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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

moogle

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Messages
601
Location
Huntsville, AL
How does Sheik go about edgeguarding a Puff? I played on in tournament the other day and I tried to shffl bairs but they would always just go low to the ledge. If I tried to grab the ledge, they went high. Should I just force them to go high and punish them if possible?
My edgeguarding strategy vs Puff is to stand in the exact center of the stage and charge needles. :) The time she spends coming back to the stage gets you a full needle charge. I find that to be more fruitful than trying to predict where Puff is going and hitting with bair.
 

BO/\K

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Messages
76
Location
Seattle, WA
How does Sheik go about edgeguarding a Puff? I played on in tournament the other day and I tried to shffl bairs but they would always just go low to the ledge. If I tried to grab the ledge, they went high. Should I just force them to go high and punish them if possible?
Hit her with needles as much as you can to gobble up her jumps. Also puff doesn't move very quickly vertically but Sheik does so high vs low shouldn't matter. Although if the puff is high enough to be able to fly to center stage with a single jump it probably doesn't qualify as an edgeguard. So if that's the case back off and maintain stage control and get ready to smack her again.

Grabbing the ledge is probably a good standard option since ledgehop bair covers so much of offstage. I've also had success with invincible ledgehop nairs against puffs who love the ledge too much.
 
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hectohertz

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
800
Location
Brooklyn, NY
i edgeguard puff fairly aggressively. some pointers:

- if she's high up, just do empty short hops near the edge of the stage. dont actually grab the ledge. Follow where she goes and try to stay under her (but not directly under her). you want to be in position to hit her with a bair.

- if she goes low, take ledge. nair/bair from ledge are amazing. bair is very safe and if done right leads to looping situations where it knocks her away, you grab ledge again, and you can repeat. nair from ledge is great for a quick stage spike, but they can tech it and you can get reversed.

- when shes going low, get good at doing drop from ledge, jump, needles and land on stage. super useful. also when shes low + far, stand near the ledge, DJ needles is really good if you have a decent amount.

- tagging her with a full set of needles when shes horizontal from you is super important, forces her to go high or low, which we already dsicussed how to punish
 

CrazyCupofJoe

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 29, 2014
Messages
71
Where should I counterpick Marth, Jiggs, and Falco assuming they don't ban it? I was thinking FoD for Marth, Yoshi's for Jiggs, and BF for Falco but I just wanted to know if anyone thought differently.
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Battlefield is better against Marth generally because the platforms are so high, but that hinges a bit on how much they rely on forward smash and Utilt/Uair strings / how adapt you are at utilizing platforms. The lack of a walled edge makes recovery for Marth just slightly more difficult and your gimps will be more likely to put them in a horrible spot for recovering. IMO: BF > DL > FoD > PS > FD > YS

Puff definitely hates Yoshi's, there's no issue there really. Low platforms are your friends as well since up smash and up air kill so early on Puff/are your only real kill options. It varies a little bit but generally I'd say: YI > PS > FoD > BF > FD > DL

Falco... I question constantly because he does so fantastically on platforms, but platforms are often great for Sheik as well. It's far less clear cut than most match ups—it depends a lot on the Falco as well as on the Sheik. If your grab game is immaculate and you can handle laser pressure well FD is prime. Dreamland gives Sheik more ground to utilize if you're super patient and wanna force the Falco to approach. FoD has silly platforms that mess with Falco's short hop game, but good Falco players can circumvent that to a large degree. Falco's a match up where you really need a read on your opponent's strengths and weaknesses and a consciousness of your own abilities and go from there. BF seems best in a vacuum, given how it limits recovery below the ledge (which sheik is good at forcing by nature) but I don't think it's really that simple (I mean, that applies to every match up, but maybe even moreso with this one). Just don't go to Yoshi's. lol

A good thing to do in any match up is to pay attention to what they ban in the first game: If they strike first, take note of what their second strike is because that's normally where they'll strike their weak stage (since they'll tend to strike your best stage first; if they strike second, pay attention to what they prioritize striking and if they contemplate anything and do some soul searching of your own even before you make the final strike so that you can know what to watch for in your first game.
 
