Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Shaya]

Me looking at it in 0.25x speed makes me lean towards it not (which is to be expected)
He definitely doesn't fast fall ASAP.
SHFF = 28 frames while SH = 41 frames. You need to land on frame 36 [stay in the air 35 frames] to auto cancel fair.

Just the fast fall spark animation is throwing me off in mild confusion!_!

 

[LancerStaff]

The first thing I thought was, "what if to make Bayo less OP, Sakurai has everything that hits her do more damage"? Then she got hit by other stuff and I saw that wasn't the case lol

A f9 jab and an overtuned counter doesn't look OP to me, just sayin'.

 

[Vipermoon]

But yeah Dancing Blade 1 is weird. IDK honestly. Dash Attack and Nair did look pretty big (but how would that even work? Artificially make the sword bigger like Heavy Blade?). It could be that he has some bigger stuff for compensation on how good Corrin's range seems to be.

I was so mad when Bayo countered the Dsmash as this is like the only damage buff that I ask for yet I don't get to see it.

Looking at 0.25 speed... for sure that would have autocancelled current patch. I know because Fair's animation is basically over by the time the Marth fast falls.

Now on to shield safety:

tipper Fair: 10.5%/1.72 + 2 = 8 frames of shield stun
alleged tipper Fair: 12.6%/1.72 + 2 = 9 frames of shield stun
Uair: 9 frames of shield stun
alleged Uair: 13.65%/1.72 + 2 = 9 frames of shield stun
sour Fair: 7.35%/1.72 + 2 = 6 frames of shield stun
alleged sour Fair: 8.4%/17.2 + 2 = 6 frames of shield stun

Sadly, only tipper Fair gets safer but the rest do have slightly more push-back.

Shaya Deconfirmed the Dash Attack bigness. If you Dash Attack the ledge (where it stops you in place), the animation gets WAY bigger when compared to moving forward.

 

[Rizen]

ZSS could float for a moment just like Peach with her jet heels. Saw a gif of it somewhere shortly after the E3 demo... Same animation IIRC and obviously looked silly because of it.

Somehow I ended up talking about ZSS on the Marth forums, sorry. Anyway, ^that's ZSS' entrance animation.

 

[LancerStaff]

Anyway, ^that's ZSS' entrance animation.

You sure? I'm remembering otherwise... Like, I even remember somebody calling ZeRo something inappropriate because he didn't hold the jump button at the invitational.

 

[Aninymouse]

Rejoice, brothers. Your buffs are at hand!

Perhaps soon you might just join Sheik, Mewtwo, and Corrin in the "fantastic Fairs" club. We'd be glad to have you. Lucina gets to come too.

 

[Rizen]

You sure? I'm remembering otherwise... Like, I even remember somebody calling ZeRo something inappropriate because he didn't hold the jump button at the invitational.

Check out the start:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BYqkKsOywQ

Rejoice, brothers. Your buffs are at hand!

Perhaps soon you might just join Sheik, Mewtwo, and Corrin in the "fantastic Fairs" club. We'd be glad to have you. Lucina gets to come too.

If Marth doesn't fare well in the next patch we'll have to bare it ()

...I'll leave now.

 

[LancerStaff]

Check out the start:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BYqkKsOywQ

Pfft, I know what ZSS's stage intro looks like. Definitely wasn't that.

 

[Vipermoon]

Some of you non Marth mains will flame me for complaining but they are buffing him the wrong way.

A 2% increase in Fair is a big deal (and it probably/hopefully comes with a knockback growth decrease) but if they did that then they wouldn't touch the landing lag, autocancel, total frames, active frames, or hitbox sizes. Now, I wouldn't buff all of those at the same time but those are all things Fair (and Marth's entire moveset) needs more than it needs damage. More damage on Fair slightly improves his punish game and damage output but that's pretty much it. You still can't land because you can't fast fall (autocancel), you can't reliably threaten those below you (they took out the last frame which would be frame 9 in this game), you can't anything else except do more damage. It feels unfinished. Yes, I look at things from a design perspective, but competively, I think the other Fair buffs (esp. autocancel! Look at Diddy) I mentioned will help Marth more in the long run than damage.

