

I think we need to go over some of Wario's matchups that are heavily disagreed on:

Wario vs Ike: That matchup is listed as 6 : 4 Advantage Wario on the Wario boards. On the Ike boards, it is listed as 5.5 : 4.5 Advantage Ike.

Wario vs Shiek: That matchup is listed as 6 : 4 Advantage Wario on the Wario boards. On the Shiek boards, it is listed as 80 : 20 Advantage Shiek.

Wario vs Zelda: That matchup is listed as 5 : 5 on the Wario boards. On the Zelda boards (it's actually on the Shiek boards, they have both characters listed for matchups) it is listed as 70: 30 Advantage Zelda.


Anyone have an idea as to why those matchups are slanted so far in the other characters favor on the other boards? Bias?

I would say that without the grab release stuff the matchup would be 6:4. The grab release gives Ike an easier finisher and can possibly cost an entire stock. I think it's kinda hard to tell at this point (for me at least) because I've never seen an Ike vs Wario where the Ike goes for lots of grabs.
BleusHell changed the marth matchup from 5:5 (IIRC) to 3:7 after the grab release stuff, and Ike has that plus the infinite. As long as Ike doesn't have a much harder time grabbing Wario than Marth, the matchup could actually be called in his favor.

I know that Sheik has some pretty powerful grab release stuff on Wario but I can't imagine the matchup being that onesided (worse than Dedede???). Perhaps 4:6 but I don't think it will get much worse than that. Perhaps the Sheik board overestimate the grab release mojo (when you're not playing on FD).

I'm getting sick of saying this but grab release to death kick seems like an great way to kill Wario at low percent. Then she has the infinite, and Wario already had trouble with her before all this was known. Probably 35-65 at best.

But hey, at least we're still 8th on the tier list.

 

[DMG]

What can Ike finish with after a grab release? Certainly not his tilts, that's been tested. Everything else seems too slow to come out. Maybe Fair? Idk. The infinite is only if you have your DJ wasted, and I'm starting to think you can just airdodge the grab if DJ would have stopped it in the first place (maybe, maybe not).

I can maybe understand the Shiek one, but I've never seen a real match where a Wario gets ***** by the grab release from Shiek. That, and if you take the grab release away with platforms or a CP stage, then you have the advantage.

Zelda was kinda meh, I mean she was pretty even I guess before the grab release to lightning kick, but like Shiek I have yet to see a real match where a Wario just gets puts down easily to this. It may influence the matchup, but not to 3:7, maybe 4:6 on FD, and 5:5 on a stage with platforms.

 

[Ace55]

I didn't know Ike couldn't really follow up his releases (I thought utilt worked), I don't think Fair would work so that would mean the best thing he can is probably Upb which isn't that bad. I also forgot that his infinite only works if you can't double jump, which makes it super situational. Ike would probably stay around 6:4 then.

I've seen one set of Ankoku against a Wario where he does go in for a lot of grabs to footstool to needle, to forced standup to grab release, etc. And finishes with grabrelease to upsmash. It seemed pretty effective (and it wasn't even on FD).

Zelda's infinite is he same as Ike's so I exagurated that part. But just plain grab release to death kick still stands, and I think that could sway the matchup in her favor.

 

[DMG]

Well then Zelda to 4:6 seems fair, Wario to 6:4 against Ike still seems rational, (maybe 5.5 : 4.5 Wario) and Idk about Shiek. I'll have to wait for Blue sHell or someone else to describe that one to me, I've not played a serious Shiek yet so I may be missing out on something.

 

[Ace55]

A matchup that I'm pretty experienced with is the Lucario Wario matchup, which is now 6-4.

