Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[EddyBearr]

I've been having trouble against auto-cancel falco back-airs while I'm on the ledge, and I know I need to work on my ledge-dashes.

If I want to find a good balance of actionable invincibility frames, safety, and consistency; have it work on all the stages about the same; and still retain the ability to do it out of both shino stall and drop-down regrab consistently, then which kind of ledgedash inputs should I be making and how should I be practicing it?

Another player in my region was telling me there's a Sheik ledge-dash "option-select" (if the opponent is the ledge/yourself) where, by holding in then rolling down or something, you can double-jump and ledge-dash perfectly with the alternative being.. either a normal get-up or a roll. Is this the truth?

 

[cisyphus]

I'm losing / have lost all desire to play Sheik. How do y'all freshen this character up and make it fun to play again? Or should I just keep playing Samus and c'est la vie?

 

[SacaSuMoto]

I've been having trouble against auto-cancel falco back-airs while I'm on the ledge, and I know I need to work on my ledge-dashes.

If I want to find a good balance of actionable invincibility frames, safety, and consistency; have it work on all the stages about the same; and still retain the ability to do it out of both shino stall and drop-down regrab consistently, then which kind of ledgedash inputs should I be making and how should I be practicing it?

Another player in my region was telling me there's a Sheik ledge-dash "option-select" (if the opponent is the ledge/yourself) where, by holding in then rolling down or something, you can double-jump and ledge-dash perfectly with the alternative being.. either a normal get-up or a roll. Is this the truth?

Don't rely on the sheik ledgedash to beat out moves like Falco's AC Bair. Sheik's ledgedash doesn't make f-tilt or something like that 100% safe. It's too risky at high %s
-Shino-stall so they keep their distance with those bairs, that should give you some room to do a getup from the ledge or a super tiny ledgedash or drop from the ledge and jump towards the stage
- if you want to try the ledge dash, do it to a run past them (maybe Dsmash infront of them).
- if get onto the stage, you can try to challenge the bairs by shielding.. they will probably land and uptilt or shine. If they do a shine, do a nair OOS. If they uptilt, that's harder to deal with, but the uptilt should push them away too, giving you more room to wavedash back OOS. If you can wavedash back OOS, maybe you can get an ftilt.
It is so hard to directly challenge AC Bair to uptilt (especially from the air), so it's best to create an entirely new situation altogether.

I'm losing / have lost all desire to play Sheik. How do y'all freshen this character up and make it fun to play again? Or should I just keep playing Samus and c'est la vie?

The times I feel like i'm on a slump for the game or for sheik.. it is mainly because I feel like an aspect of my game is really bad.. ie techskill, neutral game, punish game, movement... etc
The things that refresh my motivation is watching some sheik videos (especially those that I haven't seen much of) and finding something unique that they do and try to work on that for the next couple months or so. Even though I may still get bopped in tourney, I feel like I am improving because I may have a goal in mind.
I recommend watching:
Lucien vs Lucky at Good****german
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7QoolsTvho

Flash vs Shuta
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo3yQ2Q3BcM

Kirbykaze vs Westballz Rule 6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ey7wv-71Zw

Find something that makes you go "wow, that was really good" and make a mental or physical note about it, explaining it to yourself, for you to try or think about later.

 

[EddyBearr]

Don't rely on the sheik ledgedash to beat out moves like Falco's AC Bair. Sheik's ledgedash doesn't make f-tilt or something like that 100% safe. It's too risky at high %s
-Shino-stall so they keep their distance with those bairs, that should give you some room to do a getup from the ledge or a super tiny ledgedash or drop from the ledge and jump towards the stage
- if you want to try the ledge dash, do it to a run past them (maybe Dsmash infront of them).
- if get onto the stage, you can try to challenge the bairs by shielding.. they will probably land and uptilt or shine. If they do a shine, do a nair OOS. If they uptilt, that's harder to deal with, but the uptilt should push them away too, giving you more room to wavedash back OOS. If you can wavedash back OOS, maybe you can get an ftilt.
It is so hard to directly challenge AC Bair to uptilt (especially from the air), so it's best to create an entirely new situation altogether.

Mostly agree with it all, but I definitely want ledgedeash f-tilt, ledgedash grab, and etc. to be an aspect of the game against Falco's ac bairs. I want to at least have the option at 150% when I'm dead regardless, and to have the threat of doing it to get this certain Falco off my back.

So far, I'm having the best luck with hold back drop-off (being 0º), then jump and air-dodge while holding the stick at like 190-200º, and I'm not enjoying the Kadano-style ledgedash (http://gfycat.com/GrimUnitedArrowworm#?speed=0.125).


