Q&A Sheik Q's&A's/Videos/Gen Discussion

[Zankoku]

While I would agree with that for several characters, getting proper tech chases on Falco out of reaction is difficult due to his relatively quick tech animations and possessing the Shine option if you're even a little late. Tech chasing on prediction, meanwhile, is rewarding but far too silly to regularly rely on.

 

[Deleted member]

sheik's downthrow is so fast now that you can downthrow and still come out with enough time advantage to react normally, just force yourself to wait for it and stay ready for it.

i agree with adam that you have a lot to work on, but the biggest thing that stands out is that you respect shine too much. just hit him, this isn't melee where all of sheik's moves straight lose to falco's. start with fast fair nair bair oos. faster is better, then fade after the move, they all autocancel anyway.

 

[TheKittyloaf]

this is vaguely explained in the first post, but i have a question concerning shiek's down+b transformation viability for recovering. has anything drastic changed from melee? or is it just the size of the characters relative to the stage that is throwing me off, because i remember transforming into zelda for those seemingly impossible recoveries to be a lot more viable in melee than they are in M. personally, i've noticed an increase amount of time before you can startup another action after down+b-ing, and like mentioned in the thread, transforming in mid air completely kills shiek's momentum; the question is, does the time it take to transform and use farore's wind make up for itself and provide better recovery than simply keeping your momentum and using shiek's available options? thanks.

 

[Arcalyth]

The big drastic change with Transform compared to Melee is that there's a variable-length load time when loading from disc. In Melee, transforming was consistent and took a static amount of time because both characters were simultaneously in memory. This is not the case in Brawl/Project: M. When you transform, the game has to load in the new character. For this reason, if you plan on using Sheik AND Zelda in the same game for ANY reason, you ideally want to play on a setup that uses a USB loader, and want to avoid Riivolution at all costs. Hackless setups are /okay/ but USB loading yields the best load times.

Using Farore's Wind to recover as Sheik is still a viable option as long as the load times don't suck too much. You can act out of Transform on frame 1 of its completion. [edit: pre-2.6]

 

[OkamiBW]

We should ban Sheik's variable Down-B for this reason.

But you have to remember that Zelda's Up-B has a hitbox on the poof part, which can be quite useful for recovery. Also, Zelda doesn't actually suck as a character, so that's also a plus.

 

[9bit_alt]

Can Sheik's chain be useful in its current state? I know, I know... Melee.

But personally I'd like to see either a complete overhaul of the move, or at least to let it grab the ledge again.

Thing is, the chain is almost completely useless when used in the air. The thing might poke for 5 damage if you're lucky and then it immediately retracts itself, you can't keep it out. On the ground it's never been used more than a stalling box-out move or to troll somebody.

Don't get me wrong: I think Sheik is an awesome character, but that move is really bad.

I'd love to get this section of the board moving a bit, and I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about the infamous chain.

 

[ScaryPixel]

Can Sheik's chain be useful in its current state? I know, I know... Melee.

But personally I'd like to see either a complete overhaul of the move, or at least to let it grab the ledge again.

Thing is, the chain is almost completely useless when used in the air. The thing might poke for 5 damage if you're lucky and then it immediately retracts itself, you can't keep it out. On the ground it's never been used more than a stalling box-out move or to troll somebody.

Don't get me wrong: I think Sheik is an awesome character, but that move is really bad.

I'd love to get this section of the board moving a bit, and I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about the infamous chain.

Would be scary if they gave P:M Sheik a tether recovery. I APPROVE!

 

[GunBlaze]

Can Sheik's chain be useful in its current state? I know, I know... Melee.

But personally I'd like to see either a complete overhaul of the move, or at least to let it grab the ledge again.

Thing is, the chain is almost completely useless when used in the air. The thing might poke for 5 damage if you're lucky and then it immediately retracts itself, you can't keep it out. On the ground it's never been used more than a stalling box-out move or to troll somebody.

Don't get me wrong: I think Sheik is an awesome character, but that move is really bad.

I'd love to get this section of the board moving a bit, and I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about the infamous chain.

Chain Jacket. Simple.

