sHell's Wario Guide*UPDATED*AUG17 More Matchup changes

[Ace55]

You can shield grab his Bair btw, grab in between the hits.

Really, I thought the range of the turtle would be quite a bit longer than Wario's grab range?

 

[PhantomX]

If they don't retreat the bair (or the dair) you can shieldgrab it as long as you hold for all the hits. You can also spotdodge the last turtle hit and fsmash or whatever.

 

[Timbers]

.

You're really acting like ROB has an impenetrable defense. If I could make a diagram for this, I would show you. If Wario is approaching ROB in a diagonal manner (Above ftilt, below uair) then there's not much ROB can do except back off some with retreating fairs. All that accomplished was ROB moving closer to the ledge, and making it harder for ROB to space Wario. There is a degree where ROB must take the offensive against Wario, or he's going to get bagged on.

Wario has an airdodge, surprisingly. If he baits ROB into whiffing an fair, juggling can become very easy for Wario. The reason why this is such a problem for ROB, is because it's hard to brickwall characters with such great aerial DI, and an amazing/powerful tool for juggling (the uair)

I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this.

It really sounds like theory you're talking on more than anything, with all due respect. ROB by no means has an impenetrable defense. Overswarm is easily one of the most campy defensive ROBs, and Tink seemed to have no problem getting through this defense in their finals sets a few weeks back. Maybe take a glance at those videos sometime, dunno.

 

[Blue sHell]

Oh sweet, look at the discussion I walked in on. Ill update to the overall thoughts on matchups.


And on the whole ROB thing. Fatal is one of the beastly ROB players there is right now. And me and him are always dead even at all times. Sure, I don't deny that it is easier for him to rack on the damage on me than it is for me. But ROB has a severely hard time killing Wario if the Wario knows how to avoid nair at all costs. Seriously, once you know how to avoid NAIR at key moments he'll have to rely on killing you with fsmash, gimping, fair, bair. Sure absolutely never getting hit by nair fighting a good ROB is simply impossible. But it isn't hard to get hit by them very very sparingly. Air dodge is your best friend. Your absolute..... best friend.

Chomp will make him hesistate to spotdodge as much. Dair bombing also creates a difficulty for him to stay still too long. Don't try to punish him with anything besides grabs when he whiffs on your shield(when he fits fairs on your shield, downsmashes, bairs, nairs, basically almost everything). Trying to punish with anything else will make you get punished. Mix in jabs to throw him off every once in a while though. They are not that punishable and are fairly quick. Also if you're feeling tricky, punish with while rising dair and while your falling back down from the dair bite him. Its sexy.

Also, your ROBs should be dieing at around 100-120%. Save that forward smash. You'll want to anyway, he could punish fsmash spamming very very well. If you think your fsmash is a little weak though. Don't hesitate to grab ROB and just pummel him with grabhits to refresh your moves. Waft of course kills, goes without saying.

Upair. Lolupair. ROB above Wario is just halarious. If ROB is ever above you know that he could either nair, downair, and airdodge. Those are his only options while falling. Sure he could upb a little more or double jump, but I'm talking about him wanting to want to touch the floor sometime in the next year. Downair and Nair both have almost equal startup lag so quickly rush up and upair OR empty jump, wait for him to airdodge and then double jump and upair. ROBs should hate being above you. While he's falling you could also mix in farts instead of upair too. Seriously dangerous position for them.

While Rising Dairs and while rising fairs are extremely safe in this matchup too. And while rising dair > upair > bite is a true combo vs ROBs at lower %s. Mix it in. I'm putting up some vids today or tomorrow where I use this combo ALOT. Mixing up while rising dair and dair bombing is trickier than you think. SH Fair pecks and SH airdoge is all you got for SH approaches. Retreat fairs and ftilt owns Wario's SH. But mixing up airdodge fakeouts/go-behinds and Fair pecks actually works. Makes him hesistate on his choices when you approach. Know that if he retreat Fairs and you airdodge approach, both Wario and Rob will have 0 lag on landing so in this position its whoever reacts the fastest first. I suggest grabbing in this position(or jabs). Running up to him and shielding or running up and grabbing is another mixup.

Hope this helps. Anyone that questioned the ROB matchup should really take the time to read this.

