Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[DariusM27]

Random thought of the day: Down throw up-b is ok-ish to rack up some damage on later percents.

I do this all the time. Also, guess what? If you keep doing this on opponent, you can condition them to airdodge and get a nice Bair reward for it!

 

[Shaya]

Yesterday I played 99% Roy in tournament.
I realised a pretty critical difference to Roy and Marth's down tilts I hadn't noticed earlier.

Marth's (since Brawl, glad they maintained it) stabs briefly upwards with tipper down tilt. It's actually a sub 1 frame animation so it's very hard to see (I discovered it in Brawl and no one had any idea in like 2012/2013). This means it has a bit of an anti air property (this ended up being one of the last straws of me playing Melee because I relied on dtilt being anti-air clutch too much and it pissed me off too much I couldn't do that with melee against every fast fall top tier nair).

Roy's down tilt however does not do this. It's just a straight flatty thing; like both their dtilts in melee

Why would I notice this?
Because Sonic's get up attack end lag from the ledge has him float in the air during his end lag, making him immune to Roy's down tilt.

Ain't that the best?

 

[Vipermoon]

Yesterday I played 99% Roy in tournament.
I realised a pretty critical difference to Roy and Marth's down tilts I hadn't noticed earlier.

Marth's (since Brawl, glad they maintained it) stabs briefly upwards with tipper down tilt. It's actually a sub 1 frame animation so it's very hard to see (I discovered it in Brawl and no one had any idea in like 2012/2013). This means it has a bit of an anti air property (this ended up being one of the last straws of me playing Melee because I relied on dtilt being anti-air clutch too much and it pissed me off too much I couldn't do that with melee against every fast fall top tier nair).

Roy's down tilt however does not do this. It's just a straight flatty thing; like both their dtilts in melee

Why would I notice this?
Because Sonic's get up attack end lag from the ledge has him float in the air during his end lag, making him immune to Roy's down tilt.

Ain't that the best?

How did you do with Roy?

I did notice that but I thought it was just an animation thing. I noticed that Marth's sword sort of wigged at the tip while Roy's was a smooth, controlled stab.

 

[Shaya]

3rd out of roughly 60 I think.
I lost to Sonic (one of his worst match ups IMO, similar for Marth) and Cloud (unfortunate ending where IIRC I messed up a jab combo and then got fsmashed at 60% and died because cloud is pretty balanced; I think if I hadn't resolved myself to being ****ed after that whiff of Up-B I may've been able to SDI out of it, I just didn't bother).

Cloud match up is probably better on BF/DL than expected. Platforms protect Roy more so that he can challenge the stupidly longer range aerials with bair/nair/fair more reliably.
I just hate that Cloud has absolutely nothing really punishable in his moveset. And that unless you have a projectile or something invincible you cannot gimp him. Trying to go behind him is basically a joke and he can easily reactively cover any off stage pressure with his fair or dair lol.

First tournament in I think 4ish months so it's okay.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

As a person who generally enjoyed playing Marth in past games, I feel his main issues in this game result from the mechanical changes from brawl.

The changes to the shield mechanics (primarily the nerfs to shield pushback and the increased rate at which shields regenerate) really hurt marth since it makes a majority of his pokes less rewarding and effective. This, along with the reduced reach and reward of Marth's grab, results in him struggling significantly more with shields. Patch 1.1.1's changes to the shield mechanics only exacerbate Marth's issues with shields due his sourspots being less safe on shield and sheildbreaker (one of his most rewarding options against shields) being significantly nerfed.

The changes to airdodging and the ledge mechanics also harm marth as they weaken his otherwise powerful juggle and edge guarding abilities. Many characters are able to easily escape Marth's juggle and edge guard attempts with Airdodge and immediately punish him due to Airdodges having significantly reduced endlag. This is really bad for Marth since juggling and edge guarding is where a huge portion of his reward comes from.

The removal of hitstun canceling is horrible for Marth. He doesn't really obtain any new combos (at least to my knowledge) and becomes vulnerable from a slew of combos from numerous characters like Mario, Diddy Kong, and Sheik. Combined with the aforementioned nerfs to his juggle and edge guard game, this means Marth is rewarded less than virtually every single character he faces, requiring him to win the neutral far more than other characters.

