Shantae, the Half Genie Protector of Scuttle Town! (A Switch To A New WayForward)

[RetrogamerMax]

i mention you not even with an @ and you are summoned, with a santa rotty avatar as well haha

Dyllybirdy sees all and hears all. You can't escape the all knowing Dyllybirdy .

 

[Morning Raven]

I use to like Rotty, but then rabid shippers jumped on me and now I have very bitter feelings towards her.

I'm not someone who easily forgets how mean some people have been to me.

I can relate. Yang used to be my favorite RWBY character. Now, except for a few scenes, I really dont enjoy seeing her on screen since I dont enjoy the bumblebee writing or wasps.

But Rotty I always enjoy as the silver lining/optimistic comedic one. Like, the amount of discrimination that girl had gone through, and yet she's the one just happy to be included in the princess dress up sub plot and wants to keep the costume.

OK, but I would like for you to keep this in mind the next time you run into someone who dislikes Shantae due to running into some of her more obnoxious supporters, and see how that makes you feel or how fair you consider that treatment.

I've seen someone around these boards mention refusing to give Persona a chance because of some "friends" refusing to shut up about the games, only for them to end up being a favourite series once the spite was moved past. Plus that King Of The Hill episode about a green movement. Bobby joins it like he tends to with any new thing, his father Hank Hill (Mr. Propane for the unfamiliar) is skeptical at first but appreciates it when it's seen to be pretty reasonable at it's core. The problem for Bobby arises when he notices other people doing it only to look good or be hip, and Hank reassures him that what he's doing is good and shouldn't let other annoying people scare him off from doing what he likes.

I actually did that second bit twice. I refused to see MHA for a solid chunk of time because my friend was obsessed with it and didnt shut up. Just saw it recently and loved it just fine. Didnt dislike the show, but I knew I would've enjoyed more after waiting, and I did. We actually share our favorite character from it.

Unfortunately, I'm still victim to hating Pokemon's Serena because my friend went full fangirl over her and Sylveon at the release of X/Y. I've since recovered slightly and like Sylveon now, but I still despise Serena. Yes, I know it started from a poor introduction, and the hate got supplemented by amourshipping, but I can pull apart her character from a design and writing standpoint well enough to write a decently large essay to prove at least half my dislike is warranted.

 

[ChadTR]

I do like Rotty. Her arc was unfortunately rushed in TPC as the game's focus was mainly on Shantae's issues, and she might be shoehorned in HGH, OK. But I think it might just be because she's a difficult character to write for, as the authors themselves do not seem quite sure of whether her selfish, semi-insensitive (she does seem to care for Shantae at the very least) nature comes from her original pre-death personality, the influence of her "brothers" (were they brothers before death or did they become brothers "in death"? Too many questions), or simply a trait of sentient zombies in general (which doesn't seem to be the case, if the comments from other zombies in the first game is any indication). The backstory of Rotty is one I would love to see explored, alongside those of Shantae, Risky and Mimic. She certainly has irritating aspects, but she's an original, interesting character.

 

[TOY the Gamer]

I do like Rotty. Her arc was unfortunately rushed in TPC as the game's focus was mainly on Shantae's issues, and she might be shoehorned in HGH, OK. But I think it might just be because she's a difficult character to write for, as the authors themselves do not seem quite sure of whether her selfish, semi-insensitive (she does seem to care for Shantae at the very least) nature comes from her original pre-death personality, the influence of her "brothers" (were they brothers before death or did they become brothers "in death"? Too many questions), or simply a trait of sentient zombies in general (which doesn't seem to be the case, if the comments from other zombies in the first game is any indication). The backstory of Rotty is one I would love to see explored, alongside those of Shantae, Risky and Mimic. She certainly has irritating aspects, but she's an original, interesting character.

She is an interesting character, I'll give her that. But original? I dunno, I kinda want to debate that. I'm not gonna right now because it's too close to Christmas.

For me, it's gonna take some pretty specific things to happen (both with me personally and her character) for me to ever consider not giving her the cold shoulder.

