Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Ffamran]

At the bare minimum, Roy really needs to not have 28 landing frames for his Dair.

 

[Shaya]

I honestly don't know what I'd buff on Roy.
But the list for Marth/Lucina stretches as fast as the eye can see.

0.5%-1% damage buffs and 2 frames off landing lag ("Shulk treatment"; more for dair I guess) would probably be the general extent of Roy's needs.
I would -kill- for aerial up-b to kill and that would bump up the character 10 spots at least (not joking; fair string someone into RIP would be insanellllllllllllllly good).

Asides from that... he's not a poorly thrown together copy and paste job, so he doesn't really need much.

However, if I wanted him to be towards Cloud's level, it would mean taking 10-20 frames of lag off his smash/dash attacks, 2% more damage on most of his moves, and I'd say aerial up-b's hitbox size would need to be increased to make it insanely hard to gimp + of course kill in the air.

And he'd still probably be worse unless applicable auto cancels were added to up air and other things.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I honestly don't know what I'd buff on Roy.
But the list for Marth/Lucina stretches as fast as the eye can see.

0.5%-1% damage buffs and 2 frames off landing lag ("Shulk treatment"; more for dair I guess) would probably be the general extent of Roy's needs.
I would -kill- for aerial up-b to kill and that would bump up the character 10 spots at least (not joking; fair string someone into RIP would be insanellllllllllllllly good).

Asides from that... he's not a poorly thrown together copy and paste job, so he doesn't really need much.

However, if I wanted him to be towards Cloud's level, it would mean taking 10-20 frames of lag off his smash/dash attacks, 2% more damage on most of his moves, and I'd say aerial up-b's hitbox would need to make it insanely hard to gimp + of course kill in the air.

And he'd still probably be worse unless applicable auto cancels were added to up air and other things.

Roy's aerial Up+B SHOULD kill (at like, 120-130% or something).

He really just needs more rewarding kill confirms or just....some more OOMPH. Shulk treatment would be nice and I'm glad we're on the same page as far as Roy's damage output (really, it does need to be scooted up. He's up close all the time, he SHOULD be doing big boy damage!)

 

[Ffamran]

They could up the growth on both Marth and Roy's U-throws... It's their kill throws, so... why not? Also, as stupid as this is, Down Smash could have a buff. Both I think Ike, Marth, and Roy's Down Smashes are all lackluster, so maybe it should do a bit more just 'cause. Random buffs, though.

Roy's aerial Up+B SHOULD kill (at like, 120-130% or something).

He really just needs more rewarding kill confirms or just....some more OOMPH. Shulk treatment would be nice and I'm glad we're on the same page as far as Roy's damage output (really, it does need to be scooted up. He's up close all the time, he SHOULD be doing big boy damage!)

It does kill, but Roy's total jump height is so damn low compared to Meta Knight and ZSS's. I mean, could you imagine what would happen if Falco had either Little Mac or Roy's Up Special? His vertical recovery would become ***, but he would have a kill confirm from his Uair just like Meta Knight and ZSS that might end up being more reliable since people rarely fall out of Rising Uppercut or Blazer.

At the same time, Boost Kick has absurd knockback growth. ZSS's last hit of Boost Kick does 4%, 50 base, and 220 growth regardless if it's grounded or used as an aerial. Roy's Blazer last hit does 8% on the grounded or 6.5% as an aerial, same base of 30, but different growths of 130 grounded and 120 aerial. The damage difference is almost double, but the growth is what matters since holy crap, ZSS's Boost Kick. Oh, and let's not mention how her Uair's knockback is also insane meaning high hit stun, low damage, and prepping you up for another trip to space.

 

[Shaya]

Well I personally find his damage output as fine (bar side-b, **** doing 8% with it). Oh and throw damage I guess?
He has jab, dtilt, edge guarding, tipper ftilt/fair/nair/bair/uair/utilt, a still pretty solid d/fthrow combination.

If aerial up-b killed what he has would be more than sufficient I would say. Otherwise it's tricky.

If Roy had Marth's up throw knock back, holy hell. It's Marth single best kill option and keeps him afloat in like all match ups.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well I personally find his damage output as fine (bar side-b, **** doing 8% with it).
He has jab, dtilt, edge guarding, tipper ftilt/fair/nair/bair/uair/utilt, a still pretty solid d/fthrow combination.

If aerial up-b killed what he has would be more than sufficient I would say. Otherwise it's tricky.

Still feels like his tippers at the very least are a bit TOO weak (.5% would be nice on them). I'm aware that's the point but a .5% thing would go a long way in helping improve his spacing reward but not dramatically in contrast to his big man tippers.

I also think Flare Blade should hit ledge people and work like a weaker Eruption. It doesn't do that atm and it's kind of in a weird spot in terms of using it outside of...edgeguarding kinda?

