Sheik Changes/In-Depth Attacks/1v1 Vids Thread >_>

Zankoku · Feb 27, 2008

...Because all the other characters were getting one.

Anyway, I'll be compiling move info, changes, and videos all into this thread, and any contributions would be helpful.

Buffs

Fsmash hits harder, and severely punishes bad DI.
Vanish has very reduced landing lag.
Up+B out of shield is, oddly enough, a viable tactic since her Vanish's knockback has inexplicably been buffed to KO power.
Dsmash has a shorter cooldown time, leaving her open for a shorter amount of time than in Melee.
Her tilts have weaker knockback. While this may seem bad at first, it actually means that her tilts now combo into more tilts.
- Sheik's utilt has stronger knockback and damage, on the second hit. It can't really combo into anything, though.
Her chain recovery is actually a recovery now.
Shorthop seems a little lower than her Melee shorthop, though it might just be because of characters being larger in Brawl.
Her tag disappears when you're in Vanish.
Sheik's uthrow has less ending lag than in Melee. It's easier to follow up from this than it is from dthrow.
Sheik can crawl and cling to walls.
If you decide to Transform right after respawning, you no longer negate your respawn invincibility.

Nerfs

Dash attack and Dthrow no longer combo effectively.
- Oddly enough, when the opponent DIs fthrow or bthrow, they can be popped straight up, which causes more stun time than dthrow.
Dsmash has similar knockback, but can be DI'd extremely vertical now.
It seems to be impossible to sweetspot the ledge with Vanish from above.
Transform takes forever and a day. : (
Fair doesn't KO until 150%. Learn to use bair and nair.
- All of Sheik's aerials have been nerfed, though to a lesser extent than fair.
- On the bright side, ftilt combos into fair at 150%.
You can no longer cancel needle throwing lag by landing during the animation.
You can no longer needle cancel turnaround if you already have fully charged needles.
In fact, you can no longer do anything except throw the needles if they're fully charged.
Needles are relatively weak in Brawl, unable to cancel projectiles effortlessly like they did in Melee.
Using the Chain as an attack is rather difficult now. The non-sweetspot areas have roughly no hitstun, and characters can easily recover through any attempts to edgeguard with it.

Changes

Needles work differently. You tap B once to start charging, tap again to throw, press R all the way down or Z to stop charging, and left or right while standing to roll.
In exchange for the lack of dash canceling or dashdancing, Sheik's foxtrot isn't half bad.
Dair is... different. Sheik will pause in the air, then drop down faster than her fastfall speed with the dair.
The side hitboxes of Sheik's usmash now sends people away. Her upper hitbox still sends people straight up.

This list is based only on what RyokoYaksa and I have found from playing Sheik, and it may or may not be complete.

NOTE: All damage ratings are based on training mode, where diminishing returns is NOT in effect.

B Moves (Special Attacks)
Neutral: Needle Storm
Damage: 3% per needle, up to 6 needles at full charge
Pretty much everything about the Needle Storm's been covered in the above section, so I'll just rehash it here.

Needles work differently than from Melee. You tap B once to start charging, tap again to throw, press R all the way down to stop charging, and left or right while standing to roll. If your needles are fully charged, you will automatically throw them the next time you tap B.

Side: Chain
Damage: Not enough to matter (3% weak hit, 5% strong hit)
By hitting Side+B, Sheik throws out a chain. By holding B and rotating the control stick, you can shake the chain around. It was a pretty useless offensive move back in Melee, and it's even more useless in Brawl. It deals extremely minor damage with barely any hitstun along the chain, while the sweetspot deals minor damage and has some electric hitstun.

New to Brawl, Sheik can now tether recovery with the Chain. Just hit Side+B when you're recovering and in range of the ledge to toss the chain to the ledge, then hit A to grab the ledge. It works pretty much the same way everyone else's tether recovery does in Brawl. If you attempt to tether recovery when out of range or being edgehogged, Sheik will perform the normal Side+B Chain. (this is a bad thing for you)

Up: Vanish
Damage: 15%
When on the ground, Sheik pauses, then disappears in an explosion. When in the air, Sheik does a flip jump, then disappears in an explosion. In the time before the explosion you can control Sheik's aerial movement to a degree, and by holding the control stick in a direction, you'll go in that direction when you reappear.

Sheik's explosion does damage both when she disappears and when she reappears in another explosion. Her Vanish also has one of the stronger knockbacks among her moves, making it a viable KO attack if you can deal with the fact that there's a very obvious startup sequence.

