Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Cervidae]

Uair and Nair both cover Peach above her; you definitely don't want to be there. Directly challenging her float isn't totally awful if you don't anticipate her to nair you since your fair is much faster than hers, but once she starts to catch on nair becomes too risky to try and beat. If she floats low enough you could try to contest with a ftilt but those tend to just trade with her dairs or fairs if she times them correctly. Being behind isn't very good either since her bair will always trade or beat your moves; I think it's one of her best tools in the match up. Honestly I'd just get on a platform and try to interrupt her float with needles or just wait for her float to end. If you watch carefully when she throws out her aerials you can anticipate whether you can punish her landing even if she attempts to float cancel. I haven't look at much frame data for float canceled fairs from Peach, but I wouldn't be surprised if a perfectly timed one would have an extremely small window of opportunity to punish before she can act, so be careful of that.

 

[ChivalRuse]

@fusion: From my limited experience in the matchup, you want to be under her and a little bit to the side of her. That way you can make her fear a potential bair or nair into her float. If she lands with a bad aerial, oftentimes you can react with a grab if you properly judge the spacing. By the way, I've been playing with Taylor Mulloy a lot recently. He said that he knew you.

 

[EddyBearr]

It took a while, but after watching Plup's Sheik vs Hbox, I've been won over that the Sheik-Puff matchup is about even.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CfelJsewpA

 

[Leirkov]

What is a good application of AC Fair in terms of using it to control space near the ledge against a Fox?

I struggle when having center stage to really press the advantage. I can time the AC on shield but I don't really know how to get a strict advantage out of this. I usually flub, get shined OoS (from bad spacing) or just don't understand how I'm winning an exchange.

 

[BTmoney]

Try implementing dash/stand -> short hop backwards (you want to get the backflip animation) -> fair

It gives you a lot of time to react to things and it's very safe a lot of the time. Then you can start doing mix ups like crossing up with a nair instead, variable timing, tomahawking/empty jumping, fair on shield mixups and all that good stuff

You really don't want to be jumping forward in neutral and fair'ing. You really can barely do that in this game period with any char

 

[BigRomulus]

Hey, so I've been playing ssbm for about a week and half. I've got my wave dashing and dash dancing down, and as far as combos go I recently made the switch from falco main, to sheik main. I did this because I saw the potential of sheik in certain areas of game play, and because I'm tried if watching all these fox vs falco match up's with similar (some much different and play style can be very different I understand this) strategie and abilitys. So here's my problem, I had 2 friends that were really into it and we would train hard, very hard, like 3 monsters untill 7:00 AM hard. Not just playing, but research on hit boxes and especially practicing certain mechanics (ie wavedashing). But these to friends went on a school sponsored trip to Peru, and no I'm stuck being board against CP Lvl 9's non stop. So I know of a few places that have melee meet ups and stuff but none within reasonable walking distance. Are there any other ways that I could perhaps find other smashers in my area online? Let me know. Thanks- BigRomulus

 

[Scroll]

Hey, so I've been playing ssbm for about a week and half. I've got my wave dashing and dash dancing down, and as far as combos go I recently made the switch from falco main, to sheik main. I did this because I saw the potential of sheik in certain areas of game play, and because I'm tried if watching all these fox vs falco match up's with similar (some much different and play style can be very different I understand this) strategie and abilitys. So here's my problem, I had 2 friends that were really into it and we would train hard, very hard, like 3 monsters untill 7:00 AM hard. Not just playing, but research on hit boxes and especially practicing certain mechanics (ie wavedashing). But these to friends went on a school sponsored trip to Peru, and no I'm stuck being board against CP Lvl 9's non stop. So I know of a few places that have melee meet ups and stuff but none within reasonable walking distance. Are there any other ways that I could perhaps find other smashers in my area online? Let me know. Thanks- BigRomulus

You sound just like me! :D
Welcome aboard!
First of all. Fighting lvl 9 CPUs can be a challenge and might be fun at first, but it's not beneficial to train against them. Rather Fight the lvl 1 - and if you dont have it yet, try and look in the 20XX hack pack for training.
As for a local scene I can't help you but hopefully someone from your area spots you here and responds.
Usually though there are facebook groups for areas. You might have luck searching on there

 

[Jackson]

Ok, I pretty much know which characters Sheik can chaingrab, but I'm craving more information. Can someone give me exact percents on when the chaingrab works on Sheik, Ganon, Roy, and Pikachu?

