Meh. Without her downthrow I wish she had at least some small buff to make up for it.
I really miss her melee down throw...
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Q&A Sheik Q's&A's/Videos/Gen Discussion
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
I really miss her melee down throw...
OkamiBW
Smash Champion
A small buff? Like being able to crawl?Meh. Without her downthrow I wish she had at least some small buff to make up for it.
I really miss her melee down throw...
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,346
I thought the Dthrow was the same as PAL had which really isn't that bad of a loss. Not as devastating with guaranteed combos, but still lethal. If you really wanted a buff, then I suppose allowing her the option of tether recover would be all you need.
Her crawl, wall cling, improved fsmash and faster dthrow are all minor buffs in some aspects. Her tether would be a pretty significant improvement, imo.
One very important thing to note is that her dthrow is still better than her PAL dthrow, it's much easier to tech chase with and links into a tipper usmash on bad DI vs several characters.
One very important thing to note is that her dthrow is still better than her PAL dthrow, it's much easier to tech chase with and links into a tipper usmash on bad DI vs several characters.
Wavebuster
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2002
- Messages
- 261
The Chain is also a legitimate option for trapping if you know how to handle it.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Someone should post a link to the thread on smashmods detailing all the changes to sheik in P:M, which includes a plethora of small buffs not mentioned here.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
OkamiBW
Smash Champion
Added to the first post.
Toby.
Smash Master
I really enjoyed watching your set against Prof Pro, Jolteon.
Oonai
Smash Cadet
Ongoing youtube playlist for those of you looking to keep track of some sheik info. Some of it is borrowed melee stuff, and some is pretty general. However, I'm looking to constantly update the playlist with PM sheik stuff and MUs that I find useful.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL637DAD10D5FA5F83&feature=mh_lolz
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL637DAD10D5FA5F83&feature=mh_lolz
OkamiBW
Smash Champion
Tight. If you have any specific videos you wanna put up on the first post, drop the link here, and I'll update it.
Oonai
Smash Cadet
Is there any resource available to show inescapable chain throws with Sheik in PM atm? ... are there any?
OkamiBW
Smash Champion
I don't believe so. Though, I wouldn't say they're particularly inescapable. It's a 50-50 mix up between B-throw and D-throw.
Wavebuster
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2002
- Messages
- 261
It's more like a 60-40 mixup given that both d-throw and b-throw will catch neutral DIs.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
Sheik vs Toon Link ~45 mins
I know that I need to work on avoiding the projectiles a bit better and probably jab less, but any other help would be appreciated.
I know that I need to work on avoiding the projectiles a bit better and probably jab less, but any other help would be appreciated.
OkamiBW
Smash Champion
Lol, you guys just posted in the opposite threads. TL thread + Sheik thread. I'll look at the video and try to check out both perspectives later.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
well of course okami. looking forward to it
OkamiBW
Smash Champion
Starting from a pseudo-random place. 29:35.
Go for full hop B-airs when people are on the platforms. If you do the aerial early, you can double jump B-air, empty double jump, or just land. If you're under them, N-airs can work really well too. Especially on certain stages, like BF, you can short hop N-air which will just graze them but not put you in a position to get shield grabbed.
More F-tilt. Especially out of throws. F-tilt is your friend for spacing. Especially wavedash back F-tilt.
Sometimes you have to throw your fully charged needles on the ground when he's spamming projectiles. It'll get him to approach, make his projectiles stop/explode, and rack up the damage you need to get into the golden un-crouch-cancellable 35-ish%.
On the other hand...when your opponent is on the ground, rising B-air isn't as strong as when they're on the platforms. Instead do either a falling B-air if you want to space with it or do a rising N-air out of shield. It's got a better hitbox for rising.
From your combo at 30:54, you U-air to finish it. F-air may be a bit better because it will get him closer to the edge rather than above you.
There are actually a few times when you use U-air at low percents. U-air doesn't really have a great reward at low percent, nor the best hitbox. Instead try using a lot more F-air/B-air/and esp. N-air.