It's practically impossible to sweetspot the ledge with Sheik's Vanish. However, landing after a Vanish will give you relatively little landing lag, making you far less vulnerable than in Melee.

Down: Transform
Damage: lol there's no hitbox
Sheik transforms into Zelda. This takes about a full two seconds to happen, so don't do it unless you're clearly safe (opponent is in the process of dying, or recovering from WAY out there).

A Moves (Normal Attacks)
Neutral
Damage: 3% first two, 1-2% rapid hits
Sheik will slash forward with her hand twice. Holding or pressing A past that point will cause Sheik to begin a rapid slashing sequence that takes a bit of time to stop.

Forward Tilt
Damage: 5%
Sheik does a twirling kick. This is a really fast attack and has low to moderate knockback. It combos into more ftilts (ACTUALLY HAPPENS - will add to consecutive hits meter), and can eventually combo into an aerial, a grab, or a smash attack. It'll probably never kill, but its knockback is amazing for comboing into something that does.

Up Tilt
Damage: 6% first hit, 7% second hit
Sheik kicks upward, then swings her leg down for a second hit. The first hit has barely any knockback and typically leads directly into the second, which has pretty decent knockback. It probably won't KO or combo, but it's useful to get your opponent off you or if your ftilt won't combo into anything else.

Down Tilt
Damage: 8%
Sheik does a sweeping kick underneath. Has a little less knockback than the forward tilt. I've mostly just been using this for mixups during shield pressure, though it might have some other uses...

Forward Smash
Damage: 5% first hit, 9% second hit
Sheik kicks forward twice. The first kick has little knockback and if not DI'd out of, will lead into the second kick, which has strong knockback. This attack can KO at around 130% without DI.

Up Smash
Damage: 12% side hit, 17-18% upper hit
Sheik thrusts her hands upward, then brings them down at an angle to her sides. The stronger, upper hit will send the opponent upward with VERY strong knockback, while the side hit will send the opponent off to the side at a slightly horizontal angle.

Down Smash
Damage: 13% strong hit, 10% late hit
Sheik breakdances. Has good knockback. Is a good move. Approved by Drephen.

Ledge Attack
Damage: 8%
Sheik pushes off of the ledge and kicks across the stage with her full body height.

Ledge Attack (over 100%)
Damage: 8%
Sheik slowly gets up from the ledge and elbows forward.

Aerial Attacks
NOTE: Witchking has alerted me to ZodiakLucien, who discovered that certain aerials are "lagless." That is, they have no additional lag from landing while performing the aerial.

Neutral Aerial
Damage: 13% strong hit, 5% late hit
Lagless: Yes
A very fast aerial with decent range. It also has pretty strong knockback, but only in the beginning part of the attack.

Forward Aerial
Damage: 9%
Lagless: Yes
A decently fast aerial with little lag. Unlike Melee, this move won't kill often. It has extremely low base knockback, though it will be able to kill at around 150%. You're better off using this for spacing or shield pressure, really.

Back Aerial
Damage: 12% strong hit, 6% late hit
Lagless: Yes
A decently fast aerial with good range and little lag. This move has about as much knockback as the nair, but only if you connect with the tip of her outstretched foot. Since it's got good range and can be spammed, though, this will probably be your best edgeguarding attack.

Up Aerial
Damage: 11% strong hit, 6% late hit
Lagless: No
You're probably noticing a pattern with these aerials. Anyway, it's fast, and has good range above Sheik. This attack now decays in power similar to nair and bair, in that the immediate strong hit can be devastating but the late weak hit barely has any knockback. Obviously, this attack sends upward.

Down Aerial
Damage: 10%
Lagless: No
It sucks. Sheik pauses in the air, then shoots down. It's her only aerial that has a laggy startup and laggy landing. A hit pops them up into the air, too, so it's pretty much useless for edgeguarding with.

Throws
Forward Throw
Damage: 7%
Sheik throws the opponent forward. Weak knockback, low knockback growth. Can be DI'd to straight up.

Back Throw
Damage: 7%
Sheik throws the opponent backward. Weak knockback, low knockback growth. Can be DI'd to straight up.

Up Throw
Damage: 5%
Sheik kicks the opponent upward. Weak knockback, low knockback growth. Can be DI'd slightly to the sides. This probably has the most potential for comboing with.

