Q&A Sheik Q's&A's/Videos/Gen Discussion

[Juushichi]

Kirby is a real ****head to deal with, but I feel like I've had a fair amount of success doing the stuff that you suggested.

Whether I play aggro or not kinda depends on the MU and somewhat the player. Because of the range differences in this game, I feel like you do have to limit space and aggressively shut down options like Umbreon mentioned at more times than I felt I had to in Melee, though. I know I play the Sonic MU a bit more passively than I do most, until it's time for edgeguard interactions where I start to seal the deal a bit more aggressively. This is also how I play our resident puff player as well.

Whereas vs Charizard for example, I try to limit his options much faster and play that sort of 50/50 game.

vs Samus, though... it feels like you can kinda do much of the same stuff in terms of closing down options that you could in Melee, I think? vs Peach it seems a tad bit harder, of course.

Okami, I spoke with Fly a little and it seemed to indicate that you struggled with the MK MU (via DSF), I've also struggled a bit, so I'd like more of your insight on that, since I believe you've played it often enough. Also, what is your opinion of vs Luigi? That character scares me in this game.

 

[OkamiBW]

Ironically...I almost feel like TL may be the answer against MK. But in terms of going Sheik against MK...I think that boost grabs are a huge part of how you should play the match up. Whenever MK is in the air, be super weary of his two D-air angles. Whenever you land a F-tilt...think about a follow-up grab before an aerial or another F-tilt...

But I mean...Idk. He's pretty difficult to deal with for Sheik, I feel like.

As for Luigi...he seems a lot easier to fight. Don't be too afraid to edgeguard him if you have the jump on him. But if you're a little slow to get out there, be weary of misfires. They could ruin your day. N-air is less useful against Luigi. B-air/F-air spacing are integral. He can crouch cancel F-tilt and punish hard. Avoid FD because you don't have any recovery options. But I think Sheik v Luigi is do-able and isn't a bad MU for Sheik. Really, only MK, Fox, Falco, and potentially Wolf and Diddy feel like up hill battles.

Have you tried GnW vs any of those 5 characters? If so, does it feel easier to fight as him or as Sheik? I'm curious on if you have any strategies on fighting Diddy, actually.

 

[DMG]

G&W vs who? G^W probably has a harder time vs MK, Diddy, and Wolf

Sheik vs MK feels OK, but mostly for grabbing or tech chasing him. The other parts of it don't feel as fun

Diddy is lame

 

[Juushichi]

I have never had an issue with GnW vs Diddy (45-55 or 5-5), but have only played Dope, Player-1 and SoulPech who is picking him up. /
Wolf vs GnW felt like 5-5 after I played StricNYNE at APEX 2K12 and playing scythe for a few games at NR did not sway my opinion. I have no idea about now, though. /
GnW vs MK sucked and felt extremely bad when I played DSF. But I played a local in it recently and it didn't feel as bad, idk. /
GnW vs Fox is 4-6 at best. / GnW vs Falco is probably minuscule amounts better. /

So overall what I would probably play is likely:
vs Wolf: Either, but probably GnW
vs Falco: Sheik
vs MK: Sheik/Marth (lol)
vs Fox: Sheik/Marth (lol)
vs Diddy: Either, but probably GnW

as an aside, though... I feel like GnW vs Sheik is extremely annoying for both parties, lol. If I'm being unreasonable, I would say 5-5, but more honestly I think it's 45-55 in Sheik's favor. I've played a fair amount of Sheik players, mostly none of huge note in it, but did some extended set stuff vs Fizzle here locally (I usually lose 60% of the time vs him, though).

One funny thing was that I once made HankyPanky ragequit out of both sides of this MU in a session, lol.

 

[Deleted member]

projectiles are definitely the answer to MK, fighting that character without them feels awful (i hate it with marth).

a lot of kirby issues are solved with waiting and boost grab into gravy.

i have yet to play a MU that i feel is disadvantageous with this character, but we'll see what happens when apex rolls around i guess.

 

[DMG]

I still dunno about Marth v MK. I always win vs the variety of MK's here as Marth (wouldn't have vids unfortunately for that MU) so I'm not sure if that's actually MU related or just me specific doing good.

