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Scrub-Proof: The Competitive Ike Thread: Take Cover Here! -MOTD: Up Tilt!

Arturito_Burrito

Smash Master
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Mar 24, 2008
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el paso, New mexico
counter works well when you can see an attack coming from a distance like in recoveries. with ike and the spacies it works well id say if you can time it right im not good at timing those illusion attacks. if your fighting an ike ditto and he drops down to aether back you can counter it. this might only be with nubs that i fight though.

with a pit i was fighting today i noticed that he would spam arrows (ofcourse) and then when i approached him by rolling and dodging the arrows he would smash me and at the end i started to counter that which worked pretty well especially if i did it to the arrow and not the smash cause that way if i miss i didnt get blown off the stage. an even better thing, though which i found out to late, was spacing and charging my fsmash wish i had done that since the start.
 

Academic Sake

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
15
Location
New Britain, CT
I'm a fan of counter and I agree it must be used intelligently however I probably spam it more than I should.

Actually, I probably use it most when I'm in the air which is a bad choice given all my other options...

It does wonders against Wario's bike.
 

Taylor

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
30
I usually use counter as a C-C-COMBO BREAKER, edgeguarding, and, more rarely, mind games.

First and foremost, Counter should ALWAYS be used in the air. If you're on the ground, there are much better options - jab, shield, grab, roll, charge upsmash for lulmindgames, whatever.

Counter being a combo breaker isn't too great, but I sometimes find myself unable to airdodge or retaliate against characters like Marth or Fox simply because of speed. The startup time is pretty bad, but if you pull it off at the right time, Counter can be very rewarding. Being able to switch from being pummeled to a position where Ike can go on the offensive (which is frightening, by the way) is always great. One thing I find myself doing a lot is neglecting to DI properly and look for an airdodge. Airdodges are better. :) Mixing in a counter will throw your opponent off, though.

For edgeguarding, I have no handier tool than Counter. If your opponent is smart, then he/she will come back BELOW the edge line. Which is to be expected, as fairs, spikes, and aethers are pretty easy to avoid after a mistimed airdodge. Since Counter lasts so long, it can work against even characters with hard-to-predict upb executions, like Lucas.

Mindgames...you should all about this back from our days in Melee, spamming Roy's counter. :) It's pretty much been covered up above, though.
 

menofuntall

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
70
You really, really have to use Counter intelligently. Usually, that also means sparingly. This tends to work wonders against slower characters, but rarely against Metaknight. The only time I've successfully pulled this off on Metaknight was during his edgeguards. And yes, I've found that Counter is a very good way to discourage edgeguarding once you can see the enemy's pattern. They will adapt, but hey, it'll work for a little while.

Every so often, though, the sheer length of Counter throws off my opponents. Luck is with me, I guess. >_>
 

senjiroth

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
28
Location
Daly City, CA
counter shouldn't be thrown out at random... be sure u know that and 99.9% sure that ur opponent will attack u... while i was using counter i think the counter frame is after the sound (the "DING" sound) but im not sure... thats how i time and it works for me...

on a side note to roy's counter, his is faster than ike so never compare them... never spam ike's counter coz its so slow.... im not pro its just my humble opinion...
 

XSilvenX

Smash Lord
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
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Brooklyn, New York
Ike's Counter works in Ike dittos vs Aether ^_^ if you don't feel like precisely using Fair then just go all up in their business and time your counter hehe ^_~
 

3xSwords

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...I don't know. I guess counter has uses as you guys mentioned but I don't think it contributes to Ike's metagames to the extent some of you guys put it as, certainly not mine that is. I mean I use it when going against an obvious attack but besides that counter should be pulled 3 times a match max IMO? Unless its against something like a smash attacking spammer. I am personally not a fan of counter although I use it sometimes.
 

VersatileBJN

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 10, 2003
Messages
560
Location
New Jersey
Nah I rarely use counter most of the time. There's just certain situations where it's like duh.


and it helps a LOT vs Meta.

I played the best in NY a bunch and without it I was getting assaulted.
 

fire_wulf

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
335
Location
Sioux Falls, SD
I rarely use the counter... maybe once a game. But i only use it when i know it will hit... and even then i get the timing off sometimes from not being used to it.

Overall... it is a huge game changing allowing you to throw your opponent off their grove if they are on one and allowing you to retaliate. When i play marth.. i make sure to use it... i have to start with Ike because he needs the ability to quickly change the pace in his favor without using a laggy aerial. Counter out of the shield is really funny when your opponent just expects his attack to be shielded. They may have been thinking about recovering from a block hit and are instead flying away and have to worry about surviving.

