Scrub-Proof: The Competitive Ike Thread: Take Cover Here! -MOTD: Up Tilt!

[Arturito_Burrito]

Burrito, I'm not sure what your talking about with 3th hit etc.. but 3xswords is right. Powershielding is always a better option then using jab to cancel out moves. Jab to cancel moves will give both players the same position, powershielding leaves the opponent with post-move lag and you without lag, so you are at the advantage. However, it might be good to know which moves could be cancelled with a jab, so you can decide how "safe" it is to use (/spam) your jabs. If you, for example, know it even cancels out fsmashs of a certain character, spamming jabs is less likely to get punished.

As to 3xswords his question, I'm not quite sure to be honest, but my first guess would be yes.

As to Taylor his question, no, a move just striking air (say a whiffed move) does NOT count for stale move, it also doesn't help to decrease the "staleness" of other moves.

It works like this. The game remembers the last move you use. It only does so if the move connects. It does so when you hit a shield/powershield, so that's why I assume it also does so when you hit another move. The game stores up to 9 moves, so after that time the first move will return to normal.

Example: you fsmash your opponent. After this you jab him 8 times. If you jab him once more, the fsmash will be at full power again.
Example2: you fsmash your opponent. After this you jab him 4 times. You fsmash him again. Your fsmash will still be slightly weaker, equal as if you used fsmash twice. This also means your stack will not reset. So to say, you still need to jab 9 times before fsmash returns to normal.

Hope that makes something clear.

that was actually my question not taylors but thx for answering it. as for the part that you didnt unstead let me see if i can make it clearer im not very good at explaining things though.

the jab combo is AAA. if you over use the first A would the other 2 degrade as well? because rnt they different attacks?

has anyone incorporated the Will Combo into their gameplay yet?

its so useful!!

no i havent but you used it on me and i was like dang i need to learn that thing. i still need to work on my nair to jab and jab to grabs though

 

[3xSwords]

What's the will combo I forgot.

No I don't think the last two jabs will degrade if you only use the first one. I believe each jab is considered a separate move.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

What's the will combo I forgot.

No I don't think the last two jabs will degrade if you only use the first one. I believe each jab is considered a separate move.

the will combo is Nair > jab> grab> grab hit> ftrow and try and Nair again to maybe start it over. its on page 3 he probably explains it better.

and if the other 2 jab attacks dont degrade then it wouldnt matter if you spam it as a defensive move because only the 1st jab would become weaker and the knock back on it hardly matters. also using jab instead of Power shielding is better sometimes especially with IASA moves a power shield wont help you there and with alot of other combos while jab can stop them. if that happens they might try and continue the combo but since you put them out of range you can punish them with an Fsmash.

 

[Ussi]

Ike's jab cancels out wolf's fsmash...

 

[RPK]

/r/ list of what Ike's jab can cancel out...Besides the ones listed above, I know it can cancel out another Ike's jab.

 

[Empy]

that was actually my question not taylors but thx for answering it. as for the part that you didnt unstead let me see if i can make it clearer im not very good at explaining things though.

the jab combo is AAA. if you over use the first A would the other 2 degrade as well? because rnt they different attacks?

It counts as 3 different moves. Which makes it even more important to not use your 3th hit too much. It does degrade when it hits a shield, making it even more important to stop if the first or second hit of your jab combo is shielded.

Also, just some random info, but all 4 throw directions count as different attacks. This also means that when you grab someone at 0%, an uthrow might be the best option. At that point you can still follow up on it and it keeps your dthrow fresh and ready if you want to regrab straight away.

As to the Will combo, I haven't really used it in actual matches, right now I'm working on doing the 3 different n-airs at the right time. Also, I did think I could landcancel the uair but I haven't been able to do so after and I haven't heard anyone else about it so I'm assuming I was wrong?

O and guys, I think the Ike guide is outdated, I don't like the fonts and the spelling mistakes and some of the info is just false. So I've been thinking about making an Ike guide myself, but any help from you guys would be appreciated. I'll mostly need help on the matchup chart and stage selection, these are the things easiest influenced by personal opinion, so the most sensitive for mistakes.

If anyone is up for making a joint Ike guide, please let me know, I think it would hugely help these forums, Ike's metagame and even help the greatest of Ike players, as there is always stuff you tend to forget or simply ignore.

 

[3xSwords]

Really Empy? I believe moves do not degrade if they hit shield. They only degrade if they damage the enemy don't they? U-air can not be landcanceled via SH but you can if you do a full hop and don't FF. Good luck w/ the guide.

 

[XACE-K]

the will combo is Nair > jab> grab> grab hit> ftrow and try and Nair again to maybe start it over. its on page 3 he probably explains it better.

I tired it before and its pretty good to use.