Down Throw
Damage: 6%
Sheik throws the opponent into the ground, then kicks him, popping him up. Weak knockback, low knockback growth. Can be DI'd to 45 degree angles toward either side.

SCOTU · Feb 28, 2008

Good ****. Sticky this.

RyokoYaksa · Feb 28, 2008

You can also press the Grab button (Z on the Cube) to cancel the Needle charge. In addition to being unable to use Needle turnarounds with a full charge of needles, you also can't charge and cancel them repeatedly/immediately as a fake out mechanism.

Tristan_win · Feb 28, 2008

Great post I've been wishing for someone to post up the damage ratio of Sheiks aerials

Now I can't help but wonder the lag time for each attack, can you hit someone at the lower part of their shield and avoid getting shield grab, and can the Dair still sheild stab?

Zankoku · Feb 28, 2008

Do you mean dtilt to avoid shieldgrabs? If so, as far as I can tell, lag time isn't any different than in Melee, but I don't have the necessary equipment to test frame data yet.

I don't ever remember being able to shieldstab with a dair.

Tristan_win · Feb 28, 2008

Excuse my question about hitting them lower on their shield I was thinking for some reason that the lag would be lessen with Sheik aerials but since L canceling is gone it really doesn’t matter anymore.

And yes, the dair does shield stab very well against characters such as Marth and Captain Falcon, usually though you have to hit them directly on the head with your foot but it does work pretty reliably after their shield weaken.

Zankoku · Feb 28, 2008

That's a little more difficult to do now that there's only one shield, and as part of that "feature" the shield starts off bigger and harder to stab through.

Pokec · Feb 28, 2008

Oh.

Oh.

Oh.

Oh.

Well, this isn't fair.

There ALREADY IS A SHEIK INFORMATION THREAD.

People need to look around a little more.

I worked hard to make that one.

Zankoku · Feb 28, 2008

Oh. lol, gg me. Sorry about that.

Zelda Master · Feb 28, 2008

Yay tether recoveries! xD

Thanks for the post.

Greenpoe · Feb 29, 2008

Can the chain still cancel some projectiles (e.g. Samus' charged shot)?

Yomi-no-Kuni · Feb 29, 2008

Pokec said:
Well, this isn't fair.

There ALREADY IS A SHEIK INFORMATION THREAD.

People need to look around a little more.

I worked hard to make that one.

Sorry, but this one is way better for people who are looking for advice on how to play a good sheik..
yours is more like... generall information...
not like this one

Pokec · Feb 29, 2008

Yomi-no-Kuni said:
Sorry, but this one is way better for people who are looking for advice on how to play a good sheik..
yours is more like... general information...
not like this one

So?

This thread just clutters the Sheik boards.

I'd be happy to add this info to the other thread...I'm just wanting Ankoku's permission to use it, seeing it wouldn't be fair.

And I'd like to think that people would approach a thread creator with "Sheik changes" and stuff before randomly making threads that could easily be contained in one single post.

Yomi-no-Kuni · Feb 29, 2008

sorry to tell you this, but to me your thread has close to no Organisation and is not done as pretty as this one...
all your thread has is some pictures about sheik, alot of videos and background information
i, as an owner of Brawl am not really intrested in all that (i havent seen most vids but most are beginner and other vids which you can´t learn anything from

YES i agree its stupid to open 2 times the same thread, but this one is just way better and focuses on a diffrent topic

Zankoku · Feb 29, 2008

Pokec said:
So?

This thread just clutters the Sheik boards.

I'd be happy to add this info to the other thread...I'm just wanting Ankoku's permission to use it, seeing it wouldn't be fair.

And I'd like to think that people would approach a thread creator with "Sheik changes" and stuff before randomly making threads that could easily be contained in one single post.

As I mentioned, I made this thread because I didn't notice yours at all. I approached a mod about this later and he told me that it probably isn't a big deal, which for some reason you're making it out to be.

Everything I wrote in this thread was either written by me or given due credit (Ryoko for clarifications and new info, people featured in a video). I find it rather unfair now that you feel yours takes more precedence and ought to defunct my thread simply based on age when what I'm providing information that you didn't bother to cover.