Additional Comments:

I'm really wanting to try out the Hax-style edgehog with Sheik. Where you do a normal get-up below 100%, then immediately wavedash back and fast-fall to re-grab the ledge. I never see Sheiks do this (and I only ever really see Hax do it with Fox) but it seems sooo good. Anyone know how many frames it takes for Sheik to do the full sequence or have a means to test it?

 

[cisyphus]

I can test that out for you. A lot of Foxes actually do it—Cactuar did it to me four times in our TBH4 set. Mew2king is partial to it as well.

45 Frames:
1-34: Ledge Stand
35: Jump input
36-37: Jumpsquat
38: Sheik is airborne, wavedash input
39-41: Sheik is on stage
42: Sheik leaves the stage, fastfall input
43-44: Sheik fastfalls
45: Sheik grabs ledge

Obtained via 20xx hack pack utilizing the develop debug mode and color overlays to see wait times and such.

 

[skaterbaj]

what do I do after I jab a spacie at low percent? the people I play usually sdi the jab away(or crouch cancel shine) so jab-> grab is really hard at low percent. I think jab is really good in neutral.

 

[cisyphus]

f-tilt, d-tilt, and d-smash all come out frame 5 and reach further than grab, so it should cover what you need. You can try a second jab to mix up the SDI too.

 

[EddyBearr]

Nice, so it's exactly as fast, or 1 frame slower at worst, than Fox's "Hax-Stand". Good to know it's comparable and god-like with Sheik too.

Thanks for checking.

 

[cisyphus]

Yeah I mean, the characters' data are identical save for wavedash length, so it's rather straightforward. I am honestly a little unsure that I got the first possible fastfall input, but I'm no more than a frame off for sure. It's good stuff, and I'll be using it with Samus without a doubt. Best way to edgeguard Sheik, imo.

 

[Ray_Rages]

Anyone have tricks for consistently doing the ledge cancel poof trick? Is it just practice and repetition or is there a trick to avoid jumping accidentally or worse the self destruct?

 

[EddyBearr]

Anyone have tricks for consistently doing the ledge cancel poof trick? Is it just practice and repetition or is there a trick to avoid jumping accidentally or worse the self destruct?

This is pretty much just a practice kind of thing, though do know that it isn't really useful. It's flashy but it's a very slow ledgehog technique and the hitbox almost never comes in handy, and when it does, is sub-optimal.

 

[cisyphus]

I'd actually discourage even learning it. There's so many better outlets for that kind of determination.

 

[EddyBearr]

I'm glad I learned it. Players who don't know about it see it and go, "oh my god that was awesome!" It's a fun trick. It also takes very, very little effort to really get down.

 

[BSeeD]

Its actually not that difficult.

The trick is to input up and b at the same time, you would jump by pressing up too soon.
It's also important if not necessary to still be on the ground when you input your upB.

It's not that useful except when you need to time your ledge invincibility.
You can also do it from YS' side platforms (by going straight forward before the explosion then going down + ledge direction), it is fun when you can time it to punish ffers wanting to recover with an edge cancelled side b But very situational though !

I have a rather stupid question :
This morning I was wondering what are my best options when I am standing on the ground and my opponent is facing me in the air (and has strong air to ground moves).

I couldn't figure out lol anyone ?

 

[CrazyCupofJoe]

Its actually not that difficult.
I have a rather stupid question :
This morning I was wondering what are my best options when I am standing on the ground and my opponent is facing me in the air (and has strong air to ground moves).

I couldn't figure out lol anyone ?

I would assume if they are right above you that uptilt could be a strong answer. If they are coming at a more horizontal angle, you can wavedash back and try to punish or get a grab.

 

[SacaSuMoto]

Sheik doesn't have many options for when people are directly above her. Her upairs gets beat or it trades with almost everything, uptilt hitbox only lasts a short time, and f-tilt is though to get the right hit with.

Usually the favorable times to use upair are for combos or for kills.
Uptilt for when you're extremely close to someone, maybe he is shielding and you're facing back to back and you can uptilt to jank a hit to grab. or you use it when they're way above you in the air, coming down with an aerial and you know their hitbox will end when they reach your uptilt height. the timing is tricky though
The thing you want to be able to do the most is to run away from their aerial so that you can land a ftilt or grab on them, because now their aerial has been undershot and they are landing a good distance infront of you. If they overshoot the aerial or land right on you, prepare to CC to dsmash or if you're lucky a grab.