 

[Empy]

Really Empy? I believe moves do not degrade if they hit shield. They only degrade if they damage the enemy don't they? U-air can not be landcanceled via SH but you can if you do a full hop and don't FF. Good luck w/ the guide.

Hmm.. I really thought they did, but I'll test it later on then. I do know that missed moves and moves evaded with sidestep/roll don't count, but I thought hitting a shield did.

With U-air I think you mean autocancelled? That's not what I'm talking about. Autocancelled attacks, like the "comprehensive guide to AT" topic. That says;

- "Auto-Canceling" aerials
L-Canceling is gone, but there exists a common-sense trick for eliminating lag after your aerials. Simply perform an aerial such that the majority of the attack's animation is over when you touch the ground. Each move has different timing (there's probably a relationship between this and IASA frames), but with practice, "Auto-Canceling" should become second nature. (Note: Some aerials may also be canceled if you land before a certain point in the animation, but not all.)

Now this is not what I'm talking about. I find it completely ridiculous that people try to find names like this all the time. This is simply doing an aerial, then landing. And the person goes "omg, if you do it higher the lag is shorter". With this "technique" you don't actually cancel anything.

Now what I'm talking about, is that there are certain moves that completely stop when you hit the ground. In Ike his case, the Nair. This means you get just the 4 frames lag you get after every attack, like you haven't preformed any attack at all. This works both with or without fastfalling. This can be done with Nair, although just the first hitbox comes out and you don't hit under you anymore.

So it works, shorthop, and just before you hit the ground, do a nair. However, if you do it too closely the hitbox doesn't come out at all and you won't do damage.

This is also what I meant with the "3 types" of nair. You can shorthop, nair when at the top of your jump, fastfall. This gives probably the most lag, but also hits underneath you, which is great against rolls etc.. You can also direct this nair the most, so you can actually hit someone behind you by holding back.

The second way is to shorthop, then use your nair right away and don't fastfall. This gives you less lag, but takes a bit longer overall. The funny thing is, the lag after fastfalling is bigger then without, if you did an aerial or not. This method is useful mostly for following up with QD, but I wouldn't really recommend it for nairs.

The third way is the one I discribed above, you could best test it, by standing in front of bowser in training mode. A normal nair would hit far enough behind you to hit him. A nair which you cancel using the ground shouldn't. You should still be able to see the sword swing, it won't do damage otherwise.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

go ahead and try to make an ike guide that things last update was before smash came out in the states. and im also working on my nairs need to get used to them before i starting using the will combo

edit: i wanted to add that jab can cancel metakinghts side b attack although that one is probably better to counter i still think we should find out what jab cancels especially with moves that powershielding doesnt do anything to like metaknights side b so when ever i find out something like that im just going to go ahead and post it.

 

[3xSwords]

So that's what you meant by land canceling? Well either way it doesn't work for u-air. lol a bit of topic but now does anybody want to test the jab thing? I would but I don't have a wii with me right now.

 

[Empy]

True, it doesn't, however, I really thought I did use it for uair sometime on Orpheon, might be some strange glitch as I've never been able to do it again.

Edit; I've made a guide about Aerials first, as I was working on this already, you can find it here. It's really useful for Ike his nair. If you only use your nair with shorthop + fastfall atm, I'd advice reading it.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Eh, I've never really understood the move degrading system. M2K might know something. >.<

(Oh hey look Falcon's back.)

 

[Empy]

Really Empy? I believe moves do not degrade if they hit shield. They only degrade if they damage the enemy don't they?

Yeah, you are right, I am wrong, You rule, I suck, you ****, I cry, etc..

Also, I'm trying to figure out how far moves degrade for my Ike guide.

Edit; o hey, Falcon his back.

 

[comboking]

I tired it before and its pretty good to use.

or you can DThrow to Aether

 

[3xSwords]

Nah comboking dthrow to aether never works now. It makes me sad now that ppl realize they can DI .

 

[Falconv1.0]

I always see things like "this to aether", but none of them work. people know how to DI and dodge. Forward B to jab or something like that is more viable than any of his throws, lol.

Also, I'm finding d-smash good to use on people who have a dumb habit of rolling into you.

Hai Empy.

 

[Empy]

Hehe, funny you mention that, my description for dsmash in my guide is:

Dsmash (down smash)

Uncharged, first hit 13% second hit, 16%, degrade to first hit 6%, second hit 7%.
Fully charged, first hit 18% second hit 22%, degrade to first hit 8% second hit 9%.

6/10 not very useful, except for punishing opponents that roll too much. Won't kill that easily compared to Ike his other moves.

Also I've been working on it for a while this evening, hoping to get it up as soon as tomorrow.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I dun use D smash to kill. i use it to get people the hell off me. XP

I find F Tilt, F Smash, and U smash to be his best bet. Well, cept for on the edge, then it's spiking time.