Also initial dash IASA buff would be the absolute holy grail which is why it won't happen. Even just by a few frames....

 

[Ffamran]

Flare Blade only having a hitbox on the explosion is freaking stupid. He's swinging a sword for Pete's sake! It should have Melee's or Ike's Eruption hitbox which have an actual sword swinging down on you.

 

[LancerStaff]

"Fencer characters"
Sakurai rants and rants and rants about fencing.
"not supposed to be good in 1v1s".

Don't try to argue the free for all stuff. Cloud is better than they are in all game modes. Unless you believe Counter is some sort of win button.
Roy is functional but not compensated for his weaknesses as much as high tiers; Marth/Lucina are not fully functional, their 'hard weaknesses' completely outweigh whatever strengths they have.

Ike is looking to be kinda obsoleted. Having a grab game that covers 0-70% easily is a huge thing to have, but Clouds' damage output and stringing of moves is truly insane and Ike is clearly underwhelming in "power" compared to Cloud.

I wonder why people forget about Shulk here. His unique mechanics aren't really separating him.

Anyway if Cloud is brought more into line (I'd say they'd be looking to reduce damage/ko power in half his moveset, possibly reducing durations on up air/down air, dtilt shouldn't be intangible but I doubt they'd change it, maybe ending frame increases in some places) he'd still be a mostly better sword character than the rest noticeably; the range, speed and [even if they cut 10-20% damage off him] strength of his moveset outclasses and he'll still shut down and invalidate because he's a fast swordsman [if he's maybe pushing into top 10 now he'd be top 20 at worse] and we'd still be here thinking to ourselves "why can't Sakurai let 4-5 other characters not be below average too?"

Cloud OP in FFAs? Yeah, no. He lacks really good kill moves not tied to limit relative to his survivability. (Remember that stock FFAs are about as balanced and fair as time 1v1s.) Then we have Marth with his F10 Fsmash which already kills at absurd percents without rage. Rage Marth is a mini Lucario, and from what I can tell that's what Vipermoon hates most about Marth's design in Smash 4.

Sakurai isn't letting other characters not be below average, as you put it, because he's balancing for FFAs.

 

[Random4811]

And this sums up the Marth/Cloud MU too.

Cloud's got better range, is (significantly) faster and has as good or better frame data on his key attacks and is stronger attack for attack.

Plus, Cloud can camp all day and projectile spam all day to force approaches. The shield weakness will hold back cloud from the very top levels (i.e. he's not sheik), but let's not forget who else suffers from poor throws.

Put simply, Cloud has simply obsoleted 4 characters entirely (Marth>Lucina, Ike, Roy). His relation to the Links is also debatable, it depends how good you think his projectile kit is.

The board seems to be arguing that the issue is said 4 were mis-designed--probably in a hope for a buff (which probably isn't coming. I think Sakurai means it when he says he's done). I'd argue Cloud is the one who's poorly designed. He's a fast, spacing berserker who can camp and kill stupid early. There's a natural comparison to Sheik who's a safe comboer who can also camp (sheik's definitely better overall at perfect play ,though). Unlike, say Sheik, Cloud completely obsoletes a significant portion of the cast.

FWIW, I'm all for a true spacing character in top tier, and I think it makes more sense for it to be Marth than anyone if for no other reason than the strict spacing requirements providing a natural strength and weakness. But it's probably never happening. I think Nintendo has concluded the Marth archetype is naturally broken. Ironically, Cloud's stupid strength is more eclipsing in the casual game than Marth's ever was and Cloud's and it looks like it'll make Marth almost disappear from the higher levels.

Ike isnt obselete, and Cloud's shield problem isnt actually that big of a deal, but it holds him back a bit in the hands of a lesser player. If you're just gonna shield grab every time I approach, im gonna feint approaches until you get used to the fient and then im gonna mix it up again. The only thing holding Cloud back at all is his recovery, and its work-aroundable. I think Cloud has the potential to win Majors, I think he's a top tier character.

Cloud is a very well designed character from a competitive and casual standpoint. He's loads of fun to play, his moveset is very flashy, and he's a cool character. Competitively, he's pretty great but he has two big problems

and competitively to say that Shiek doesnt make the rest of the cast obsolete is kinda silly. Shiek is the new Fox. She's ridiculously good and has very little wrong with her. She takes skill to play but a skilled Shiek makes any character seem obselete. Oh Zero Suit, you have a guaranteed kill combo? awesome let me never let you use it and keep you in disadvantage the whole time. I don't kill? Prove it. -gimps you at 30-

Marth was obsolete the second the game came out. Prepatch Marth was so bad, and the buffs hes recieved hasnt helped much. The nerf to shield breaker was the final kick in the balls though.

if anybody obsoleted Marth though, its Ike.