Sheik does fine vs MK, I dunno what is more successful against him though as far as campy or aggressive. Boost grabbing is very useful and mitigates some of his poking, he's decently easy to tech chase with below average tech rolls.

 

[Jolteon]

@ OkamiBW : Just play TL vs MK. If you want advice in that match up feel free to message me.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

i found out the hard way that sheiks needles are dissapointly less bootleg than they were in maylay. i cant poop on certain characters (marth falcon spacies) recoveries in pm as easily as i could then.

 

[~@~Tilde~@~]

How do I use the chain? I'm coming from Melee, and apparently there's some chain tricks I should know? Something about the Brawl mechanics?
I know about the chain jacket though

 

[DMG]

If you can do the chain jacket, you're good to go

 

[Dan_X]

If you can do the chain jacket, you're good to go

Could you or someone else elaborate on this "chain jacket." I read that it has something to do with the last attack you used.

Is he chain jacket something that's feasible to pull off in a regular match? Is it something good Sheiks consistently do? Which attacks should be used to "prime" it?

 

[GunBlaze]

Could you or someone else elaborate on this "chain jacket." I read that it has something to do with the last attack you used.

Is he chain jacket something that's feasible to pull off in a regular match? Is it something good Sheiks consistently do? Which attacks should be used to "prime" it?

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Chain_Jacket_glitch

 

[Deleted member]

yeah i changed my mind, after some testing i think sheik has a lot of issues against kirby.

 

[DMG]

Kirby vs Sheik in Melee looked weird

 

[Arcalyth]

Sheik can chaingrab Kirby, I'd recommend a uair followup over ftilt after 50-60% though. Kirby controls horizontal airspace quite well and that is a bit of a weakness for Sheik due to her low air speed. Keep Kirby on the ground where Sheik excels.

The matchup isn't too bad as Zelda because she's better at controlling the air and has an easier time outright KOing (harder to setup, easier to KO if that makes sense)

 

[~@~Tilde~@~]

Does anyone needlesnipe? Throwing needles out instead of coming off the stage to ledgeguard?

 

[Plum]

Like everyone?
Every Sheik player should be able to seamlessly integrate both her onstage and offstage edgeguarding tools to maximize her punishment game when the opponent is offstage.

 

[~@~Tilde~@~]

Like everyone?
Every Sheik player should be able to seamlessly integrate both her onstage and offstage edgeguarding tools to maximize her punishment game when the opponent is offstage.

That's what I figured, but I don't see very many people use it. I'll post some videos within a month or so.

 

[Plum]

A lot of the reason you might not see it is that opponents quickly learn to recover around the threat of needles precisely because getting hit by needles offstage often just ends your stock.
However, this can be almost as advantageous as hitting your offstage opponent with needles. Just by playing around the threat of needles they limit their potential recovery options which makes covering said options easier. Sheik is a very proficient edgeguarder, but a lot of good characters have a multitude of options that they can use to recover; while Sheik is capable of answering each option individually it's hard if not downright impossible to cover all of them at the same time. So by limiting their potential options with just the threat of needle snipes you make your life easier all around. If they find themselves unable to recover with these options they may start trying other options that are susceptible to needles but not, say, a dropzone Nair that you were hitting them with when they tried to avoid needles. It's up to you to properly respond to their attempts at mixups.
It's sort of a game of cat and mouse; you are definitely the cat.

 

[~@~Tilde~@~]

Yeah here's a video I found with Sheik edgeguarding with needles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dicttQ1Bjk

Thanks for all the help, Plum. I definitely plan on being active and around.

 

[Fortress]

First game we've recorded for our group. Just some friendlies in our town's group at my place tonight, one of our first games of the night.

 

[foxygrandpa]

First game we've recorded for our group. Just some friendlies in our town's group at my place tonight, one of our first games of the night.