 

[PKNintendo]

Hey Blue, what about our match?

 

[Blue sHell]

I've had no internet for while. I was about to message you saying so lol XD. I got my internet back like two days ago though so its why I could actually post from places besides work(even though I'm at work right now).

Message me your BC and AIM


EDIT:

Updated the matchups. You guys swayed me on alot of matchups. ROB I think still needs a little bit more talking over.

 

[PhantomX]

i've been wondering where you've been, man... i've missed our epic Wario dittos And mixing up rising dairs and dair bombs is not that hard :\

I have a hard time catching my opponent with the first fullhop dair when they're at low percents, but mostly b/c my partner loves his shield. I do mix in dair to upair whenever possible, though.

 

[Blue sHell]

Mix in dashing grabs or shield dashing along to your shield biting game then. Running grabs are alot faster than Bites so its the more obvious choice when going for shield lovers.

And yes. We need to ditto, seriously. Plus I want to infinite you/grab>fsmash you with my Bowser

 

[PhantomX]

lol, ****... you'll have to grab me first >: ) You can grab release fart me w/ Wario though, that will be lulz.

Also, I know about the biting, but generally I end up biting him or poking him till he's taken too much damage for the dair to upair, and it makes me sad in the pants

 

[PKNintendo]

I've had no internet for while. I was about to message you saying so lol XD. I got my internet back like two days ago though so its why I could actually post from places besides work(even though I'm at work right now).

Message me your BC and AIM


EDIT:

Updated the matchups. You guys swayed me on alot of matchups. ROB I think still needs a little bit more talking over.

I'll just PM you when Im ready.

Also, I suggest you change Zelda's. I suppose you shouldn't change it TOO MUCH, but Zelda has 2 things going for her that really messes with Wario.
1. Fair after grab release=21% always. Thats even more than Marth's DG on Lucas.
2. Infinite grab if she grabs him out of a double jump. (kinda situational, but hey things happen)

Her tilts have some average range too. Luckily, her air games is her weak point, and that is where you can **** her. (not seriously lol) Forward B can hit you when you recover, and can keep him back. The Waft CAN be reflected by neutral B so watch out.

All an all, I think Zelda has this one. (55-45 or 60-40 for Zelda) Without those the grab release I guess the matchup would be 50-50.

For Ness, 6-4 sounds right but you worded it wrong. Grab release Fsmash is a threat,but not THAT BAD. but their aerial game is pretty equal. Ness has more priority and range, and keep Wario back(aerial wise). Riding him 24/7 sounds a bit biased IMO. I mean, you can put that in for Mario ''Ride him 24/7'' Both of their ground games are equal (watch out for that grab lol) Wario can edge guard Ness, and he's heavy (harder to kill with using the bair, or backthrow)

Again, I agree with 6-4 but because of 2 things.
1. Wario edge guards Ness.
2. Wario is also quite heavy, harder to kill.
3. Aerials are slightly better, and Ness is an aerial fighter.
4. Wario can kill better on the ground.

Grab release Fsmash works with other characters too, and it's not broken.
Hell, most of the tall characters can grab release Fsmash or Upsmash Wario, but they usually are equal, or lower. (Zelda is special due to her Fair which kills early and does massive damage)

(Marth should be 4-6, but im too tired)


PS: Who is Smashbros_7 and why is he a turd?

 

[PKNintendo]

Mix in dashing grabs or shield dashing along to your shield biting game then. Running grabs are alot faster than Bites so its the more obvious choice when going for shield lovers.

And yes. We need to ditto, seriously. Plus I want to infinite you/grab>fsmash you with my Bowser

Wario can infinite Wario on walls. So if you play a ditto match, do it on Snakes level.

but seriously, grab release to waft is annoying...

 

[PhantomX]

The thing about zelda is that she's light, and easily edgeguarded, and she doesn't have impressive ground speed, so it's easy to avoid her grabs, making them less of a nonfactor. Also, when she's locked into upsmash, you can peg her w/ backairs, it's pretty easy. Waroi's uber airdodge makes avoiding din's fire cake too... though it's hella annoying as a fight, it's still pretty capable (just like ROB).