The universal increase of reach for other characters such as Mario and sheik is again terrible for Marth since he can no longer wall these type of characters out (at least nowhere near as well as he use to) resulting in him loosing the neutral more to these type of characters than he would previously.

I feel the combination of these changes result in Marth being a significantly less efficient character than he was in Brawl. I think he needs a large over haul as a character to be considered viable in the future.

Edit:Scratch that, Marth mainly needs a combo throw and a few buffs here and there be considered a viable character.

 

[DariusM27]

As a person who generally enjoyed playing Marth in past games, I feel his main issues in this game result from the mechanical changes from brawl.

The changes to the shield mechanics (primarily the nerfs to shield pushback and the increased rate at which shields regenerate) really hurt marth since it makes a majority of his pokes less rewarding and effective. This, along with the reduced reach and reward of Marth's grab, results in him struggling significantly more with shields. Patch 1.1.1's changes to the shield mechanics only exacerbate Marth's issues with shields due his sourspots being less safe on shield and sheildbreaker (one of his most rewarding options against shields) being significantly nerfed.

The changes to airdodging and the ledge mechanics also harm marth as they weaken his otherwise powerful juggle and edge guarding abilities. Many characters are able to easily escape Marth's juggle and edge guard attempts with Airdodge and immediately punish him due to Airdodges having significantly reduced endlag. This is really bad for Marth since juggling and edge guarding is where a huge portion of his reward comes from.

The removal of hitstun canceling is horrible for Marth. He doesn't really obtain any new combos (at least to my knowledge) and becomes vulnerable from a slew of combos from numerous characters like Mario, Diddy Kong, and Sheik. Combined with the aforementioned nerfs to his juggle and edge guard game, this means Marth is rewarded less than virtually every single character he faces, requiring him to win the neutral far more than other characters.

The universal increase of reach for other characters such as Mario and sheik is again terrible for Marth since he can no longer wall these type of characters out (at least nowhere near as well as he use to) resulting in him loosing the neutral more to these type of characters than he would previously.

I feel the combination of these changes result in Marth being a significantly less efficient character than he was in Brawl. I think he needs a large over haul as a character to be considered viable in the future.

Marth's airdodge game in Sm4sh is really really good. The main thing Marth needs is better landing lag or better frame data on his air attacks in general.

But tbh I think my Marth can beat any character.

 

[Buffoon]

Does Marth struggle with Link as much as Lucina?

With Lucina, it seems that she deals with an opponent who not only outranges her, but has faster moves with better priority (plus a sword that doesn't function as a massive hitbox) and superior recovery time, making it difficult to punish. And that's before we factor in the numerous projectiles Link has to keep her at bay.

 

[Raziek]

Damn, weird to see all the old Marth mains being salty as hell about Cloud.

Why don't you just play the character? I've been putting time into him on the side, it feels a lot like Brawl Marth did.

Or Robin. :3

 

[Locuan]

Or Robin. :3

I agree with this statement.

Also, Reizilla tuned in to our stream (Austin local etc etc) today I think D:

 

[Reizilla]

Ayyy yeah that was me. I had to leave for work though right after Castro and Paw lost

Damn, weird to see all the old Marth mains being salty as hell about Cloud.

Why don't you just play the character? I've been putting time into him on the side, it feels a lot like Brawl Marth did.

Or Robin. :3

Because Cloud is a poorly designed character from a terrible game.

 

[Locuan]

Ayyy yeah that was me. I had to leave for work though right after Castro and Paw lost

So you saw my Robin get bopped by his Bowser Jr.

 

[Reizilla]

So you saw my Robin get bopped by his Bowser Jr.

When they lost in winner's, I mean. But I did see your match against Sassy(?) :x

 

[Raziek]

You can call him 'poorly designed' all you want, but he's here to stay and obsoletes Marth/Lucina/Roy.

It just seems scrubby to me to not just play him instead of whining about it.

 

[Locuan]

When they lost in winner's, I mean. But I did see your match against Sassy(?) :x

Ah that was a good set I learned a few things there. Not sure if I'm right though :X

Raziek , Town & City = bad pick against ROB right?