At 31:27, you U-air again. F-air will get him off stage and either lead to an edgeguard opportunity or just straight up kill him. TL, esp, has a great "above you" game with bombs and D-airs so be careful about putting him there.
Don't D-air at low percents. Generally only do it for tech chases or if you're sure it's gonna hit.
On the B-throw chain grab, eventually he's gonna figure it out. So either start comboing after a couple or go for a D-throw. Or mix him up by waiting to do your throw so he has time to think about it. Then do the opposite of whatever you normally would do.
Yeah, reiterating, don't think up so much and start thinking forward and off the stage.
Remember to refresh your invincibility by Shino stalling with Up-B. Especially if you throw in double jumps without the Shino stall, it makes it harder to read when you're coming up.
Always D-throw/B-throw them towards the direction they threw their boomerang so it doesn't hit you.
Yeah, off of D-throw/B-throw, you gotta F-tilt. Especially if they're close to the edge because either they DI off the edge and get into a worse position or they DI in and you get a free F-air.
Foxtrot more instead of dash attacking against downed opponents. That means like...do your initial dash, but then let go of the control stick and return it to the neutral position so that you can instantly dash in the opposite direction without accidentally turning around, do whatever you want from standing after your initial dash finishes, or dash forward again after your initial dash finishes.
At 33:50, you get a B-air which leads to an edgeguard. You double jump and Up-B back to the ledge. Instead, I'd suggest using your double jump to go for a second B-air because he really can't do anything about it and it guarantees the kill. Then again, he had no double jump, so your option was perfectly fine too.
Anyways...
The main morale of the story here is use less U-air/U-smash and use more F-air/B-air/N-air to get your opponent off the stage rather than above you.
Super btw, if ever anyone posts a topic in the Sheik subforums, someone alert me if it's of interest, lol. I generally check the threads I'm subscribed to, but not as much the subforums themselves.
Go for full hop B-airs when people are on the platforms. If you do the aerial early, you can double jump B-air, empty double jump, or just land. If you're under them, N-airs can work really well too. Especially on certain stages, like BF, you can short hop N-air which will just graze them but not put you in a position to get shield grabbed.
More F-tilt. Especially out of throws. F-tilt is your friend for spacing. Especially wavedash back F-tilt.
Sometimes you have to throw your fully charged needles on the ground when he's spamming projectiles. It'll get him to approach, make his projectiles stop/explode, and rack up the damage you need to get into the golden un-crouch-cancellable 35-ish%.
On the other hand...when your opponent is on the ground, rising B-air isn't as strong as when they're on the platforms. Instead do either a falling B-air if you want to space with it or do a rising N-air out of shield. It's got a better hitbox for rising.
From your combo at 30:54, you U-air to finish it. F-air may be a bit better because it will get him closer to the edge rather than above you.
There are actually a few times when you use U-air at low percents. U-air doesn't really have a great reward at low percent, nor the best hitbox. Instead try using a lot more F-air/B-air/and esp. N-air.
At 31:27, you U-air again. F-air will get him off stage and either lead to an edgeguard opportunity or just straight up kill him. TL, esp, has a great "above you" game with bombs and D-airs so be careful about putting him there.
Don't D-air at low percents. Generally only do it for tech chases or if you're sure it's gonna hit.
On the B-throw chain grab, eventually he's gonna figure it out. So either start comboing after a couple or go for a D-throw. Or mix him up by waiting to do your throw so he has time to think about it. Then do the opposite of whatever you normally would do.
Yeah, reiterating, don't think up so much and start thinking forward and off the stage.
Remember to refresh your invincibility by Shino stalling with Up-B. Especially if you throw in double jumps without the Shino stall, it makes it harder to read when you're coming up.
Always D-throw/B-throw them towards the direction they threw their boomerang so it doesn't hit you.
Yeah, off of D-throw/B-throw, you gotta F-tilt. Especially if they're close to the edge because either they DI off the edge and get into a worse position or they DI in and you get a free F-air.