 

[3xSwords]

D-smash is great after spot dodge I mean in this game spot dodge -> d-smash is the best for all characters which is so nooby b/c everybody spams it esp. all ROB players XP lol.

And wow lol are we even going to discuss moves now? or is this thread a free-style-whatever-you-want-to -talk-about thread?

 

[Empy]

Even though your right, the move of the day hasn't changed for about a week.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Here are my 2 cents on AAA

Great for punishing after shielding and attack, and the ability to cancel it in case the enemy dodged and is in position to **** helps a lot. It's a pretty easy straight forward move that any Ike user must make full use of, unless you like getting pwnt after missing the rest of Ike's slow *** ground game. I give it a 9/10.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

well a while ago like in page 10 versatile started changing the move of the day after we actually moved on so how about we discuss Dair cause i dont think im using that one right.

o yah this is a vid of me and a friend fighting he doesnt rly use snake to well and the audio is crap so prepare your self anyways tell me what you think its pretty much the only video i have till i buy an external CD rom and instal dazzle on my computer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuPFqXMMsno

 

[Empy]

It's pretty obvious your friend doesn't play Snake that much, or he'd have used his Down B a lot more, certainly from his UpB. Also, you seem to have some problems with your DI on his dash attack, you should keep holding towards the edge of the stage once he hits you with it. QD could be an emergency escape when he goes for the dash attack> usmash. Besides that, good job on beating Snake. It always feels better to beat a Snake or a Metaknight doesn't it?

 

[CorruptFate]

So this is a clan right, and would want to enter some clan wars? If so have your leader PM me and ill send him a messages about a new exciting clan wars so you can decide if you wanta join the brawl. Only one clan per character though. (might be letting more clans of the same guy in depending on the turnout)

 

[Empy]

No no no. Don't post any copypasta here. You've already posted at both Ike clans.

Holding back also works so well because of Brawl's jabbing engine in general. If a character is floating slightly off the ground, Jab will continue to reset to the first hit until the engine believes the 3rd hit can connect. Because of this you can have a lot of 1,2 1,2 1,2 1,2,3 series with Jab.

I've been working on doing this with Jab-canceling. It works pretty well. On a slate it seems easier. I've gotten 40% on a Bowser at Yoshi's Melee while we started on the ground.

Also people, you can't cancel a jab with shield, you have to crouch.

 

[CorruptFate]

Were trying to get a real clan vs clan thing going on instead of a clan being more of a buddy list people can play in a type of turny its cool if you guys don't wanta get in im just sending invites out if people wanta get in on it

 

[Falconv1.0]

**** you Corrupt fate.

And **** clans.


Also, I've been screwing around with the Jab cancel. It seems to work pretty well.

I'm gonna enter one more tourney as Ike before switching over to Falco for a while, I'll notify you of my results.

If Ike wins in tourney's a lot, his tier placement will be much better.

EDIT:WTF, this isn't WoW or Guild Wars, this is a freaking Ike forum.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

dang no need to treat him like that hes just looking for another way to have fun with his clan to each his own no? anyways what jab cancel are you guys talking about cause ive tried canceling by crouching and if i try and grab after that it finshes the AAA combo. also that thing you quoted empy wasnt talking about jab canceling it was talking about holding A instead of pressing it 3 times and the combo sometimes cancels it selfs and resets giving you some AA AA AAA.

as for my friend its not that he doesn't play snake its just he doesn't play smash all that much his bro is hogging there wii right now because he lost very badly to some guy and wants to get better to beat him. also with the DI it was actually because my controller was glitchy since it was running out of batteries i couldnt hold my shield either if you noticed nor QD.

 

[3xSwords]

Yo arturito your matches were good.

What I saw was that you seemed to "forget" that n-air was good and then you started to use it more in the middle of the match when you "remembered" to use it. I liked the jab->f-throw->f-air. That was good tech chasing and good use of counter. Use u-air if snake is going to descend by doing a d-air b/c u-air will outprioritize it. And btw are you purposely using b-air to hit the opponent the opposite way they would normally go? b/c I would tell you to stop since you're better off using the max range of the b-air. Overall great matches .

 

[senjiroth]

when i do the jab cancel i just dont do anything for a sec then grab or f-tilt or u-tilt and it works pretty well.. sometimes i hit down then do any grab i want.... the shield cancel is too slow for ike imo....

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

thanks i think im getting a cd rom drive soon so ill be able to film some more of my matches when he went in the oppisite direction it was actually an accident guess i have to work on spacing my bairs also i just found out that jab can cancel out pits fsmash.

so does any1 agree with me on making dair move of the day cause i dont rly know how to use it or atleast some1 else suggest another deep move

 

[Falconv1.0]

Can I request that we spell?