You can call him 'poorly designed' all you want, but he's here to stay and obsoletes Marth/Lucina/Roy.

It just seems scrubby to me to not just play him instead of whining about it.

We're just a bit jealous~

But guys seriously, Cloud is fun...

 

[Raziek]

Raziek , Town & City = bad pick against ROB right?

We're just a bit jealous~

But guys seriously, Cloud is fun...

If you're bad at avoiding grabs and/or the Beep Boop, probably avoid it.

Otherwise it's just fine. Robin thrives on off-stage edge-guards against ROB, and it is very easy to get absurdly easy Fair kills on T&C.

 

[Locuan]

If you're bad at avoiding grabs and/or the Beep Boop, probably avoid it.

Otherwise it's just fine. Robin thrives on off-stage edge-guards against ROB, and it is very easy to get absurdly easy Fair kills on T&C.

Hm, interesting. I'm completely inexperienced in this character but I felt I had a much easier time maneuvering around static platforms than I did with a relatively flat stage against ROB. I do have to go offstage more. I have to sit down and analyze but I've been a bit too busy watching/reading One Punch Man /johns...

 

[Ffamran]

Damn, weird to see all the old Marth mains being salty as hell about Cloud.

Why don't you just play the character? I've been putting time into him on the side, it feels a lot like Brawl Marth did.

Or Robin. :3

I'm a new Falco main who's salty about how Cloud has a better projectile and a better Dair than Falco. Do I count as another grain of salt?

Was hyped about Cloud, found out that Down Special was actually Limit Charge and not Finishing Touch which with meter would be modified into a single-hit and not a multi-hit combo move like in Dissidia, watched sets of Cloud, didn't like how he fought, really didn't like how you have to manage meter in a game where only 1 character, Cloud, has a limit while the other 1, Little Mac, has one that just dies if he gets tumbled, and then decided... Nope, probably not playing Cloud. People can make him look cool, but not playing him. Oh, and screw him not having a normal running animation. Stupid glide. He should have glided for his dash and then moved into a run which while convoluted as hell, would still look better than a literal flying Cloud. It removes the whole this dude's running at me with a giant freaking sword to a pretty boy flying towards me.

Meanwhile, Neath, a French player who plays Roy, sparked another ember with Roy. Before, when I watched Roy's leaked footage, I felt like he was a cool character. That died for a while after seeing pretty much bland Roy gameplay until seeing Neath's Roy recently. Always liked Roy, but I HATED his "HAWH" whenever he jumped in Melee and PM. Melee Roy's voice clips were too high-pitched and obnoxious to me... then he grew up in Smash 4. Also, Bayonetta's seducing me with flashback of combos from Devil May Cry and of course, Bayonetta. Problem is I don't really like her character; the innuendos and QTEs really put me off from finishing her game. That being said, waiting on a character bundle since I'm a po' college student.

TL;DR: as a relationship history: Falco = Stockholm syndrome or indoctrination, Fox = a vocal tragedy, Ike = ex whose fire isn't there (in Smash 4) anymore, Cloud = web dating i.e. when it turns out that's not who they really are, Roy = an old flame, Little Mac = the one who I never followed up on, Ganondorf = the blind date who clicked, but Falco stole me away, Greninja, Lucina, Marth, Mega Man, Palutena, Peach, Pit, Samus, Toon Link, and Wii Fit Trainer = speed-dating or experiments, Link, Sheik, and Zelda = failed relationships, Wolf = the one who got away, and Bayonetta = the "Mrs. Robinson". I like being weird.

 

[Vipermoon]

Meanwhile, Neath, a French player who plays Roy, sparked another ember with Roy: Before; when I watched Roy's leaked footage, I felt like he was a cool character. That died for a while after seeing pretty much bland Roy gameplay until seeing Neath's Roy recently. Always liked Roy, but I HATED his "HAWH" whenever he jumped in Melee and PM. Melee Roy's voice clips were too high-pitched and obnoxious to me... then he grew up in Smash 4.

I loved HAWH. Now he only says it less than half the time during just full hops. I also miss Sheik's TOOT.

 

[Ffamran]

I loved HAWH. Now he only says it less than half the time during just full hops. I also miss Sheik's TOOT.