Foxtrot more instead of dash attacking against downed opponents. That means like...do your initial dash, but then let go of the control stick and return it to the neutral position so that you can instantly dash in the opposite direction without accidentally turning around, do whatever you want from standing after your initial dash finishes, or dash forward again after your initial dash finishes.
At 33:50, you get a B-air which leads to an edgeguard. You double jump and Up-B back to the ledge. Instead, I'd suggest using your double jump to go for a second B-air because he really can't do anything about it and it guarantees the kill. Then again, he had no double jump, so your option was perfectly fine too.
Anyways...
The main morale of the story here is use less U-air/U-smash and use more F-air/B-air/N-air to get your opponent off the stage rather than above you.
Super btw, if ever anyone posts a topic in the Sheik subforums, someone alert me if it's of interest, lol. I generally check the threads I'm subscribed to, but not as much the subforums themselves.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
Thanks, I'll work on those for sure.
Solharath
[ZTD] CEO
I wouldn't mind getting a critique of my bare bones Sheik. Check out that walk to ftilt combo game. Too good.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
Just stopping in here to say that Sheik is ridiculously good in PM. At a tourney last week I ended up busting out Sheik in unfamiliar matchups (or ones that I am likely to lose) and did quite well. I think that Sheik is particularly well suited for the PM metagame because it is currently dominated by floaties and semi-floaties, which are generally good matchups for Sheik. Sheik's problem in Melee is that her tough matchups are spacies (and ICs lol) which comprise a majority of the metagame.
OkamiBW
Smash Champion
IC's not being in the game and TL hard-countering Puff makes Sheik amazing in this game, haha.
aisight (Sheik) vs Z (Pikachu)
Haviklink (Wario) vs aisight (Sheik)
PMRED (Ganondorf/Bowser) vs aisight (Sheik)
Need some help learning how to get efficient KO's on Pikachu, among other things. I probably also way overcommitted at many points.
Haviklink (Wario) vs aisight (Sheik)
PMRED (Ganondorf/Bowser) vs aisight (Sheik)
Need some help learning how to get efficient KO's on Pikachu, among other things. I probably also way overcommitted at many points.
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2003
- Messages
- 2,851
Why is my Sheik so bad in teams?
Zac and I had never teamed before so obviously we need to learn each others tendencies a little better, but clearly I've got some room for improvement.
From a quick rewatch I noticed:
1. Grab more, downsmash less.
2. Don't let wall cling steal your 2nd jump (only happened once in this set I think but it's happened to me about a dozen times in my limited PM experience).
3. Don't get tricked into agreeing to play on a banned stage (Skyworld).
You guys look like you're playing two separate 1v1s, which is the opposite of what you should be doing. Peach+Sheik is a fantastic team for walling out people in-between you and racking up damage in these situations very quickly, due to Sheik's excellent pokes and Peach's strong stage control+damage output.
Some examples of where this happened:
@1:22 - Peach is off the stage and Pit is on the other side of the stage from you, the Marth on the other hand is paying no attention to you and is trying to edgeguard Peach. In this situation, it would have been better to pressure Marth with pokes. Long-duration edgeguards are bad in teams, since it allows the other team mate to interrupt, this is something you should take advantage of.
@1:56 - Marth is directly in-between both of you, had you capitalised on this you could have very easily racked up a lot of percentage in a short amount of time, instead you ran after Pit and ended up with nothing.
Good moves to use to use for team combos: Sheik's bair and Peach's bair will combo most people into each other (see: team UGS) and this is an extremely efficient way to punish a stray opponent. dsmash is also a strong close-quarters option that will lock in opponents who are being hit in the opposite direction with another move (e.g. Peach bair). ftilt/fair are also good options. Basically, any move that is good at hitting an opponent horizontally into your team mate is a great move to use for team combos. I would suggest looking at more videos of Peach+Sheik teams and seeing how they box in teams and punish opponents. Luckily, there a lot of high level examples of this team, e.g. Arm2k, team UGS, Armada+Ice.