Counter is longer startup.. and shorter duration than Marth's.. but also has a bigger kick to balance out. Fun to pull off when it works. Everyone should learn to incorporate it into their game. Including myself.
 

Wolt

Smash Journeyman
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Feb 24, 2008
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288
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Moxee, WA
I use Counter as a safe measure of recovering to get people away from me. Theres also the chance after throws where people follow it up with a combo. Funny how it does last a while after it activates, too bad it's not instant though, as it's a pretty awesome sound.
 

Arturito_Burrito

Smash Master
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el paso, New mexico
using counter out of a grab is good but you have to know which grabs you can use it out of id say the ones that trow you up the most are the best where they can follow up with another grab cause if your in one of those chain grabs and counter its a waste
 

justbanter

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
2
did you guys know that you can spike with down+A if you're on the edge? much like young links down+A edge spike in melee.
 

XSilvenX

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First and foremost, Counter should ALWAYS be used in the air. If you're on the ground, there are much better options - jab, shield, grab, roll, charge upsmash for lulmindgames, whatever. .
In my opinion there is no better..there is just different. You can say there are better options for something like ...KO'ing... because things like that are fact. For example if someone lands in front of you with an extremely laggy move and you sh nair them instead of F-smash you can say for sure..the better option was to forward smash. But since we play Ike and let's face it....nothing is GUARANTEED for us then you can't really say there is a better option in every situation. You saying "ALWAYS be used in the air" is kind of funny..

What I mean is...say someone is attacking you relentlessly...you can counter with ....well.."counter" or counter with something else like another move, or shieldgrab..in this case there is no BETTER option since each one has it's potential. You can't say...oh shieldgrab would be best here..because you honestly don't know if you will do much from it..on the contrary you can't say counter is best here because you can follow up with this and that...See where I'm going? It's very situational...so there are times when Counter can be GREATLY followed up even on ground. So I don't know why you say "it should always be used in the air" If you say that, it makes Ike even more of an easy opponent knowing that Ike will never counter on ground..what does that tell the opponent?? "OH I shouldn't worry about counter if he's on the ground...Ikes don't do that" So why would you limit your gamut of moves...it just makes you an easier opponent. As random as certain things are, sometimes they work..that is what we in the business call the "random mindgame" it works because your opponent simply would never expect you to do whatever the random move is.

Basically if your counter works...you did well..you have breathing room and you can continue to make use of the space between you and the opponent. I use counter on the ground AND in the air at times and they both work extremely well for me. In any case counter tells the opponent "stfu, stop being so aggressive" and for the most part...it gives them something to think about next time they think you're just a sitting duck because you won't be able to do anything about them being super aggressive.
 

Arturito_Burrito

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el paso, New mexico
if your master dodging rolling and counter you could be un beatable never take dmg and reverse all there attacks 0.0 im kind of kidding there just posting to bump this a bit but is what i said actually possible?

also counter in the air works pretty well if you see them jump at you and if they are waiting under to up tilt you or smash you it slows you down. maybe it shouldnt be used all the time but it works often
 

3xSwords

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Nah what you said is not possible although I lol'd at it. Counter I must say should not be spammed and really should not be used often IMO, if you don't have problems with it then ignore me but sooner or later your going to be punished badly if you start relying on it too much.

But its just like XSilvenX said. Where counter isn't better than other options and vice versa. Although personally counter is just bad to use w/ Ike, mainly b/c you can't counter on reaction like Lucario and Marth. Wish you could >.<

Btw is it just me or is this thread going even slower? Versatile are you slacking (jk we all know you arent :) )? But if you, Versatile, are just having some troubles and can't update the thread will it be ok if one person suggests a move and we discuss that. Sort of like what happened earlier? After nothing's worse than a dead thread.
 

FishkeeperTimmay!

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Pembroke, Ontario, Canada
Counter is a move that is just very hard to use effectively. It's too slow to use on reaction most of the time, but it can really hammer back hard on some people smashes (Ike Ditto's anyone?). I would love to have Marth's Counter, Ike's defensive game would be so much more viable.

I think the next move should be the unique and wonderful U-air. I don't see it often amongst many Ike's, which I think is rather atrocious. The move is excellent!
 

Academic Sake

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
15
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New Britain, CT
Counter is a move that is just very hard to use effectively. It's too slow to use on reaction most of the time, but it can really hammer back hard on some people smashes (Ike Ditto's anyone?). I would love to have Marth's Counter, Ike's defensive game would be so much more viable.