 

[standardtoaster]

it can actually rack up damage extremely fast. check out some matches from ryoko/wavebuster. I don't have any specific clips on me, though

 

[Plum]

Would be scary if they gave P:M Sheik a tether recovery. I APPROVE!

This was in the game for a while in the early days before it went public, and it was taken out for good reason. Granted, back when she still had her tether, they fully occupied the edge ala Brawl's mechanics. It made her edgeguarding even better on top of giving her a fantastic recovery. It would still have its uses in edgeguarding with PM tether mechanics, certainly not as silly as it was with Brawl mechanics (and let's be honest, it's already very very good), but the last thing she needs is a very strong recovery. Tether recovery on her would be even better with PM mechanics too... if you try to hog her she can chain to the ledge, immediately let go and Fair you or something, or chain into a quick Up B if you let go of the edge, and more. She just doesn't need it when she's already top 3 in the game.

 

[Arcalyth]

chain beats crouch cancel... like on a peach dsmash level

 

[Blondie.]

Is the chain taken from Brawl, or is it more like the Melee chain? Or do they both work the same?

 

[Zankoku]

I think it's Brawl chain but with no tether and Melee chain's hitbox on retract.

 

[tripwire]

Im sure id find my answer easier by watching videos or reading but what are some things Shiek can do compared to Melee with her new Crawling mechanic.

 

[Arcalyth]

I like crouching with Sheik because she's so low that she can dodge a lot of attacks that way. You can wavedash>crawl to set up dtilts, crawl backward to bait stuff then WD>grab or dtilt or myriad other things...

It's just neat little ninja tricks that can be used to add flavor to your Sheik

 

[Plum]

Her crouch dodges a lot of stuff from tall characters, and crawl just makes that even better.
Also, try abusing her crawl on stages with an uneven bottom platform, like Castle Siege. When your opponent has higher ground on you your crouch dodges basically everything

 

[Arcalyth]

Oh, so there was some discussion on the chain back on Smashmods, here's some excerpts of the good parts:

Chain *******: Instant 50~100% due to an exploit in how the chain regenerates hitboxes when being dragged across the ground in a "214214 repeat" input. It sucks the enemy in and rapidly refreshes all of the chain's hitboxes.
6B 2121232321212323

Alternatively, move the stick back and forth along the bottom of your control pad, the chain should compress all of itself into a small area.

Like just give the stick a little dangle backward and twitch the chain a little.

AtG Chain: When initiating the chain in the air and then landing on the ground, within a specific frame interval such that it neither chain jackets nor causes Sheik to instantly put away her chain, the grounded chain will retain the aerial version's hitboxes. These aerial hitboxes have much better knockback and are better at effectively keeping enemies away, but can not chain **** as potently.

Chain is a fun ledgeguard
Especially vs characters who have spacie-like recoveries (like spacies!)

 

[GunBlaze]

So I gotta input reverse Hadoukens?

 

[SnatoWhato]

Here's a vid of my friend and I throwing down. He's playing as Shiek, so enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2Q8apEXWuQ

 

[BTmoney]

Here's a vid of my friend and I down throwing. He's playing as Shiek, so enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2Q8apEXWuQ

Fixed, lul
I mean, you set me up

 

[SnatoWhato]

lol I'm pretty sure the expression is to "throw down" when referring to a fight... right? I've never heard down throw.. although I get the feeling it was a joke.. referring to down throwing? Sorry.. I'm a bit slow when it comes to this stuff. lol

 

[SpiderMad]

I've never heard of down throw..

Project M changing the world one change at a time

 

[BTmoney]

lol I'm pretty sure the expression is to "throw down" when referring to a fight... right? I've never heard down throw.. although I get the feeling it was a joke.. referring to down throwing? Sorry.. I'm a bit slow when it comes to this stuff. lol

It's the move that makes Sheik one of the best characters in melee and PM. Down throw is probably the best throw in the game.