Generally you will find that it is best to pin down the fastest/squishiest member (typically a space animal) and to fend off rescue attempts from the slower team member/the one with poorer approach options (e.g. a floaty). In this team, I would suggest attempting to pin down the Pit player because 1) Pit can support his team mate with arrows 2) Marth lacks a method to directly approach someone without being unsafe (e.g. a good sex kick or a good dash attack). Of course, this does not mean that you shouldn't capitalise on Marth when he is in a bad position, his weight makes him extremely susceptible to team combos which is a good bonus.
tl;dr: You need more awareness of how you can interact with what your team partner is doing to maximise punishment and maintain stage control, rather than each focusing on one person.
edit: Regarding wall cling - a jump input (i.e. x/y/tap jump, not a wall jump input) will enable you to double jump from a wall cling even if you have no jumps left, so you shouldn't be in any situations where a wall cling "steals" your jump from you.
Some examples of where this happened:
@1:22 - Peach is off the stage and Pit is on the other side of the stage from you, the Marth on the other hand is paying no attention to you and is trying to edgeguard Peach. In this situation, it would have been better to pressure Marth with pokes. Long-duration edgeguards are bad in teams, since it allows the other team mate to interrupt, this is something you should take advantage of.
@1:56 - Marth is directly in-between both of you, had you capitalised on this you could have very easily racked up a lot of percentage in a short amount of time, instead you ran after Pit and ended up with nothing.
Good moves to use to use for team combos: Sheik's bair and Peach's bair will combo most people into each other (see: team UGS) and this is an extremely efficient way to punish a stray opponent. dsmash is also a strong close-quarters option that will lock in opponents who are being hit in the opposite direction with another move (e.g. Peach bair). ftilt/fair are also good options. Basically, any move that is good at hitting an opponent horizontally into your team mate is a great move to use for team combos. I would suggest looking at more videos of Peach+Sheik teams and seeing how they box in teams and punish opponents. Luckily, there a lot of high level examples of this team, e.g. Arm2k, team UGS, Armada+Ice.
Generally you will find that it is best to pin down the fastest/squishiest member (typically a space animal) and to fend off rescue attempts from the slower team member/the one with poorer approach options (e.g. a floaty). In this team, I would suggest attempting to pin down the Pit player because 1) Pit can support his team mate with arrows 2) Marth lacks a method to directly approach someone without being unsafe (e.g. a good sex kick or a good dash attack). Of course, this does not mean that you shouldn't capitalise on Marth when he is in a bad position, his weight makes him extremely susceptible to team combos which is a good bonus.
tl;dr: You need more awareness of how you can interact with what your team partner is doing to maximise punishment and maintain stage control, rather than each focusing on one person.
edit: Regarding wall cling - a jump input (i.e. x/y/tap jump, not a wall jump input) will enable you to double jump from a wall cling even if you have no jumps left, so you shouldn't be in any situations where a wall cling "steals" your jump from you.
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2003
- Messages
- 2,851
Thanks for the input. Maybe I can get some singles recorded next time so we can do "Why is my Sheik so bad in singles?"
I had no idea wall clings give you your 2nd jump back, I'll hate them a lot less now.
I had no idea wall clings give you your 2nd jump back, I'll hate them a lot less now
.
OkamiBW
Smash Champion
Jolteon and I make a great team for Sheik/TL criticism.
Esp. when one of us feels super lazy. <--
Esp. when one of us feels super lazy. <--
D
Deleted member
Guest
you guys should tell me what an asshat i played like at apex.
i like being made fun of i guess lol
i like being made fun of i guess lol
D
Deleted member
Guest
no seriously
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvLT_BE0MBQ&t=7m43s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK_0fBfOwwg&t=3m19s
keep in mind that i'm fighting ike 100% blind and i've never fought that character before, but critique me anyway
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvLT_BE0MBQ&t=7m43s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK_0fBfOwwg&t=3m19s
keep in mind that i'm fighting ike 100% blind and i've never fought that character before, but critique me anyway
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2003
- Messages
- 2,851
Got some new vids, feel free to make fun of me/critique:
Singles:
Vs. Dakpo (G&W) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz9Ks44wKXI For the lulz. Obviously G&W counters Sheik. I think this set shows a lot more about the potential and shortcomings of G&W than anything else really...
