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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

Espi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 5, 2014
Messages
482
Location
Vancouver, BC
Anything I should know if I'm teaming with a Peach? I don't have any experience with Peach in teams, only Fox :/
 

SonuvaBeach

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 7, 2008
Messages
1,141
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Howell, MI
"If we get someone between us, both of us d-smashing on their shield is a viable option" -Armada when we teamed the first time

Peach is usually the aggressor in a sheik/peach team, so you'll want to position yourself behind her and be ready to bail her out if she needs it as well as hit any opponent back at her with fair/bair if she hits them at you.

When edgeguarding, I prefer to take the edge because I have much better options from the edge than peach does and she can hit them back off very effectively when I roll to cover the edge

Also Peach can save sheik in a variety of ways. Remind the peach that if you aren't going to make it back she can throw a turnip at you and save you. She can also float out and dair right next to the edge which allows you to recover. The peach also can easily cancel Sheik's lag of her up b with her dair if she's near.

Play to learn, focus on being a good support and having good awareness, and you'll have fun. Sheik/Peach is a very enjoyable and good team. Good luck!
 
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CrazyCupofJoe

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 29, 2014
Messages
71
What are you guys' opinions on counter picking characters like peach, falco, and puff to Stadium? I've had good results in the puff matchup there will the only downfall being that there is no top platform to run to. The falco match up, while I know he gets more room to laser, seems doable to me at least more so than dreamland and I don't know why. I have no experience in the peach match up though. Any other characters you would consider CPing to stadium or is FoD/Dreamland normally top pick?
 

JediLink

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
Messages
778
Location
QLD, Australia
What are you guys' opinions on counter picking characters like peach, falco, and puff to Stadium? I've had good results in the puff matchup there will the only downfall being that there is no top platform to run to. The falco match up, while I know he gets more room to laser, seems doable to me at least more so than dreamland and I don't know why. I have no experience in the peach match up though. Any other characters you would consider CPing to stadium or is FoD/Dreamland normally top pick?
Counterpicking to Stadium is mostly just to get those earlier kills from the low ceiling, so against floaties it work well enough. I'd still go for Yoshi's first though. Against Falco, it would probably favour him more than you, but hey, if it works, it works.
 

CrazyCupofJoe

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 29, 2014
Messages
71
I've been having some problems with the fox matchup recently. How can I stop them from literally just running at me, forcing me to shield or get comboed? It feels like shield grab would be the best bet but always gets beat out by l cancel shine.

If they try to shine spike me off stage, is there anyway to combat it if they come from above?

And finally, if I'm in shield and they are behind me I've just felt helpless because grab can't do anything and rolling would just get me punished. Would nair OoS be the best option? If they space just out of nair range, what should I do?
 
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Captain Faceroll

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
173
I've been having some problems with the fox matchup recently. How can I stop them from literally just running at me, forcing me to shield or get comboed? It feels like shield grab would be the best bet but always gets beat out by l cancel shine.

If they try to shine spike me off stage, is there anyway to combat it if they come from above?

And finally, if I'm in shield and they are behind me I've just felt helpless because grab can't do anything and rolling would just get me punished. Would nair OoS be the best option? If they space just out of nair range, what should I do?

If you know they are going to run at you, dashdance grab or wd back grab is probably your best option. You can also try a preemptive ftilt to hit them before they hit you, but that can be tricky timing. You can't shieldgrab between their aerial and shine if they time it correctly, but you can shieldgrab after their shine depending on what they do afterwards ^^

A lot of the times you're kinda boned here, but it depends on the situation. Generally, if you're getting shine spiked every time, that's probably because you're doing a very predictable early double jump. Think about what happens when you're off stage, do you try and jump fair him? If you do, he can easily wait for the fair and shine you. Try to fall down lower and then up b. If he goes to shine spike you no matter where you go, if you go low he'll miss, and you'll be able to get on the ledge or stage for free.

If they are behind you try wavedashing oos. It isn't laggy like a roll, and it can keep you in position to punish their follow up. Nair oos can hit, but it kinda depends on spacing. wd oos is probably your best bet :)
 

Sur Fartsalot

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
181
Location
The Round Table
I gather some videos where down-air might be useful in actual tourney matches but its situational.

a.) Tech chase off platform. (1:26-128).
Isai vs Husband
b.) Fake out ground attack KoreanDj vs Mew2king 1:40-144.
c.) KoreanDj vs Mew2king35 - 40.
d.) As a fake out move to peach that would try to spot dodge or shield grab you : 58 secs , 1:12 secs.