 

[The Lemon]

What would you do in this situation (I have 2):

1. You just spawned with invincibility (on say, FD) and your opponent holds their shield as you run at them.

2. You just spawned with invincibility (on anything besides FD) and your opponent hold their shield on a platform.

 

[EddyBearr]

What would you do in this situation (I have 2):

1. You just spawned with invincibility (on say, FD) and your opponent holds their shield as you run at them.

2. You just spawned with invincibility (on anything besides FD) and your opponent hold their shield on a platform.

Grab. Perhaps wait and grab.

 

[SacaSuMoto]

What would you do in this situation (I have 2):

1. You just spawned with invincibility (on say, FD) and your opponent holds their shield as you run at them.

2. You just spawned with invincibility (on anything besides FD) and your opponent hold their shield on a platform.

This is the kind of thing you begin to look for answer by understanding why they would do those things in the first place.
In case 1 you're running at them, so they're probably scared of getting dash attacked out of their movements. Or maybe they don't want to risk getting hit by crouch dsmash. Maybe they're also just trying to wait out your shield pressure (fair -> ftilt, jab, dsmash) so they can roll out or punish you when you don't have invincibility.
Now, really all they're at risk of is getting grabbed, which is more or less easy to spotdodge.
So knowing this, you can delay your timings for your pressure. You can even run past them and see how they react. The safest bet is probably to run, crouch infront of them, wait out the spotdodge, and dsmash or grab, if they roll you can chase them with dash.

In case 2, they're waiting for you to hit them so they can shield drop (but that's kind of jank since you'll still be invincible, if you're not slow).
So hit them while you're still invincible, with an aerial, and you're under them that way they can't hit you or escape with a shield drop, if they escape with jump.. that's a bit harder to deal with but then they're in a bad position and will probably have to use their double jump if you can chase them in the air.
Again you can crouch infront of them... but this time punishing the rolling options is much easier, and they can shield drop to escape if you hit them with a fair to land on the platform.

 

[MattCon5]

How do you guys utilize wall jumps? I'm trying to figure out how I can best use them mid-match but I usually find myself forgetting about it.

 

[JediLink]

How do you guys utilize wall jumps? I'm trying to figure out how I can best use them mid-match but I usually find myself forgetting about it.

http://youtu.be/kREm4Bsw58M?t=6m13s

The most common things I would wall jump for is just to climb the tree on Stadium quicker and to occasionally to do disrespectful wall jump fairs when they're too far away to recover.

 

[Liamcal]

Great stuff. Thanks!

 

[skaterbaj]

Big tourney this weekend 60+confirmed. Im 2nd seed in my pool but we all go even. Still kinda worried about my movement and getting stuck in shield as sheik.

 

[The Lemon]

I've been thinking about edgeguarding... Here are a couple of my thoughts/questions:

1. What is the fastest (reliable) way to refresh my invincibility from the edge? Do you think this would be useful, or should I just try to time when I grab the edge?

2. If an opponent is recovering from below stage, since bair has a hitbox below Sheik, wouldn't it be better than nair? Or, when would you use one over the other?

3. Does reverse fair have the same knockback properties as a normal fair?

 

[Ray_Rages]

I've been thinking about edgeguarding... Here are a couple of my thoughts/questions:

1. What is the fastest (reliable) way to refresh my invincibility from the edge? Do you think this would be useful, or should I just try to time when I grab the edge?

2. If an opponent is recovering from below stage, since bair has a hitbox below Sheik, wouldn't it be better than nair? Or, when would you use one over the other?

3. Does reverse fair have the same knockback properties as a normal fair?

1: Shino stalling, some call it Sheik's up B stall. Is the preferred way to refresh your invincibility on the ledge aside from just a standard sweet spot. It's useful because the poof animations give Sheik invincibility as well, along with a couple hit boxes. Getting the shino stall as frame perfect as possible is key to not being hit off the ledge. One way I've learnt the timing is by using tap jump on the control stick to drop and jump at a designated height, doing the poof and holding down on the control stick and letting go right as the poof occurs. Repetition of this technique will assure your timing is on point and as frame tight as possible.

2. I typically prefer back air for edge guarding, if I'm not mistaken I believe it has the second most knockback of all of Sheik's aerials, at least when you get the hard bair at a decent percent. Certain matchups determine which you should use to edge guard. Fighting Marth for example if you can't drop off the edge and hit him with a strong back air you're better off trying to time your neutral air to intercept. At least in my opinion.