This matchup is probably the main reason I changed my view about building damage with kill moves (most specifically Fsmash and upair). Lucario has enormous problems dealing with Wario when it's at low percent, his damage output is terrible and he just can't kill you.
One's you get his percent high enough for you too directly kill it, actually landing a kill move can be quite troublesome in my experience. Lucario has little ending lag on his moves, has a great spotdodge, and an incredibly fast uptilt which hits all around him. This makes getting Fmash in quite a pain. And beating his dair with your uair isn't exactly easy either, they seem to be comparible in range, but the stop of his vertical momentum and two hits usually makes it easier for him to hit you with it than the other way around.
One of the easier ways to kill him is forcing him to land on stage with his recovery and abusing the landing lag with an upair. But because of his floatiness and giant hitboxes when he's in danger actually getting him low enough so he has to upb isn't easy either. So killing Lucario = hard in my experience.
So let's say it's last stock you've got 50% and the Lucario 115%. The Lucario I face will spend most of his time charging giant auraspheres and making sure you don't get close enough for a fsmash. You try to aproach, eat a few uptilts, get chased in the air by something that has giant, pretty fast hitboxes and suddenly it's 90% vs 122 (you got a fair in while disrupting him) and you still don't have anyway of sollidly aproaching him. Meanwhile he can space fsmashes and throw auraspheres at you pretty safely, uptilting you away when you get too close.
IMO the matchup changes pretty much in Lucario favor when his percent goes up, mostly because Wario has only one ranged attack to counter all of Lucario's range, and Ftilt is indeed a nice kill move in this matchup, because you can at least stay out of the range of his really fast attacks. Because Lucario isn't as easily gimped as we would like, you're almost always going to face a buffed up Lucario three times in a match, at which point the advantage is his (although of course he has to avoid getting killed). I don't feel Wario has enough of a advantage when Lucario is weak compared to Lucario's advantage (IMO) when he's buffed to make the matchup 6:4. I would say it's pretty much 5:5 or maybe 55:45.

I wonder if Phantom totally disagrees with me on this subject. Would be interesting to hear what he thinks about it, seeing that his double partner is a Lucario.

Although I'm sure dr mario guy has faced a couple of Lucario's in tournies or friendlies, probably better than the one I play.

 

[Popertop]

I second Lucario, so I know both characters pretty well.

That matchup is pretty even.

If you build your damage fast and kill him with Uair before he hits 100 ( or right after he hits it ) then you won't have many problems, but most Lucarios (the good ones anyway) are really good at Di'ing and living a long time.

Farts **** his Extreme Speed.

 

[PhantomX]

Luc vs. Wario is quite even.

I'll go more into detail when I have more time (just got back from a big trip, doing hw and catching up and shiz).

What Popertop said is key though. Fart owns Luc offstage like nothing else.

 

[deepseadiva]

So the Peaches think Wario is easy. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178193&page=37

 

[PhantomX]

K, posted... let's see what they think.

 

[DMG]

It's 50 : 50 even with the grab release, picking a stage that moves or has platforms would probably make it a Small advantage for Wario on the basis that grab release would be severely limited.

 

[PhantomX]

Lol, I'll never get why people will ask for input if they're going to completely disregard it. I love how NikoK also takes the word of a NESS main as final.

 

[DMG]

He didn't really go in depth as to why Wario supposedly can't hit Peach until she messes up, but oh well there's not much to gain from discussing it to a further point. The matchup numbers listed online won't affect the true matchup numbers in game play

 

[Ace55]

Lol, I'll never get why people will ask for input if they're going to completely disregard it. I love how NikoK also takes the word of a NESS main as final.

Yeah, tell me about it. You and dmg wrote a sh*tworth of info in that thread, and they either don't respond at all or just totally bypass the argument. Why the hell ask other peoples oppinions then?

 

[neon..?]

thanks it helped.

 

[deepseadiva]

Sometimes... ugh. The Peach community gets assy.

I apologize for the ignorant douchieness on our part, but I for one would personally like to thank you Warios (again) for helping us out a bit. Please don't be to offended to continue posting.

I was also wondering if I could set up a few online matches against anyone of you? I don't have much, if any experiences, against Wario - and I'm a pretty decent Peach. I wanna see firsthand how much of a 60% advantage I have.

 

[DMG]

Sometimes... ugh. The Peach community gets assy.

I apologize for the ignorant douchieness on our part, but I for one would personally like to thank you Warios (again) for helping us out a bit. Please don't be to offended to continue posting.

I was also wondering if I could set up a few online matches against anyone of you? I don't have much, if any experiences, against Wario - and I'm a pretty decent Peach. I wanna see firsthand how much of a 60% advantage I have.

It's cool, I didn't have a problem posting in there until Niko just kinda took what Hova said to heart and wanted that discussion done without a real explanation. But it's cool, matchups online don't mean a thing compared to what the game says :D

 

[Ryusuta]

I'm still not getting the half Waft vs. full Waft thing.

