Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Zano]

I was about to say who it was but ye. Sakurai responded jokingly about it and knew he was joking, wasn't meant to be serious but everyone took it that way as another way to stab at the competitive smash community, kinda dumb.

 

[Locuan]

Well, today I played singles against some of the PR community. Before I begin my recap... A great Wii Fit Trainer is incredibly scary.
Anyways, aside from that. I think the match-up against Shiek is all about patience. Retreating Bairs or Fairs where for the most part, ok as spacing tools in those moments that my opponent was trying to be aggressive/approach. I tried implementing short hop airdodges into the mix when I tried to approach but Shiek's attacks are so crazy good that even though I may have dodged one the next attack is already hitting me. For the most part, I started cutting down a bit on the use of d-tilt. A raw Fair chain attempt by Shiek will maintain Shiek in the air so hitting with d-tilt would be difficult. I tried to test if DI'ing up and away while in a Fair string would let me input a Nair in order to disrupt it. Sometimes it did work but I am still not sure if it had to do with my opponent screwing the timing over. There where other things I should have tried to test but we had only one setup. Can anyone offer a bit more insight to check if these observations could be relevant? Are there better responses to the situations I mentioned?

 

[kj22]

Well, today I played singles against some of the PR community. Before I begin my recap... A great Wii Fit Trainer is incredibly scary.
Anyways, aside from that. I think the match-up against Shiek is all about patience. Retreating Bairs or Fairs where for the most part, ok as spacing tools in those moments that my opponent was trying to be aggressive/approach. I tried implementing short hop airdodges into the mix when I tried to approach but Shiek's attacks are so crazy good that even though I may have dodged one the next attack is already hitting me. For the most part, I started cutting down a bit on the use of d-tilt. A raw Fair chain attempt by Shiek will maintain Shiek in the air so hitting with d-tilt would be difficult. I tried to test if DI'ing up and away while in a Fair string would let me input a Nair in order to disrupt it. Sometimes it did work but I am still not sure if it had to do with my opponent screwing the timing over. There where other things I should have tried to test but we had only one setup. Can anyone offer a bit more insight to check if these observations could be relevant? Are there better responses to the situations I mentioned?

First and foremost, I hope you had fun playing!(:

Hmm what made wft scary for you? I did play one in tourney, k remember he could kinda plank with the soccer ball and sun salutation.

I think it may be a true combo of the openent doesn't screw up. If you're desperate to get out of it counter or upb might get you out I'm not sure, otherwise hold any direction away from shiek and save your double jump. You do not wanna get fair chained without a jump.

I agree with less dtilt, but you can still crouch like you're going to dtilt then hit the cstick forwards and marth should ftilt. You can add perfect pivot ftilts/jabs or dash away sliding ftilt to your defensive option sheet.

I haven't played a shiek yet so it can't offer that much help, this is all I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Shaya]

At a lot of percent, sheik fair chains executed properly combo Marth like... 5ever, 2 or 3 usually before being too far away for fair, but reverse bair or bouncing fish will reach/combo if you don't DI or react perfectly; the best sheiks will know not to go for that extra fair that will whiff while bair/fish will hit.

Sheik is perhaps the best character in the game still. Her fair spacing/chaining is harder than Diddy's shilly shtuff T_T, but my goodness is it more damaging and always puts you offstage where sheik's bair > every character's options and you have to respect fish, a reactable punish to any of marth's aerials whiffing. DB1 for air stalling is somewhat usable at certain heights that aren't within immediate reach of Sheik (it's a LOT of space off stage) but if you use your mid air jump you could get killed for it, it should only be used for the definitive recovery.

 

[Locuan]

WFT is just an awkward character to play against, I had no idea how she played when I got into the match-up. Thanks for the advice though! I have a few things I still want to test regarding the Shiek Match-up. I'll work on it the next time I play against them. The next tournament here is the third of January, I will be training a lot to hopefully do well there. It will be streamed so I hope I can do well. I have been using a lot of the DB air trap that @ Emblem Lord and @ EternalFlame had explained to me before. Baiting the air dodge against opponents after launching them upwards with the final DB hit is great. However, is this something you guys still perform against short characters?

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I had tested out Perfect Pivot's for both Marth and Lucina on the 3DS since it's what I had accessible. These where the parameters:

1. 3DS version (Its what I had available at the moment.)
2. Green Hill Zone FD version.
3. Stand at the rightmost area of the stage.
4. Perform perfect pivot from left to right.
5. Count the amount of squares traversed on the floor.