 

[Planet Cool]

I voted "Yes, as an assist trophy" in the poll but would now like to change my vote to "Yes, as a fighter." Although I think she'd be great in either role. As an assist trophy, she could be something like Clefairy or Togepi. A character that can do one of several random things. In her case, that would involve her animal transformations.

Anyhoo, I only recently became a Shantae fan. I played Half-Genie Hero (just the main campaign so far) and I'm currently playing Pirate's Curse. She's a very likable character, and Sequin Land is a wonderful setting too. Scuttle Town would make a great stage in Smash.

My question is, if Shantae were playable, what would her moves be? The obvious solution is to give her several playable transformations a la Pokemon Trainer, but there's no way they'd spend so many resources on one character again. Maybe she could play a bit like Aku from Cartoon Network Punch Time Explosion, where each of her moves (including standards) briefly transforms her into something different? Her neutral special has gotta be Risky's pistol, though.

 

[MeteoRain]

My question is, if Shantae were playable, what would her moves be? The obvious solution is to give her several playable transformations a la Pokemon Trainer, but there's no way they'd spend so many resources on one character again. Maybe she could play a bit like Aku from Cartoon Network Punch Time Explosion, where each of her moves (including standards) briefly transforms her into something different? Her neutral special has gotta be Risky's pistol, though.

For her neutral special, it'd likely be the fire ball, despite how generic it is, because of how often it appeared and is usually one of her first spells. I hope they utilize the Spit Fire variation instead.
It happens to have somewhat of a resemblance to Fire Bolt from the original game and as a bonus has the nifty advantage of dividing the trio of firballs. One horizontal like usual, while the other two go 45 degrees above and below.

Her pirate gear would likely not show up in her specials before her spells/transformations. I wouldn't be ruling them out entirely though, all but the Cannon (Which I highly doubt would be picked over the Harpy for an up special.) can be worked into her physicals. The Pistol can used in her back air without much competition, the Scimitar (Boots) could probably show up in her dash attack and down air, and the Pirate Hat can be tacked on to virtually any moveset since it can be wired to the jump buttons like Peach's float.

On a personal note, I want to see the Storm Puff and how they'd approach it. It would be cool if it had an amalgamation of it's various traits throughout the series. Have it to where the Storm Puff drops a lightning bolt like the original, but you can smack it around and have it explode too. Maybe make it even more fun and allow her to command it to strike and/or explode for some nasty set ups.

 

[ChadTR]

On a personal note, I want to see the Storm Puff and how they'd approach it. [...] Maybe make it even more fun and allow her to command it to strike and/or explode for some nasty set ups.

Actually, there are the seeds of an idea for a final smash there. She could summon a storm puff and move it around to explode in some specific spot, or be able to target a limited amount of spots and have the storm puff strike those with thunder. Or even better: summon a little swarm of those that would strike at random with thunder. Food for thought.

 

[meleebrawler]

This is a controversial opinion for some, but I don't think full transformations would work very well. Many of them are too specialized and would just end up making you very predictable while active. My base Shantae uses a mix of magic (items), fighting moves and pirate gear where appropriate (no need for the pistol when you have fire spells).

Where the dancing and transformations come in is through a special that uses one of the former to trigger a state where some of Shantae's moves and actions are replaced by the latter. The monkey state affects her dash and dash attack to be smaller and faster, while spider gives a tether and powerful throws, for example. And you can have both cannon jumping or harpy flight for recovery depending on if the latter dance is active.

 

[ChadTR]

I do see the transformations being instantaneous for some moves personally, not full transformations. This would make her playing more fluid, which is a necessity in a game like Smash. Unless you build a very complex character with different moves according to the transformations (like with changes in posture in some fighting games), which is not something I see happening for a DLC character. Too much work.

I wouldn't totally mind the pirate gear being used by Shantae, but I'm not sure it's necessary for a complete moveset. Actually, I would like the pirate stuff be saved for some other characters like Guybrush Threepwood or Captain Syrup XD (or even Risky herself)

 

[meleebrawler]

I do see the transformations being instantaneous for some moves personally, not full transformations. This would make her playing more fluid, which is a necessity in a game like Smash. Unless you build a very complex character with different moves according to the transformations (like with changes in posture in some fighting games), which is not something I see happening for a DLC character. Too much work.