I think the next move should be the unique and wonderful U-air. I don't see it often amongst many Ike's, which I think is rather atrocious. The move is excellent!
I try to use uair if my opponent is on the platform above me and I can't touch him with an up tilt. The move has one heck of a punch to it. Unfortunately it's hard to use his uair since the range is much shorter than most of Ike's attacks. But as Gregory House once said "It's not about the length but the girth".
 

NoVaLombardia

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Dec 10, 2007
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It seems to me that on the vertical game, ike's u-air has possibly the most priority, if not, one of the top 3 vertical attacks.

It out prioritizes Link's D-air.... its pretty sha-weet

and to top it off, you have to time your air-dodge perfectly to go right through it.
 

3xSwords

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I love the u-air. Dude I don't use it often but I know the spacing for it and I have to say its untouchable pretty much. Its like a free hit against ppl w/ suicide d-airs aka straight down at fast speed, and usually time it so it hits after they air dodge.
 

Arturito_Burrito

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Mar 24, 2008
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el paso, New mexico
i dont use uair very much and if i do its usually at high percentages so they die what i like about it though is that you can hit them when your next to them so its not very hard to aim
 

fire_wulf

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
335
Location
Sioux Falls, SD
Favorite part about Uair... the fact that it last long. If you space it correctly... they will air dodge the first part and then get hit with the second swing. I try to get it in after a Utilt if they don't DI correctly cuz it is a huge punisher.

One neat thing i like to do is Uair when on the ledge. If you pull back and then jump and Uair... the blade will just get above the edge.. hitting anyone who is standing too close.. plus when it is done you can Aether and it is the perfect distance so you don't get hit by the opponent while recovering and you can still grab the edge. It helps to keep people back while you get back on the stage.
 

Arturito_Burrito

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Favorite part about Uair... the fact that it last long. If you space it correctly... they will air dodge the first part and then get hit with the second swing. I try to get it in after a Utilt if they don't DI correctly cuz it is a huge punisher.

One neat thing i like to do is Uair when on the ledge. If you pull back and then jump and Uair... the blade will just get above the edge.. hitting anyone who is standing too close.. plus when it is done you can Aether and it is the perfect distance so you don't get hit by the opponent while recovering and you can still grab the edge. It helps to keep people back while you get back on the stage.
i cant belive i 4got about that i used to use it so much but for some reason i stoped i think its because i let go and hop onto the stage now but i think i may start using that again when ppl try and spike with dtilts or something like that
 

3xSwords

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If you FF the u-air at the proper time than you will be able to hit enemies on the ground.
However the opponent must meet 2 requirements

1. Has to be tall/about the size of Ike maybe a little shorter
2. You have to FF so the back end of the u-air can hit the opponent.

This is not very effective as there is pre-lag, easy to block/counter, and easy to miss. However, this is just an example how some moves can be used in interesting ways. Who knows you can get a surprise kill at high %. This was aimed to answer Trebor-Nella's thread about lack of Ike metagame and different ways a move can be applied.
 

FishkeeperTimmay!

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If you FF the u-air at the proper time than you will be able to hit enemies on the ground.
However the opponent must meet 2 requirements

1. Has to be tall/about the size of Ike maybe a little shorter
2. You have to FF so the back end of the u-air can hit the opponent.

This is not very effective as there is pre-lag, easy to block/counter, and easy to miss. However, this is just an example how some moves can be used in interesting ways. Who knows you can get a surprise kill at high %. This was aimed to answer Trebor-Nella's thread about lack of Ike metagame and different ways a move can be applied.
I lol'ed, U-air is one of those moves I'm trying to increase its uses on. You're right about being able to hit people on the ground, but it's so **** hard/unreliable, its not even funny. I've tried god knows how many times.

This move is incredible in the air though. I use it more than Fair and Nair now when both my opponent and I are airborne. No one expects it , its priority beats practically ANYTHING and it kills off the top really early. Its better than using U-tilt on an opponent coming down on you from above because of its increase priority and range. I strongly recommend using this move MUCH more.
 

Arturito_Burrito

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Mar 24, 2008
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el paso, New mexico
this thread is slowing down you need to save it with the ftilt or jab! cause are those rly all the uses for uair because i kind of already knew them just dont work them into my game much ill start using the hop of ledge uair one though
 

3xSwords

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GAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH
so boring!!! where is everyone? Should we move on b/c there are almost no uses for u-air except for what was already mentioned. U-air is like one of those "it is what it is" moves like d-tilt. You can't really set this move up (discounting bad DI), and you really can't combo from it, due to its power. U-air in summary is a strong one-hitter you use for a vertical kill.