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hectohertz

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
800
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Where should I counterpick Marth, Jiggs, and Falco assuming they don't ban it? I was thinking FoD for Marth, Yoshi's for Jiggs, and BF for Falco but I just wanted to know if anyone thought differently.
just my opinions:

marth: DL is his worst stage. its the only stage he cant hit the side platforms with an fsmash. you live ridic long, and youll be mostly gimping him (or fairing him into a range he cant recover), so the bigness helps you and hurts him. BF is also very good, it hurts his recovery, but not yours. the top platform being high up also helps you. traditionally, i had been banning FD against marth (as its traditionally been considered his strongest stage in the matchup, since you lose platforms for needle pressure, and no platforms extend his combos). recently, im viewing FD as being stronger for you than yoshis/FoD, since both of those stages give him significant ability to control space (since the platforms + stage are small). they also greatly reduce your survivability. i also think stadium is a great CP against marth. early kills off the top, NILs on the side platforms, plenty of room to space him out with needles. no top platform hurts though.

falco: against falco you need space. FD sucks, because you have no platforms to deal with his laser pressure, and his combos are super extended by no platforms. if youre tech-chases are PERFECT, it can be worth it, but i ban it always (and i have a pretty strong tech-chase game). yoshis + FoD both act as a playground for his combos, and dont give you enough space to deal with him. DL + BF are both very strong stages. DL gives you the most space to deal with him, and since youll mostly be gimping, and his recovery sucks, the large blastlines really help. BF hurts his recovery more, but is slightly smaller. on the other hand, your needle pressure is better on BF. stadium is bad, but not as bad as FD, although thats personal preference.

jiggs: jiggs is weird. i think you win the matchup by camping her out, so DL isnt as bad as it might appear at first glance. you have plenty of room to camp her, but your moves wont kill for a while. you get better recovery though. i think FoD is sheiks worst stage in this matchup, as its tiny, giving you no ability to camp her out. you cant kill off the top, and you have no space to avoid rest when you recover onto the stage. FD is mixed (KK is a big fan). i used to hate it because getting knocked off stage WILL be a rest (no mixups possible with no platforms). however, if you play campy + patiently enough, you can get a lot out of the stage. its much easier to trap her above you with no platform mixups for her, you get nice early kills off the top, and if you are smart, you can control space really well with needles and aerials. PS is amazing for you, its like FD but with platforms for mixups and lower ceiling. YS is a mixed bag. you get super early kills (but so does she), and you lack space, which i think is super necessary in the matchup. tipper usmash when shes on the side platform (from underneath) will kill at like 23% if fully charged.
 
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Laudandus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
200
Location
San Jose
I feel like every stage is kinda bad vs Marth, but I ban Yoshi's because you don't get to use your recovery and it's tiny. In my experience I almost always end up on FD vs Marths.

Falco is really really hard on FD, but I find he's fine on every other stage. About the same on all of them, in my experience. I choose based on how the first match went.

vs Puff I don't like Dreamland, because I think Sheik wins unless she messes up and gets rested, and she has more chances to get rested in a longer match. I love Dreamland vs other floaties, but for me that consideration wins out on the stage. I used to like FD before I understood the matchup because I like simplicity in matchups I don't know well, but now I prefer stages with platforms because shield dropping is amazing. I like all the other stages, especially Yoshi's because killing early is great.
 

EddyBearr

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
1,202
Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
So the other day in friendlies I was playing a fox who likes to waveshine to grab ledge while I'm shino stalling. I baited them into attempting it, but as they were going for it, I ledgedashed into turnaround f-tilt (he was at like 60% and didn't CC) with the intention to get into a ledgeguarding situation. Unfortunately, I didn't follow up because I'm terrible, but I wanted to ask you all what you think of that option.

I feel it's very useful at the right percents (for both players) but it's only viable if conditioning the opponent.
 
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Laudandus

Smash Journeyman
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Sep 13, 2009
Messages
200
Location
San Jose
@ EddyBearr EddyBearr a similar thing was useful vs Lord because he likes to side-B the back of my shield after waveland -> shield. I don't know if it is optimal even as an answer to that, though. I think ledge hop aerial is usually better.
 

Wow_Ben

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
6
Location
Evansville
So when tech chasing fox what should you do when A.) they di behind you >tech in place> shine. the 20xx computer does this and i dont think pivot grab is fast enough to grab them
B.) what if they tech roll away the max distance their tech roll takes them and spot-dodge shine
So basically what should i do against these to continue my tech chase??
Or is it the simple answer " you must tech chase on reaction or you are to slow"
 

Laudandus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
200
Location
San Jose
If they DI behind, you should be able to turn around before they land and then it's the same as if they just went in front of you.

Basically walk to follow so they always land right in front of you, and start running after they land.
 

BO/\K

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Messages
76
Location
Seattle, WA
Tech chasing has two steps. 1) follow DI before they land 2) react to tech. Your problem is you aren't following their pre-tech DI behind. You follow it by turning around.
 

EddyBearr

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
1,202
Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Recently, while up a stock (or stocks) against space animals and while at very high percent (basically guaranteed to be killed,) I've been jabbing (fast hit) them to get some guaranteed damage. They're usually so antsy to get at me that they DI in until 25-30%, then they start DI'ing out and I can time my ending to get away safely.