And wtf is a b air? Eruption, Quickdraw, aether?

I'll be up to discuss the usage d air if you can spell ONE.

The awesome part is that I typed this on Wiiternets.

 

[Empy]

dang no need to treat him like that hes just looking for another way to have fun with his clan to each his own no? anyways what jab cancel are you guys talking about cause ive tried canceling by crouching and if i try and grab after that it finshes the AAA combo. also that thing you quoted empy wasnt talking about jab canceling it was talking about holding A instead of pressing it 3 times and the combo sometimes cancels it selfs and resets giving you some AA AA AAA.

as for my friend its not that he doesn't play snake its just he doesn't play smash all that much his bro is hogging there wii right now because he lost very badly to some guy and wants to get better to beat him. also with the DI it was actually because my controller was glitchy since it was running out of batteries i couldnt hold my shield either if you noticed nor QD.

Well he posts in nearly every thread about this clan thing with the same copypasta instead of making a general thread about it. Also, clans in Brawl?

And I know the crouch thing works. I used it all the time in Melee and it hasn't changed much. I'll explain it in my guide soon. And I know he wasn't talking about jab canceling, like I said, I was trying to recreate it. I've done it with holding A before on Ganon but it's a bit too random for my taste.

when i do the jab cancel i just dont do anything for a sec then grab or f-tilt or u-tilt and it works pretty well.. sometimes i hit down then do any grab i want.... the shield cancel is too slow for ike imo....

There is no shield cancel or anything, it's just more obvious with slower characters. Crouching is the way to cancel a jab.

thanks i think im getting a cd rom drive soon so ill be able to film some more of my matches when he went in the oppisite direction it was actually an accident guess i have to work on spacing my bairs also i just found out that jab can cancel out pits fsmash.

so does any1 agree with me on making dair move of the day cause i dont rly know how to use it or atleast some1 else suggest another deep move

Dair is fine by me, what happened to Versatile anyway?

 

[3xSwords]

Can I request that we spell?

And wtf is a b air? Eruption, Quickdraw, aether?

I'll be up to discuss the usage d air if you can spell ONE.

The awesome part is that I typed this on Wiiternets.

b-air is an accepted shorthand term for back air. D-air is down air. Eruption is nuetral B, Quickdraw (QD) is side B, aether is up B. I lol'd the wiiternets part.

I'm up for discussing d-air. Does anybody use this out of shield? Common uses: for spiking (no duh), an approach to mix things up, out of shield, and to punish rolls. Really can't combo into anything, only u-tilt and aether if they don't DI @ mid-%'s. That's all I really use it for. How about you guys?

 

[Empy]

I use Dair the most on water stages really. Mainly on Pirate ship. It's also cool to just drop in the water and hope your opponent will come after you. Just jumping out and doing a dair right away can spike them right through the water. I don't like the fact that it doesn't have any real follow ups though. I'm thinking about rating it a 6/10 instead of 7/10. Maybe some of you have found some neat ways to use it?

 

[Falconv1.0]

b-air is an accepted shorthand term for back air.

ATTN Falcon:Stay away from Smashboards at late night.

Wow, I was so illiterate I couldn't understand the term b-air. I need more sleep.

BACK ON TOPIC-

Dair-If you can get right at the edge to spike a fool, or keep them in the water, great. But that's all it can really be used. Most of the time, moves like n-air or b-air should be used isntead.

And also, jumping off the edge to kill is way to risky for Ike, which really kills the usability for this. 6/10.

 

[senjiroth]

There is no shield cancel or anything, it's just more obvious with slower characters. Crouching is the way to cancel a jab.

oh.... xd is that the reason why its not on the AT thread?? thanks btw

back on topic
D-air: one of the moves that are just there (besides spiking) i use it regularly to hit the opponent when i got sent away or when im above my opponent (is there any other move that i can do besides this?? i think its risky but i cant find any other moves to use besides this and air dodge xd) out of shield?? meh.. i think its too slow but it might work against rollers or spotdodgers... i like to use this move during at high % coz it reminds me of ganon's stomp and to have an epic ending... lol

 

[VersatileBJN]

Good stuff guys! I will update page 1 with Jab info soon.

MOVE OF THE DAY IS BAIR!

IMO nobody uses bair better than Silven(from my expeirnece atleast), so looking forward to seeing what he has to say about it.

I'll post some shizzz later

 

[3xSwords]

B-air is best combo'd into with n-air around mid%'s. Particularly a backwards n-air (I think Silven mentioned this earlier). Out of shield it is amazing. I use it for killing and intimidation. Multiple b-airs in front of the opponent will scare the **** out of them. Its an ok edgeguard if they are not recovering from directly below the edge. I like this move the best b/c of the quickness and aiming isn't too hard, just have to get used to it.