HAWH was soooo annoying; it was pitched enough to sound irritating. It made Sheik's TOO sound heavenly. Melee Roy was a truck horn in-game, but his victory quotes made him so cool. Smash 4 Roy sounds fine in-game and cool with victory quotes. ButGanondorf's TUCK, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCjmlxRRLVI. Also, really wished Ganondorf's jab was at least frame 4 or something so he can do pimp fists.

 

[Vipermoon]

HAWH was soooo annoying; it was pitched enough to sound irritating. It made Sheik's TOO sound heavenly. Melee Roy was a truck horn in-game, but his victory quotes made him so cool. Smash 4 Roy sounds fine in-game and cool with victory quotes. ButGanondorf's TUCK, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCjmlxRRLVI. Also, really wished Ganondorf's jab was at least frame 4 or something so he can do pimp fists.

I prefer to call it TWEKH. That one was awesome too.

 

[Ffamran]

I prefer to call it TWEKH. That one was awesome too.

And then we are reminded why Samus isn't a fast faller in Melee: BOOP-BOOP-BOOP-BOOP and *robot noises*. Oh, and to keep this Marth-related... Er... Whenever people say Smash 4 is full of anime characters, I get confused because Marth's Falchion isn't as around 6 to 8 ft long like... this.

 

[LancerStaff]

Ugh, Melee SFX. About ten seconds into a match I'd be sick of all the jump noises... Ended up tuning into AMSA Yoshi vs. a Sheik once. Not fun.

 

[Buffoon]

You can call him 'poorly designed' all you want, but he's here to stay and obsoletes Marth/Lucina/Roy.

Clearly, Marth is the poorly designed character to Cloud.

 

[DariusM27]

Pfhh. I haven't seen a Cloud my Marth can't beat.

 

[Vipermoon]

Pfhh. I haven't seen a Cloud my Marth can't beat.

It's more about the Cloud data and the Cloud vs Everyone else MUs than the Marth vs Cloud MU (which I'm not sure yet who wins but I'm leaning towards Cloud) that people are complaining about.

However, playing FG Clouds on FD-only isn't going to tell you anything about beating and not beating Cloud so you don't have to mention it.

 

[Shaya]

FD is probably one of the best stages to play against Cloud too.

 

[FallenHero]

Damn, weird to see all the old Marth mains being salty as hell about Cloud.

Why don't you just play the character? I've been putting time into him on the side, it feels a lot like Brawl Marth did.

Or Robin. :3

I'm really happy that Cloud is in this game and I am not even a FF fan (I've only played part of FF7 and I've never played another FF game in my life). I think the main problem a lot of the others have with Cloud is that he was designed a lot better than most of the sword characters in the game. Marth and Lucina are probably the two worst designed sword characters (Shulk is not really badly designed), though Marth is probably designed worse than Lucina, because at least her hitboxes work properly. I'm actually salty about Roy though, it makes no damn sense that he can do so much damage and knock-back with such a large sweet-spot that rewards what would be bad spacing for any other character, while Marth is slower, weaker, and is hands-down more difficult to play than Roy is. I don't even really care about Lucina, but I really feel bad for Lucina in this game with Roy just existing in this game.

Because Cloud is a poorly designed character from a terrible game.

lol I hope that was a joke. Cloud is probably the second best if not THE best designed sword character in the game. The only thing I can think of that was poorly designed with Cloud was his recovery not sweet-spotting the ledge at the end and his very boring looking colors. I would have to disagree with him being from a terrible game, but that is your opinion.

Ugh, Melee SFX. About ten seconds into a match I'd be sick of all the jump noises... Ended up tuning into AMSA Yoshi vs. a Sheik once. Not fun.

I never found the Melee SFX to be that bad, I love the "HWRAAAAH" sound Marth would make when he did up b or the way that Falcon yells "FALCON PUNCH". I cannot not ****ing stand hearing a Yoshi player in Melee, but strangely I love the way that the Mario Bros. SFX sound. They just sound like they are having so much fun beating up the other player like when they yell "YEEHAAAAW" or "YAHOOO". About 40% of the reason I hate Yoshi in Smash 4 is because of his annoying voice.

 

[Shaya]

Eh, I think Roy is more difficult than Marth/Lucina.