I wouldn't totally mind the pirate gear being used by Shantae, but I'm not sure it's necessary for a complete moveset. Actually, I would like the pirate stuff be saved for some other characters like Guybrush Threepwood or Captain Syrup XD (or even Risky herself)

Tell that to who had twice as many attacks and variations therein in his moveset than anyone else, not to mention being the first to use more complex fighting game inputs. I think I even heard in an interview once that they had to rework the engine a bit to get him to work.

Full "stance changes" are indeed likely to be too complicated (I expect them to a degree, but only changing a handful of moves or actions at a time), but it's not by virtue of being DLC. If anything, due to there not being any sort of crunch to meet a deadline for game sales like a console launch or the holidays, it seems like time constraint limitations apply more in base game development. They can simply announce a delay if they need to, and it wouldn't cause too much stress to those already playing.

 

[Planet Cool]

Sakurai loves gimmicky movesets. We can only imagine the kind of crazy stuff he'd do with a moveset like Shantae's. The more I think on it, the more I feel like her transformations don't belong in her standard Smash moveset at all. They're all too cumbersome (and maybe too predictable, like meleebrawler said). Maybe they could be worked into her Final Smash instead?

Oh, but they're Shantae's main shtick! This is hard and I'm definitely not a game designer.

Actually, I would like the pirate stuff be saved for some other characters like Guybrush Threepwood or Captain Syrup XD (or even Risky herself)

Don't forget Tetra!

 

[meleebrawler]

Sakurai loves gimmicky movesets. We can only imagine the kind of crazy stuff he'd do with a moveset like Shantae's. The more I think on it, the more I feel like her transformations don't belong in her standard Smash moveset at all. They're all too cumbersome (and maybe too predictable, like meleebrawler said). Maybe they could be worked into her Final Smash instead?

Oh, but they're Shantae's main shtick! This is hard and I'm definitely not a game designer.

The thing is, there is contention on how the transformations should work even in her own games. Some purists prefer the old "dance menu to transform" method, out of some combo of nostalgia and I guess lore that they're familiar with. Others prefer the instant access to abilities of Pirate's Curse and the latest Seven Sirens (so far). For Smash some people argue Sakurai's tendency to try to make third-parties as 1:1 to classic source material as possible to make the first method seem more likely, but I argue he only does so when it is convenient and results in good, fun gameplay.

This is why I advocate for a hybrid of dancing to change part of the moveset without completely overhauling it. You get the best of both worlds that way.

 

[SoupCanMafia]

Gentlemen, I found something of a fanart! Not necessarily related to the whole Shantae/Wario ideas, except yes, because Shantae can make Wario's outfit work somehow

 

[ChadTR]

Don't forget Tetra!

Indeed My mind tends to work in a way that occults variations of characters already in Smash, and in my mind Tetra is Zelda (17 year old spoiler?).

EDIT: oh, and it's midnight where I am so Merry Xmas everyone!

 

[Planet Cool]

Shantae x Wario is a crazy good idea (the crossover, I mean; definitely not the ship!), but it's got to be Wario Land, not WarioWare.

 

[SoupCanMafia]

Shantae x Wario is a crazy good idea (the crossover, I mean; definitely not the ship!), but it's got to be Wario Land, not WarioWare.

And if it were to work well, it would require a great amount of attention. One of which I hope that the current Nintendo leadership still has. That isn't getting into making sure it's fun to play as both Wario or Shantae and to make their modes of play distinct, from their DNA to their puzzles, among other factors.

 

[Deleted member]

Would Shantae be considered as a low budget character to be added as a fighter?

 

[SoupCanMafia]

Would Shantae be considered as a low budget character to be added as a fighter?

With considering of licensing issues? I would say that she's low budget. But with regards to the actual 3D model and everything that goes with it? I think Sakurai and Co. would want to go Top-of-the-Line, or at least Superior in terms of quality. So to get her license as a character? Not at all! But with everything else? It'll be a long and probably expensive process, especially if they want to include her transformations. And that's not getting into alternative skins, asking Virt for the licenses on his musical tracks to use/remix, and possibly creating a new map. Unfortunately, with the nature of Post FP DLC, there's a likelihood there'll be no new stages made even if a character can come in.