And Roy and Lucina obsoleted themselves. Despite all of Roy's fancy tech and his great stage game, he's a joke. Unless he gets some really groundbreaking, meta changing stuff someone mines out of his meta, then he's not going anywhere very far. He has as many glaring problems as Marth, just better frame data and better combo game.

And Marth in Brawl and Melee was never eclipsing to the casual game, because casuals don't know how to play spacing characters, and generally like item play a lot anyway. Sakurai's making Marth terrible is a decision i'll never understand.

Link isnt obsolete at all. His sword and Clouds sword arent even comparable, as most of links game revolves around zoning vs using well spaced sword strikes. Links fair and bair are things you dont see for the bulk of a match. If he's throwing something out in the air, its usually bombs or boomerang, or uair/dair.

 

[FallenHero]

Ike isnt obselete, and Cloud's shield problem isnt actually that big of a deal, but it holds him back a bit in the hands of a lesser player. If you're just gonna shield grab every time I approach, im gonna feint approaches until you get used to the fient and then im gonna mix it up again. The only thing holding Cloud back at all is his recovery, and its work-aroundable. I think Cloud has the potential to win Majors, I think he's a top tier character.

Cloud is a very well designed character from a competitive and casual standpoint. He's loads of fun to play, his moveset is very flashy, and he's a cool character. Competitively, he's pretty great but he has two big problems

and competitively to say that Shiek doesnt make the rest of the cast obsolete is kinda silly. Shiek is the new Fox. She's ridiculously good and has very little wrong with her. She takes skill to play but a skilled Shiek makes any character seem obselete. Oh Zero Suit, you have a guaranteed kill combo? awesome let me never let you use it and keep you in disadvantage the whole time. I don't kill? Prove it. -gimps you at 30-

Marth was obsolete the second the game came out. Prepatch Marth was so bad, and the buffs hes recieved hasnt helped much. The nerf to shield breaker was the final kick in the balls though.

if anybody obsoleted Marth though, its Ike.

And Roy and Lucina obsoleted themselves. Despite all of Roy's fancy tech and his great stage game, he's a joke. Unless he gets some really groundbreaking, meta changing stuff someone mines out of his meta, then he's not going anywhere very far. He has as many glaring problems as Marth, just better frame data and better combo game.

And Marth in Brawl and Melee was never eclipsing to the casual game, because casuals don't know how to play spacing characters, and generally like item play a lot anyway. Sakurai's making Marth terrible is a decision i'll never understand.

Link isnt obsolete at all. His sword and Clouds sword arent even comparable, as most of links game revolves around zoning vs using well spaced sword strikes. Links fair and bair are things you dont see for the bulk of a match. If he's throwing something out in the air, its usually bombs or boomerang, or uair/dair.

I agree, Marth has pretty much always been obsolete to because of Ike. The inclusion of Roy only ended up making Marth even more obsolete since he is a semi-clone of Marth and is better in almost every single way than Marth and Lucina. Honestly this character board seems like one of the places on the internet where you can say Sakurai is a ****ing idiot when it comes to balancing the game. He balances the game for FFAs with all items on and all stages, but the people who play Smash that DON'T EVEN CARE ABOUT BALANCE. If I were to say this anywhere else, people would just tell me to be grateful for Sakurai making this game(as if I am not grateful? lol). I honestly think Nintendo alone should never be trusted to try to balance a game without the help of players who know what they are talking about or devs of a competitive game that have experience being mostly or completely in control of the balance.

 

[LancerStaff]

And Marth in Brawl and Melee was never eclipsing to the casual game, because casuals don't know how to play spacing characters, and generally like item play a lot anyway. Sakurai's making Marth terrible is a decision i'll never understand.

He was though... Spacing isn't so hard that you'll never land tippers if you're a novice. And Sakurai says he's balancing for mid level play and for Glory's rules, too.

I agree, Marth has pretty much always been obsolete to because of Ike. The inclusion of Roy only ended up making Marth even more obsolete since he is a semi-clone of Marth and is better in almost every single way than Marth and Lucina. Honestly this character board seems like one of the places on the internet where you can say Sakurai is a ****ing idiot when it comes to balancing the game. He balances the game for FFAs with all items on and all stages, but the people who play Smash that DON'T EVEN CARE ABOUT BALANCE. If I were to say this anywhere else, people would just tell me to be grateful for Sakurai making this game(as if I am not grateful? lol). I honestly think Nintendo alone should never be trusted to try to balance a game without the help of players who know what they are talking about or devs of a competitive game that have experience being mostly or completely in control of the balance.

You can boot up the Miiverse stage and chances are that you're going to see somebody complaining about whoever's in the match... It's naive to say that casuals don't care about balance.