I can't find matches where sheik punishes peach block down smash out of shield with sh down air around mid to high percent.

err.. how do i delete this post.
You can't delete posts. You can erase everything and say "oops.....":joyful:
 

Sur Fartsalot

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 15, 2015
Messages
181
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The Round Table
Hi, I'm a bit new to playign sheik. So I was reading through some fox & sheik guides, and I read that some players who are learning fox give up and go to an easier player like sheik. I am learning how to play competitively with fox and sheik (already good with my marth). I find that it is extremely easy to combo with sheik. Because sheik is easier to pick up and learn at an intermediate level, is there going to be a very steep learning curve eventually to progress to super awesome level, or is do you just get better as you get more experience?
 

SacaSuMoto

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 9, 2012
Messages
285
Location
Santa Barbara, Ca
Hi, I'm a bit new to playign sheik. So I was reading through some fox & sheik guides, and I read that some players who are learning fox give up and go to an easier player like sheik. I am learning how to play competitively with fox and sheik (already good with my marth). I find that it is extremely easy to combo with sheik. Because sheik is easier to pick up and learn at an intermediate level, is there going to be a very steep learning curve eventually to progress to super awesome level, or is do you just get better as you get more experience?
IMO sheik gets harder for a # of reasons as you move into the more advanced level.

You didn't need a lot of tricks to beat up scrubs. A lot of the time when low-level sheiks beat people near their level it is because the other player is messing up more often. Sheiks don't need that much tech skill, they recognize that its easier to wait for the opponent to mess up. Therefore, whatever strategy the opponent comes up with, more or less, doesn't work because they are not good enough to be consistent with it.

Once you get to higher levels, the opponents won't mess up as often. This ends up with a lot of mid-level sheiks looking like low-level players, because they're throwing outs moves and throwing out grabs in the hopes of landing a stray hit and that the opponent messes up. So, when a good player, that can hard bait all of their f-tilts and dash attacks, comes along they will get punished mercilessly. The lack of experience on the sheiks part with this kind of play causes them to get flustered and lose.

The changes a mid-level/low-level sheik needs to make in order to make themselves rise a level or two are the following:
1) Self-Control. You won't get anything for free anymore. Which means that you will often have to run into an opponent -> crouch or shield and wait for the opponent to commit to an action. Instead of trying to dash attack very early. Self-control will also involve not throwing out an f-tilt until you are 90% sure it will hit, same with a grab, and trying to shield grab.

2) Nair OOS, your alternative to shield grab. Fox/Falco shield pressure is annoying. Nair OOS when they shine the shield beats out most things, except for like shine-nair or multi-shine.

3) Movement. You will have to rely more on moving around your opponent, stage, or ledge to bait out your opponent. Running away is usually the best way to bait out an early attack or badly spaced one, you can rest assured knowing that they will do the same to you to bait out your dash attacks.

4) Delay of moves. With self-control, you will learn to delay grabs and other moves to freeze your opponent as much as possible. Ex. Fair-Tilt is a sheik bread and butter shield pressure string. At the low-level you try to make your Fair-ftilt as fast as possible. But decent players are used to it and know to just block until the f-tilt comes out. So you get punished for it once, next time you Fair their shield, wait a couple moments, make a mental note of when they like to escape from being awkwardly in sheild. then the next time you f-tilt them at that timing. With this kind of mentality you can begin to add mix-ups to your moves. Fair-grab, fair-xmove. And just putting delays on grabs, dash attacks in general by combining run->crouch or just walking towards them.

4) Awareness of CCing. Both for your sheik and your opponent's character. You will notice the crap getting beat out of you by spacies at low%s and you're trying to jab, fair, f-tilt them.

5) Consistent Edgeguarding. Watch m2k.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg-5V3ru2ec

Then to actually make it into being a true top level sheik you need to have:
an amazing neutral game, an amazing punish game.

and this is where the extremely high learning curve begins
 
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Comet7

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would it be possible to wobble with sheik's chain in doubles?

what's the frame advantage for her aerials on shield if used as late as possible?
 
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Rosy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
90
Location
Agoura Hills, California
I need some real advice. I have just started using smash DI and ASDI in my game. I play a fox who always finishes off his kills with shine>waveshine>up smash and I want to know the best possible inputs to not only get out of the shine, but then to follow up so I dont get killed or shined again. Its really frustrating and I need serious help on the ways to avoid getting constantly shined.