Thoughts?
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Tech chasing has two steps. 1) follow DI before they land 2) react to tech. Your problem is you aren't following their pre-tech DI behind. You follow it by turning around.
Stressing this even more by saying: watch how mew2king techchases spacies: you'll see he almost always wavedashes in the direction of their DI, which essentially puts it back into the position of no DI, where the typical punishes work:
1. No tech = jab reset, double jab mixup if you find they smash DI the jabs, f-tilt, d-tilt, or wait and punish...
a. get-up attack = shield grab
b. roll = dash grab.
c. regular get up = dash dance grab (to avoid the probable shine) or just jab/f-tilt/etc.
2. tech in place = grab. It's a tight window so practice with someone.
3. Tech roll = tech read + boost grab (away) or dash grab (behind)
You can be lazy and dash attack, too, but mind CC percents. Watch for when you can just f-tilt or u-tilt, too, 'cause that'll always end in fair. A lot of this does come down to getting in tune with your opponent's patterns, though. People will tend to do the same thing until it stops working, so when you do punish something perfectly, expect them to do something different.
 
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hectohertz

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
800
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Stressing this even more by saying: watch how mew2king techchases spacies: you'll see he almost always wavedashes in the direction of their DI, which essentially puts it back into the position of no DI, where the typical punishes work:
1. No tech = jab reset, double jab mixup if you find they smash DI the jabs, f-tilt, d-tilt, or wait and punish...
a. get-up attack = shield grab
b. roll = dash grab.
c. regular get up = dash dance grab (to avoid the probable shine) or just jab/f-tilt/etc.
2. tech in place = grab. It's a tight window so practice with someone.
3. Tech roll = tech read + boost grab (away) or dash grab (behind)
You can be lazy and dash attack, too, but mind CC percents. Watch for when you can just f-tilt or u-tilt, too, 'cause that'll always end in fair. A lot of this does come down to getting in tune with your opponent's patterns, though. People will tend to do the same thing until it stops working, so when you do punish something perfectly, expect them to do something different.

dash attack is no longer fake-CC'able after 50% (without double stick DI anyway). fakeCC is important here because since you're tech-chasing them, they can't actually crouch
 

hectohertz

Smash Ace
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Messages
800
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Brooklyn, NY
different question: what characters does camping top platform work against? i've recently used it very sucessfully against peach + ICs, wondering what other characters this is good against
 

CrazyCupofJoe

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 29, 2014
Messages
71
different question: what characters does camping top platform work against? i've recently used it very sucessfully against peach + ICs, wondering what other characters this is good against
Seems pretty useful against Puff as it takes her a long time to get up there.
 

EddyBearr

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
1,202
Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
different question: what characters does camping top platform work against? i've recently used it very sucessfully against peach + ICs, wondering what other characters this is good against
I dislike being above Peach as Sheik (I actually prefer to be grounded against her), and against IC's I always preferred to camp a side platform, because that way I threatened them more and could abuse my vertical movement to escape when threatened.

Ice exemplifies what I mean from 3:05 to 3:30. However, Fly Amanita catches his evasive tactic @3:28 and gets an upsmash while he tries to run away.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTv05aoV-1k#t=3m05s
 
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cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
In general I feel like Falco's the only character that can truly camp top platform well (see Westballz vs. Armada at TBH4) and that's clearly due to his powerful, high priority Dair. I'm sure Falcon could do something similar, but not to the degree that Falco can (especially given Falco's vertical mobility). Comparing game one to the other games of the set displays how much stronger this strategy is for Falco, since West kinda gets bodied outside game one. Sheik just doesn't have the same kind of power coming down when Nair is arguably her strongest option.

The two things that need to be true for this to work are: 1. The opponent cannot jump to top platform well, 2. The opponent cannot shark the top platform well. So:
Fox: Neither, Uair sharks, doublejump is fast and sufficient.
Falco: Neither, FH is sufficient, shine can shark and launch.
Sheik: Neither, high jumps and a strong UAir.
Marth: Neither, strong aerials, specifically UAir.
Jigglypuff: 1 & maybe 2. UAir could be an option.
Peach: 1 & 2

Falcon: Neither, strong aerial game in general.
Ice Climbers: 1 & maybe 2. The disjoint on UAir makes me skeptical.

(Doctor) Mario: ??? I can't picture how high the mario bros' jumps are, but Uair can probably shark?
Pikachu: Uair man.
Samus: High jump boots and fair or nair. Up B even.
Ganondorf: 1, but Uair sharks.
Luigi: ??? I can't picture how high the mario bros' jumps are, but Uair can probably shark?