 

[Vipermoon]

Exactly. Balanced for mid level play (IMO Sheik is low tier in mid level play which is why she doesn't get nerfed anymore). Now watch these and see how Marth falls apart in high level play:

Game 2 is especially bad in the first vid

Mr. E is very good but he couldn't do anything about Ryu's damage per hit, punish game/kill setups. Same goes for ZSS (his constant rolling behind Nairo is sadly optimal in this MU due to that being a weakness of ZSS and Marth having a long distance roll).

 

[Random4811]

Cloud OP in FFAs? Yeah, no. He lacks really good kill moves not tied to limit relative to his survivability. (Remember that stock FFAs are about as balanced and fair as time 1v1s.) Then we have Marth with his F10 Fsmash which already kills at absurd percents without rage. Rage Marth is a mini Lucario, and from what I can tell that's what Vipermoon hates most about Marth's design in Smash 4.

Sakurai isn't letting other characters not be below average, as you put it, because he's balancing for FFAs.

Oh im sorry is Cloud killing with Fsmash at 70 not good enough? Or what about the fact bair kills? or uair? or usmash? or dsmash? or ftilt?

Lol no kill options XD Have you just been living in a cave since this character came out? For real, What are you on about? This character can kill ridiculously early. He has 3 spikes ontop of that, and his kills get better with rage. If he's for some reason struggling to kill, his utilt can kill. Nair and dair can convert into "ken combos" and other kill setups.

"Fencer characters"
Sakurai rants and rants and rants about fencing.
"not supposed to be good in 1v1s".

Don't try to argue the free for all stuff. Cloud is better than they are in all game modes. Unless you believe Counter is some sort of win button.
Roy is functional but not compensated for his weaknesses as much as high tiers; Marth/Lucina are not fully functional, their 'hard weaknesses' completely outweigh whatever strengths they have.

Ike is looking to be kinda obsoleted. Having a grab game that covers 0-70% easily is a huge thing to have, but Clouds' damage output and stringing of moves is truly insane and Ike is clearly underwhelming in "power" compared to Cloud.

I wonder why people forget about Shulk here. His unique mechanics aren't really separating him.

Anyway if Cloud is brought more into line (I'd say they'd be looking to reduce damage/ko power in half his moveset, possibly reducing durations on up air/down air, dtilt shouldn't be intangible but I doubt they'd change it, maybe ending frame increases in some places) he'd still be a mostly better sword character than the rest noticeably; the range, speed and [even if they cut 10-20% damage off him] strength of his moveset outclasses and he'll still shut down and invalidate because he's a fast swordsman [if he's maybe pushing into top 10 now he'd be top 20 at worse] and we'd still be here thinking to ourselves "why can't Sakurai let 4-5 other characters not be below average too?"

Shulk isnt a remarkable character. Thats why. I frequently forget that he's in the game, and I had him as a secondary for a couple of months. His frame data is terrible, and he doesnt really have anything special outside of the manando.

Ike is still a pretty great character, and one of the best swordsmen in the game. He has good match-ups with top tiers, and a lot of potential. Good fundamentals with Ike convert into really solid play no matter what, without a big tech barrier to keep him down. He has good kill power and he doesnt die easily. He has 2 recoveries, and good edgeguarding potential. Hes still in this.

He was though... Spacing isn't so hard that you'll never land tippers if you're a novice. And Sakurai says he's balancing for mid level play and for Glory's rules, too.



You can boot up the Miiverse stage and chances are that you're going to see somebody complaining about whoever's in the match... It's naive to say that casuals don't care about balance.

Spacing is pretty hard when all you know how to do is spam moves and throw items, dude. Especially when you don't even know tippers exist, which a lot of Brawl and Melee casuals didnt. It BLEW MY MIND when I found out. Part of why I mained Marth for like a year and a half was just that I was so fascinated by tippers and thought they were the coolest thing in the world.

If Sakurai balanced for For Glory, Duck hunt wouldn't literally be a broken character. he may say that, but he doesnt care about FG or any form of skilled play. All he cares about is casual FFAs. Balancing was done to 8player smash, more stages were added to it. Look at tourney mode. All either FFAs or ****tier for glory.

Exactly. Balanced for mid level play (IMO Sheik is low tier in mid level play which is why she doesn't get nerfed anymore). Now watch these and see how Marth falls apart in high level play:

Game 2 is especially bad in the first vid

Mr. E is very good but he couldn't do anything about Ryu's damage per hit, punish game/kill setups. Same goes for ZSS (his constant rolling behind Nairo is sadly optimal in this MU due to that being a weakness of ZSS and Marth having a long distance roll).

Mr. E lost in his set vs. Venom because he was playing badly. He had a good start but he kept falling into the same Focus attack traps. He literally tried the same thing that didnt work 3 or 4 times. The one time he did something that worked, it was cool, but he never did it again during the set. He also doesnt use uthrow to kill which is his fault. He took more percent then he needed to.