I tested both characters and I could not get either to traverse a bit more than 3.5 squares. @Duet back on the Lucina board thread regarding perfect pivot tested it out on the Wii U and posted videos with what he had found. And he also could not get them to to traverse more distance than the other. Has anyone else been able to test?

 

[dizney]

WFT is just an awkward character to play against, I had no idea how she played when I got into the match-up. Thanks for the advice though! I have a few things I still want to test regarding the Shiek Match-up. I'll work on it the next time I play against them. The next tournament here is the third of January, I will be training a lot to hopefully do well there. It will be streamed so I hope I can do well. I have been using a lot of the DB air trap that @ Emblem Lord and @ EternalFlame had explained to me before. Baiting the air dodge against opponents after launching them upwards with the final DB hit is great. However, is this something you guys still perform against short characters?

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I had tested out Perfect Pivot's for both Marth and Lucina on the 3DS since it's what I had accessible. These where the parameters:

1. 3DS version (Its what I had available at the moment.)
2. Green Hill Zone FD version.
3. Stand at the rightmost area of the stage.
4. Perform perfect pivot from left to right.
5. Count the amount of squares traversed on the floor.

I tested both characters and I could not get either to traverse a bit more than 3.5 squares. @Duet back on the Lucina board thread regarding perfect pivot tested it out on the Wii U and posted videos with what he had found. And he also could not get them to to traverse more distance than the other. Has anyone else been able to test?

On the Wii U, I tested on Final Destination, and just mapped the distance based on where the left foot lands, and they seem to be exactly the same

 

[EternalFlame]

WFT is just an awkward character to play against, I had no idea how she played when I got into the match-up. Thanks for the advice though! I have a few things I still want to test regarding the Shiek Match-up. I'll work on it the next time I play against them. The next tournament here is the third of January, I will be training a lot to hopefully do well there. It will be streamed so I hope I can do well. I have been using a lot of the DB air trap that @ Emblem Lord and @ EternalFlame had explained to me before. Baiting the air dodge against opponents after launching them upwards with the final DB hit is great. However, is this something you guys still perform against short characters?

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I had tested out Perfect Pivot's for both Marth and Lucina on the 3DS since it's what I had accessible. These where the parameters:

1. 3DS version (Its what I had available at the moment.)
2. Green Hill Zone FD version.
3. Stand at the rightmost area of the stage.
4. Perform perfect pivot from left to right.
5. Count the amount of squares traversed on the floor.

I tested both characters and I could not get either to traverse a bit more than 3.5 squares. @Duet back on the Lucina board thread regarding perfect pivot tested it out on the Wii U and posted videos with what he had found. And he also could not get them to to traverse more distance than the other. Has anyone else been able to test?

The air db trap will work no matter the height, though the trick is the weight and number of jumps, as they may have a moment to get out if they're floaty. But from my experience of using it, it usually works if they instantly dodge from the throw.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

So I've finally adjusted to Marth in smash wii u. I've accepted his feel as the new normal. More than anything, patience seems to be my best asset. This game really rewards smart decisions and I've come to pick out the right opportunities with marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Their distance is equal from my own testing.

Dude who posted the first vid was clearly tipsy.

 

[Locuan]

There must have been something off when he recorded that. First thing that I thought he might have done was dashed a bit too long. That or counted incorrectly for some reason. In the end , it seems that we can safely conclude, from the testing that others have done, that both characters have the same perfect pivot momentum carrying over as the character designs inherently suggest.

 

[KillLock]

http://www.twitch.tv/anjosmash

Stream should be up shortly

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Well, I decided I am just going to get Omega Ruby for Christmas this year and leave getting a Wii U and smash Wii U for next year.....Looks like I am going to be stuck with smash 3ds for what will most likely be another year.....

 

[EternalFlame]

Well, I decided I am just going to get Omega Ruby for Christmas this year and leave getting a Wii U and smash Wii U for next year.....Looks like I am going to be stuck with smash 3ds for what will most likely be another year.....

Though I wouldn't treat it like the end of the world though. There will still be people that play the 3DS version (like myself) even with the WiiU version around. Still lots of smashing to be had, and Nigel Thornberry will be quite happy with that I'm sure xD

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Eh, I shouldn't have made that post.....I need to get over my bad habit of whining whenever things don't go my way. I hope that changes when I get older, I still am only 15 years old (yeah I know I mention my age a lot).

 

[EternalFlame]

Eh, I shouldn't have made that post.....I need to get over my bad habit of whining whenever things don't go my way. I hope that changes when I get older, I still am only 15 years old (yeah I know I mention my age a lot).