 

[LancerStaff]

Some of you non Marth mains will flame me for complaining but they are buffing him the wrong way.

A 2% increase in Fair is a big deal (and it probably/hopefully comes with a knockback growth decrease) but if they did that then they wouldn't touch the landing lag, autocancel, total frames, active frames, or hitbox sizes. Now, I wouldn't buff all of those at the same time but those are all things Fair (and Marth's entire moveset) needs more than it needs damage. More damage on Fair slightly improves his punish game and damage output but that's pretty much it. You still can't land because you can't fast fall (autocancel), you can't reliably threaten those below you (they took out the last frame which would be frame 9 in this game), you can't anything else except do more damage. It feels unfinished. Yes, I look at things from a design perspective but I think the other Fair buffs (esp. autocancel! Look at Diddy) I mentioned will help Marth more competively in the long run than damage.

Naw, I get what you're saying. Rather then turning down the berserker Marth they're reinforcing it. Something is better then nothing, but hope can be better then reality.

Kinda got a similar reaction when the hype died down on Electroshock. Would of definitely preferred something unique on his arrows instead... Something like arrows that would spike for some flashy Uair > arrow > Uair trickery or perhaps a larger shot that just slowly crawls across the stage for defense. But instead we got one of the dumbest moves in the game.

Of course in my situation I still have the "smarter" Pit to use and the shear hilarity of rage Electroshock make up for it, never mind the fact that it's drawing quite a bit of positive attention to the pair. Marth, well, good luck with that.

Hey, might of been wrong before. Maybe this is Marth's big patch and he'll get something good, yaknow?

 

[Shaya]

nothing but some damage values won't be really fixing anything.

Up air potentially killing better though

Oh and considering how useless the move is for comboing.... if it now is 20% stronger then it will honestly be a big boon. Although that was kinda bairs original niche I guess? :S

Diddy's fair lost 2 damage and it went from a ghastly kill move into what is now a suitably safe poke and combo tool.

So if fast fall fairing someone near a ledge at 100% will kill that's a nice change to his game.

Still won't be giving him much beyond making some of his good match ups better though ;\

 

[Darklink401]

Upair killing earlier would be great for the character-specific dthrow upair.

I'm just excited for that nair...

Like, did ya see that nair.

 

[ReRaze]

Upair killing earlier would be great for the character-specific dthrow upair.

I'm just excited for that nair...

Like, did ya see that nair.

Didn't Shaya deconfirm that nair range buff as a potential placebo involving wierd camera angles?

 

[Locuan]

Didn't Shaya deconfirm that nair range buff as a placebo involving wierd camera angles?

On another unrelated note, that avatar is amazing.

 

[DariusM27]

Lol, you should just only let admins post threads. I said if any mistakes were in the post to let me know, lol. How hard would that have been? Geeze, D- move.

 

[Locuan]

Lol, you should just only let admins post threads. I said if any mistakes were in the post to let me know, lol. How hard would that have been? Geeze, D- move.

The Marth boards culture has a bit of a tick when it comes to misinformation. That's why we discuss unconfirmed changes in the General Thread [here]. The thread can be re-opened come Tuesday/Wednesday to discuss the changes and update it accordingly but for now let's try to keep assumptions to a minimum.

That being said, if you have any issues with a user or moderator action, please utilize Forum Support.

 

[DariusM27]

Aye aye, captain.

 

[Vipermoon]

Lol, you should just only let admins post threads. I said if any mistakes were in the post to let me know, lol. How hard would that have been? Geeze, D- move.

Incase you didn't read the stuff that's here from yesterday.