ZSS is a terrible MU for Marth last I knew. Blaming Marth's bad design on the MU is foolish, as even ZSS gets bodied in truly bad matchups. Some MUs are just totally disadvantageous. It was his fault for staying Marth that he lost there. Even if Marth was buffed, he still wouldnt be able to awnser ZSS effectively. You'd have to completely and totally overhaul his character to change that MU

 

[LancerStaff]

Oh im sorry is Cloud killing with Fsmash at 70 not good enough? Or what about the fact bair kills? or uair? or usmash? or dsmash? or ftilt?

Lol no kill options XD Have you just been living in a cave since this character came out? For real, What are you on about? This character can kill ridiculously early. He has 3 spikes ontop of that, and his kills get better with rage. If he's for some reason struggling to kill, his utilt can kill. Nair and dair can convert into "ken combos" and other kill setups.

Spacing is pretty hard when all you know how to do is spam moves and throw items, dude. Especially when you don't even know tippers exist, which a lot of Brawl and Melee casuals didnt. It BLEW MY MIND when I found out. Part of why I mained Marth for like a year and a half was just that I was so fascinated by tippers and thought they were the coolest thing in the world.

If Sakurai balanced for For Glory, Duck hunt wouldn't literally be a broken character. he may say that, but he doesnt care about FG or any form of skilled play. All he cares about is casual FFAs. Balancing was done to 8player smash, more stages were added to it. Look at tourney mode. All either FFAs or ****tier for glory.

Fsmash is f19 and is easily punishable by a third party thanks to the hitstun. Like I said, relative to how un-durable Cloud is he ain't killing very quick in FFAs outside of limits. Spikes in FFAs are also a poor option for him for reasons similar to why Fsmash is so risky.

Mid level play, not low. I'm assuming this means it's the point where people actually understand the whole RPS thing of shielding, attacking and grabbing at least... Understanding basic character gimmicks probably comes before that.

I agree that the balancing of the game is geared for FFAs, but definitely not 8 player. There's no decent stages to play on because either it's too hard to get kills or it's big battlefield or big FD where the edge of the stage is right next to the blastzone. Many character archetypes just don't work, especially ones focused on recovery.

 

[Vipermoon]

Fsmash is f19 and is easily punishable by a third party thanks to the hitstun. Like I said, relative to how un-durable Cloud is he ain't killing very quick in FFAs outside of limits. Spikes in FFAs are also a poor option for him for reasons similar to why Fsmash is so risky.

Mid level play, not low. I'm assuming this means it's the point where people actually understand the whole RPS thing of shielding, attacking and grabbing at least... Understanding basic character gimmicks probably comes before that.

I agree that the balancing of the game is geared for FFAs, but definitely not 8 player. There's no decent stages to play on because either it's too hard to get kills or it's big battlefield or big FD where the edge of the stage is right next to the blastzone. Many character archetypes just don't work, especially ones focused on recovery.

You mean hitlag.

Also get this discussion out of here. It's enough that I have to deal with reading this kind of thing every once in a while in CCI.

 

[LancerStaff]

Also get this discussion out of here. It's enough that I have to deal with reading this kind of thing every once in a while in CCI.

Man, just let me get this one thing off my chest before I go.

I don't understand why my thoughts on Smash's overall balance are so hated on the more competitive forums when basically anywhere else people accept it instantly. (Remember, accept =/= believe.) To be frank I'm still a bit miffed Shaya dropped a lolno when I brought it up in the old CCI... And also thankful Thinkaman lets me express myself in the new TTT thread. I'm not trying to be pushy, but when people ask me questions I'm not just going to sit there like a bump on a log.

I mean, I get that it can be soul crushing when you're told that your main is a dead end, and I've been through it multiple times albit not in Smash. Somehow I doubt that's all there is to the issue, but besides the "traditional" opinion being too deep set (which makes zero sense after Brawl) I can't think of any...

I really just don't "get" people and can't fathom why people treat this as sacrilege.

 

[Rashyboy05]

Its really more of a "we get it" thing imo. Like, I, and maybe most other people in this site, know Smash is centered around FFA so there is no point in bringing it up over and over and over again.

Edit: About Marth, I don't give a damn if Marth is low tier since I love playing as him. All I want is to make him feel more functional by fixing his moves to make them do what they are intended to do and fix his hitboxes. I will never accept that making hitboxes not matching their animation is a good idea of "character balancing".

 

[Shaya]

I'm very well aware and have fleshed out opinions on how alternate game modes shape the balance decisions made.
We all play Smash and there's not just some void between competitively interested and casual play.