Only reason to be salty as Marth/Lucina in contrast to Roy is his sword being bigger, not having blindspots, and having mobility that actually works with a moveset that's designed as it is.
I guess grab game too.

But Roy is salty over anti-air down tilt, dancing blade and not having anything to punish people hanging on the ledge.
Like zilch, nada, zero.

 

[roymustang1990-]

Eh, I think Roy is more difficult than Marth/Lucina.

Only reason to be salty as Marth/Lucina in contrast to Roy is his sword being bigger, not having blindspots, and having mobility that actually works with a moveset that's designed as it is.
I guess grab game too.

But Roy is salty over anti-air down tilt, dancing blade and not having anything to punish people hanging on the ledge.
Like zilch, nada, zero.

Not even Roy's neutral charging b can be used for ledge punishing? :0

 

[Shaya]

Not even Roy's neutral charging b can be used for ledge punishing? :0

That's essentially my go to point to explore next, as the range is deceptive and hits flat to the ground.
It's just a slower option than most and doesn't kill uncharged.

I've yet to flesh it out personally.

 

[Vipermoon]

That's essentially my go to point to explore next, as the range is deceptive and hits flat to the ground.
It's just a slower option than most and doesn't kill uncharged.

I've yet to flesh it out personally.

Oh, oh, I know! Use DED1. It hits with Marth LMAO. But hey it is way faster than Nspecial. Bair is probably the best choice to immediete Uspecial. Hopefully you aren't the one who dies or gets on stage last.

 

[Random4811]

3rd out of roughly 60 I think.
I lost to Sonic (one of his worst match ups IMO, similar for Marth) and Cloud (unfortunate ending where IIRC I messed up a jab combo and then got fsmashed at 60% and died because cloud is pretty balanced; I think if I hadn't resolved myself to being ****ed after that whiff of Up-B I may've been able to SDI out of it, I just didn't bother).

Cloud match up is probably better on BF/DL than expected. Platforms protect Roy more so that he can challenge the stupidly longer range aerials with bair/nair/fair more reliably.
I just hate that Cloud has absolutely nothing really punishable in his moveset. And that unless you have a projectile or something invincible you cannot gimp him. Trying to go behind him is basically a joke and he can easily reactively cover any off stage pressure with his fair or dair lol.

First tournament in I think 4ish months so it's okay.

If you want to punish Cloud, press the shield button. The only things he has safe on shield are ftilt and a well spaced nair.

The problem with the Roy v Cloud MU for Roy is: Cloud is just a better character. Better range, comparable speed/better speed (im not sure, Im pretty sure limit cloud is definitely faster though), better aerials, better smashes, and all around superior frame data with good reliable auto cancels.

 

[ReturningFall]

If you want to punish Cloud, press the shield button. The only things he has safe on shield are ftilt and a well spaced nair.

The problem with the Roy v Cloud MU for Roy is: Cloud is just a better character. Better range, comparable speed/better speed (im not sure, Im pretty sure limit cloud is definitely faster though), better aerials, better smashes, and all around superior frame data with good reliable auto cancels.

And this sums up the Marth/Cloud MU too.

Cloud's got better range, is (significantly) faster and has as good or better frame data on his key attacks and is stronger attack for attack.

Plus, Cloud can camp all day and projectile spam all day to force approaches. The shield weakness will hold back cloud from the very top levels (i.e. he's not sheik), but let's not forget who else suffers from poor throws.

Put simply, Cloud has simply obsoleted 4 characters entirely (Marth>Lucina, Ike, Roy). His relation to the Links is also debatable, it depends how good you think his projectile kit is.

The board seems to be arguing that the issue is said 4 were mis-designed--probably in a hope for a buff (which probably isn't coming. I think Sakurai means it when he says he's done). I'd argue Cloud is the one who's poorly designed. He's a fast, spacing berserker who can camp and kill stupid early. There's a natural comparison to Sheik who's a safe comboer who can also camp (sheik's definitely better overall at perfect play ,though). Unlike, say Sheik, Cloud completely obsoletes a significant portion of the cast.