 

[CommonerCoffee]

Trying to better understand Sheik's shield pressure. What are Sheik's options after an aerial on block? For example, what would you do if you hit a poorly spaced AC fair, nair, or bair on shield? Would you just eat a grab or a shine or something or are there options out of those? Basically what do you do if your aerial gets blocked?

I've seen top players do AC Fair -> Jab and repeat but would that only work if the Fair is spaced well?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Just space it well. You can even land behind their shield and rule out the grab option. U-tilting from behind the opponent's shield is really good pressure (if the second hit of utilt connects on their shield you are completely safe).

 

[Raize]

This might be a dumb question but: Why is Sheik's side special not used much by professionals? I can use it to edgeguard Space Animals easily.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Usually other options like needles, down-smash or ledgehopped aerials are preferred. But the chain can work in some circumstances.

 

[ZSel]

Hello there,
So I'll go at my first tournament this week end and I know a good luigi player will be there.
Having zero experience in this match up (and in tournament in general x) ) Do you have any tips against luigi ? (It'll be played in PAL)

I don't really know if I can go agressiv vs Lugi or just being safe and throwing needles / spaced bair. I don't know aswell if grab can lead into any good follow up ?
And what would be the most efficient way to edgeguard him ? Those kind of stuff I'd like to know. Plus if you have any others adivces I'd gladly take them ^^

 

[ChivalRuse]

Needles and bair are great for edgeguarding him. Downthrow doesn't lead to direct combos in PAL, so it might be more advisable to go for u-throw to get him in a bad position. The main thing to watch out for is his crouch cancel downsmash (don't throw out tilts recklessly) and his nair coming down (don't ever jump up into it; instead, bait it out and grab his landing or space a bair against it).

 

[ZSel]

Alright I'll take note of that thank you =)

 

[Scroll]

please study his hitbox/trajectory data.
For example his uptilt sends you behind him - so you need to hold towards and down to combo DI that.
Dsmash sends you vertically so you can hold either horizontal direction.
Those are some of his go-to moves so I guess a rule of thumb is to DI into him when getting comboed. There is more to it than that, but that's what I could come up with for now.
GL

 

[ChivalRuse]

Pretty much DI his uthrow and d-throw behind him.

 

[ZSel]

Okok so after a upthrow by example should I try to do a spaced bair after a DI behind him or play it safe and just put myself back to a neutral position ?
Would have never expected to DI into him when getting combo'd will try that.
Thanks guys

 

[ChivalRuse]

Edit: Misunderstood your question.

After Luigi uthrows you if you get the DI behind him, just try to reset to neutral. You might be able to bair but it depends on the trajectory. Just try to find the best option for the situation based on reaction.

 

[SacaSuMoto]

I wish to see more stuff like this on the boards:
http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-strategy-qna.129276/page-346#post-18192608

http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-strategy-qna.129276/page-347#post-18234341

Where we can take a snapshot or a gif of a situation and discuss or throw out ideas on what we could do. We could find something "optimal" but really i don't care about finding what is optimal with such and such frames of leniency. What would be best on my mind is if people discuss their own ideas, that way others can see something they might have not thought of, or maybe someone might say that instead of going for such and such they can do this and this in order to try and create a completely new situation. idk. The point is to have something visual we can use in order to more tangibly discuss situations.

For example, KK vs Sfat on FoD there was a back throw that KK did and then KK went to grab the ledge.

http://www.twitch.tv/evenmatchupgaming/v/6956502
8:54:40


I think KK was trying to cover a fast side-b and that's why he immediately jumps once he saw that it wasn't a side+b and tries to cover too much with the jump from the ledge.