Lol no worries though

 

[SpiderMad]

Is it really still the best throw in P:M? I think Ganon's is like the closest thing to his old one now, making that probably the best

 

[SnatoWhato]

lol okay.
I rarely down throw. I usually throw up or back.. er up throw or back throw. But I assume the downthrow applies to certain characters. Cuz Sonic's isn't so great..

 

[Rarik]

Yeah it applies to certain characters, however a lot of characters do tend to have good down throws. Capt Falcon, Sheik, Link, Marth(sorta), Ganon, Mario, Luigi, TLink, Dedede, Squirtle, Charizard, Ness, Lucas, ROB, Jiggly (i think) all make good use of their down throw, probably others as well that I'm forgetting.

 

[SpiderMad]

probably others as well that I'm forgetting.

well yeah lol, should have made a list of the opposite

 

[tripwire]

Just the fact you can mix up the throws between Down/Back/Forward with Sheik lets her get great follow ups if they dont DI the right way. Forward throw leading to a Gimp easily on most characters.

 

[Gifts]

http://www.twitch.tv/shenanagans_/c/2650665

Honestly I am not very good and I chocked very hard game 3

Any tips you guys could provide? I am starting to take the game a bit more seriously and want to practice.

 

[Nausicaa]

You're doing a lot of things that help you, but you're doing a lot of things that hurt you too. Mostly, this is because you lack almost entirely the fundamental tool called Wave-Dashing.
Empty your game by removing excessive rolling, shielding and getting stuck in it, etc.
Watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhNAn8uz0M0
That's how you should aim to move, particularly against players and characters that excel at the spacing game.
Nice jokes about Down-Throws.

Crawling brings a hilarious tool to the character.

 

[DMG]

Has anyone explored boost grabbing out of Dthrow? At certain %'s and certain characters, even if they DI away, boost grabbing can still nab them. This should be known to a lot of people by now, but has anyone really taken an in depth look at who gets regrabbed/what %'s this can extend the combo? Being able to grab a few more times instead of "having" to DA or tech chase when they DI away is pretty nice imo.

 

[Jolteon]

Overtriforce does that against Peach in PAL, it works in certain situations even on DI away. In PM the angle is more favorable than it is in PAL and you can dash attack/boost grab out of Dthrow on neutral DI at a lot of %s.

As for particular %s, I'm not really sure. I could always test it at some point, though.

 

[Demna]

Hey guys, after playing Brawl competitively for a good year, I want to start playing P:M competitively as well. I started playing as Sheik and I really enjoy it. However, knowing what high leveled/top players are doing, I'm unsatisfied with what I'm doing. I'd like to ask for all the tips regarding Sheik in general, what should I use at what situation, etc. Also, what makes PM different from Melee (mechanic-wise)? I know there's B-reversal and pivot grab, is there something else?

 

[Arcalyth]

Do you have any videos?

Sheik is a very mobility-centric character with a fantastic combo and tech chase game, decent approaches (including a godlike projectile), good defenses, and average recovery. She can be played aggressively but also benefits from a good defensive game as well. On the offensive, your general gameplan should be to weave in and out of opponents ranges in order to set yourself up for a grab or dash attack (at higher percents), then exploit her punish game to the fullest. Go into training mode, or 99-stock level 1 CPU, and learn as many as Sheik's combo options as possible, especially out of her dthrow and bthrows (her two "primary" throws). She can chain grab a good portion of the cast and has reliable followups out of most of her normals.

Her defensive game is centered around baiting your opponent to fall into a grab, tilt, needle trap, or aerial. For example, WD back>ftilt is a commonly-used Sheik tactic to set up for a combo. Nair is a good defensive option, especially out of shield. Bair is good for spacing and stuffing aerial approaches. Her tilts are amazing. Jab and needles create openings for you to punish. Get creative

The main differences between Melee and PM are the inclusion of Brawl mechanics like RAR, glide toss, turn-grab, and B-reversal. The physics are the same as Melee.

 

[Demna]

Thanks, that helped

More information is appreciated (Either Broad or Narrow), thanks guys.