Well since nobody else is talking, why don't we move onto jabs then? This is Ike's deepest move in terms of uses and applications as it is probably the only move in Ike's arsenal which sets up other moves and can be set up. Everybody knows the standard, n-air->3 hit jab which is a great 4-hit combo. Then, there's QD->jab, etc, however the most important skill by far has to be the jab cancel AT.

This can be done either via L button or crouching. Personally I use L for the first jab->grab combo and crouch to cancel out the other combos, like jab->jab->d-smash.

Jab is your main damage builder. Everybody says not to spam it, because usually you start getting shield grabbed. However, you can avoid this problem via jab, jab cancel, grab. And if they spotdodge just go thru the whole combo b/c one of those hits will land.

There are a lot more uses for the jab, and many applications. So please start posting guys. This thread is getting too slow so hopeful this will bring more life. Discuss.

(Btw sorry Versatile if discussion of the jab was going to be your trump card for this discussion but this thread is getting way to slow for me. If you have a problem just PM me).
 

VersatileBJN

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 10, 2003
Messages
560
Location
New Jersey
Please guys don't feel that because I don't update that you guys can't continue to talk competitive Ike!

I'm back though.

I'm not going to do many move/question of the day on weekends, but because this thing as been dead for a little bit I'm going to spice it up.

Move of the day(from Saturday till like Tuesda) will be jab.
 

VersatileBJN

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 10, 2003
Messages
560
Location
New Jersey
Ok, I may have been overexaggerating earlier about Iike being unplayable without throws(though I still feel he'd be awful), but without Jab he truly would be a joke. Nobody who uses Ike has to be told this. Sadly, though, a lot of Ike's go about using Jab incorrectly.

Firstly, if the first 2 hits of jab are blocked PLEASE do not do the third. Why? Well, there's this little thing call sidestep, and it's extremely easy to step the last hit and leave Ike wide open. Doing the jab series again after it is blocked or sidestepped can trick people sometimes, but it's best not to depend on that.

HOLD Jab instead of tapping Jab. This makes the jab combo come out at maximum speed all the time without having to worry about tapping and make it slower in between each hit(making it easier to interrupt). Holding also makes letting go upon seeing it blocked or hit much more reliable.

Holding back also works so well because of Brawl's jabbing engine in general. If a character is floating slightly off the ground, Jab will continue to reset to the first hit until the engine believes the 3rd hit can connect. Because of this you can have a lot of 1,2 1,2 1,2 1,2,3 series with Jab. Hold...don't tap. Can't stress that enough.

Jab is your ultimate punisher. Block anything fast enough that none of Ike's slower attacks can hit? Jab. These include sword dance by parth, Snake's forward tilt, Snake's jab combo, missed throw attempts, Samus' dair, whatever.

Jab has great priority and interrupts a lot of things. Upon fairing, nairiing, etc and having it blocked, sometimes jabbing is a good option against overall aggressive opponents. I can't even count the amount of times opponents have just ran into it.

Jabbing right outside of hitting range keeps defenses honest. From this you have many options? They keep blocking? Dash in and throw, dash in short hop back nair, etc. If you feel they are going to go in for an attack, short hop back fair. Use your head pretty much.

As everyone knows, after a whiffed quick draw, Jab is a great follow up. Be wise about this and try to read the opponent and their spacing well to maximize this use. QDing into Jab can allow you to mix up QD into throw if the opponent tries to just block.

Jabbing is anti sidestep for the most part. Someone is going to sidestep you? Holding jab in their face. More times tha not Jab is going to eat them up if they try to do anything. I like to keep jabbing even if they continue to spam side step. Short hop nair out of jab spam to beat sidestep is helpful too. It is semi flow, and can catch sidestep.

Jab on block is tricky. Like I said, if Jab is blocked it's best to stop after the 2nd hit(first hit if you ANTICIPATE jab being blocked). Single jab being blocked gives you some good options. Short hop nair BEHIND the opponent or away. Short hop away fair, grab, etc.

Jab is excellent for beating air dodge from right above the ground(like right before it can be cancelled into a shield). When ground stalking, look at when the opponent air dodges. Sometimes walking near them and holding jab so they fall into your jab combo right out of the air dodge is effective. They will be floating, too, so if you hold jab there's a high chance you wil lget the extended series. Doing this can cause the opponent to try to attack on the way down instead or air dodge. If you anticipate this, block, and punish with Jab anyway ^_^.