On the one hand, I see stuff like half Waft only KOing Mario at 187% and being useless (at 56 seconds on the chart, specifically), and on the other hand I keep hearing how half Waft is WAY more useful than full Waft and that it's his strongest KO move. Could someone clarify this for me?

 

[3GOD]

I'm still not getting the half Waft vs. full Waft thing.

On the one hand, I see stuff like half Waft only KOing Mario at 187% and being useless (at 56 seconds on the chart, specifically), and on the other hand I keep hearing how half Waft is WAY more useful than full Waft and that it's his strongest KO move. Could someone clarify this for me?

The whole point of the 0:56 seconds (useless) and 0:58 seconds (good) on the chart is to indicate that it's right around 0:57 seconds that the "half Waft" gets it's power.

It's a bit of a misnomer since a true half Waft would be weak. When people write "half Waft," they generally mean using the Waft sometime between 0:57 seconds and ~1:50 seconds of charge. It is during this window that the Waft has the most knockback, with the power increasing as the time approaches 1:50 of charge. Notice that the Waft KOs Mario at 52% just before it is fully charged but loses its knockback power once it is fully charged.

 

[He's A Pirate.]

Excellent guide, very informative. My (our) beloved Wario clicked immediately with me from my first match with him, seems made for my aggressive and aerial style of play. Have been working on improving with him as much as possible since then, hopefully I'll not bring too much shame to him.

Also, seemed as good a place as any for my first post, so greetings, all.

 

[Ace55]

Well, first Brawl tourny tomorrow. It's in the north side of Amsterdam, which is where I live, so that's convenient. I might not go 100% Wario, and could throw Pokemon Trainer, Wolf, Link or Jigglypuff (maybe even Ganon) in there if I feel I can. But I'm sure Wario will be the better choice most of the time. However if I somehow come across my friends Lucario, I will simply **** him with Wolf. I don't know what the matchup is supposed to be but me with the shine vs his Lucario means ****. Too bad my new wolf love also makes me fart when I face a projectile with Wario, but that's just me being stupid.
I doubt I'll win with a good number of old Melee pro's coming, but it'll be interesting.

I fear for the doubles, as me a my team partner havn't had any practise in months.

 

[DMG]

Well, first Brawl tourny tomorrow. It's in the north side of Amsterdam, which is where I live, so that's convenient. I might not go 100% Wario, and could throw Pokemon Trainer, Wolf, Link or Jigglypuff (maybe even Ganon) in there if I feel I can. But I'm sure Wario will be the better choice most of the time. However if I somehow come across my friends Lucario, I will simply **** him with Wolf. I don't know what the matchup is supposed to be but me with the shine vs his Lucario means ****. Too bad my new wolf love also makes me fart when I face a projectile with Wario, but that's just me being stupid.
I doubt I'll win with a good number of old Melee pro's coming, but it'll be interesting.

I fear for the doubles, as me a my team partner havn't had any practise in months.

U get vids up for me to look at :D Singles preferably.

 

[PhantomX]

DMG, we need vids of our epic double Warioness when it happens.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Speaking of doubles vids, some were recorded of Skazyrik and myself Vs. Meep and TC1 from my last tourney. The should be on YouTube soon.

 

[Ace55]

U get vids up for me to look at :D Singles preferably.

For the love of god no, I just came back from it. If my poule matches were recorded you could give advise like: don't bite in the wrong direction, don't gimp yourself on Frigate and the always popular: when you decide to go under a stage don't screw it up (although that was around noon when we were still playing friendlies).

My first match was against Coen, a old Melee pro who hardly play's Brawl at all (he got number one in the poule though). Uh yeah, he played G&W first match and I believe he comfortably one stocked me. So I dicide hey, let's counterpick Frigate, so he picks ROB. Long story short, Frigate isn't my cup of tea yet and I got two stocked

Then there was this second guy (the name eludes me right now), using Toon Link and Falco as far as I could see. Don't remember with how much his Falco beat me the first match but it was enough. I thought about my counterpick, and not really wanting to go to Frigate again I came up with Battlefield, just because I like it and it doesn't seem like the best stage for Falco. He picks Toon Link.
After a fierce battle (I must have dodged hundreds of projectiles today, thank god it's Wario) in which I'm sure I had way to much percent on my last stock I manage to beat him. He goes back to Falco and counterpicks Final D, I stick with Wario, because well, all my others would have done worse at that moment. Thankfully for me during his second stock he makes the classic side B over the edge SD giving me the victory (even though he came close after a gimp on my second stock) after edgehogging his side B on his last life.