The second help I need is how to ASDI dairs (mostly with fox) so he cant follow up with the shine. I know this has been talked about constantly but I just want to be able to read it specifically for this MU.
 

Captain Faceroll

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
173
I need some real advice. I have just started using smash DI and ASDI in my game. I play a fox who always finishes off his kills with shine>waveshine>up smash and I want to know the best possible inputs to not only get out of the shine, but then to follow up so I dont get killed or shined again. Its really frustrating and I need serious help on the ways to avoid getting constantly shined.

The second help I need is how to ASDI dairs (mostly with fox) so he cant follow up with the shine. I know this has been talked about constantly but I just want to be able to read it specifically for this MU.
di/sdi/asdi the drill and shine away. If they have really strong wavedash angles and timings overall, this combo can be unavoidable. You can only make it really hard for them to get consistently, but you can't make it impossible. Best of luck ^^
 

victinivcreate1

Smash Lord
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I'm a Fox/Falco main, and one of my struggle matchups is Sheik (IDK how to DI/SDI some of her moves). So I come asking Smah DI based questions
1. How should I SDI her down smash
2. Her up tilt
3. Her Fsmash
 

SonuvaBeach

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 7, 2008
Messages
1,141
Location
Howell, MI
We're sheiks, we aren't eager to help Fox's beat us :p

D-smash at low percents can be CC'd and wavedash --> shine --> whatever as a punish. At mid-high percents DI according to where you are on stage and the percent.

Uptilt can be shield grabbed, waveshine out of shield, or shield dropped through if you're on a platform. But the safest route when you're above her is to just get out with a full hop or something and not challenge in

Her fsmash is terrible. CC it
 

CrazyCupofJoe

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 29, 2014
Messages
71
I'm a Fox/Falco main, and one of my struggle matchups is Sheik (IDK how to DI/SDI some of her moves). So I come asking Smah DI based questions
1. How should I SDI her down smash
2. Her up tilt
3. Her Fsmash
1. Just CC until high percents
2. SDI down if you are above her when you get hit, you fall quite quickly in between hits so you could SDI away and probably tech the ground to get out faster but im not to sure I dont play fox.
3. Yeah as Sonuva said Fsmash is garbage and not worth using by most sheiks, if you do get it it has such low knockback and so much time between hits you can just shine.
 

EddyBearr

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
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Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Is there any way to make shield-drop fair into f-tilt at lower percents a true combo? I saw Shroomed do it in a video, but I'm not sure if it's a legitimate combo or not.

Also, does anyone know on what frame up-b off an edge (immediate poof) gives out hitboxes?
 
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CrazyCupofJoe

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 29, 2014
Messages
71
Quick question, what is Sheik's neutral game?
As with all characters, the neutral game is when neither you or your opponent are in the middle of a combo or edgehog/guard. So essentially both characters are on stage but not actually committing to anything. The whole point of this is to draw in your opponent and punish them for overextending/using a laggy move or something of the sort.

As for sheik, she has semi-average neutral game because her movement as far as wavedash and dashdance aren't that strong and don't cover as much space/options as say Marth or Fox's. Sheik is almost never going to want to approach due to her lack of quick disjointed and invulnerable moves. Anyway what sheik is going to want to do a lot in the neutral is use Needles to force her opponents to come to her. Sheik's needles are an amazing tool as they deal a good amount of damage, have hitstun and can be fired down upon opponents making them useful as a camping tool from platforms. So yeah use needles a lot. Other than that you can try to dashdance around or use platform movement to entice your opponent to approach you and whiff a move then punish them for any laggy move they throw out since Sheik has such a good punish game with her killer grabs and tilts.

So yeah... Don't approach, use needles, and bait your opponent then capitalize on their mistakes.
 

Salevits

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 9, 2008
Messages
90
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Finland
What are the best follow ups against falcon when he misses a tech after a d-throw. (after 15%ish when jab becomes kinda bad imo) Preferably things you can do on reaction.
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
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Feb 9, 2014
Messages
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CrazyCupofJoe

Smash Cadet
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May 29, 2014
Messages
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Regrab maybe? Magus explains here that you can just react to the getup actions when the falcon misses the tech. I think I have seen Tope do it at least. http://smashboards.com/threads/is-there-a-way-out-of-sheiks-tech-chase.190936/#post-5437565
Cant grab if hes on the ground. I would say if he is just in the animation of standing up, Charge Usmash. Dash attack, ftilt, or you can Dair to pop him up and extend the combo if he misses a tech. I saw a good gfy of KirbyKaze using Dair to really extend his combo against lucky. If I find it ill post it here.