3.The reverse fair does have the same knockback as the regular. It's very useful though if you catch your opponent off guard, ledge hop back on the the stage, make sure your slightly past them and then forward air. Hitting them with the side of the hitbox closest to the side blast zone, giving you the best chance for a kill or to at least regain stage control.

 

[tauKhan]

To add to 3. : There are no "reverse hitboxes" at all, the direction the victim is sent at is based on the central bones of the characters, i.e if attacker is left of the victim, the victim is sent right (though if the kb angle is above 90° he of course is sent to left and vice versa if victim is left to the attacker.). So all "reverse hits" always have exact same properties except launch angle is mirrored.

 

[SacaSuMoto]

zip

1. You can do the sung thing, where he drops jumps then up+bs to grab the ledge. I don't think shino stalling is actually that fast, or when you need to refresh it in a tight timing i dislike the hitbox. So I will just drop and immediately jump fast fall continuously, that way i can be more versatile in tight timings (since you commit a lot when using the upb ledge stalls), when i may not get it i just go for the stage so i don't get hit and get an awkward trade that leads to me getting hit into the stage and then dying.

2. one thing is that her bair, extends diagonally downwards in front of her, that way you can get someone with that hitbox earlier, then you be able to with nair. In between her legs the hitbox is very long so you can cover more angles. The other thing is that bair has a weaker hitbox in those areas, than nair does. Sometimes you want a weaker or stronger hitbox, for example.. when you don't want them to wall tech. Nair is better for trading, bair is better for reaching out the hit or when you want to straight up beat their move all together.

3. It should have the same knockback/launchspeed, but if you can get your opponent to not expect it, then their DI will be worse with the reverse hit.

So to get the reverse hitbox, as it was explained, you just need to hit them with a hitbox that's on the other side of their center of gravity. From the gif, then the only hitbox like that is located right at the start up, as she is starting the swing. Keep in mind how disjointed that hitbox is... it reaches far above her lmao.

 

[The Lemon]

I have been playing around with this shield pressure tech I "stole" from Marth, or rather, learned from PewPewU and Ken:

SHFFL Fair > dash/run past shied > run stop (crouch) > dd > grab

Do you guys think this is a relevant mix-up? Or is there something more efficient?

And if it wasn't clear, I've been playing around with this tech and trying to apply it to Sheik...

 

[TIA.18]

Hitting f-airs is so satisfying. Embarrass

 

[SacaSuMoto]

Those are very threatening with Marth because a spaced fair will outranged your opponents grab while you still have your grab option. Meaning that Marth's shield pressure does not rely on fast aerial to ground moves. You just need to wait for your opponent to act out of sheild, while you're still spaced. When you dash into them the grab threat is still there + you've already conditioned them to stay in shield for as long as possible. Now, you're dashing past them, you continue dashing so Marth is lunged forward making it harder to hit him with bairs. You're past them, they are still in sheild, and you're spaced behind them. Pivot fmash, pivot grab, or just turn arounds to those are still threatening.

Sheik, can't space fair like Marth. So if you do a close fair you can dash away to bait, or your pressure relies on fast buttons. They are harder to condition. You're dash isn't as fast or long as marths, so you can't space well after you dash behind them. And you don't have fmash or grab to really work with. Unless it's a tight pivot grab. The only thing you do have to space and dash, is bair. However, that will only be good for reading the jump or poking. If anything dashing away to a stronger neutral position is best. You can also work with cc stuff, but sheik doesn't have the best CC. Since you don't have shield pressure and movement fluidity Marth has it will never be as smooth or function exactly the same.

I prefer fair -> dash away. But I can see fair run past them to get out of weird situations

 

[JediLink]

Guys, I apologise if this question is weird, but I just realised that I truly don't have an answer for it.

Why does Sheik beat Marth?

Every other traditional counter matchup seems pretty clear-cut to me. Fox beats Puff because of his superb vertical kill power. Peach beats Ice Climbers because she can easily separate them and kill Nana with her FC aerials. Sheik beats Falcon because she can stop his dash dance, CC him for days, tech chase him and gimp his ass recovery.

But I don't understand why Sheik beats Marth. Every Marth in my region loves to complain about how gay Sheik is (and bear in mind, this is in PAL). Obviously there's something they hate that I should be doing, and maybe am already doing, but I can't pinpoint what it is.

 

[The Lemon]

@ SacaSuMoto Thanks for the response! That actually makes a lot of sense (why it's so strong for Marth but not super good for Sheik).
If that's the case, I think I will still try to experiment with it and to try to condition my opponent to shield after I fair them by doing more jab shenanigans.