You may not "get" a lot of things.
Why people don't want you to get started on that completely hearsay diatribe (not the theory, just the incessant form you take with it) is one of them.

I doubt I would've said lolno to you in that line of discussion but rather put a stop to that line of discussion produced from others, probably due to the lack of anything positive that came with it.
I said specifically here for you to not get started on this and you do so anyway. You then sign off with "before I go... <passive aggressive remarks> and <why don't people get it?>". Take away some context (like believing you don't get it) and it would be easy for me to see it as trolling.

Its really more of a "we get it" thing imo.

So short and succinct and to the point; blaaaaah why is it so hard for me to do this

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm very well aware and have fleshed out opinions on how alternate game modes shape the balance decisions made.

You may not "get" along of things.
Why people don't want you to get started on that completely hearsay diatribe (not the theory, just the incessant form you take with it) is one of them.

I doubt I would've said lolno to you in that line of discussion but rather put a stop to that line of discussion produced from others, probably due to the lack of anything positive that came with it.
I said specifically here for you to not get started on this and you do so anyway. You then sign off with "before I go... <passive aggressive remarks> and <why don't people get it?>". Take away some context (like believing you don't get it) and it would be easy for me to see it as trolling.

It's not that you shut me down, it's how you did. Not about infractions because I never received any in either situation... You just dismissed it in a single sentence, basically giving everybody else the signal to send me to the loonie bin. Thinkaman bit the bullet and took some weird looks when he told me to stop while saying there was value in what I had to say.

Just to be clear this isn't pent up issues about you but instead frustrations with how people react to what I've come up with. I mean, I wouldn't lurk around here all the time if I hated you guys.

Its really more of a "we get it" thing imo. Like, I, and maybe most other people in this site, know Smash is centered around FFA so there is no point in bringing it up over and over and over again.

Er, I get that... But it really isn't talked about that much. (People complaining about how XYZ work and how insane Sakurai is for making them what they are is a once a day occurrence in the TTT, and it's usually the older posters too.) I mean, I ask people about it all the time (not in the TTT just to be clear) and the usual response is either an awkward okaaay then or a prompt insult.

So I'm really just lost as to why people hate it from the start.

 

[Shaya]

You could've brought it up with me privately and I would've been happy to resolve your anxieties.
But what you're still not getting is that it's not the ideas but how you present them that was most of the problem.

Either someone else covered what the issue was hence I kept it to a single sentence because that's an incredibly active thread and to expect personal delicacy and care for every issue is pretty insane OR I assumed you would have understood through all the conversing what was going wrong for you.

The discussion about how the balancing of the game extends beyond competitive play or the likes of for glory is a long running one within the CCI. If I'm recalling the incident correctly the tone you had for your ideas was if they were never thought of before and you had some amazingly inspired extra insight into the area. For those who were not aware (or hadn't read Sakurai translated things over the decades) for some bizarre reason is one thing, but everyone else conversing with you was having a very hard if not futile time discussing those ideas..
(e.g. someone disagrees with your assertion that Marth is better in FFA than Cloud then you say some hyperbolic things about certain character aspects that people wouldn't necessarily agree with and it is rather a matter of not wanting to have a circular argument with someone over their opinions; especially when it is not as relevant to the context of the conversation as you want it to be).

 

[LancerStaff]

You could've brought it up with me privately and I would've been happy to resolve your anxieties.
But what you're still not getting is that it's not the ideas but how you present them that was most of the problem.

Either someone else covered what the issue was hence I kept it to a single sentence because that's an incredibly active thread and to expect personal delicacy and care for every issue is pretty insane OR I assumed you would have understood through all the conversing what was going wrong for you.

The discussion about how the balancing of the game extends beyond competitive play or the likes of for glory is a long running one within the CCI. If I'm recalling the incident correctly the tone you had for your ideas was if they were never thought of before and you had some amazingly inspired extra insight into the area. For those who were not aware (or hadn't read Sakurai translated things over the decades) for some bizarre reason is one thing, but everyone else conversing with you was having a very hard if not futile time discussing those ideas..
(e.g. someone disagrees with your assertion that Marth is better in FFA than Cloud then you say some hyperbolic things about certain character aspects that people wouldn't necessarily agree with and it is rather a matter of not wanting to have a circular argument with someone over their opinions; especially when it is not as relevant to the context of the conversation as you want it to be).

Because everybody treated my ideas as if I was claiming the world was flat. To the day people treat it as a radical idea.

And don't go putting words in my mouth. I'm not saying Cloud's a terrible FFA character. He's actually far from it... My point is that it's well within reason. Everybody's reasonably balanced in FFAs. People still think I'm crazy for saying Dorf is still on the lower end of FFAs even after the Warlock Punch buff.

 

[LordShade67]

Well, on a lighter note, congrats to Pugwest and Marss for sending Zero/Nairo AND Dabuz/Hyuga to Loser's bracket in Dubs. I know, Dubs. But yeah.