I don't think that the backthrow -> wd off grab ledge was a bad idea.. since side-b is easy to punish this way.
However, while watching this on the stream i felt that I would've done something like:
back throw -> turn around
and then from here i would assess the situation
if i see a bad jump/upb -> standing needle
if i see a forward jump + upb -> jump out fair
if i see a backwards jump + upb -> be closeish to the ledge, because you might be able to get an ftilt fair on a high angle
or be ready to shield if the upb goes towards you
if i see a forwards jump + upb -> either back off or if you're close to ledge and can get some momentum then go out for the fair (when they're at a decent %)
if i see a high sideb -> nair or shield depends on the reaction
if i see an upb towards the ledge -> if im close to the ledge, i will back off and give him enough room to not ledgedash up+b and try to cover the platform escapes
if im already far from the ledge, i would try to needle the upb towards ledge
uhm im probably missing some more stuff

I really really think KK had the right idea, he was getting a lot from this edgeguard. What was the miscalculation? Was it %, sfat's DI, sfat's decision to jump back upb, did KK jump too early?

The reason I mention using the turn around and basically letting fox get the ledge is because sometimes i don't feel comfortable on my edgeguarding or i mess up.. so as my sort of fall back/ back up plan is to give foxes some room to breath, I back off from the ledge, and instead now concentrate on punishing them for trying to get back on stage from the ledge.

KK tried to fix the edgeguard with an accidental(?) upair which lead to him getting upsmashed
If KK had stopped trying to force the edgeguard he might've not messed up as hard and would've been able to still get some favorable footing (but hindsight is 20/20).

To me, this is a reminder of how as we try to "optimize" our game and our decisions that we must able factor in the human element of us messing up techskill, an edgeguard, a punish, etc and that we must also have some sort of idea already of how we will tackle our own mistakes. It is more natural for us to have an idea of how to punish our opponent for these mistakes. Instead of complicating a situation further, a much better cause could be to try and simplify the solution to a situation even if it means that there will be a low reward. A motto of "simple is safe" is good to keep in mind.

edit: noob points if you try to click play

edit: lol, looks familiar? https://youtu.be/rvfZxWiyDLo?t=6m53s

 

[~Fusion~]

I may or may not have tried to play that video...

The only thing Im not sure you covered is instant or nearly instant side B, they might have to double jump before they side B which as you said you could cover with needle. One problem that I have is sometimes standing needle is too high and they are just below it and they end up getting the ledge. Aside from maybe grabbing ledge, how can I cover a sweetspot Side B below needle height?

 

[SacaSuMoto]

you can jump and throw the 45 angle needle to try and catch them.. however this is difficult (it's hard but not impossible, after the needle hits you can try to grab the ledge and bair forever or you can fall off nair, fall off nair to trade with upb is works best when they're at mid-high %)

I am not even sure now if a needle will hit a perfectly sweetspotted side-b or a sweetspotted shortened at this point. lol...

You can hit a non-sweet spot side-b with a dsmash or even f-tilt, but shortening the side-b is annoying because they can still escape your hitboxes. The point is that when a good fox player can consistently sweet-spot side-b it is pretty hard to cover. If you dsmash/needle and miss, then they can invi ledge dash to punish you....

So if they're the kind of fox that will do that, then i will more likely back off. I will punish them for their need to get back on stage from the ledge.

Oh and high side-bs (above the needle height) you cover with nair or fair (fair is super hard to get). Nair will put them off stage, but at low %s they might grab the ledge right away because of the low knockback or they might be able to get a fast side-b to the ledge.

Nowadays the sheiks are trying to get more % on the fox with regrabs before deciding to start an edgeguard in order to have a higher chance of success.


edit: there are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many variations on these situations that i've mentioned in the last two posts.. so take what i've said as a rough, napkin sketch guideline where you build on it on your own.