(Young) Link: Young Link has no problems, Link has to depend on Uair because of slow and short jumps.
DK: Has great Uair stuff and solid jumps.
Yoshi: Eggs, UAir, DJC.
Zelda: Can transform into sheik.
Roy: UAir?
Mewtwo: Great jumps and Great Aerials.
G&W: Could maybe have trouble?
Ness: 2. DJ puts him way high.
Bowser: 1 & 2 probs.
Pichu: No problems.
Kirby: 1. U Air can shark I think.
 

hectohertz

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
800
Location
Brooklyn, NY
In general I feel like Falco's the only character that can truly camp top platform well (see Westballz vs. Armada at TBH4) and that's clearly due to his powerful, high priority Dair. I'm sure Falcon could do something similar, but not to the degree that Falco can (especially given Falco's vertical mobility). Comparing game one to the other games of the set displays how much stronger this strategy is for Falco, since West kinda gets bodied outside game one. Sheik just doesn't have the same kind of power coming down when Nair is arguably her strongest option.

The two things that need to be true for this to work are: 1. The opponent cannot jump to top platform well, 2. The opponent cannot shark the top platform well. So:
Fox: Neither, Uair sharks, doublejump is fast and sufficient.
Falco: Neither, FH is sufficient, shine can shark and launch.
Sheik: Neither, high jumps and a strong UAir.
Marth: Neither, strong aerials, specifically UAir.
Jigglypuff: 1 & maybe 2. UAir could be an option.
Peach: 1 & 2

Falcon: Neither, strong aerial game in general.
Ice Climbers: 1 & maybe 2. The disjoint on UAir makes me skeptical.

(Doctor) Mario: ??? I can't picture how high the mario bros' jumps are, but Uair can probably shark?
Pikachu: Uair man.
Samus: High jump boots and fair or nair. Up B even.
Ganondorf: 1, but Uair sharks.
Luigi: ??? I can't picture how high the mario bros' jumps are, but Uair can probably shark?

(Young) Link: Young Link has no problems, Link has to depend on Uair because of slow and short jumps.
DK: Has great Uair stuff and solid jumps.
Yoshi: Eggs, UAir, DJC.
Zelda: Can transform into sheik.
Roy: UAir?
Mewtwo: Great jumps and Great Aerials.
G&W: Could maybe have trouble?
Ness: 2. DJ puts him way high.
Bowser: 1 & 2 probs.
Pichu: No problems.
Kirby: 1. U Air can shark I think.

marry me this post is like everything i wanted to say about camping as sheik
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
That all said, I've implemented a more campy approach to my Sheik game in that I do actually camp top platform in matchups against the aforementioned "characters that may have trouble" and found it to be successful to an extent. The other major component (which Scar alluded to in the commentary of the TBH4 match) is that the player needs to have the patience to enlist such a strategy, which is exceedingly rare and never positively received: one can look as close as Hungrybox for that, or as far as Rayquaza from my local scene (who literally tries to time out matches) to see evidence of both.
 
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JobahFett

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 4, 2014
Messages
15
Location
Holland, MI
Hey guys! I am a sheik main in Michigan and i just went to a local tournament where i was lucky enough to play on stream and I was hoping to get some advice on my play.
i play singles match against a fox and around 21:00 i play a teams match. i didnt have a chance to play any friendlies before the tournament started because of the lack of setups and late arrival so i know i dropped a couple tech chases and edge guards. id really appreciate any advice or tips for the singles match or doubles match because my partner and I are super motivated to play more teams now ( we placed 4th in a stacked tournament and it was i first time!)
Below is the link to my matches on twitch
http://www.twitch.tv/meleeitonme/b/582247336
singles match- 7:00
doubles match-21:00ish
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Sup Jonah. This is technically more fitting for the Sheik video thread, but I'll just give it a shot now and mods can move it there if they find it necessary.

I've found in my Fox games that the tech chase is literally the most important aspect of the game, and that it is essential to have that aspect on point, even if it's your first match of the day. Know that your needle camping is better than their laser camping as well, as you have better mobility and options with them than Fox has with lasers because of their hitstun, varied trajectory, charge/cancel option, and higher damage output. So Fox has to approach more than you need to, which leads to setting up a grab for the tech chase. Scope out how Foxes react to this techchase (i.e. which tech options do they prefer, do they purposely miss techs to throw off reactions, do they avoid the ledge, what do they do to throw off your reactions, etc.). Your inevitable goal is to get Fox near the ledge so you can throw them off for the early percent KO, which essentially comes down to good edge play. Needles, sweetspot BAir, dropzone fair, SH Nair, wall jump fairs in some cases, and Dair from ledge to punish on stage recoveries are all great tools for that. This is the theoretical standpoint I'll be working with, to better inform my commentary.