Here is the gfy I was talking about. You see him use Dair when he is on the top platform and misses the tech as well as multiple other times but its not after a missed tech. You can also see in the beginning the Upsmash I was talking about.
 
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Salevits

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 9, 2008
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Finland
Hmm, now I became very interested in what is the real % gap (with falco,fox and falcon) where it's too high% for jab but too low% for dash attack..
 

Jackson

Smash Lord
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Feb 4, 2014
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Alexandria, Virginia
After jab reset percentages on fast fallers, when it doesn't reset them, what should i use to continue the tech chase? Preferably a move i can use on reaction.
 

CrazyCupofJoe

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 29, 2014
Messages
71
You can shieldgrab, Usmash OoS, or CC get up attack. You can just grab get up shine if you are fast enough. You can boost grab roll away. As far as resetting them above jab reset... Needle reset (?) like SH needle might work, and as I said in a previous post you can Dair a missed tech and pop them up for an extended combo.
 

Jackson

Smash Lord
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Feb 4, 2014
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You can shieldgrab, Usmash OoS, or CC get up attack. You can just grab get up shine if you are fast enough. You can boost grab roll away. As far as resetting them above jab reset... Needle reset (?) like SH needle might work, and as I said in a previous post you can Dair a missed tech and pop them up for an extended combo.
Good stuff, thank you. I also think I need to change my mindset to not always look for regrabs and instead try to convert the tech chase into an edgeguard.
 

Wow_Ben

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
6
Location
Evansville
Sheiks chain grab is super optimal and powerful. As we have seen in these past couple months players like Kira have gotten huge millage off the chain grab. I have been watching M2K sheik dittos since Ive started playing melee last year and I'm committed to doing normal punishes without the chain grab. So my question is do you guys opt for chain grabs in the sheik ditto or do you try to do tech chase/followups.
 

Captain Faceroll

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
173
So my question is do you guys opt for chain grabs in the sheik ditto or do you try to do tech chase/followups.
Chain grab no matter what. It gives you such an advantage against people who don't do it normally it's almost ridiculous. If you have the cg practiced, and they don't, it's essentially a free win. It gets them on tilt, and many people try to do the chaingrab in response, but since they haven't practiced it they drop it and you don't.

If they have practiced it, it's whatever, since you just need to outplay them like a regular match anyway.

I play with Kira a decent amount, and he chaingrabs no matter what, so I need to in response or else I would just get demolished. (I get demolished anyway, but that's because he's way better <3)

I think it's silly that people don't chaingrab, and they look down on it because they're bad/salty/noobs. KK came up to fly and me after his loss to Kira and he said something that's the epitome of my response to people who opt to not chaingrab. "The ditto without the chaingrab doesn't exist, it's just something we made up."
 
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Jackson

Smash Lord
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Alexandria, Virginia
I hear that you need to input L or R exactly 3 frames after dash attacking to get the best boost grab. Does anyone have any tips for attaining this optimal timing?
 

Captain Faceroll

Smash Apprentice
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Dec 12, 2013
Messages
173
Apparently if you practice with Falco, you only hear his dash attack sound if you get the 3 frame boost grab. You can practice the timing like that with falco, because that'll be the same exact timing.
 

CrazyCupofJoe

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 29, 2014
Messages
71
I hear that you need to input L or R exactly 3 frames after dash attacking to get the best boost grab. Does anyone have any tips for attaining this optimal timing?
Might be a dumb question, but for boost grab don't you need to hit Z not L or R? The ssbwiki says "To perform the boost grab, the player must first dash. Then, press the attack button while dashing to perform a dash attack, then press the grab button immediately within the first frame to grab". We know that you can do it three frames after you attack but still, why do L and R work?
 
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tauKhan

Smash Lord
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Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,349
@ CrazyCupofJoe CrazyCupofJoe Z is basically light press R/L + A. Boost grabbing actually only needs you to shield after dash attack, the A part of Z is not necessary after dash attack. The reason for the existence of the boost grab is probably to make L/R + A grabbing easier.
 
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