Edit: Congrats to said two for making it into Doubles Top 8, something I never thought I'd see Marth do at a NATIONAL(Smash 4 Marth, anyway)!

 

[DariusM27]

Well, on a lighter note, congrats to Pugwest and Marss for sending Zero/Nairo AND Dabuz/Hyuga to Loser's bracket in Dubs. I know, Dubs. But yeah.

Edit: Congrats to said two for making it into Doubles Top 8, something I never thought I'd see Marth do at a NATIONAL(Smash 4 Marth, anyway)!

Post replays?

 

[Vipermoon]

Post replays?

This happened today. You'll have to go to Twitch and find their sets on past broadcasts. The channel is showdowngg

 

[Kulty]

Guys,

Is this statement true? I read it on SmashWiki and I personally have to disagree on this:''As a result, Marth is one of the very few characters to have been truly nerfed in the transition to Smash 4, along withand. Though he has a dedicated playerbase in competitive play, his poor tournament results pale in comparison to his success in previous games, and he is considered to be a relatively unviable character.'' I personally feel that Marth is viable, but it's just that he struggles a lot...

 

[Rashyboy05]

Guys,

Is this statement true? I read it on SmashWiki and I personally have to disagree on this:''As a result, Marth is one of the very few characters to have been truly nerfed in the transition to Smash 4, along withand. Though he has a dedicated playerbase in competitive play, his poor tournament results pale in comparison to his success in previous games, and he is considered to be a relatively unviable character.'' I personally feel that Marth is viable, but it's just that he struggles a lot...

Call me one of Marth's "optimistic" players but I think he's somewhat viable with a secondary but he's definitely not solo viable. He's really terrible compared to his Brawl and Melee incarnations. He can still put in work but the existence of really terrible MUs like Diddy and Sonic severely cripples him.

Edit: Oh, and I heard that there is this one dude in Smashwiki who constantly edits Smash4 Marth's wiki page to make him sound terrible but I hardly use Smashwiki so I wouldn't know.

 

[Kulty]

Call me one of Marth's "optimistic" players but I think he's somewhat viable with a secondary but he's definitely not solo viable. He's really terrible compared to his Brawl and Melee incarnations. He can still put in work but the existence of really terrible MUs like Diddy and Sonic severely cripples him.

Edit: Oh, and I heard that there is this one dude in Smashwiki who constantly edits Smash4 Marth's wiki page to make him sound terrible but I hardly use Smashwiki so I wouldn't know.

I see. What only matters for me is that Marth is at least viable. Not solo viable, but at least viable. I really believe in the power of Falchion and tippers. XDD

 

[TTTTTsd]

Call me one of Marth's "optimistic" players but I think he's somewhat viable with a secondary but he's definitely not solo viable. He's really terrible compared to his Brawl and Melee incarnations. He can still put in work but the existence of really terrible MUs like Diddy and Sonic severely cripples him.

Edit: Oh, and I heard that there is this one dude in Smashwiki who constantly edits Smash4 Marth's wiki page to make him sound terrible but I hardly use Smashwiki so I wouldn't know.

The Smashwiki pages are ****ING AWFUL

They have a statement that says, and I quote, "Cloud's moveset has poor synergy".

Let that sink in and imagine how they'd cover ACTUAL WEAKER characters. It's terrible. Their Mewtwo article was rank af too.

 

[Vipermoon]

Okay but that quote from the Marth page is correct. Except for the nerf thing. Almost every character received multiple nerfs from Brawl to Smash 4 (same can be said about Melee to Brawl). Marth just received the bigger ones.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Okay but that quote from the Marth page is correct. Except for the nerf thing. Almost every character received multiple nerfs from Brawl to Smash 4 (same can be said about Melee to Brawl). Marth just received the bigger ones.

Oh it is correct, I'm simply making note of the fact that the Smash WIki page is not the best source for this kind of info.

I don't trust them at all, loool. Outside of raw data/trivia facts and the like.

 

[Reizilla]

That quote is absolutely not true. Marth's dedicated playerbase went the way of the lagless aerials. To Sheik and ZSS.

 

[Vipermoon]

That quote is absolutely not true. Marth's dedicated playerbase went the way of the lagless aerials. To Sheik and ZSS.

Oh, the famous question:

What came first? The chicken or the egg?

Is Marth bad because those dedicated players sadly dropped him or did they drop him because he was bad?

I say the latter. And at game release, he (Lucina) was the worst character in the game.

 

[FallenHero]

And at game release, he (Lucina) was the worst character in the game.

lol what?

 

[Vyrnx]

Mac's Smashwiki page used to have a (very lengthy) section dedicated to his, "underrated and hugely applicable," air game. I believe the word, "devastating," was thrown in somewhere as well.