So that first grab was fantastic, but where you failed initially is in reading the DI and following it with a wavedash: fox DI'd left and then techrolled left. This information tells you that the Fox is trying to escape a techchase situation, which means he's afraid of the techchase. This information in relation to the situation at hand shows he's afraid of the ledge, too (he DI'd away AND rolled away). Invariably, the Fox is reacting in a textbook fashion, and should inform your later techchases.

Next, you do a few questionable up airs which I don't fully understand the point of. They seem like empty moves that don't control a lot of space (given the specific hitbox of UAir, as your first attempt proves) and in effect limit your own options. Fox could've easily read your landing and gotten a grab after the second one at ~7:45. Nair would've landed in the first attempt, for example.

After that you get a Jab to Downsmash which sends a Fox away, and he misses the tech: this is also a techchase opportunity. Instead of following his DI (toward the edge) you stand and charge needles, letting Fox reestablish neutral and get off with 13%. This is probably cautionary, as the same situation arises again shortly thereafter and you eat an upsmash for it (possibly because you didn't boost grab, which feels like the best option).

Now your first stock loss was because of a movement flub: you missed a perfect wavedash onto the platform. I have to ask, though: why did you need the wavedash? You took the platform to avoid Fox's aerial, but the wavedash puts you far away from Fox (who again is near the ledge). I feel as though getting above Fox in general isn't a great option, given his strong aerials (particularly UAir) combined with Sheik's weak downward aerial and anti-air options (Nair being the strongest). You may have subliminally had the idea of the wavedash to bair idea lingering from when it hit at 7:56, but it doesn't actually make sense here. Going to the platform is also questionable, since Fox is also at a high enough percent that f-tilt will set up for an aerial or platform techchase (this is further aided by the fact that Fox went for a DAir).

You do recover with a KO shortly thereafter, but you give up your stage control when you fully charge your needles. Fox drops the conrol and you get a solid needle grab, though, but it's something to be conscious of: that extra 3% isn't worth the stage control you give up. Your next techchase off of that needle grab is much better, but the way you drop it again doesn't make any sense: fox has no way of being where you grabbed, so I suspect it's a flubbed input again. The DSmash on the next missed tech is really suboptimal as well: a dtilt or ftilt would've popped the Fox up, a jab reset would link into a strong DSmash for an edgeguard as well as a dtilt or ftilt, or you could've even read the roll behind (based on your first techchase's information) and regrabbed. It covered a lot of options, but it's comparatively a very weak punish: depth over breadth is an applicable ideology here.

At 8:40 you approach with dash attack, which is just a really bad habit that a lot of Sheiks (myself included) are in the habit of doing. Replace any of those instances with boost grab and you'll be doing a lot better: just think about what happens most of the time—a shield grab.

You do get an edgeguard situation around 8:50, which is where you REALLY need to control space and limit Fox's options. That REALLY high side-b went completely unpunished when you should've been setting up your wall of bairs.

At 9:00 you land a UAir, but then make that mistake of overestimating the hitstun, and fox jumps away while you're stuck in an aerial (another uair, which probably stopped your momentum) so you can't follow up. What I've started doing is faking that aerial chase so that they burn their jump, but I can follow up and catch their landing. Again, it's limiting options in that sort of edgeguard mentality.

At 9:05 you follow the DI again and go for a hard punish with down smash and whiff it. Slow down a bit and apply the same tech chase ideas you would use with a grab. If they missed the tech, they only have four options: roll away, roll toward, standing, and get-up attack. This is another instance where you can dash toward them, faking a follow-up that you can't actually get, which scares them into doing something. In this case, you did a real follow-up which forced them to do the roll toward option, which caused a whiff. Had you wavedashed, you could've grabbed, back threw, and edgeguarded.

At 9:15 you use a similar kind of idea: Fox failed to edgeguard you and ended up reversing the situation: you're on stage and he's on ledge. He rushes to get the followup, but is too slow and gets down smashed for it. This could've been you just ten seconds ago!

But then at 9:25 you try to do another hard read with that upsmash after the grab. I'll give you that Fox did an unexpected option (roll toward ledge), but your choice also didn't cover the roll to center (the option I'd have expected). He whiffed a grab and got downsmashed, but still punished easily. This should tell you that the downsmash also wasn't a good option (because it's not: Fox doesn't even get knocked down from it). Had he pummeled more in his grab to UAir, it would've been a stock.

And I think it's your habit of throwing out Up Airs recklessly that costs your stock directly thereafter. I don't think there are any situations where Up Air is the best aerial you can throw out against a spacie: they tend to be able to jump out of it, it's difficult to follow up, and it doesn't set up for edgeguards. Nair covers the most space, fair is a solid neutral hit, and dair is a great move to follow up on. Up Air is more useful vs. floaties where it's actually a stronger KO option than Fair (think of how powerful down throw to up air is against Peach).