 

[Sempai]

you can jump and throw the 45 angle needle to try and catch them.. however this is difficult (it's hard but not impossible, after the needle hits you can try to grab the ledge and bair forever or you can fall off nair, fall off nair to trade with upb is works best when they're at mid-high %)

I am not even sure now if a needle will hit a perfectly sweetspotted side-b or a sweetspotted shortened at this point. lol...

You can hit a non-sweet spot side-b with a dsmash or even f-tilt, but shortening the side-b is annoying because they can still escape your hitboxes. The point is that when a good fox player can consistently sweet-spot side-b it is pretty hard to cover. If you dsmash/needle and miss, then they can invi ledge dash to punish you....

So if they're the kind of fox that will do that, then i will more likely back off. I will punish them for their need to get back on stage from the ledge.

Oh and high side-bs (above the needle height) you cover with nair or fair (fair is super hard to get). Nair will put them off stage, but at low %s they might grab the ledge right away because of the low knockback or they might be able to get a fast side-b to the ledge.

Nowadays the sheiks are trying to get more % on the fox with regrabs before deciding to start an edgeguard in order to have a higher chance of success.


edit: there are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many variations on these situations that i've mentioned in the last two posts.. so take what i've said as a rough, napkin sketch guideline where you build on it on your own.

Sad day right? I cant just spam run off rising Nair and catch illusion every time, whats this world coming tooooooooo

 

[Xatu]

Im really having trouble with the run from stage to edge then upb -> edgehog. I always end up upb-ing up.. what am i doing wrong?

Anyone who struggles with this can practice on the fin of Corneria if they prefer not to fall off a ledge when they mess it up.
When doing the vanish cancel edgehog, remember that you're just tapping UpB quickly, and doing it when you're almost all the way off the ledge. Then hold the analog stick directly left/right back to the stage and you will grab ledge.

 

[~Fusion~]

I don't know if most of you guys saw this but it's pretty basic sheik neutral game stuff by Kira: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bq3UuQONpDg

 

[Espi]

what is the optimal DI out of Ganons chaingrab and at what %'s?

 

[Sweet™]

There isn't really any. At like 80% you can DJ out.

Any good Ganon won't let that happen. He'll dthrow fair/bair before you get to that point.

 

[Espi]

I guess it just boils down to who gets the grab. Which means Sheik 90% of the time haha

 

[ChivalRuse]

How do I fight Puff in this matchup? I literally can't find an answer to her spaced sh bair. I have been relying on wavedashing out of shield for maneuvering, but I feel like I can't make any progress in the match by doing that. I can't ever get her a position where she can be hit easily, and needles do literally next to nothing to her.

It's like a matchup where you just get beaten over a long period of time.

 

[~Fusion~]

I've never played a top level puff but have played a few around my skill level... All I can say is Nair OoS seems super good in this matchup. At least in my experience because most puffs are either jumping around and waiting for me to roll/shield grab and they are looking to rest punish nair OoS seems to work for me. Never try to dash attack if they have the option to crouch cancel and rest you. Don't try to follow up on a lot of chips just get the hit and reset to neutral or you might become the one getting comboed. I like to SH needle if they are recovering low and have to use jumps to rise up to the ledge. If they are pounding up against a wall of a stage, like Yoshi's or FoD, to stall/gain very little height you can run off and back air hoping the stage spike them if they don't see it coming.

I like to dtilt to fair puff around 90% because Ftilt sends them too high to get comboed. SH Bair is also another good tool in the "neutral" against puff because they are always throwing out aerials. As far as grabs go, I like to Dthrow (duh) then hit them with a fair if they DI in front or a Nair if they do no DI or DI behind. That's pretty much how I play the match up.

 

[SacaSuMoto]

A general rule of thumb when I'm playing against a floaty I will approach the game as if i'm playing against a luigi. Meaning that I will not go for extended combos, I will be more aware about their grounded options, and I will try not to jump as much. If i'm on a stage with good platforms, I will maneuver around with them. It is hard for puff to reach the top platforms, if she tries to get there then she will most likely be closer to one edge of the platform. Your goal in these situations are to not get caught out of your movement, to either catch her under you with a needle -> fair or just a fair (you can use bairs too, but bairs are better when you're going up instead of going down), or you completely take the ground to get under her.
Take what you can get and be done with it, you trying to be greedy leads to you losing in the long run.