 

[Sunny-Zee]

Ladies and gentlemen, we interrupt your regularly scheduled thread for this special announcement... IT’S CHRISTMAS, DOODS!!

 

[TOY the Gamer]

Merry Christmas my dudes and dudettes!

 

[Shinuto]

Merry Christmas!

 

[Inoj]

Merry Christmas folks!
Hyvää joulua ja onnellista uutta vuotta!

 

[ChadTR]

Full "stance changes" are indeed likely to be too complicated (I expect them to a degree, but only changing a handful of moves or actions at a time), but it's not by virtue of being DLC. If anything, due to there not being any sort of crunch to meet a deadline for game sales like a console launch or the holidays, it seems like time constraint limitations apply more in base game development. They can simply announce a delay if they need to, and it wouldn't cause too much stress to those already playing.

It'll be a long and probably expensive process, especially if they want to include her transformations. And that's not getting into alternative skins, asking Virt for the licenses on his musical tracks to use/remix, and possibly creating a new map. Unfortunately, with the nature of Post FP DLC, there's a likelihood there'll be no new stages made even if a character can come in.

I actually think the main limitation to any chance of seeing Shantae's transformations having their own dedicated moveset is more budget than any deadline, aside from "DLC character #n needs to be released by [month]" which is probably a bit flexible, though I wouldn't bet that much on it. I don't believe that DLC characters have as much budget set for them as the base game for development, and regardless of Shantae probably costing virtually nothing to get (I believe WayForward would PAY to have Shantae playable in Smash), I don't think Nintendo perceives her as a main game/DLC sales booster, and as such I believe she would receive the quality treatment Sakurai & Co. give to all the characters in Smash, but I'm not expecting them to go over and beyond with her.

The amount of "I think" and "I believe" in that paragraph makes it clear, I hope, that this is all my own perception and opinion, feel free to disagree with me, though please be kind if you decide to rip me to shreds XP

And Merry Xmas again!

 

[meleebrawler]

I actually think the main limitation to any chance of seeing Shantae's transformations having their own dedicated moveset is more budget than any deadline, aside from "DLC character #n needs to be released by [month]" which is probably a bit flexible, though I wouldn't bet that much on it. I don't believe that DLC characters have as much budget set for them as the base game for development, and regardless of Shantae probably costing virtually nothing to get (I believe WayForward would PAY to have Shantae playable in Smash), I don't think Nintendo perceives her as a main game/DLC sales booster, and as such I believe she would receive the quality treatment Sakurai & Co. give to all the characters in Smash, but I'm not expecting them to go over and beyond with her.

The amount of "I think" and "I believe" in that paragraph makes it clear, I hope, that this is all my own perception and opinion, feel free to disagree with me, though please be kind if you decide to rip me to shreds XP

And Merry Xmas again!

Well again, exists, on a much less successful game on a much less successful console. Budget seems to affect moreso the amount of characters we get than the amount of effort that gets put in them.

 

[Dukefire]

Well, Merry Christmas everyone. Late yes.

 

[Silvera]

Hope y'all had a good Christmas.

 

[ChadTR]

Well again, exists, on a much less successful game on a much less successful console. Budget seems to affect moreso the amount of characters we get than the amount of effort that gets put in them.

Just to be sure, I see Ryu's icon there. Are you sure it's him you're talking about?

EDIT: I see what you mean now, he was DLC in the Wii U/3DS version of Smash. He might have been a lot of work for a version of Smash that was less successful than others, but... Just, that's Ryu. That's one character that anyone would have perceived as a game/DLC sales booster. He's a video gaming legend. When Capcom allows you to use Ryu in your game, you just restart development from scratch if you have to XD

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Happy belated Christmas guys. Hopefully Seven Sirens comes sooner than later in 2020 and hopefully our gal get's into Smash as well next year.