Witchking_of_Angmar · Feb 29, 2008

From ZodiakLucien's list, Shiek's lag and no lag aerials:

Sheik
-Uair: no
-Nair: yes
-Fair: yes
-Bair: yes
-Dair: no

Zane Fleia · Feb 29, 2008

Thank you Ankoku, for once again winning the entirety of the internets. The info's much appreciated! ^_^

Kricu · Feb 29, 2008

I'm just wondering (since the front aerial tilt no longer is deathly) what are sheiks killing attacks? Looks like she really got hit hard with the nerfing. Only thing that doens't sadden me is that her speed is still up. Another question is whether or not you can start a battle as sheik by holding a button down like you could in melee so you dont have to worry about transforming mid-battle. Thanks
~Kricu

Yomi-no-Kuni · Feb 29, 2008

if you click on Sheik in the menue (in the picture where it says you player name and stuff) she´ll shift into the foreground, and you´ll start as sheik
same way you do it with Pokemon Trainer

killling moves... i´d say:
Bair(edgeguard and hit right)
usmash
UpB
------
Downsmash
Fsmash
uair

so... good luck with that O.o
forget killing... just **** so hard your enemie will SD

Ogre_Deity_Link · Feb 29, 2008

I'm sorry, but I have to ask this: Where did the OP get those pics of Shiek on his sub-titles/signature? I've never found any feminene pictures of Shiek, they're all masculine. Just curious.

Zankoku · Mar 1, 2008

Mostly from DeviantArt. You just gotta keep looking : )

But my bandwidth got killed by posting my sig in Brawl General Discussion, lol.

Tristan_win · Mar 1, 2008

Ankoku, recently it was discovered that some attacks done to your opponent can cause them to trip as stated within this thread with video proof shown here. Now I know you don't own the game yet but I would highly appreciate it if next time you are able to play if you get another chance to play to repeatedly hit an opponent with some of Sheiks move to see if she can do this as well.

Zankoku · Mar 2, 2008

I didn't get to test 'cause we had a huge tournament and it took way to long as it was on a single setup... but I did get a new vid up of me. More to come, once I'm finished splitting and uploading the rest of the tourney.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=obVtTkXN31I&feature=PlayList&p=1D6BBD41EB8D24BB&index=6

Tristan_win · Mar 2, 2008

Fair enough, thank you for at least trying though and by the sound of the video you put up is very ...odd.

Zankoku · Mar 2, 2008

Yeah, the sound got completely screwed up and there was a ton of static... And I didn't want to just split it with no audio, so I did my best to get rid of the static. : \

Yomi-no-Kuni · Mar 2, 2008

i dont think sheik has tripping attacks, because all her attacks lift the enemie from the ground immidiatly(except for tapa, but thats not a low attack)

Greenpoe · Mar 2, 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgyy...erage-of-the-wpi-brawl-tournament-73266.phtml
Sheik vs. Lucas, the finals of a tournament.

Pay attention to the kill Sheik gets with vanish (if you don't notice, you'll just see Lucas fly off and not know why). It really shows how incredibly powerful that is now.

Takumaru · Mar 3, 2008

Thanks, ankoku and ryoko, for giving us a useful sheik thread. I was just thinking "why does everyone but sheik has something like this?"

I'm still bitter about losing my precious needles (Most of my melee game was based on needles). *sigh* I guess I just have to relearn everyone I used.

Tristan_win · Mar 3, 2008

That's not a very good video to show much it has improved Greenpoe as he uses his ^B on Lucas an most likely very light character at 142 damage, so knock back can't be really noted. However what did catch my eye is that he did over 15 damage.

- I feel your pain Takumaru, I'm going to really miss needle canceling.

Whiteface · Mar 3, 2008

Yes this is excellent. I for one plan on remaining loyal to sheik this will be very helpful.... Well I guess it's back to the drawing board folks

Tristan Fattest of All Kids · Mar 3, 2008

Sheik sucks in this game. The truth is Sheik is still awesome for n00b-killing, but if you wanna go pro (like me) you need to choose someone else.

Zankoku · Mar 4, 2008

Alright, I've uploaded and linked every single set I played on the Brawl tourney we had on March 1. Going all Sheik, I placed 9th out of 28 players. That said, I've learned some new things, and I'll keep this thread updated.

As always, contributions from others are appreciated.

Greenpoe · Mar 4, 2008

GreenLink said:
While the invincibility frames are shorter, some charecters with tether recoveries (the only one i am sure of is zss) can edgehog while hanging off their tether. This means they can be very low down and edgehog at the same time. (This was possible in melee but the tether lasts much longer in brawl)

Quoted in this thread. In short, the topic was discussing how now with edgeguarding/edgehugging, many character's Up B will reach the stage or ledge by hitting you off, or going right past you and onto the ledge (Marth, Fox, etc.), however, if you were hanging down (via Sheik's chain) they couldn't knock you off and get back on themselves. Edgegaurding via hanging from Sheik's chain will also make tether recoveries useless (Olimar, ZSS, Ivysaur, etc.) and often times, horizontal recoveries will be made useless as well (Fox's Illusion, Ike's horizontal recovery move, etc.).