 

[Ffamran]

Mac's Smashwiki page used to have a (very lengthy) section dedicated to his, "underrated and hugely applicable," air game. I believe the word, "devastating," was thrown in somewhere as well.

Little Mac's air game would be devastating if he could jump cancel like in Devil May Cry... But then we're reminded that other characters have better aerials and if they could jump cancel like in DMC... Let's just say Cloud, Ganondorf, and Ryu could become the scariest air fighters in the game. Video of extreme DMC4 gameplay: https://youtu.be/ORgSuIIesIE.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oh, the famous question:

What came first? The chicken or the egg?

Is Marth bad because those dedicated players sadly dropped him or did they drop him because he was bad?

I saw the latter. And at game release, he (Lucina) was the worst character in the game.

Few things:

Don't believe he was the worst, but he was bad.

I think it's column A and column B together. Lots of misinformation came from a general lack of exploration (OH HIS RANGE IS SMALLER THAN BRAWL ON EVERYTHING when we all found out it wasn't), and part of it was him being bad.

 

[Shaya]

he's bad because he has nothing good; bar tipper fsmash. A move he has literally no set ups into and is -40 on whiff with. So he has a little piece of overtuned specs to a pretty awful attack. Sure, many chars would probably love it, but that's because they probably have something that can combo into a short range 10 frame move... Marth does not.

IMO he was one if not the worst character in the game at WiiU release.
Lucina at best (and considering the cast size) was bottom 5.

Like it is no exaggeration, every move Marth has is barely above average at best and super well below average for average.

Except Up Throw, which every person who plays Marth knows carries him through a lot.

 

[TTTTTsd]

he's bad because he has nothing good; bar tipper fsmash. A move he has literally no set ups into and is -40 on whiff with. So he has a little piece of overtuned specs to a pretty awful attack. Sure, many chars would probably love it, but that's because they probably have something that can combo into a short range 10 frame move... Marth does not.

IMO he was one if not the worst character in the game at WiiU release.
Lucina at best (and considering the cast size) was bottom 5.

Still better than 3DS Doc I'm afraid. For a lot of reasons I can heartily explain. Even prolly better than WiiU Doc for a time.

 

[Vipermoon]

he's bad because he has nothing good; bar tipper fsmash. A move he has literally no set ups into and is -40 on whiff with. So he has a little piece of overtuned specs to a pretty awful attack. Sure, many chars would probably love it, but that's because they probably have something that can combo into a short range 10 frame move... Marth does not.

IMO he was one if not the worst character in the game at WiiU release.
Lucina at best (and considering the cast size) was bottom 5.

Like it is no exaggeration, every move Marth has is barely above average at best and super well below average for average.

Except Up Throw, which every person who plays Marth knows carries him through a lot.

Wait hold on though. You thought Lucina was better than Marth at release? The Lucina before her entire moveset received damage buffs HAD to be worse than Marth. Now I know what you're going to say. The old shield hitlag mechanics ruined Marth enough that he was actually worse. Like literally nothing was safe on shield on a character that gets nothing from a grab. Still, it doesn't seem right to confidently say that.

But yes FallenHero Of course Ike, Dr. Mario, Zelda, Samus, Mii Sword, whoever else I'm missing.... honestly there were so many disgustingly bad characters at Smash 4's release while at the same time there were broken (Sheik, Diddy, RosaLuma) and over-tuned (Ness, Mario, Falcon, Yoshi) ones.

What happened? I confidently believe that different people worked on each character and never compared notes. Then they ran out of time and said "F it we'll balance this messed up game very slowly over the course of over a year."

Oh yeah... so Marth. Why was he possibly the worst in the game? Nothing was ever safe on shield. His Dolphin Slash was weak. Dancing Blade was useless. Horrible damage output from grabs and attacks. All he had was Uthrow, Fsmash, Counter, Shield Breaker, and Dtilt. Those, somehow, were realistically his only good tools. Luckily everyone was so bad at Smash 4 in 2014 that Brawl Marth players were able to transfer enough skill to not get bodied that hard.

 

[Shaya]

Lucina was worse than Marth. I just switched contexts there a bit nilly willy assuming everyone would assume Marth was always above Lucina, forever.


Zelda's barely been touched and had two hit confirms that killed at release. Heck Nairo did more with zelda first month of release than most chars have today.

Samus maybe, Doctor maybe (was there anything other than damage buffs given? unless you mean 'how people knew how to play at the time'), mii sword probably, Ike was at the least better than Marth imo. Robin was considered pretty bad; probably was a little bit better.
Bowser, Marth/Lucina, Samus, Mii Sword were probably the bottom 5 "in theory" at the time.
I wonder when Jigglypuff snuck into that area.