Third match was against an asian guy who only used MK, he ripped me apart percentage wise but with me surviving forever I actually made the first match 200% vs 96% last stock before he finally killed me. First match was on Final D, and I really didn't know what to pick against a MK, so I went back to FD, I lost there so I could. Long battle, a lot of faking out by me because aproaching him was crazy. In the end I somehow won (seriously I was suprised seeing as how much swift sword strokes I was taking).
Then he goes Frigate Orpheon on me and ofcourse I **** up and kill myself on my second stock, giving him a thee to one lead. I managed to actually take it too 1-1 but not much further.

Fourth match against 'mew2king', seriously it was a guy who looked similar to M2K and used MK and Dedede. Too be honest his MK was toast, I'm pretty sure I two stocked him (I was finally getting some of my mojo back) but when he chose Dedede didn't know what to do. The chaingrabs he was doing looked spot on, and I was afraid he was aware of the release mumbojumbo so I picked..........Jigglypuff, yes Jigglypuff. I though hey, if I can outplay him with Wario then why not with Jiggs, I just didn't want to get severly punished after every grab. The good news is that he hardly grabbed me, the bad news is that I messed up like 4 rest attempts and he ended up killing me with Fsmash three times. I mean he's a freaking ginormous pinguin yet I still managed to only get one rest on him, which sadly enough wasn't even lethal. 5 Minute three stock match, ouch.
Now what was I gonna do? Pick Wario knowing that it's a bad matchup that I am unfamiliar with or go with Pokemon Trainer, Squirtle being one of my favorites and also immume to his chaingrab. I go with Wario because my game was bad enough as it was and facing him with Ivisaur would probably mean easy gimp for the pingiun.
He didn't use grab release hits, but it didn't really matter. 90% Of the match was me jumping over his waddle doos/dees and gordo's (he threw like three but thanfully none of them hit me) and aproaching with double jump dair bombs. You should always make sure your dairs bombs autocancel, as I am well aware of. But not today, today we (I) stick our heads in the ground and get chaingrabbed all over the place. I farted him out of his up B, I avoided ten thousand waddlers, but I lost. He KO'd me the second time while he was at two stck high damage. I knocked him off, he came falling near the ledge, using a certain B move. You can imagine the rest.

Last match was vs a Lucario named Azeez, at least a matchup that I knew quite well. For some idiotic idea I decided that this was a great moment to pull out my Wolf, seeing how well it does against my friend's Lucario. This turned out to be a very bad idea, and I'm pretty sure I didn't kill him more than once.
So wisely I go back to Wario and seeing as this guy has has been using only Lucario as far as I see I decide to try Frigat Orpheon again. Why do I keep doing these stupid things, I was finally doing OK on nice neutral stages against matchups that I know, yet I pick a level where Lucario can wallcling and that has a tendency of screwing myself over. I lost my first life, f*cked up on my second life and faced a one to three stock situation once again. Once again I come back to one-one (and this guy made it quite far in the tournament) but finally I died to his annoyingly well spaced F-smash edgeguarding. 2-0 again.

I got four points out of a max of 10, I believe I ended up 4th in the poule (behind Coen Azeez & 'm2k') but only the first two go on.

The finals did get recorded, so I might be able to link you to those in a while. But as for any tournament matches from me, they will have to wait, for the sake of us all. The idea was to hold this every month I believe, so chances should be numerous.

All in all, it was a great day, good experience, and I did manage to kick some *ss in friendlies (although the scedule was kinda tight), which made me mad that I kept f*cking up before. Playing with friends or online is such a huge difference with playing with new people in a competetive setting, it takes some getting used to. It still was a sh*tload of fun though.

Also, you can escape the Falco chainthrow? I was thinking about what PhantomX said about DI'ng away and jumping when it happened but unless I was over say 17% (and not too much move decay) I could not escape. Even though I laughed at it, and didn't get killed afterwards (thank god) it was kinda painful.

Edit: I also think the dutch metagame is catching up fast. I was quite impressed at the level of skill and knowledge (and spamming) displayed at the first large tournament (I'm calling 52 large, could have been more but there wasn't enough space).

 

[Niko_K]

Lol, I'll never get why people will ask for input if they're going to completely disregard it. I love how NikoK also takes the word of a NESS main as final.