FWIW, I'm all for a true spacing character in top tier, and I think it makes more sense for it to be Marth than anyone if for no other reason than the strict spacing requirements providing a natural strength and weakness. But it's probably never happening. I think Nintendo has concluded the Marth archetype is naturally broken. Ironically, Cloud's stupid strength is more eclipsing in the casual game than Marth's ever was and Cloud's and it looks like it'll make Marth almost disappear from the higher levels.

 

[LancerStaff]

Cloud obsolete Ike? Not really seeing it. Don't think he obsoletes the Links either, definitely not Toon Link at least. Ike's probably better then Cloud.

Marth, Roy and Lucina are in a pickle because there's not a lot of room to move their design to be safer, even if at the cost of power. I mean, that's the Pits' gimmick. Pit's about what people expected Lucina to be if you don't remember... Unless you want to push one of them further and make a character that's essentially Sheik with a sword, I don't think you want that to happen. So, they're "stuck" being powerful. But now if you try and push them the opposite direction you're getting into Ike and eventually DDD territory.

Honestly, the whole idea of having sweetspots on every attack is holding both Marth and Roy back. They're in an awkward spot between two playstyles and both give up a lot of things for the sake of their gimmick. To be frank I don't think their outlook going forwards, in both patches and future games, is very good.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I find that Cloud is better than Ike (mobility, frame data, etc.). Cloud's strengths IMO are more relevant to the meta than Ike's which is not to say that Ike is a bad character, I think they're both great!

I find Cloud obsoletes Marth, Roy, and Lucina though. Ike has a unique niche in his grab game and some of his punish windows, but I find Cloud to be the premier viable Swordsman (I don't really count MK as a Swordsman). Which isn't to downplay Ike, he's still solid, but I find Cloud's strengths are more relevant.

In the case of them being obsoleted, it's mostly cause Cloud is insane. But a part of me believes that if Marth and Roy were actually designed better it'd be a lot less jarring of an obsoletion than it is.

 

[TurboLink]

Does Marth struggle with Link as much as Lucina?

With Lucina, it seems that she deals with an opponent who not only outranges her, but has faster moves with better priority (plus a sword that doesn't function as a massive hitbox) and superior recovery time, making it difficult to punish. And that's before we factor in the numerous projectiles Link has to keep her at bay.

>Link
>Fast

I think you need to take another look at both of their frame data.

Here's Lucina's.

Here's Link's.

 

[LancerStaff]

In the case of them being obsoleted, it's mostly cause Cloud is insane. But a part of me believes that if Marth and Roy were actually designed better it'd be a lot less jarring of an obsoletion than it is.

Thing is that they're fully functional where it counts... They're not supposed to be good in 1v1s. Unless you massively reduced the power of their sweetspots, basically making them moot in the process, they're not going to have better frame data, hitboxes, or whatever else you want to give them.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Thing is that they're fully functional where it counts... They're not supposed to be good in 1v1s. Unless you massively reduced the power of their sweetspots, basically making them moot in the process, they're not going to have better frame data, hitboxes, or whatever else you want to give them.

I'm gonna have to be real, if Marth had Roy's active frames and lack of deadzones....

He'd be noticeably better. Like, I don't even think that's a major change, it's like lining them up to match each other (like they used to MOSTLY)

PS Shaya Cloud is ******** and I'm not in denial anymore. I'm sorry I ever lied to myself ROFL this character is wack. I've had fun with him and still will going forward I'm sure.

 

[Shaya]

"Fencer characters"
Sakurai rants and rants and rants about fencing.
"not supposed to be good in 1v1s".

Don't try to argue the free for all stuff. Cloud is better than they are in all game modes. Unless you believe Counter is some sort of win button.
Roy is functional but not compensated for his weaknesses as much as high tiers; Marth/Lucina are not fully functional, their 'hard weaknesses' completely outweigh whatever strengths they have.

Ike is looking to be kinda obsoleted. Having a grab game that covers 0-70% easily is a huge thing to have, but Clouds' damage output and stringing of moves is truly insane and Ike is clearly underwhelming in "power" compared to Cloud.

I wonder why people forget about Shulk here. His unique mechanics aren't really separating him.