Being 15 only means you've still got a lot of room to grow dude. Everyone actually has still much growing up to do, even as adults. This sort of thing is not restricted by age, gender, or whatever other factor people could place it in, so I wouldn't feel too bad about it. You recognized the problem in yourself, and you want to change for the better. We can only try our best to make that change during the time we have in this life - and no one could ask for more than that.

That Smash WiiU will be there dude, and you'll get it one day with enough determination and patience. But the small correction you have placed on yourself here will count for a whole lot more in your steps towards growing up. But that's just my opinion on it all xD

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I guess it just comes from us living in a world where people treat anybody who isn't an adult like they are idiots and can't do anything.

 

[Drizl]

M2K mentioned that while he believes Sheik is the best character in smash 4, he doesn't use her because he doesn't want to mess up his melee Sheik. I was curious about whether anyone thinks that this might also apply to Marth mains as well from melee/brawl with all of his weird nerfs. Since trying to juggle maining Marth in both melee and smash 4, my consistency with tippers has been a little more iffy, and I'm wondering whether I should try focusing on another character while using Marth as a secondary or if I should just condition myself to the range differences in each game.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Drizl Marth hasn't been really seen in the tournament scene because he hasn't been fully discovered and at the moment he just struggles vs the top tiers. I don't think much of it has to do with Melee, albeit that might be a part of it for some players.

Speaking of Marth, I just got the Wii-U version of Smash and while my Marth play is basically the same from 3ds to wii U (I use the classic pro controller because it has a very similar layout to the 3ds, which is what I am most comfortable with) and he really does well in For Glory. If you get good at spacing you can score the coolest ko's and at ridiculously early percentages. Easily my most successful character and it just gives me further motivation to become really good at Marth at a tournament level.

 

[EternalFlame]

I guess it just comes from us living in a world where people treat anybody who isn't an adult like they are idiots and can't do anything.

People need to learn to listen sometimes, whether kid or adult I find. Some are just too prideful to listen without much consideration for the point made, which is kind of sad really :/ But those who know better strive to do better, and that's all we really can do. Of course, the person's personality does come into play, since a kid as much as an adult can be quite stubborn and refuse to listen xD

M2K mentioned that while he believes Sheik is the best character in smash 4, he doesn't use her because he doesn't want to mess up his melee Sheik. I was curious about whether anyone thinks that this might also apply to Marth mains as well from melee/brawl with all of his weird nerfs. Since trying to juggle maining Marth in both melee and smash 4, my consistency with tippers has been a little more iffy, and I'm wondering whether I should try focusing on another character while using Marth as a secondary or if I should just condition myself to the range differences in each game.

I'd suggest the latter and try to adjust to both, but I can see where that mentality comes from. It could possibly throw you off, but if you take the thought that Melee Marth and 4 Marth are two different characters, its the same as if you practiced two different fighters and wanted to be consistent with both. Take Ryu and Ken from SF, which both of them essentially are the same, they have slight differences that people can explore and be profitient with both. They share a similar name and playstyle, but people who practice multiple characters (or are just good at placing skill of characters within their respectful games) should have little problem with keeping the skill between games.

 

[Shaya]

I play/adapt to Marth in most games reasonably well... but I haven't touched melee/brawl/pm since smash 4 pretty much... I don't know how going back to others will be, Marth is definitely the most different in smash 4 than the past iterations.

 

[KillLock]

Well I ended up winning doubles with my partner, who played C.Falcon. We played against a Diddy/Sheik & Ness team from Calgary, we tried Marth+Robin with not much luck(Robin kinda got messed up) and C.falcon+Robin with not much better results, in the end we found Marth+C.falcon to be the answer and took both WF's(Game 5) and Grand finals(3-1).

The tournament lasted a lot longer than we expected so we decided that it would be a better idea to postpone the pro bracket(We ran an amateur). So go here http://www.twitch.tv/anjosmash to catch some matches on stream at around 11am mountain time. I'll be trying my best to go all Marth, even though I have a pretty legit C.falcon, so wish me luck!

So far I've been seeing a ton of Sheiks and Diddy's so I'm expecting to get a lot of those Mu's today with Marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth and CF is a solid team. Both have good mobility and Marth can set-up for knees pretty well for CF.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Hmm, and here I was thinking that Marth was not the one for me in teams. I don't really play doubles,but when I play doubles I always team with my friend who main Falcon.

 

[Zano]

lucina seems to be much more of a doubles character than marth, mainly due to you not having to focus additional attention to spacing for tippers in addition to keeping track of 3 other characters. Here is the ultimate unbeatable strategy with her:

get your damage to 100%
start flicking the c stick for kills

 

[warionumbah2]

Not that big of an achievement, Bowser Jr who is complete butt cheeks in 1 v1 is amazing in doubles. Mr Game and Watch who is also bad can create amazing bucket tag teams with Pikachu.