Your movement overall was pretty good, but there are some things you need to work on. Reverse aerial rushes make sheiks edgeguarding significantly easier in this, because it allows her to grab the edge faster while running towards it. After doing that, you can bair, edge grab, and repeat until theyre either in a favorable place for you to kill or to just keep off stage. Also, be careful when throwing out fsmashes. Someone could really easily crouch cancel and punish you, since sheik is easy to crouch cancel and its generally more effective in this game than melee. You should also work on upb to sweetspot the edge, its really helpful for edgeguarding because of her invincibility. Try to read techs more for more grabs, and dont attack the shield as much.

 

[Fortress]

I'm pretty solid with hitting the sweetspot out of Sheik's recovery with the bounce before the warp. Though, at around 2:10 I **** up and miss the ledge pretty badly. It's recovering with wall jump + cancelled B-reversed needles that I'm working on at this point. My tech reads do need work, since a lot of people who play here recover off of the ledge the exact same way. I need to work on reverse aerials with Sheik. I've got the hang of reverse b-airs with Link, but I find myself relying on n-airs a lot with Sheik for aerial pressure. Also, needles are all the rage in my Sheik game now. Gimps and setups for some f-airs.

EDIT: Yeah, I do need to rely less on f-smash for carrying. Usually it's f-tilt that I use, but maybe I'm throwing out f-smash a lot more than I actually notice, and it's just a habit at this point. I figure that if I work more on my movement and reads, then I can rely less on actually attacking so much and just punish my opponent for poor movement choices. I think spacing and baiting are some things I need to work on. The way somebody else put it, I need to focus less on trying to kill my opponent off of the nearest blast zone, and focus more on baits and punishes.

On the topic of attacking shields, a lot of the time I do it, I'm hoping to poke through the shield with Sheik's d-tilt. Is this not nearly as effective as I think it is?

Another minor thing to work on is to just be more responsive with the controller, or however you'd word that. Plenty of times when I come out of an l-cancel or a SHFFL with my shield coming out for a split second when I probably didn't mean to. Also, things like accidentally airdodging and throwing away a kill, like at the start of the game. What else, oh, another thing I have a lot of trouble doing with Sheik is following up u-throw with any action. I feel like I take forever to be able to leave the ground, and I feel like Sheik should be able to jump sooner than I think she can after u-throw, but I end up doing the input for jump+u-air and just end up doing u-smash on the ground. Any advice there?

 

[foxygrandpa]

I'm pretty solid with hitting the sweetspot out of Sheik's recovery with the bounce before the warp. Though, at around 2:10 I **** up and miss the ledge pretty badly. It's recovering with wall jump + cancelled B-reversed needles that I'm working on at this point. My tech reads do need work, since a lot of people who play here recover off of the ledge the exact same way. I need to work on reverse aerials with Sheik. I've got the hang of reverse b-airs with Link, but I find myself relying on n-airs a lot with Sheik for aerial pressure. Also, needles are all the rage in my Sheik game now. Gimps and setups for some f-airs.

EDIT: Yeah, I do need to rely less on f-smash for carrying. Usually it's f-tilt that I use, but maybe I'm throwing out f-smash a lot more than I actually notice, and it's just a habit at this point. I figure that if I work more on my movement and reads, then I can rely less on actually attacking so much and just punish my opponent for poor movement choices. I think spacing and baiting are some things I need to work on. The way somebody else put it, I need to focus less on trying to kill my opponent off of the nearest blast zone, and focus more on baits and punishes.

On the topic of attacking shields, a lot of the time I do it, I'm hoping to poke through the shield with Sheik's d-tilt. Is this not nearly as effective as I think it is?

Another minor thing to work on is to just be more responsive with the controller, or however you'd word that. Plenty of times when I come out of an l-cancel or a SHFFL with my shield coming out for a split second when I probably didn't mean to. Also, things like accidentally airdodging and throwing away a kill, like at the start of the game. What else, oh, another thing I have a lot of trouble doing with Sheik is following up u-throw with any action. I feel like I take forever to be able to leave the ground, and I feel like Sheik should be able to jump sooner than I think she can after u-throw, but I end up doing the input for jump+u-air and just end up doing u-smash on the ground. Any advice there?