Guys, I apologise if this question is weird, but I just realised that I truly don't have an answer for it.

Why does Sheik beat Marth?

Every other traditional counter matchup seems pretty clear-cut to me. Fox beats Puff because of his superb vertical kill power. Peach beats Ice Climbers because she can easily separate them and kill Nana with her FC aerials. Sheik beats Falcon because she can stop his dash dance, CC him for days, tech chase him and gimp his *** recovery.

But I don't understand why Sheik beats Marth. Every Marth in my region loves to complain about how gay Sheik is (and bear in mind, this is in PAL). Obviously there's something they hate that I should be doing, and maybe am already doing, but I can't pinpoint what it is.

Traditionally, people think that Sheik beats Marth because of the punish game. Once Sheik gets a grab, 30%+ is kind of guaranteed as long as the Sheik knows the flow chart. If you try to playing as Marth in this match-up, whenever you get grabbed, it kind of feels like you don't get to play for a couple seconds (This is how UMVC3 is!), and I guess people find that lame.

In reality, the math-up isn't so bad, once you get to higher levels. Marth wins the neutral game, and he still has some pretty strong combos that aren't to bad on Sheik, and edgeguarding is pretty strong for Marth. Just at low-mid levels, the MU seems really good for Sheik because the combo game.

So, learn to combo, but keep in mind, just as some evidence, PPU has beaten Shroomed in the MU, and PPMD has beaten m2k in the MU.

 

[JediLink]

Traditionally, people think that Sheik beats Marth because of the punish game. Once Sheik gets a grab, 30%+ is kind of guaranteed as long as the Sheik knows the flow chart. If you try to playing as Marth in this match-up, whenever you get grabbed, it kind of feels like you don't get to play for a couple seconds (This is how UMVC3 is!), and I guess people find that lame.

Well that does make sense; being a PAL player, I've never seen or felt the devastation of a Sheik grab firsthand, so it doesn't really come to mind. But then why do people still complain about Sheik in PAL? Surely without the huge grab advantage, it must at least be even. Are they just scrubs?

 

[tauKhan]

@ JediLink I think it's just that marth is a lot harder to play correctly in the mu. Sheik strategies and combos vs marth are easier to execute, and sheik can punish mistakes really hard. At higher levels of play where marth really seems to win the neutral game, I think it's even mu, in pal marth probably wins. I'm not high lvl player though so I don't know, but I used to hate playing vs marth when I mained sheik in pal.

 

[stelzig]

^Marth just has to Uair sheik all day. How hard can it be? I believe the answer is actually just "yes".

 

[Captain Faceroll]

Frame perfect nair oos beats shine grab, ask Sung about all the other ones

I actually disagreed with you here, but now after looking more into the frame data from here: (http://smashboards.com/threads/shield-pressure-frame-data.278616/) that seems accurate... that's insane.

I never knew about this, thanks

 

[tauKhan]

@Laudandus

I actually disagreed with you here, but now after looking more into the frame data from here: (http://smashboards.com/threads/shield-pressure-frame-data.278616/) that seems accurate... that's insane.

I never knew about this, thanks

Actually you were right to disagree: unless the grabs don't hit, fox's shine grab tank grabs the nair while falco's is outright faster. (falco's shine does 1 more frame of hitstun) Framedata breakdown for fox's shine grab vs nair OoS (Omitting hitlag because it's the same for both on block):

Spoiler

fox:

1. shine hit
2. shine 2
3. shine 3
4. jump 1
5. grab 1
6. grab 2
7. grab 3
8. grab 4
9. grab 5
10. grab 6
11. grab hit

sheik:

1. Shine block
2. stun 1
3. stun 2
4. stun 3
5. stun 4
6. jump 1
7. jump 2
8. jump 3
9. nair 1
10. nair 2
11. nair hit

Shieldstun formula: floor [(4,45 + damage)/2,235] and unstaled fox shine does 5,000%

 

[Captain Faceroll]

I was under the impression that fox and falco had to go through their entire jumpsquat before they could cancel it into a grab, is that not the case?

 

[Captain Faceroll]

After thinking about it more that makes sense, or else jc grabs/shinegrabs would have to be frame perfect... well then.

But since fox's grab hits on frame 11 and sheik's nair hits on frame 11, doesn't that mean if fox's shine was staled once then nair oos would win?

 

[tauKhan]

No, you can grab during jumpsquat animation, think how much faster you can make the jc input compared to wd.

Minimum staling coefficient required for fox shine's stun to drop to 3 frames is 0,89 , which basically means the shine has to be staled at least twice.