Which ness main? What word from a ness main? All I did was review the match-up based on my experience and posted in the thread....Why am I even being mentioned?!

He didn't really go in depth as to why Wario supposedly can't hit Peach until she messes up, but oh well there's not much to gain from discussing it to a further point. The matchup numbers listed online won't affect the true matchup numbers in game play

I never said wario can't hit peach, I just personally find the match up easy

Yeah, tell me about it. You and dmg wrote a sh*tworth of info in that thread, and they either don't respond at all or just totally bypass the argument. Why the hell ask other peoples oppinions then?

We never asked for the wario mainers to come into the thread in the first place. You guys just disagreed with your match-up review and started shoving situations down our throats.

As if I don't play a good Wario, JL is amazing...

 

[DMG]

Which ness main? What word from a ness main? All I did was review the match-up based on my experience and posted in the thread....Why am I even being mentioned?!

I never said wario can't hit peach, I just personally find the match up easy

We never asked for the wario mainers to come into the thread in the first place. You guys just disagreed with your match-up review and started shoving situations down our throats.

As if I don't play a good Wario, JL is amazing...

We were talking about Hova, the guy who had the Ness icon, said that Wario can't hit Peach, and etc. He didn't tell anyone why he felt that way.

 

[MorphedChaos]

I'd say Wario has an upper hand on Ness easily, since you can bike through his PK fire spam, which is what I've had the hardest time avoiding on D3.

 

[Ace55]

We never asked for the wario mainers to come into the thread in the first place. You guys just disagreed with your match-up review and started shoving situations down our throats.

As if I don't play a good Wario, JL is amazing...

Oh sh*t Niko_K found us.

I for one didn't contibute jack to the matchup because that's what I know about it.

I commented something like: guys when the best Wario in texas comes to help you with the matchup you don't just dismiss him by saying: I think you only play scrub Peaches.

The response to that was shut your mouth, very sensible indeed. I'm pretty sure all those comments didn't come from you though. But one of the Peach mains kinda has a big head.

 

[Ace55]

Well another touney tomorrow, last time I think I ended up 30ish so I'm bound to place higher this time (seeing as there are only 26 entrants). I'm gonna try to stick with Wario in this one, because he is just so much more reliable than my secondaries when the pressure's on.

 

[PhantomX]

Well another touney tomorrow, last time I think I ended up 30ish so I'm bound to place higher this time (seeing as there are only 26 entrants). I'm gonna try to stick with Wario in this one, because he is just so much more reliable than my secondaries when the pressure's on.

Haha, you're a silly person Ace. Of course you'll place higher when there are less places

I'm going to my first trny next week... I'm excited.

 

[Ace55]

Haha, you're a silly person Ace. Of course you'll place higher when there are less places

I'm going to my first trny next week... I'm excited.

I know, that was the point. And I ended up 9th place (with 4 others). Survived poules, had 8 points out of max 12 and had to face Aqua (one of the two guys to beat me in poules) immediatly in the bracket. Should have won my second game and perhaps my first , but didn't, lost my nerve when I had a good lead. Totally unecesary 2-0. Then I met the same MK who 2-1 me last time in tourney. And the exact same thing happened. He wins the first, I win the second on FD (with a mayor comeback) and he wins the last. I really need to step my MK game up or something.
In a friendly Gaki also demonstated quite clearly to me that a good marth will indeed adjust to my dodging and nair me. Leaving me with very few options, and a two stock.
The only other guy who beat me today was a Luigi in the last poule match. I Luigi is not 45-55 seriously. The guy was pretty good but I think that was the only game he won in poules, and he pretty much ***** me.

Also: I beat the poule leaders Dedede with 2-0. Second match on Castle Siege. Even though I spent all my time jumping from platform to platform on the second part, I'm quite proud of that.

And good luck at your upcoming tourney Phantom.

 

[Popertop]

Yeah, D3 doesn't seem as formidable as once thought.
Marth, Yoshi and Luigi seem like the harder fights now.
What to do against marth?

 

[Ace55]

This vid doesn't have much to do with me or Wario. But it was taken at the tourney and it's hilarious.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n8v3kIuArxE

 

[MorphedChaos]

Yeah, D3 doesn't seem as formidable as once thought.
Marth, Yoshi and Luigi seem like the harder fights now.
What to do against marth?

D3 or MK are very good against Marth. Maybe Snake too.