As for sheik's aerial pressure, although she is fast in the air, you should really trying to be more ground based. Her short hop is among the tallest in the game, not to mention she has terrible aerial movement, making her air game not bad, but not as good as her ground game.
Sheik's dtilt is a pretty good attack, but has very little shield stun, and because sheik cant duck underneath grabs, leaves her open to a shield grab or any punish out of shield. Its a really good attack, since it sets up for fair, but its pretty situational. And for your edguarding, try RAR into wavedash to take the edge. Its a really quick edge grab, and you can start edgeguarding from there.
You can't follow up uair, sheik has too much lag on the attack. The best use for it is to throw someone onto a platform, and try to read their tech. Otherwise, only use dthrow, and bthrow. The other ones are pretty useless, aside from the occasional uses of fthrow.

 

[Fortress]

As for sheik's aerial pressure, although she is fast in the air, you should really trying to be more ground based. Her short hop is among the tallest in the game, not to mention she has terrible aerial movement, making her air game not bad, but not as good as her ground game.
Sheik's dtilt is a pretty good attack, but has very little shield stun, and because sheik cant duck underneath grabs, leaves her open to a shield grab or any punish out of shield. Its a really good attack, since it sets up for fair, but its pretty situational. And for your edguarding, try RAR into wavedash to take the edge. Its a really quick edge grab, and you can start edgeguarding from there.
You can't follow up uair, sheik has too much lag on the attack. The best use for it is to throw someone onto a platform, and try to read their tech. Otherwise, only use dthrow, and bthrow. The other ones are pretty useless, aside from the occasional uses of fthrow.

Solid. I'm already RAR'ing, and it leads pretty cleanly into wd-ledgegrabs which lead into more off-stage b-airs. I even got away with a couple of RAR > wavedash > ledgehop > fair-stagespike things yesterday, which just looks janky. I haven't been d-tilting nearly as much, at least not until I've got my opponent barely above the ground, or catching them during recovery attempts and grabbing (useful).

Most of my setups for off-stage play and kills start with a grab over the ledge, a few pummels, and just letting my opponent get released far down into the bottom corners of the stage (depending on the character I'm fighting). I've been doing that for a while, and it usually leads into an easy n-air block or plain edgehog.

Mostly using d-throw now, and I've quit d-airing nearly as much, since I just seem to get shield-grabbed half of the time. Though, I still use it when somebody's down on the ground, and I've even used it to hit somebody above me since it's got a large hitbox above Sheik, which comes more in handy (I feel, anyway) than u-air at lower percents.

F-smash has also been cut back in my playstyle, and I've started incorporating a lot of needles. I'm actually fairly accurate with them, and just landing one on an off-stage opponent leads into so much, whether it's a simple gimp or stalling them for a f-air. On-stage, needles have helped disrupt the others in our group, and leads cleanly into follow-ups once somebody makes a bad choice in moving away because of one needle hit.

One thing I've really enjoyed doing, is going off-stage for a f-air, jumping and f-airing again, and coming back successfully. One of our guys plays Kirby, and I made him use up all of his jumps and die with a combination of that and ledgehopped b-airs. And he plays Kirby. Creature of a thousand jumps.

Anyway, I'm working with needles a lot now. Walljump > B-reversed needle cancel > ledgegrab is a recovery trick that I'm just now learning about, and trying to bring to my playstyle. Also, in that video, where I airdodge by mistake and die where it could've been an easy kill, I'm needling in spots like that now, which is going better.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Solid. I'm already RAR'ing, and it leads pretty cleanly into wd-ledgegrabs which lead into more off-stage b-airs. I even got away with a couple of RAR > wavedash > ledgehop > fair-stagespike things yesterday, which just looks janky. I haven't been d-tilting nearly as much, at least not until I've got my opponent barely above the ground, or catching them during recovery attempts and grabbing (useful).

Most of my setups for off-stage play and kills start with a grab over the ledge, a few pummels, and just letting my opponent get released far down into the bottom corners of the stage (depending on the character I'm fighting). I've been doing that for a while, and it usually leads into an easy n-air block or plain edgehog.