Vs. Sethlon (Marth) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOcGqvyvMZo I always sucked at this matchup, I get spaced too easily and can never make it back to the ground.
Vs. Awestin (Ness) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRieDaWwsbc Every time I figure this guy out (I beat him in winners 2-0) he adapts and wrecks me in losers. That nair edgeguard is so mean.
Teams:
With Sethlon (Marth) vs. Dakpo (G&W) and Awestin (Ness) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuF7rFs3PAo The only set I switch off of Sheik in just happens to be the only one recorded... Fun fact, I dared them to go to Skyloft and they actually listened!
Singles:
Vs. Dakpo (G&W) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz9Ks44wKXI For the lulz. Obviously G&W counters Sheik. I think this set shows a lot more about the potential and shortcomings of G&W than anything else really...
Vs. Sethlon (Marth) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOcGqvyvMZo I always sucked at this matchup, I get spaced too easily and can never make it back to the ground.
Vs. Awestin (Ness) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRieDaWwsbc Every time I figure this guy out (I beat him in winners 2-0) he adapts and wrecks me in losers
. That nair edgeguard is so mean.Teams:
With Sethlon (Marth) vs. Dakpo (G&W) and Awestin (Ness) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuF7rFs3PAo The only set I switch off of Sheik in just happens to be the only one recorded... Fun fact, I dared them to go to Skyloft and they actually listened!
Mi (Sheik) vs RAMEN (Lucario) Game 2 (WB2)
Mi (Sheik) vs RAMEN (Link) Game 3 (WB2)
aisight (Sheik) vs trahh (Fox) Game 1 (WSF)
Mi (Sheik) vs Vioxx (Fox) Game 2 (WSF)
Mi (Sheik) vs Vioxx (Falco) Game 3(WSF)
aisight (Sheik) vs Xero (Toon Link) Game 1 (LB3) Game 2 (LB3)
aisight (Sheik) vs Mi (Ganondorf) Game 1 (LF)
aisight (Sheik) vs Mi (Pikachu) Game 2 (LF)
aisight (Sheik) vs Mi (Falco) Game 3 (LF)
aisight (Sheik) vs trahh (Falco) Game 3 (GF2) Game 4 (GF2)
Mi (Sheik) vs RAMEN (Link) Game 3 (WB2)
aisight (Sheik) vs trahh (Fox) Game 1 (WSF)
Mi (Sheik) vs Vioxx (Fox) Game 2 (WSF)
Mi (Sheik) vs Vioxx (Falco) Game 3(WSF)
aisight (Sheik) vs Xero (Toon Link) Game 1 (LB3) Game 2 (LB3)
aisight (Sheik) vs Mi (Ganondorf) Game 1 (LF)
aisight (Sheik) vs Mi (Pikachu) Game 2 (LF)
aisight (Sheik) vs Mi (Falco) Game 3 (LF)
aisight (Sheik) vs trahh (Falco) Game 3 (GF2) Game 4 (GF2)
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
tony there's a lot of things I could mention but I think what will help you the most is this:
I think your low percent game needs some work. I'm seeing way too many ftilts and dash attacks which are very susceptible to CC -> punish. More DD in general and spaced fair, and you should have grabs as a goal more at low %s.
I think your low percent game needs some work. I'm seeing way too many ftilts and dash attacks which are very susceptible to CC -> punish. More DD in general and spaced fair, and you should have grabs as a goal more at low %s.
Thanks, with the lack of overall practice I get to have with competition and my own lack of watching others play I wasn't really sure where to adjust. I'll look into reworking my early stock gameplay.
tech chase is your best friend