The hardest part about fighting puff is when she is diagonally above and infront of you and when she's crouching infront of you. For her to be diagonally above you she will have to either full jump or short-hop to double jump (im talking about her jumping from the ground). This is how she mixes up her options a lot of the times. The short-hops in front of you are scary because she can linger with her moves to stop your run-in approaches. the diagonally above you options are there to catch your jump approaches. When she is crouching infront of you it is really scary to fight her because she can get under your fairs, your needles, and even your ftilts. You dont want to be rested out of her crouch and when you're at high %s she will want to fsmash.

You can battle ccing (or at least try to) by using falling nairs and extremely late needles. Late fairs are dangerous. Your goal is get her out of CC %s. She can't CC a fresh dash attk starting at 59%(f-tilt at 75%, fair at 70%) and that's how you will start to combat her CC at those %s, get the dash attks that will put you behind her. Puffs in general don't shield too much, if she starts shielding a lot that's when you start going for fairs and go for shield pokes. Her CC is strong but not that strong once you get her out of those %s, you can play a keep away game with her so it is easier to get her to high %s.

To battle her aerial game for example in a stage like FD, jumping too much will leave you open to a lot of bairs and potential combos to bad positioning, so you can be extremely safe by using your own bairs to fight her aerial stuff. You can can also do a lot of run-in shield to catch her with miss-spaced aerials for you to punish. The short-hop aerials are harder to fight on FD, but if they like to be in the air then that means that you can catch some % with your own needles or a simple aerial. If they like to short-hop, you full jump. If they like to full-jump then you stay grounded or use rising aerials. The trick is initialize your full-jumps further away than her jump forward max range bair, that away you can get in position even if he tries to go in and your short-hops (to counter her full-jumps) when you are below her as you can get (past the angle of her diagonal drift down).

Don't go for grabs or jabs.
Jabs are only good when you hit her in the air and she's at kill %s
Grabs, uhm.. i can tell you that you can grab her out of some of her rolls... but don't blame if you get rested.

This is a match-up where you have to be patient, get a hit every now and then, and eventually kill her. The kill will come, just wait for it.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah, I'm realizing more and more that grabbing isn't worth it. I think I just need to up my aerial game and not be afraid to lame it out and not approach in unfavorable positions.

 

[Espi]

Could I have some specific information on edgeguarding firefox from below the ledge with downsmash? When should I use it? All I know is the timing is pretty strict. I suppose that I should only use it when I can't grab the ledge fast enough, but can't I just needle? What if they do a sweet spot, does downsmash have hitboxes that hit below the ledge?

 

[Sempai]

Could I have some specific information on edgeguarding firefox from below the ledge with downsmash? When should I use it? All I know is the timing is pretty strict. I suppose that I should only use it when I can't grab the ledge fast enough, but can't I just needle? What if they do a sweet spot, does downsmash have hitboxes that hit below the ledge?

Dsmash comes out with frame 5 with invincibility on the legs, so you need good timing, but dont be teetering over the edge or you will get burned. Downsmash as an edge guard is better against cfalcon and ganon recovery. Whats better is, falling needles (which cancel when you land) into turn around WD back onto ledge.

From this position, just drop down and do rising bairs until they cant come back. Dont be afraid to go a little low to hit them with the strong part of Bair, as long as they are past say 30%

Again, downsmash doesnt work if they are perfect, but aerial needles literally but a hit box between them and the ledge if timed correctly.

 

[Locke426]

In what situations is wavedash oos into grab/attack better than just dashing into a grab/attack? The example I'm thinking of is when I'm facing a Marth who f-smashes my shield. I'm told that, as long as it's not a tipper hit, I can wavedash oos into grab or whatever. I'm working on my wavedash oos but, so far, I haven't encountered any problem just dashing into a jump cancelled grab after the f-smash hits my shield. Is wavedash oos faster than dashing and required for moves that have less lag than Marth f-smash?