After that stock you again give up an opportunity to use your invincibility to gain stage control in favor of a needle charge. It's really not worth it: use your invincibility to pressure Fox to run away to a less favorable position. You do get Fox into an edgeguard situation at 9:45, but you trade with Firefox and he gets back: it feels like a panic move, probably due to the jump directly before; you're facing backward, not confident with the turnaround f-tilt, so just downsmash and hope for the best? Truth is, you shouldn't have jumped, but even though you did, you could've b-reversed or just dropped in with a bair outright to hit Fox out of his recovery; if you hadn't jumped, you could've wavedashed to ledge and baired, or you could've f-tilted, or you could've waited to punish the landing. The jump limited your own options and forced a trade which inevitably would've been okay had you teched it, which tells me you didn't view the downsmash as a panic move that would not work perfectly (or you flubbed an input). The grab after was SO crisp though. I don't see why you didn't forward throw, and I definitely don't get why you jumped.

That down smash at 10:12 is another example of a panic move, I think. Down smash is extremely commital and punishable, so I think running away and restoring neutral is a far better option, especially considering Fox shielded after the ledge climb (a very strange choice). Again, it's a repetition of 9:15 where the edgeguard situation reverses, but this time the Fox is more cautious. Ledge options are very similar to missed tech options: they can do a regular get up, roll in, or roll away (ledgehop). Your best option is to move in to punish those options, but the fear is real, I'm sure. Neutral isn't bad; downsmashing is unless your read is perfect.

The same sort of thing happens AGAIN at 10:20 where you down smash and Fox just rolls through it with his invincibility and then gets the KO. You could've just grabbed. He's even at >100%, so you KNOW the slow get up will telegraph his option. In that situation, wavedash back and a grab read is all you needed to take the stock. Instead you get shine KO'd. The down smash edgeguard at 10:45 was perfect: that's the situation you use it in.

The dash attack at 11:05 is another opportunity to boost grab, as is the roll away after the grab, which itself shouldn't have happened as you could've jab reset on the no tech.

This is already a lot to digest, and I think I spent entirely too long writing all of this, so I'll stop here for now. General takeaways:
- Integrate the techchase more into your game, and understand that it works off of any move—not just grab.
- Tighten up your inputs. There were a lot of situations that could've just been control flubs, but those shouldn't happen regardless.
- Slow down a bit and understand your options, especially hitlag and ending lag. Observe situations where you make questionable decisions and avoid repeating the same mistake twice.
- Stop using up air in the Fox match up. There's [probably] never a time that it's better than a fair.
- Save down smash for opportune moments. It's good at low-mid percents to keep Fox away and rack up percent, but once he can't CC d-tilt (someone help me on the percent?) d-tilt is the better option because it combos more readily. It's rarely your best edgeguard option, but there are situations where it works (and this game proves it).
- You seem uncomfortable with your edgeguarding, given that you never seem to set up for an edgeguard when you can (this might even account for your UAirs). That is one of Sheik's strongest game plans: USE IT.
- Don't sit where there's light blinding you.
 
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BTmoney

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vs. falco is there a dthrow tech chase set up that involves a combination of ftilt and dash attack rather than going for the regrab?

I feel like starting at medium percent you can dthrow->WD/walk out of get up attack range->ftilt the tech in place/no tech and dash attack (or even ftilt) the tech in towards you. I'm practicing this vs the CPU on the 20XX hack pack (with random techs and DI). Also, what about tech chasing with dsmash? I feel like there has to be some way to get a 3/4ths tech chase on Falco if Falcon can do it (which he can if he's fast, knee tech in place/no tech->JC grab tech in). Sheik has so much range.


does anyone have any strats for tech chasing falco? I find it to be really hard

edit:
looking for veteran sheik input preferably since you would have played the MU for plenty long enough to do something better than dthrow->guess and maybe get spot dodge->shined like my sheik does
 
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cisyphus

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I can't imagine why you'd want to use ftilt/dash attack over regrab tbh (outside of them being in KO percent) outside the fact that you're not good at the techchase. A regrab just leads to more regrabs if your techchases are on point, which is free damage. Falco's the hardest character to techchase, so practice it a lot. Find a Falco main that can grind it out with you. To illustrate:
f-tilt damage in percent: 6%
d-smash damage in percent: 13% at most
2 down throws + pummels: 16% at least (throws are 8% each)