 

[PKNintendo]

The thing about zelda is that she's light, and easily edgeguarded, and she doesn't have impressive ground speed, so it's easy to avoid her grabs, making them less of a nonfactor. Also, when she's locked into upsmash, you can peg her w/ backairs, it's pretty easy. Waroi's uber airdodge makes avoiding din's fire cake too... though it's hella annoying as a fight, it's still pretty capable (just like ROB).

Can Wario DI out of the Upsmash (goes to test it)

 

[PhantomX]

Wario can DI out of any multi hit move,easier than most... though it's hard at low percents. Doesn't matter as long as you DI out before the last hit.



Also, I loved the DDD matchup relisting shell, you always make laugh like a prostitute <3

 

[3GOD]

Wario can DI out of any multi hit move,easier than most... though it's hard at low percents. Doesn't matter as long as you DI out before the last hit.

Show me how to get out of Zelda's Usmash. I've tried a lot of ways and cannot find any way to do it.

Also, to Timbers and other dudes talking about ROB...I probably have been exaggerating a little bit the difficulty of this match-up because of the way it feels. When you have to spend most of the match looking for openings all the while getting laser'd and gyro'd, it makes it very frustrating. I concur with the points about ROB not getting KO's until 150% and Wario being able to juggle well when he gets inside, but the defense of ROB is REALLY good. I will never believe this is an even match-up, but I could agree with it being 40-60 or maybe 45-55 in ROB's favor.

As to the Overswarm and Tink vids...I wonder how much Wario experience OS had prior to those matches...I still need to watch them all - I'll do that tomorrow.

Moving on to another match-up...I think Zelda is probably 45-55 in favor of Zelda.

Also, why do people really think that Yoshi is 30-70? The infinite isn't that amazing because of it's difficulty to get setup, and Yoshi has little else on Wario other than the infinite.

 

[PhantomX]

He has it listed as that, but only because of the infinite. It's probably the easiest and most effective one to do because he can attack the entire way through it and get the air release. He even says that without it it's pretty even.

 

[Popertop]

But in even matchups Wario has the advantage... >.>

But srsly.

Game and Watch matchup

I played Hylian's G&W, and that confirms what I thought about the matchup.
Guys, I think I may have turned this one around.

Spacing is key(lol). If you are spaced right (just outside the range of his Fsmash), it makes it a whole lot easier. If he bairs you can walk forward just a little bit and shield grab inbetween the hits. I find it easiest to grab inbetween the second and third hit. It helps to powershield the initial hit to avoid shield poke. This takes away his safest approach from the air. What I like to do is get below him to bait a Dair, then shield grab it once he hits the ground. You can even beat the Dair if you predict right because of the startup. Me and Hylain had some uber Uair/Dair battles with both of us getting hit. Pretty epic. After that happens, G&W will probably stay in his shield. This is where the fun starts. You can Dair and bite, all the usual stuff. Watch out for his smashes. If you are spaced right you can poke him with Fair before his Fsmash goes off. I haven't done anything about Dsmash yet, but most G&W's I've played don't really spam it. You can punish Usmash with Dair, but if you aren't close enough or don't react immediately, dont' risk it. That move is too strong. It's one of the only moves that can kill Wario below 100.

Besides spacing there isn't much to the matchup besides reading your opponent. And trust me reading a G&W isn't that hard.

Fsmash starts killing at 70-85, Waft kills at 50.
If you can kill him on the first stock before he kills you and then get a Waft kill at 50 on the second stock, you've essentially won the match.

I lost to Hylian's G&W mainly because I got gimped by Rainbow Cruise.
I nearly came back and then airdodged right into an Fsmash.

This matchup is very winnable, I would much rather face a G&W than a Falco anyday.

 

[3GOD]

He has it listed as that, but only because of the infinite. It's probably the easiest and most effective one to do because he can attack the entire way through it and get the air release. He even says that without it it's pretty even.

I think that without the infinite, it would be about 65-35 in Wario's favor...with the infinite (which is the only number that matters) is probably 50-50. What can Yoshi do besides the infinite to make this match-up in his favor by 30-70?

In Melee, Ice Climbers could infinite every character, but it was very difficult to setup, so it didn't really affect their match-ups that much. I think Yoshi's on Wario is a little easier to setup since you don't have to worry about Nana, but it's still not enough to warrant 30-70 in my opinion.