 

[Eonn]

Do I have any options besides tech chasing fast fallers at low percents? My tech chases are far from perfect (especially over netplay) but fairs, tilts, etc just get punished even when I hit them (mainly fox/falco).

 

[Jackson]

Do I have any options besides tech chasing fast fallers at low percents? My tech chases are far from perfect (especially over netplay) but fairs, tilts, etc just get punished even when I hit them (mainly fox/falco).

Same dude, Im looking for an answer to this as well.

 

[Sempai]

In what situations is wavedash oos into grab/attack better than just dashing into a grab/attack? The example I'm thinking of is when I'm facing a Marth who f-smashes my shield. I'm told that, as long as it's not a tipper hit, I can wavedash oos into grab or whatever. I'm working on my wavedash oos but, so far, I haven't encountered any problem just dashing into a jump cancelled grab after the f-smash hits my shield. Is wavedash oos faster than dashing and required for moves that have less lag than Marth f-smash?

Dashing into an attack? You mean like sheild, get hit, let go of sheild then attack? That takes a lot of time. WD OOS only has 10 frames of lag [after hitstun] and will be your fastest option. Heres something I remember reading a long time ago, and it rlly has proven true and has stuck with me.

WD OOS = Master Race.

↑
Do I have any options besides tech chasing fast fallers at low percents? My tech chases are far from perfect (especially over netplay) but fairs, tilts, etc just get punished even when I hit them (mainly fox/falco).
Click to expand...
Same dude, Im looking for an answer to this as well.

You have options, but nothing that leads into a sure followup, tech chase grab is the only reliable follow up since our other moves dont have enough hitstun/dont put them into tumble. I mean you could space fair, but then what? You can grab afterward but its not a true combo, although if you are quick it does work a lot.
There really is no option for shiek to safely build % on fastfallers other than: Spaced Fair/Bair, needles and the ever important tech chase grab.

 

[~Fusion~]

Do I have any options besides tech chasing fast fallers at low percents? My tech chases are far from perfect (especially over netplay) but fairs, tilts, etc just get punished even when I hit them (mainly fox/falco).

Yeah tech chasing will always be the best choice since you can tech chase up to ridiculous percents when done correctly. However you can cover DI in/no DI tech in place with an up tilt to regrab assuming they dont SDI out of the up tilt. If they miss tech/tech in place you can up smash but if they catch onto this falco (idk about fox) and buffer spot dodge and dodge the up smash completely. If they tech away you can dash attack but if they crouch cancel your dash attack, they can just shine or grab you for free.

So yeah...
DI in tech in place = Up tilt regrab
No DI no tech/tech in place = Up smash
Tech roll = Dash attack

Those are the basic flowchart that I use if you cant tech chase but most of the options have easy ways to get out of so its always better to regrab when possible.

 

[Sempai]

Yeah tech chasing will always be the best choice since you can tech chase up to ridiculous percents when done correctly. However you can cover DI in/no DI tech in place with an up tilt to regrab assuming they dont SDI out of the up tilt. If they miss tech/tech in place you can up smash but if they catch onto this falco (idk about fox) and buffer spot dodge and dodge the up smash completely. If they tech away you can dash attack but if they crouch cancel your dash attack, they can just shine or grab you for free.

So yeah...
DI in tech in place = Up tilt regrab
No DI no tech/tech in place = Up smash
Tech roll = Dash attack

Those are the basic flowchart that I use if you cant tech chase but most of the options have easy ways to get out of so its always better to regrab when possible.

They can CC/SDI the uptilt at low percents and shine out
If you try to usmash tech in place itll be too slow and they can shine out, or you have to completely guess the tech
Dash attack is used at higher %s starting around 35-40

Just regrab until 40,
then dash attack the tech rolls, ftilt the tech in place.