The chain is still a wonderful edgegaurding tool, apparently! :laugh:

Zankoku · Mar 4, 2008

You can always just get some timing and edgehog by hugging at the right moment, since you've got a decent amount of ledge invincibility in this game.

Yomi-no-Kuni · Mar 5, 2008

hey greenpoe, thanks for teh Info..
ankuko, you should add it to your thread somewhere...
i didnt know that....

i mean, this makes edgehogging with sheik very valuable...

imagine...
you edgeguard with fair, rajump, and hang onto the ledge with a Tether...
then you can EITHER:
perfectly time your edgehog, so you can use your invincible frames
OR just keep hanging there... this will work against tether recoverys, without fearing to be knocked off, because you are too low, and against recoverys that go more to the side than up high, because they wont be able to attack you, and you can just hang on the edge undangered.

Another thing is: if you Edgehug, you will be unable to let go off the edge for a while, making you unflexible, if you use tether recovery, to edgehog, you will have no lag

edit: i just realized, you proposed the Bair as best edgeguarding move... i strongly disagree with this...
it might have more knockback as the Fair, but if DIed correctly (which should be the case if you go off-edge to edgeguard) most charchters (if they dont die due to high percentages) will fly so high, that they can use this move to recover (by pressing towards the stage after recovering and then floating towards it.)
the fair, has much less knockback, but the knockback is very horizontal, and will definitely make the enemie get further away from the stage, and can be followed up by more Fairs (one wont kill)
if the enemy has a good UpB, it`ll be useless, but so will the Bair, unless you can kill directly

Yomi

edit2: i have the impression that the third jump within the UpB is less flexible than it is in Melee (you cant Jump as far to the side as before...) is that correct?

Zankoku · Mar 5, 2008

The Up+B is really awkward to control... it seems to inherit your momentum, so if you were going to the right already, you'll keep going to the right and it'll be really hard to shift to moving left.

Until an effective edgeguard for KOing is found, I feel bair would still be a better edgeguard simply for racking up damage as the opponent tries to recover. : \ I mean, seriously, there's no way you'll kill with a fair, even as an edgeguard, unless they were high enough % to get KO'd by any aerial anyway.

It's not that difficult to time an edgehug. You have a significant amount of ledge invincibility, so just run off and grab the ledge when they get close to the right angle/distance for recovery. Characters like Olimar and Ike are simple enough to do this against, and most other characters are going to have enough recovery to overshoot the ledge anyway.

Also, using Chain recovery too close to the ledge will cause you to auto-grab the ledge immediately, rather than hang by the chain. So, instead of being on the stage ready for both above and below-stage edgeguarding, you're putting everything on edgehogging which took more time in the first place because you had to jump a fair distance away from the stage to set it up.

I dunno, someone will have to actually show me a video of them using any of these things effectively before I can call any of them viable.

Yomi-no-Kuni · Mar 5, 2008

hmm.. i cold try tonight, but sadly playing via internet makes everything so ****ed up you can hardly do anything, and none of my friends like brawl xD (they prefer melee)

EternalCrusade · Mar 5, 2008

Im not sure I understand how to use Shiek's chain as a tether recovery, so let me see if I have it straight. First of all, once you're in range, you have to use the chain and then you have to press the A button to make it latch on? In other words, do you have to press the A button once the chain reaches the edge, or do you wait for it to automatically latch on, and THEN press the A button to pull yourself up. Or do you not press the A button at all...? Some one please answer

Also, here's a pretty good video of Shiek vs Fox
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=WOxjceyzUqc

Zankoku · Mar 5, 2008

When in range, use the Chain and she'll automatically tether the ledge and start hanging. Press down to drop, and A to go up and grab the ledge.

Yomi-no-Kuni · Mar 5, 2008

you use the ForwardB, it will automatically latch onto the edge (if you are in range)
then you will be dangling under the edge... you can let go by pressing down, or pull up by pressing A/up or whatnot...

****.. you beat me

Sheik Changes/In-Depth Attacks/1v1 Vids Thread >_>

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