 

[meleebrawler]

Here's a load of christmas Wayforward for you guys:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[meleebrawler]

C ChadTR In the grand scheme of things I don't see how clout affects effort. Cloud is a huge icon but has a pretty straightforward moveset outside Limit, which isn't that complicated itself. It's all about how much you can balance authenticity and streamlining while still remaining fun.

 

[ChadTR]

C ChadTR In the grand scheme of things I don't see how clout affects effort. Cloud is a huge icon but has a pretty straightforward moveset outside Limit, which isn't that complicated itself. It's all about how much you can balance authenticity and streamlining while still remaining fun.

I understand your point of view. I'm just more cynical than you XP

As for Cloud, since they decided to use the materias in the stage instead of his moveset, the approach to his character was necessarily going to be pretty standard (in the game, without the materias he's not left with much to do aside from slashing). Also, he doesn't have that much history with Nintendo to begin with, so maybe Sakurai, at a personal level, didn't felt compelled to make something outstandingly original out of him. In fact, personally I understand why it happened (and FFVII remains my favourite game in the series), but I'm a bit annoyed that he's the only FF representative in Smash instead of Terra, Cecil or Faris.

Also, he's base game. If Shantae happens, she would need to make herself as DLC profitable on her name alone, and I'm still skeptical that Nintendo considers her a big seller. Hence why I think the budget invested in her character would be limited. Having a very original, very complete moveset would undoubtedly add value to her, but I'm not convinced it's the philosophy that will apply.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Man, I'm curious to see what the DLC will be like post Season Pass. 2020 come on!

 

[TOY the Gamer]

I don't think Terry was a big name they had in mind. Outside of fighting game community, not a lot of people know who he is.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I don't think Terry was a big name they had in mind. Outside of fighting game community, not a lot of people know who he is.

I bunch of people in South America and Latin American countries in general absolutely knows who Terry is. SNK/Fatal Fury/King of Fighters was insanely popular in those regions.

 

[ChadTR]

I don't think Terry was a big name they had in mind. Outside of fighting game community, not a lot of people know who he is.

SNK was absolutely huge on the arcade scene in the 1990s. Because of their bankruptcy in the early 2000s, the younger generation may not realize it. Terry was a video gaming icon back then, and so were Nakoruru or Metal Slug.

 

[Paragon-Yoshi]

I never played any SNK games. And even I knew who Terry is, long before he made it into Smash.

During the time I was totally invested in Street Fighter, I learned of the "King of Fighters" series.
Which is considered a Rival-Series to Street Fighter.

Heck, one of the recurring Street Fighter characters, Dan Hibiki, was created to make a mockery out of one of SNKs characters.
So if you are a Street Fighter fan, you should know of SNK and King of Fighters at least.
Admittedly, I never heard of Fatal Fury before, until Terry made it into Smash.
But I definitely knew about Terry Bogard, Geese Howard and other popular SNK Fighter Characters.

 

[Sunny-Zee]

I never played any SNK games. And even I knew who Terry is, long before he made it into Smash.

During the time I was totally invested in Street Fighter, I learned of the "King of Fighters" series.
Which is considered a Rival-Series to Street Fighter.

Heck, one of the recurring Street Fighter characters, Dan Hibiki, was created to make a mockery out of one of SNKs characters.
So if you are a Street Fighter fan, you should know of SNK and King of Fighters at least.
Admittedly, I never heard of Fatal Fury before, until Terry made it into Smash.
But I definitely knew about Terry Bogard, Geese Howard and other popular SNK Fighter Characters.

Same here, except for the fact that I’ve played a Neo-Geo cabinet with Metal Slug II on it at a local pizza joint when I was younger.

 

[Dukefire]

I actually grew up knowing the Metal Slug series on the arcade machines

 

[ChadTR]

Same here, except for the fact that I’ve played a Neo-Geo cabinet with Metal Slug II on it at a local pizza joint when I was younger.

I actually grew up knowing the Metal Slug series on the arcade machines

I've spent way too much of my parents' cash in those T_T

 

[Dukefire]

I've spent way too much of my parents' cash in those T_T

Yeah, one hit deaths everywhere.