Jab on ground hit really opens up Ike's meta game. Single, or double Jab gives you lots of sexy options. Jab(or jab,jab) into throw is a staple. If opponent try to sidestep after eating too many of those, instead of grabbing after the jabs, walk up after them and hold it so that you can beat their sidestep. If they try to jump away or towards you with an attack to avoid it, short hop fair towards or away from them. It's all a matter of anticipation and reading the opponent.

Jab into nair is really sexy especially for the sidestep happy. Jab,jab, they go for sidestep? You're already in the air nairing(away from them preferably to increase the chance of being unpunished if blocked).

Jab jab on hit can give you some other sexy set ups that can really mess someone up who is too anxious. Jab,jab, forward tilt and Jab,jab,forward smash both can annihilate a mistimed sidestep or air dodge, or simply someone who's mentalitiy is, foolishly, that "I've been hit by the first 2 so I'm going to eat the third. I'm not even going to try to avoid the 3rd"...fail.

Jab canceling can be effective for those who don't go out of their away to avoid Jab once caught in it as well. Do this by jabbing once, then tapping down to cancel the animation, and jabbing again. If they don't attempt to intterupt the jab combo, you can extend your combo fairly long. Jab cancel, jab cancel,jab cancel, hold jab. Stuff like that.

Holding jab when edge guarding can be effective depending on who you're facing and what character they are using. Hopping back onto the ledge with an aerial can be ugly, but jab will beat many moves used for this. Holding jab to provoke a ledge hop, rising attack, etc can be effective. As SOON as you SEE or ANTICIPATE the opponent doing anything, let go of Jab and quickly short hop fair, forward smash, up tilt, up smash, or forward tilt. Whatever you use is dependent on what the opponent is going to do, so just be wise. Implementing fake/intentional jab attempts can cause Ike's already formidable edge guard game to become scary.

Jab, jab jab baby!
 

3xSwords

Smash Lord
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Woah wall of text lol.

Dam that was a lot Versatile. You know I didn't make a wall of text just so there would be stuff to discuss, but dang I think you just killed the jab discussion lol ;). jk anyway that was nice. Although if they shield your jab usually you want to jab cancel the first jab into grab and not even do the second jab.

And lol Jab edgeguarding mindgames. Gotta love it :)
 

Delta Z

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
345
...after a whiffed quick draw, Jab is a great follow up.
Or a Grand Viper'd Quick Draw...

If a character is floating slightly off the ground, Jab will continue to reset to the first hit until the engine believes the 3rd hit can connect. Because of this you can have a lot of 1,2 1,2 1,2 1,2,3 series with Jab. Hold...don't tap. Can't stress that enough.
I did this before a few times without trying. I can never time it right. But land it and it could mean 40+% if the edge is far away. It's like Ike's Reaper Combo (any other Kirby players here?). Size doesn't matter much with it; pulled it off on a Toon Link before.
 

VersatileBJN

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 10, 2003
Messages
560
Location
New Jersey
Word up Delta.

Lmao sorry 3x. I wasn't trying to kill discussion. Just really wanted to go in depth with arguably his most important move.

Jab cancelling into throw would be good, but reacting fast enough is crazy.
 

menofuntall

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
70
Ugh, I missed Uair. >_> I really liked that move, too. Lasts longer than an air dodge, one of the strongest vertical killers in the game, ridiculous priority, can actually hit people on the ground if low enough, comes out pretty fast, I wonder what's not to love about it? Well, other than the fact that it's only use is to continue a juggle to a kill, but eh. It's **** good at what it does.

Jabs are like Ike's best punishing move, as well as offensive move. The speed is great for such a strong move. Quick Draw helps this move a lot. And I'm sure you can actually deal more damage on the last move by canceling it into a Up Tilt or a throw, which generally means at best, you should not use the last hit of the AAA combo. If your opponent has no clue what DI is, I guess you could pull off a Nair -> Jab -> Jab -> Grab -> Pummel as much as you can -> Down Throw -> Aether. That'll teach them.
 

3xSwords

Smash Lord
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Mar 14, 2008
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Bergen County
Hey does anybody know if Ike's jab can cancel out projectiles? I read somewhere on the c. falcon forums that when you do an empty jab, aka holding A and doing the first jab over and over again, you would be able to cancel out some projectiles. Would anybody know if that's possible w/ Ike?
 
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