Characters that suck in 1 v 1 tend to be better in teams which is why i'm hoping Doubles become more common.

 

[Zano]

I keep forgetting jokes are lost to 90% of this chat, eh.

 

[warionumbah2]

Hard to tell a joke through text(especially with no emotes), forgive me oh important stranger.

 

[kj22]

I keep forgetting jokes are lost to 90% of this chat, eh.

Zano why are you here? Don't the dark pit boards need you?(;

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I keep forgetting jokes are lost to 90% of this chat, eh.

Wait that thing about Lucina was a joke? That is pretty much what I always see her do, and it works.

 

[KillLock]

Well I ended up placing 2nd to Diddy, a mu I haven't had the most experience in. I tried playing passively in WFs and took things one hit at a time and zoned him out but it seems like Diddy's neutral and shield game are strong enough where he can react to what you're doing really well. So in GFs I decided to play all out aggressively to force him into bad situations and I won pretty solid in the first game(The only match recorded unfortunately, so I'll try and get that uploaded) kept all the other matches pretty close this way but no dice in the end.

Our streamer got really salty when he didn't make it out of pools for Melee and cut our stream short.

Anyway I feel like the mu is hella hard but definitely doable. I'll have to play more Diddy's to get a better understanding but I felt like I did pretty good for having minimal experience.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I think the best way to deal with diddy with any character is putting him at the disadvantage. Take his banana and use it against him by using your safest b-move. If he is off stage try to counter his side-b kick,but be careful, because they can catch on and use his grab side-b. It is a really difficult MU in my opinion,but i guess it is that way for most...

 

[Zano]

Hard to tell a joke through text(especially with no emotes), forgive me oh important stranger.

I guess ultimate unbeatable strategy is a serious term nowadays


EDIT: @ kj22 They are a lost cause, there is no guidance available to them.

 

[Emblem Lord]

@ KillLock please start posting result links to tournament threads you place well in. Unless they don't have a thread on smashboards of course.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I just played against a Japanese Lucina player. They were pretty good, they 2 stocked me in every match we had,but then they decided to be disrespectful and pick Marth. I know what you are thinking,but no, they clearly didn't know how to use Marth. They did the exact same things they did with Lucina,but it didn't work with Marth because his sourspot moves do a lot less. I ended up winning the Marth ditto thanks to tippers and the funniest part is that they left after I beat them one time. It is really funny when a player tries to disrespect you by beating you with your own main (who they don't even know how to use) and they fail miserably. The same thing happened the other day when some player kept beating me and would T-bag after every KO and they decided to switch to Falcon (who I was also using) to try to disrespect, but not only did they get 2-stocked, they also lost the match a Falcon Punch read. After that match they also left.

 

[Quickhero]

@ JingleJangleJamil I love it when anybody does that to me and pick Marth...only to realize that they miss most of their tippers and I end up dominating. It feels incredibly rewarding to demolish those kind of players.

On another note, are there any Marth related tips for B-reversing? I can perfect pivot (offline, sometimes For Glory lag makes it hard for me) just fine, but when it comes to B-reversing no matter how many times I try I either don't end up turning or I end up doing B-Side...seeing as how I want to get tournament level good with Marth and how useful Marth's shield breaker is, help would be greatly appreciated. In case the controller matters, I use both the 3DS XL and the Classic Pro controller.

 

[Locuan]

@ Quickhero the timing is a bit complicated to get right the first few times. You have to input neutral B and after that quickly push the analog stick in the direction contrary to the one you are facing. I had linked a video on the Lucina boards video thread that highlighted the action. I hope it can help you out.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Locuan Thank you so much! I can actually do it now! Albiet I still need quite a bit of practice for me to get it right at least 75% of the time, I can now actually do it. :D

I think I will probably do a lot better versus heavies like Dedede and a good Bowser or anybody with an extremely hard push on a smash attack when you shield since now I can easily punish them by perfect pivoting into a b reversal and stop shields since I can potentially shield break immediately.

 

[LoreLes]

Hey Shaya, just wanted to say good games again. I really didn't expect to run into you at my local tourney, more or less being my first match in a Marth mirror. This is Lore btw.

 

[Random4811]

So I got the Wii U version. Can I just say how much I hate the classic controller? The sticks are so flimsy and unresponsive. The buttons are okayish, but I hate the tiny Zr and ZL. I hope that I can get my hands on a pro controller, which seems to be everyone's awnser to not having gamecube adapters.

 

[Shaya]

200 man local