 

[PhantomX]

Most of Yoshi's strengths involve backair abuse, grabrelease to upsmash (which hurts) and eggs + nair. Not to mention if he pegs you with an upair you die really really early.

It's basically in the range. And Wario can't outweave him b/c Yoshi has the highest horizontal mobility, which also sucks. Plus some Yoshi's chase and can peg you off the bike and still make it to stage with their dj.

 

[DMG]

I played Hylian's G&W yesterday and I gotta tell you I'm ALMOST convinced it is even now except on certain stages. I did worst on Corneria for obvious reasons (He gets free, powerful buckets from the lasers, Dtilt lock on the lower half of the ship, Vertical Kills easy for G&W to get while Wario almost never hits with Uair).

You have to be on your toes and you can't goof off when it comes to dodging and spacing. Those matches with him were epic, both of us had some pretty insane moments during our fights. I really wish I got them recorded, sadly the camera we had ran out of battery power after recording previous matches of mine and a few friends.

I know G&W has the advantage, too much range and kill power on some of his moves, but you can also do some pretty nasty stuff to G&W when you get up close.

 

[PKNintendo]

Lucas+5-5

Grab release to fsmash doesn't work like some had anticipated but overall even if you're overly aggresive on edgegaurds.





To be fair, you cant gimp Lucas using Wario.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrNQsOXGSXc&feature=related

I feel that the matchup is kinda in Lucas favor. I mean, Nair outprioritizes your aresenal (Ive faced many Lucas) approaching a B sticking Lucas is quite difficult, and gimping him also hard. I dragged a Lucas of the edge with my bite, and he did that technique on me. Lucas also has stable ground game with good killers on that front.

He outranges Wario on the ground, and nair outprioritize him in the air.
Trust me, this is definetely 55-45 for Lucas. (maybe a 6-4 for Lucas too)

 

[PhantomX]

It's not really in Lucas' favor... I think you just haven't figured out how to play them yet. Also.... you can gimp Lucas fine... that technique is only viable if they have their double jump... and you weren't gonna gimp them when they had a dj anyway b/c Lucas' DJ is huge. The gimp comes after you interrupt it for whatever reason. Pk Fires are really a non-factor if you jump a lot (which you should), and perfect shield. The only problem Lucas poses for Wario is with his nair, his jabs, and his ftilt... and they're not gonna nair all game, b/c you can just not approach them (or hit them w/ a dair as they're landing... or even just shieldgrab it)... srsly, shieldgrabbing owns him (except for his dairs).

 

[Ace55]

I can't gimp Lucas?

Then what have I been doing all this time? It's harder than gimping Ness but it's still easy as hell.

Edit: Ok if the Lucas has his double jump and does this it's gonna become a bit harder. But without his double jump he's toast.

 

[PKNintendo]

It's not really in Lucas' favor... I think you just haven't figured out how to play them yet. Also.... you can gimp Lucas fine... that technique is only viable if they have their double jump... and you weren't gonna gimp them when they had a dj anyway b/c Lucas' DJ is huge. The gimp comes after you interrupt it for whatever reason. Pk Fires are really a non-factor if you jump a lot (which you should), and perfect shield. The only problem Lucas poses for Wario is with his nair, his jabs, and his ftilt... and they're not gonna nair all game, b/c you can just not approach them (or hit them w/ a dair as they're landing... or even just shieldgrab it)... srsly, shieldgrabbing owns him (except for his dairs).

Yes, but saving your double jump is easy. This technique is really a pain, trust me. Once you learn it, you can easily use it. Lucas PK fire in the air flies straight, and jumping alot still can't avoid the cluster of fires. Shield grabbing doesn't always works because Lucas air DI is good (not crazy like Wario) Of course I play Lucas, I play him all of the time. Trust me, it's definetely slightly in Lucas favor. But thanks for the tips. Also Shieldgrabbing owns everyone. not Lucas specifically.

 

[ShadowLink84]

80-20 vs Sonic?

I would have to say 65:35.
The main issue of course is Wario's airgame and bite. both of those are effective weapons for fighting Sonic.
Wario's airgame beats out Sonic's of course due to Wario's incredible agility in the air as well as his priority (though a tipped Bair WILL break a Fair from Wario).