F-tilt is harder to react to DI on (because of the ending lag) and more variable vs. spacies than the techchase (ex. one can DI away the f-tilt, tech roll away and regain neutral), and d-smash is a finisher, so you probably won't get to follow up on it without some awful play vs. your opponent. That's not to say they don't have their place, though. A basic flow chart is:
1. Grab
2. Pummel. A lot of Sheiks don't do this enough, but good pummels within the techchase make it less tedious, and if you find someone that doesn't mash (listen for it), it's so much free damage.
3. D-Throw
4. FOLLOW THE DI. This can be with a foxtrot, a wavedash, or a dashdance. This also helps to counter slight DI behind so that you don't need to turn around to regrab and stops DI Away and tech roll away from shutting down your follow up chances.
5. No tech is either a jab reset, a no-tech read, or a tilt/d-smash/u-smash depending on percents/opponent habits.
  1. Jab reset only works on Falco to ~30% iirc (there's a "tech chasing spacies thread" somewhere in these forums that give all kinds of percents), which forces whatever buffer the opponent used, which translates to the four no-tech options. After that he gets popped up. This can be mitigated with double jab, but then they can smash DI. You could f-tilt, but:
  2. No-techs are either roll away, roll toward, get up attack, or stand. They're easier than the tech options, so you're already in a good spot. Shield the get up attack, read the others.
  3. If they're at a percent where you can KO with a tilt/usmash -> Fair, by all means do it! D-smash can be used in situations where you're not comfortable with the edgeguard.
6. Tech options are tougher, but you can reach them regardless of what they do. You just need to react properly. I'm pretty sure this has been discussed in the last page or two already (in addition to in many posts in the forum). Know when to use what grab (be it standing, JC, dash, or boost).
7. Grab (aka go back to #1)
8. Back throw off ledge for the edgeguard or do 5.3.

So I mean, any situation where you'd use any other option, grab is also an option, and the reward of grabbing is so much greater than the reward of getting one hit in every situation except when that one hit will KO. You can fall back on those other options if you're feeling especially shaky on a follow-up, but it's preferable that you get solid enough that that doesn't occur.
 
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BTmoney

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So I mean, any situation where you'd use any other option, grab is also an option, and the reward of grabbing is so much greater than the reward of getting one hit in every situation except when that one hit will KO.
In a vacuum yes but does that actually make sense? Playing RPS is much better than getting one hit in every situation?

My point is ultimately no matter how true what you're saying is, cause it's true at least the part about grab being the best option, tech chasing falco on reaction is flat out hard and pretty much at every level you see players making reads or guesses. Why do you think that is? If it was that simple I'm sure that players like m2k, kk, ice etc. would grab you once and 0 to death you (or tech chase you until high %) since yes, you can cover all options. Nobody ever does though. People get like 2 or 3 then usually make a read which they may or may not get or just drop it. Is literally every sheik player just missing something?

I'm sure there's a way to make this less of a crap shoot. Falcon gets a true 3/4ths tech chase on falco (and fox) with ~4 frames of leniency . You can knee or bair no tech/tech in place and are guaranteed to be able to cover tech in with JC grab. The best example I can find off the top of my head wizzrobe vs. mango @ bh4. He does it pretty much perfectly a few times game one.

I know Sheik is not falcon but with the way her DA works, her range on her Ftilt, dsmash, and boost grab even I can really feel a similar set up probably exists in some capacity for sheik. It may not be the hardest punish, obviously, but if it's consistent it'd be worth implementing. I practice this a lot of CPUs with random DI + teching on and it really feels like there is a possible method (that doesn't lose too hard to CC too). Sometimes I "get it" but it's hard to test if you really would have covered the timing of tech in place correctly while reactively hitting tech away (since the CPU isn't there, obviously).
 
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cisyphus

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The thing is, mew2king, kirbykaze, ice, and drephen all do 0 to death people from a single grab. m2k is famous for it, lol. I know because Drephen can, because he did it to me eight stocks in a row at Super Sweet. KK probably would if we ever actually played and Ice definitely would if I ever got the chance to play him. Now they all are a lot better than I am, but I mean, I pull it off against the Fox/Falco mains in my area, and they're all probably better at the game than I am because I still lose sets despite getting 5+ regrabs in the techchase. The point I'm attempting to make is this: had I skipped the regrab and just down smashed or whatever, I'd have missed out on those next 4+ grabs, which translates to something like 35% which is plain and simple a HUGE improvement, not to discount the stage advantage and mental impact of getting a great techchase. It makes people afraid to approach. It slows the game down, which is more or less what Sheik wants in the first place. The other point I want to make is that—again—you want to obtain the strongest punish possible: the zero to death, and typically, grab is what will accomplish that. I never denied that there are situations in which you plainly can't go for the regrab either. Conceptually, grab is the best option, but a good player will know when they've lost that option (due to a missed read or what have you) and will pick the next best option which is entirely dependent on the situation. The problem with that, using your Falcon example, is that if your opponent knows you'll go for that (reading your read essentially) then you whiff and they reestablish neutral for free or even get a punish off of it. Yes, no one can be perfect all the time, but there's no reason not to aspire to such heights anyway. Neglecting something solely because it's difficult is silly in this game: it'd be like not learning how to waveshine upsmash as Fox. It's hard, and the inputs are tricky, but the reward and utility of having it in your arsenal is worth it. The difference here is that Sheik's entire game can be built effectively on the techchase, so maybe it's more accurate to compare it to Falcon's need to SHFFL. This isn't a game that rewards laziness, and that includes skipping out on the tough stuff. I'll point again to the other threads that exist in the Sheik forum, where you can read exactly how KK and other top Sheik players go about the tech chase to make it easier.
 