 

[Arcalyth]

How good is your tech skill? Having sufficient technical ability is vital to her success as a character. You need to be able to consistently and properly utilize dash dancing and wavedashing, never miss an L-cancel, be comfortable SHFFLing, etc. It's not quite as important as it is for say, Fox or Lucas but universally having good tech skill means you can focus on strategy and not on your character fumbling around.

Melee Sheik's playstyle translates almost in parallel to PM Sheik's, so watching some videos of Melee Sheik will likely help your PM Sheik. (Probably moreso than PM Sheik videos tbh)

Edit: Oh, also, Sheik thrives on the tech chase. Probably should have emphasized that a bit more in my other post. A tech chasing Sheik is a Sheik to be feared

 

[DMG]

K

1. Don't jump as much. Sheik bodies people on the ground and is very fluid on the ground. Jumping in as your initial approach is probably wrong 99% of the time. People want to SH Fair or Nair a lot, I say nay.

2. Get used to her grab mixups. Dthrow is solid, but you have Bthrow as a mixup in PM that wasn't there in Melee. Less GG Melee Dthrow, but more potential for hard reads and trickiness. Also, pick up boost grabbing as it's useful to catch certain characters if they DI away from Dthrow. In general her boost grab is really damn good, that just happens to be the most prominent example I could think of for using it.

3. Brawl stuff tends to get transferred over to PM. Brawl's Pivot grab, RAR, DACUS, Glide Toss (wasn't specific to Brawl IIRC, but is 1000x more prominent there), backward edge snapping for more recoveries, etc. Oh yeah, she can crawl in PM due to Brawl. It's kind of good/lame lol

4. You need to be aware of what options might backfire on you. At low %'s, it can be hard to tilt or smack people due to Crouch Cancel. If you can probably land a grab instead of a tilt early on, chances are you should go for it. There are exceptions, like if the opponent is in the air or did not CC, but overall smarter opponents tend to not give her that luxury very often. The cool thing about Sheik is that you usually don't have to force things on the opponent. She's pretty mobile on the ground and decently versatile, you can tend to wait and react based on what your opponent is doing. Like when you play Sheik, the gameplan doesn't have to be "Ok I need to get close and tilt/grab him". You can sit back and charge needles or try to deal with the other person's approach, or don't commit to an option while getting closer. She's pretty good at not "having" to do stuff in neutral.


There you go. Onwards to the glory of playing Sheik!

 

[Demna]

My Tech skill can handle Melee hopefully, will never know until I try, hehe. Do you know the frame data of Wavedashing? What can I convert off a wavedash as Sheik? Wavedash back to F-tilt is commonly used. What are the other conversions? Platforms highly benefit Sheik, but there are many stages with different platforms. What stages should I counterpick and why? What stages should I bann?

 

[Plum]

dmg's point about playing her at low % is really huge.
Her options don't really open up until she gets past CC range. Low % you really need to be using grabs and needles for proactive play, and your tilts and aerials largely reactive. If somebody Nairplanes at you, then sure stuff it with an Ftilt or whatever, but going in on them with an Ftilt is dangerous if they aren't past CC range. Obviously it's not all cut in stone and you'll get a feel for when generalities don't apply.
Her mobility drops heavily when you jump so it's often just better to be on the ground where she's very fluid. Staying on the ground tends to be better, but of course there are exceptions. Her Bair in particular can just outright beat almost anything stubby arm characters like Mario have when spaced well, so in that case jumping is a good option. Again it's just one of those things you have to get a feel for.
Getting the most out of her dash dance will take practice. She has a short dash dance, especially when you compare it to the likes of Marth, Fox, Falcon, etc. You have to be very precise with your DD game because of the short distance, and it can really put your positioning to the test when you want to use her DD to avoid, bait, and punish - whereas somebody like Falcon can kind of just do it for free.
Obviously you should also learn your wavedash angles. Controlling the distance of your wavedash/waveland is key for every character.
Learn walljumps on applicable stages. It opens up your recovery options, and also opens up your ledge game.
B reversals, boost grabbing, DACUS... I think what all these really boil down to is controlling your movement. It's probably the single most important thing in Melee/PM. Whatever you want your character to do should be easy for you.

 

[DMG]

I want Mario to actually fly with his cape