Bite cannot be abused as much as people often think because of Sonic's ability to jump out of his spincharge and go into a Dair or his ability to cancel his dashes.
If you whiff a bite Sonic can punish you with an up angled Fsmash even while bite is out.


There is also another issue, Sonic's grabs. If Sonic grabs you there you WILL get boned. At the edge Sonic has an infinite on wario and its currently being tested by r4ze but he may have a CG on Wario (I am rather skeptical of it though).

The infinite isn't bad considering its situational but the other issue is the grab release. Once Sonic grabs Wario he can pummel once or twice and let Wario escape into the air. At which point an Fsmash will hit Wario a hundred percent of the time when it is angled up.

 

[PKNintendo]

Also 9-1 on G-dorf is a bit much. Don't you think it should be 7-3. (he can infinite you)

 

[Ace55]

Don't you think the Marth matchup is a bit extreme sHell? The discription still says it's pretty even, and that Wario mainers admit Marth has a slight advantage and then BAM! 30-70. Luigi still scares me way more.

 

[DMG]

Don't you think the Marth matchup is a bit extreme sHell? The discription still says it's pretty even, and that Wario mainers admit Marth has a slight advantage and then BAM! 30-70. Luigi still scares me way more.

Marth Scares me more than Luigi; he can grab release you but Luigi can't.

I think Marth is 35-65, or possibly 40-60. IDK I will probably be playing against Roy R and I'll see how well I do against him and report how the matchup feels.

 

[Ace55]

Marth Scares me more than Luigi; he can grab release you but Luigi can't.

I think Marth is 35-65, or possibly 40-60. IDK I will probably be playing against Roy R and I'll see how well I do against him and report how the matchup feels.

It's mostly just my inability to deal with Luigi vs Wario I guess. But I feel Luigi is at least as tough a matchup as Marth. If Luigi had grab release bullsh*t (grab release to up b?) it would really be rediculous.

 

[YouAreOutOfMy5]

I lol'd at DDD changed from 30-70 to LOL

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

I don't even know what to say about Wario vs Dedede.. I always found that match incredibly hard, even when the game came out.

 

[Popertop]

*ugh*
Despise that matchup.
It's funny though, I can beat D3's that don't rely on the chaingrab and only the chaingrab and actually play the game. You know, the actual good D3's?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

*ugh*
Despise that matchup.
It's funny though, I can beat D3's that don't rely on the chaingrab and only the chaingrab and actually play the game. You know, the actual good D3's?

Does that mean you can't beat ones that only rely on one tactic? I guess that would make the other Dededes inherently worse, or at least dumb.

 

[Popertop]

Well, I haven't played them in a while, so I wouldn't know...

 

[PhantomX]

Does that mean you can't beat ones that only rely on one tactic? I guess that would make the other Dededes inherently worse, or at least dumb.

Battletoads ****ing rule!

 

[Jeepy Sol]

I'd like to know your guys' opinion on Peach. I fought Bone's Peach the other day, and it was pretty rough. I don't have much Peach experience, but it definitely didn't seem like it was in my advantage. I think it should be neutral.

 

[Popertop]

She's too light.

Uair can beat Dair if you space it right.

Her combos aren't all that great.

Once you pile on the damage it's over.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'd like to know your guys' opinion on Peach. I fought Bone's Peach the other day, and it was pretty rough. I don't have much Peach experience, but it definitely didn't seem like it was in my advantage. I think it should be neutral.

It's annoying. Peach has ridiculous priority, but she has trouble killing. At points, you can outrun her and pressure well, but if she gets you in a tough spot, she'll steamroll you for a little while.

6-4, in Wario's favor, I think.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Meh, all I know is, she could just float above me while I was on the ground, and d-air the **** out of me. Our F-smash is so easily punishable when sheilded. And I know I got KO'd by f-air a couple times.

EDIT: Also, Bone is a beastly Peach. I was a bit overwhelmed. @___@

But yeah, like I said, I don't have much Peach experience, so I'll definitely take your word for it.

 

[DMG]

6-4 for Wario is my opinion as well.

Somewhere, someone said something about ROB getting an Usmash after a grab release on Wario. Can anyone confirm this? This might be enough to tip it slightly in ROB's favor, unless Blue sHell already weighed that in the matchup.