Sour Bair still does 9%. A fresh Fsmash plus fresh Bair does 23%. Fair does 12%. Sour Fair does either 7 or 8%. Uair does 13%. Dash Attack isn't bigger, it's just when a ledge stops your dash attack it ends up looking huge. Dunno about Nair but the camera is weird on that stage. Dancing Blade stales with itself and they wouldn't reduce its damage. We saw last patch that to make it connect better they like to alter knockback values. The short hop Fair in the video would have still autocancelled in this patch. Dancing Blade 1 might be less laggy, hard to say. That basically summarizes all that was discussed.

 

[DariusM27]

Well, it looks like usmash does 16% too.

 

[Vipermoon]

Well, it looks like usmash does 16% too.

It always does 16. 3% dust cloud plus sword = 16

 

[Darklink401]

Didn't Shaya deconfirm that nair range buff as a potential placebo involving wierd camera angles?

That's not deconfirming anything, it's just saying something that could be truth, could be placebo, and the possible reason FOR said placebo.
But I'm positive its at least a cosmetic change.

 

[ReRaze]

That's not deconfirming anything, it's just saying something that could be truth, could be placebo, and the possible reason FOR said placebo.
But I'm positive its at least a cosmetic change.

Well I did say potential but I guess I shouldn't have used deconfirmed.

 

[DariusM27]

Incase you didn't read the stuff that's here from yesterday.

Sour Bair still does 9%. A fresh Fsmash plus fresh Bair does 23%. Fair does 12%. Sour Fair does either 7 or 8%. Uair does 13%. Dash Attack isn't bigger, it's just when a ledge stops your dash attack it ends up looking huge. Dunno about Nair but the camera is weird on that stage. Dancing Blade stales with itself and they wouldn't reduce its damage. We saw last patch that to make it connect better they like to alter knockback values. The short hop Fair in the video would have still autocancelled in this patch. Dancing Blade 1 might be less laggy, hard to say. That basically summarizes all that was discussed.

We don't know that fair is 12% do we? It could be 13% right?

 

[Rashyboy05]

We don't know that fair is 12% do we? It could be 13% right?

Shaya confirmed that the 13% is just freshness bonus.

 

[DariusM27]

Shaya confirmed that the 13% is just freshness bonus.

Will the added damage make Marth safer on shield?

 

[Shaya]

It's 1 extra frame of shield stun.

 

[Vipermoon]

We don't know that fair is 12% do we? It could be 13% right?

We know because IIRC on a fresh stock later in the video, Marth gets another tipper Fair doing 12%.

 

[DariusM27]

I would really like some frame data/landing lag buffs

 

[Loachy]

The first thing I thought was, "what if to make Bayo less OP, Sakurai has everything that hits her do more damage"? Then she got hit by other stuff and I saw that wasn't the case lol

That is some lvl99 skepticism haha
See what you've done to us Sakurai?

 

[DariusM27]

Question, what about jab and side b percents? Are they still dealing the same damage amount in the video as current patch?

If so, why the seeming discrepancy on marth's frame data page concerning base damage?

 

[Illuminado]

Question, what about jab and side b percents? Are they still dealing the same damage amount in the video as current patch?

If so, why the seeming discrepancy on marth's frame data page concerning base damage?

You're from the states right? Wait two days. Lol. Too much speculation over a 2 minute video. We will find out real soon.

 

[DariusM27]

You're from the states right? Wait two days. Lol. Too much speculation over a 2 minute video. We will find out real soon.

Okay then maybe fair got nerfed to 8% or it stayed exactly the same, since there's definitely no way to draw any possible speculations from a 2 minute video, lol.

If you don't want to answer the question, just don't bother posting. I'll check into it after work I guess. Just making conversation... In the discussion thread...about marth.

 

[Illuminado]

Okay then maybe fair got nerfed to 8% or it stayed exactly the same, since there's definitely no way to draw any possible speculations from a 2 minute video, lol.

If you don't want to answer the question, just don't bother posting. I'll check into it after work I guess. Just making conversation... In the discussion thread...about marth.