Mostly using d-throw now, and I've quit d-airing nearly as much, since I just seem to get shield-grabbed half of the time. Though, I still use it when somebody's down on the ground, and I've even used it to hit somebody above me since it's got a large hitbox above Sheik, which comes more in handy (I feel, anyway) than u-air at lower percents.

F-smash has also been cut back in my playstyle, and I've started incorporating a lot of needles. I'm actually fairly accurate with them, and just landing one on an off-stage opponent leads into so much, whether it's a simple gimp or stalling them for a f-air. On-stage, needles have helped disrupt the others in our group, and leads cleanly into follow-ups once somebody makes a bad choice in moving away because of one needle hit.

One thing I've really enjoyed doing, is going off-stage for a f-air, jumping and f-airing again, and coming back successfully. One of our guys plays Kirby, and I made him use up all of his jumps and die with a combination of that and ledgehopped b-airs. And he plays Kirby. Creature of a thousand jumps.

Anyway, I'm working with needles a lot now. Walljump > B-reversed needle cancel > ledgegrab is a recovery trick that I'm just now learning about, and trying to bring to my playstyle. Also, in that video, where I airdodge by mistake and die where it could've been an easy kill, I'm needling in spots like that now, which is going better.

also, learn to take advantage of the needle frametrap, its really helpful in the neutral and off the edge.

 

[Fortress]

Tell me more about this needle frametrap.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

yes, i would like to more about this needle frame trap as well

 

[Fortress]

Just played some more games recently with my new CAPTURE CARD.

So, yeah, here are a couple of the thousand we recorded tonight:

​

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

What's the MU like against Marth?

 

[Fortress]

What's the MU like against Marth?

Sucks ****. It's difficult to get into his zone, and I personally struggle against heavy f-smash use. I simply cannot recover against Marth.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Sucks ****. It's difficult to get into his zone, and I personally struggle against heavy f-smash use. I simply cannot recover against Marth.

Eh
It shouldn't be that bad...If I remember correctly, it was a good MU for her in melee.

 

[Fortress]

It is. Sheik's a good counter for Marth, I just personally struggle on certain stages, like Wario Ware.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Truthfully speaking, is the MU 6:4 or maybe more so in her favor? A lot of people try to say many of the match ups are dead even with 5:5 or only +1/-1 in this game, when that simply isn't the case. Granted, I feel some of those people just aren't that great/knowledgeable

 

[Fortress]

I'd say the match is definitely in Sheik's favor. I mean, I wouldn't go so far as to say strongly, but Sheik definitely has the tools to deal with Marth, her needles being a good asset since Marth lacks a projectile of his own. Barring stage picks, I'd say that Sheik has the matchup advantage overall. There are a lot more stages where Sheik can potentially suffer in the Marth MU, a good example being Wario Ware.

Here's a good example of what I mean:

On the right stage, Marth can demolish Sheik without ever having to close distance or move too terribly much.

 

[Deleted member]

sheik has the tools to deal with every character so that isn't saying much.

MU is probably pretty even.

 

[Arctic]

what about the sheik on zelda matchup? My friend plays zelda and he basically makes dinspar war zones through out the battle. So how can i use sheiks speed to get around zelda? Any matches that i could anaylze would be very helpful.

By the Way, can the dinspars be cancelled with needles?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

what about the sheik on zelda matchup? My friend plays zelda and he basically makes dinspar war zones through out the battle. So how can i use sheiks speed to get around zelda? Any matches that i could anaylze would be very helpful.

By the Way, can the dinspars be cancelled with needles?

Nair through them. Most characters(all?) can nair through them and have a frame advantage.

 

[Arctic]

Nair through them. Most characters(all?) can nair through them and have a frame advantage.

that actually worked wonderfully, thanks!

 

[Fortress]

Keep in mind that Sheik has one of the worst SHFFL's in the entire game, so attempting to neutralize Din mines with N-air is advised against, should Zelda lay them near or at ground level, as she can take advantage of this and punish your high n-air attempt. Needles are a much more effective solution, as Sheik doesn't suffer from endlag when thrown from the air, and can act upon landing immediately.