Anyway if Cloud is brought more into line (I'd say they'd be looking to reduce damage/ko power in half his moveset, possibly reducing durations on up air/down air, dtilt shouldn't be intangible but I doubt they'd change it, maybe ending frame increases in some places) he'd still be a mostly better sword character than the rest noticeably; the range, speed and [even if they cut 10-20% damage off him] strength of his moveset outclasses and he'll still shut down and invalidate because he's a fast swordsman [if he's maybe pushing into top 10 now he'd be top 20 at worse] and we'd still be here thinking to ourselves "why can't Sakurai let 4-5 other characters not be below average too?"

Does Marth struggle with Link as much as Lucina?

With Lucina, it seems that she deals with an opponent who not only outranges her, but has faster moves with better priority (plus a sword that doesn't function as a massive hitbox) and superior recovery time, making it difficult to punish. And that's before we factor in the numerous projectiles Link has to keep her at bay.

Sorry this got flooded out.
Both chars should be doing roughly the same, but spacing is important against Link as otherwise you're very susceptible to out of shield options, so like everywhere else Marth is probably doing better.
Link has holes in his game plan that a person has to understand to be able to overcome. They lack any move beyond their tether which can threaten within reaction speed, so being just outside their range is generally very limiting. Their fastest move is their jab at 7 frames so at the right moments he's inadequate at close range as well.
A lot of beating Link is about being in the right position (with the above in mind) and punishing what he does. On wifi it can be very difficult but offline the difference (i.e. link can't jab mix up on your shield offline, and you won't fail to punish any of his smashes offline either) is massive.

 

[TTTTTsd]

"Fencer characters"
Sakurai rants and rants and rants about fencing.
"not supposed to be good in 1v1s".

Don't try to argue the free for all stuff. Cloud is better than they are in all game modes. Unless you believe Counter is some sort of win button.
Roy is functional but not compensated for his weaknesses as much as high tiers; Marth/Lucina are not fully functional, their 'hard weaknesses' completely outweigh whatever strengths they have.

Ike is looking to be kinda obsoleted. Having a grab game that covers 0-70% easily is a huge thing to have, but Clouds' damage output and stringing of moves is truly insane and Ike is clearly underwhelming in "power" compared to Cloud.

I wonder why people forget about Shulk here. His unique mechanics aren't really separating him.

Anyway if Cloud is brought more into line (I'd say they'd be looking to reduce damage/ko power in half his moveset, possibly reducing durations on up air/down air, dtilt shouldn't be intangible but I doubt they'd change it, maybe ending frame increases in some places) he'd still be a mostly better sword character than the rest noticeably; the range, speed and [even if they cut 10-20% damage off him] strength of his moveset outclasses and he'll still shut down and invalidate because he's a fast swordsman [if he's maybe pushing into top 10 now he'd be top 20 at worse] and we'd still be here thinking to ourselves "why can't Sakurai let 4-5 other characters not be below average too?"



Sorry this got flooded out.
Both chars should be doing roughly the same, but spacing is important against Link as otherwise you're very susceptible to out of shield options, so like everywhere else Marth is probably doing better.
Link has holes in his game plan that a person has to understand to be able to overcome. They lack any move beyond their tether which can threaten within reaction speed, so being just outside their range is generally very limiting. Their fastest move is their jab at 7 frames so at the right moments he's inadequate at close range as well.
A lot of beating Link is about being in the right position (with the above in mind) and punishing what he does. On wifi it can be very difficult but offline the difference (i.e. link can't jab mix up on your shield offline, and you won't fail to punish any of his smashes offline either) is massive.

Maybe Sakurai wants you to hate Cloud so much that you become a Sith Lord and just pick Sheik :^)

Also IMO he's not seemingly pushing into Top 10, he just is, to me, a Top 10 character. Not dumb/crazy enough to be Top 5, but like, I have him in my mind at 9th or 10th place. Character is crazy, but I don't think he's like, Ryu levels of crazy. It's just so much more obvious with Cloud than it is with Ryu (and it also didn't take two patches that changed shieldstun).

All Roy needs IMO is more reliable high % kill confirms (off of grab or otherwise) and probably more damage on his tippers and a LITTLE more on most of his sweetspots that aren't smashes (USmash and FSmash are very good). His damage is one of his least exceptional traits honestly, and his disadvantage really doesn't help him.