Chill out man. No one was attacking you, so theres no need to get so defensive. We've all seen the video. There are no definitive answers. For all we know, this build could be rescinded come release day on Thursday and there will be no changes for Marth at all. They may take a completely different form. You can speculate on what you see here all you like, and I'm not stopping you from doing that, by all means. I literally just said, we will find out on the 3rd (or you guys will and I'll have to read **** about it as you know, Europe and all that) so save your energy for finding stuff then when you have it in your hands. We all want buffs as much as anyone else. Just seems a bit pointless to paw over something that you don't even know to be definite yet.

 

[DariusM27]

Not saying anyone is attacking anyone. Just posing a similar topic as the 12%fair, which is only a tentative possibility to look for.

And as I just checked, it seems in the video that db 1 and 2 both do 2% damage each... for some reason. Now, it may not be different a few days from now and I guess we'll find out, but that's something that seems out of the ordinary in the video at least.

Maybe Db will not change at all when the patch gets here. I guess we'll find out.

 

[Reizilla]

Woooo! Marth will be usable in low tier tourneys!

The characters in his tier seem more like "lower mid tier" than what I'd think of as low, but I'll take it. Time to lose to some DDDs!

 

[Vipermoon]

I think Marth's is accurate. He's literally just outside of bottom 15 (he's bottom 16). Lucina is 6 spots away, not complaining about that number but the fact that she is in an entirely different tier makes it not right (but I read the article so I know why the tiers were spaced the way they were it just sucks that stuff like that has to happen).

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Marth's is accurate. He's literally just outside of bottom 15 (he's bottom 16). Lucina is 6 spots away, not complaining about that number but the fact that she is in an entirely different tier makes it not right (but I read the article so I know why the tiers were spaced the way they were it just sucks that stuff like that has to happen).

I feel like they should've elected to use stuff like A+, A- etc. to prevent the gaps from appearing larger than they should have particularly in the case of like, Marth and Lucina esp.

Das it doe.

 

[Vipermoon]

I feel like they should've elected to use stuff like A+, A- etc. to prevent the gaps from appearing larger than they should have particularly in the case of like, Marth and Lucina esp.

Das it doe.

That's also true. I hate how many letters there are. But what I was talking about is how Marth is in "Low" and Lucina is in "Bottom" This makes the difference seem big.

 

[Ffamran]

That's also true. I hate how many letters there are. But what I was talking about is how Marth is in "Low" and Lucina is in "Bottom" This makes the difference seem big.

I would have went with this...

​

High ------

​

​

Middle ----

​

​

Low -------

​

Problem is formatting it... I don't know why the outdent and intent buttons aren't working, but whatever. Where the tiers are is just what they are. So, middle would be mid-tier with up as high-mid and down as low-mid. For low, because it there used to be bottom... Eh, it's still low in general and you could consider the top as "high-high-mid" or "almost-mid", but it would be semantics at that point. Also, yes, where the top and bottom can be considered that: the top and bottom tiers. Going in extremes in this case as the top tiers are just 3 characters while bottom is 6.

​

That being said, some might prefer the + / - approach, the alphabetical approach, or even something weird like matters / relevant and doesn't matters / irrelevant which would be a brutal tier list of like 10 characters in matters and everyone else in does not matter. Granted, it would be an easy way to see what the meta is like considering that yes, there are pretty much only 10 characters commonly seen placing exceptionally while the rest are just there.

 

[Spc2799]

Welp guys I wouldn't consider myself an expert on Marth but all of the stuff i saw in that short video at least looked a bit promising. i could tell that it was nothing TOO major but then again its hard to tell with the small sample size we were given. I'm excited for wednesday, Corrin/Bayo should be hype... but the real hope is that we are blessed with buffs. CROSSING MY FINGERS!

I'm new to posting on smashboards and seeing as this is the Marth board (essentially my home base) its nice to meet you all and i hope we can all be good friends. I'm really excited to learn and practice along with you guys and get better as i go. Cheers.