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Zeppeli

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F-tilt doesn't work at low %s since fast fallers are gonna hold down, CC your **** and get away. Regrab is basically the only decent option (setting jab reset aside for non-techable knockdowns) at low %s.
 

EddyBearr

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Here in Minnesota, we have a few Zelda mains. One is just plain better than me (some of us have argued better than The Lake) and the others should all be manageable, but I don't know the matchup, and I really should before I lose a match I could have won.

Combos aren't really a problem, nor grab follow-ups, but.. how do I get in on Zelda? 4 failed approaches is easily losing a stock against Zelda, and I'd rather know what options work best beforehand rather than trying to figure out during a tournament set.
 
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cisyphus

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I played a Fox today and techchased him to 70% and then tilt -> aerial KO'd out of neutral. It brings up a point I forgot to make earlier: going for the techchase vs. Falco—even if you flub it—makes you REALLY GOOD AT TECHCHASING. Falco is the hardest character to techchase (probably) so moving down to Fox is way easier, and Falcon is just a big dummy. There's value in doing it outside of just winning.

Anyway, Zelda. All she can do is space fair and bair, so I can't imagine it's that hard. Needle her a lot then punish her predictable approach option (SHFFL Fair). She's crazy light like Peach so KO with d-throw -> Uair. basically every other option she has is jank. Watch:
Jab: DI up and pick your favorite aerial
Grab: hella slow with bad range, which kinda neutralizes her decent throws.
d-tilt: CCable for a looooong time.
f-tilt: semi-solid launcher that you can crouch under unless it's tilted down. (this is probably her only other good option)
u-tilt: semi-solid launcher that you can crouch under.
D-smash: low knockback.
F-smash: smash di up.
Usmash: smash di down.
Nair: laughably bad. CCable and all.
Fair: actually really good.
Bair: actually really good.
Dair: laughably bad.
Uair: laughable underwhelming.
B: Can't combo, doesn't come out quick (so it doesn't stop comboing very well).
UpB: It's basically just a really long version of Sheik's with worse hitboxes: she can't move out of it at all so edgeguard her like you do sheik, but know that on-stage is a stronger option.
SideB: Super slow
DownB: Most broken move in Zelda's arsenal.

If she's b/fairing your approaches, just WD back and grab the landing. Or crouch and they'll probably miss. Anything else I think you just flat out beat.
 
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EddyBearr

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I'm still pretty concerned of the matchup, because I don't want to get kicked.

Anyone have any actual experience vs Zelda? Run up Shield and punish if not sweetspotted, or mix up with grab if they to grab you or do anything else? I don't want to theory-craft the match as much as I want something grounded in happenings.
 

Laudandus

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Re : Zelda, all I have to add is that the lake told me in 2010 that Sheik can just do what Zelda does but better vs her, and that made enough sense to me at the time that I did really well against his Zelda forever. She is extremely terrible but I'm having some trouble articulating exactly why.
 

EddyBearr

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Looking to pick up Sheik as a secondary, particularly against Marth. What should I do to get started?
To be honest, Sheik isn't that good a counterpick against Marth if you already main a top tier. Marth can and will destroy a Sheik who doesn't put ample time in the character, and the Marth matchup is kinda..dynamic. There's so many options that work well, but choosing the best (the options that give her a definite advantage on Marth) is a little harder and nuanced. By contrast, the Marth only has to know how to juggle. You'd probably be better off fine-tuning the Falco.
 
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Jackson

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To be honest, Sheik isn't that good a counterpick against Marth if you already main a top tier. Marth can and will destroy a Sheik who doesn't put ample time in the character, and the Marth matchup is kinda..dynamic. There's so many options that work well, but choosing the best (the options that give her a definite advantage on Marth) is a little harder and nuanced. By contrast, the Marth only has to know how to juggle. You'd probably be better off fine-tuning the Falco.
Sounds good, thanks. Honestly, I also don't want to screw up my Falco by getting used to Sheik's faster wavedash and stuff. I'll keep to Falco for now.
 
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