SCOTU's Frame Data Q&A + Request Thread

[GamerGuitarist7]

Sorry, appparently you misunderstood me... I meant to ask whether you can grab them out of the shine if the shine hits....:embarrass

i think he answered you the way you were answering the questoin. yes, you can grab them after the shine hits. no, they cannot grab you between the shine and grab. yes, they can escape the grab if they roll or spotdodge.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

i think he answered you the way you were answering the questoin. yes, you can grab them after the shine hits. no, they cannot grab you between the shine and grab. yes, they can escape the grab if they roll or spotdodge.

Well no. What scotu posted was frame data when the shine hits the shield. So not what I asked for.

 

[HiddenBowser]

If you hit them with the shine you cannot grab them without a wavedash first.

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

lol wtf yeah you can. JC grab out of the shine it's easy

 

[HiddenBowser]

If you hit them (not their shield) you can't.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

If you hit them (not their shield) you can't.

Yes, that's what I meant. Thank you.

 

[SCOTU]

you can catch them only if you dash into a jc/ dash canceled shinegrab.

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

If you hit them (not their shield) you can't.

oh i'm sorry lol, i tuohght we were still talking about hitting their shield.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

you can catch them only if you dash into a jc/ dash canceled shinegrab.

I'm confused. So what is this?

Dash->shine->jc grab? And this would work because you still have momentum from the shine, or what. Please help a poor n00b.

 

[SCOTU]

you can dash cancel a shine (dash>crouch>shine -- Slower), or you can jump cancel a shine (dash>jump>shine -- Harder). From those shines, because of the momentum, you can combo into a jc grab, or jc usmash on every character.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

you can dash cancel a shine (dash>crouch>shine -- Slower), or you can jump cancel a shine (dash>jump>shine -- Harder). From those shines, because of the momentum, you can combo into a jc grab, or jc usmash on every character.

I know about dash cancelling and jcing shines, I just wasn't sure that's what you meant. Apparently I had everything right then. Couldn't this be useful in comboing Luigi (if, as you say, it works on every chara.) because you can grab him after a shine then, and don't have to resort to shine->illusion?

Thank you, Scotu 4 prez.

 

[brawlpro]

scotu i dunno if this is a place to ask but how do you jc smash?

all i know is how to jc grab and jc shine.

 

[HiddenBowser]

Its the same thing except with c-stick up.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Its the same thing except with c-stick up.

Well, you could also just smash the stick up and press a while running. Works fine for me. I'm not sure whether it works out of shield that way, bbut I don't know why it shouldn't.

 

[brawlpro]

man c'mon, that sig bowyer, i never really watched you play! i'm sorry for that remark

 

[SCOTU]

you have to jump, then after 1 frame minimum, and at max the number of frames of your jump timing - 1.
for instance, for fox, it's
1 jump
2 earliest smash
3 latest smash

 

[Rat]

Ok sco2 i have a question.
If you press L/R when your jamming buttons to get out of a grab, does that count against your 1 chance to tech every second?

 

[SCOTU]

to put it short: Yes.
To put more length to it: it'll only **** you up for the next 40 frames.

 

[SCOTU]

Quick Public Service Announcement

The following characters have dash grabs that come out faster than their JC'd grabs:
(character - minimum # of frames faster: assumes perfect JC)
Peach - 1
ICs - 1
Yoshi - 8
Zelda - 1
Samus - 1

The following characters have dash grabs that get put away faster than their JC'd grabs:
(character - # of frames faster: assumes perfect JC)
Yoshi - 10
Link - 11
Y. Link - 11
Samus - 21

The following characters have dash grabs that come out at the same time as their JC'd grabs:
(assuming perfect JC)
Sheik
Bowser
Link

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

The following characters have dash grabs that come out faster than their JC'd grabs:
(character - minimum # of frames faster: assumes perfect JC)
Peach - 1
ICs - 1
Yoshi - 8
Zelda - 1
Samus - 1

The following characters have dash grabs that get put away faster than their JC'd grabs:
(character - # of frames faster: assumes perfect JC)
Yoshi - 10
Link - 11
Y. Link - 11
Samus - 21

The following characters have dash grabs that come out at the same time as their JC'd grabs:
(assuming perfect JC)
Sheik
Bowser
Link

This is interesting. Everyone that is in both of the first groups should never JC grab, and anyone in one of these or in the last group should probably do it differéntly depending on the situation. I always wondered why Bowsers don't jc their dash grabs, especially since Bowser lags a ton after it.

 

[Rat]

quick question, as I can't find the answer anywhere.
What Frame does the shield come out? 1? 2? 3? -5 (it comes out before you even think about pressing it?)

 

[SCOTU]

If you press L/R 4-0 frames before the attack would hit you, you get a powershield, starting w/ the frame you pressed L/R. After that, the normal shield is out, so it essentially comes out the moment you press L/R.

 

[craiigg]

Sorry if this has been asked already X__X

in terms of frames how quick/slow can you phantasm ledge-stall with both fox and falco
I.e.
Total number of frames it takes from tapping back til the illusion
Minimum & maximum number of frames to illusion stall ( "from tapping back you have a margin of __ frames to press side b and perform the phantasm, which is then canceled by the ledge" )
These results calculated into fractions of seconds (I could do this part myself if you want ^__^)

<33

 

[SCOTU]

That's kinda a hard question to figure out the margin of error for starting the phantasm/ illusion, but if i have time in the comming week, i'll bust out my AR and do a few tests.

 

[craiigg]

cool ^__^

10 chars

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

That's kinda a hard question to figure out the margin of error for starting the phantasm/ illusion, but if i have time in the comming week, i'll bust out my AR and do a few tests.

Looks like Scotu hasn't had time. Bump, and I have a minor question: if I am not mistaken, on your shield pressure guide you say that Fox dair pillaring has a 3 frame disadvantage when you jump and a 5 frame disadvantage when you land. Does this mean that:

1) It is not shieldgrabbable? (o_O)
2) It is better than Falco's pillaring (o_O)

If 2 is true, why don't more people do it? I've seen PC Chris do it in some friendlies vs. Cort, but tehy were only friendlies, I've never seen it done in a real battle.

 

[CanISmash]

any info on attacking a shield with falcon's b-air? does this move create the greatest shield stun from his arsenal?

edit n/m old topic. mindgamed..

 

[Ixninjax]

check out falco's shdl, lol.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zCmQI_E9JWs

 

[Rusty Shacklefurd]

check out falco's shdl, lol.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zCmQI_E9JWs

There's lot's of cheats that can effect your jump. If I had to pick one, I'd say it's some sort of bunny hood effect, that's probably one of the reasons he slowed it down, to make it less obvious how fast he's jumping. Considering how fast he's jumping and falling at half speed I'm thinking I'm probably right.

 

[Ixninjax]

lol, he's actually using a screw attack. Hold one, then short-hop. And immediately laser twice, and u shdl!

 

[Rusty Shacklefurd]

lol, he's actually using a screw attack. Hold one, then short-hop. And immediately laser twice, and u shdl!

Yah, just tested it, both methods work, but the screw attack one doesn't require AR. Incase anybody's wondering, you never see him holding the screw attack in the video because when both lasering and landing the screw attack disapears like when objects are invisible while taunting. So when timed properly, you never see the screw attack.

 

[SCOTU]

about fair pillar w/ 2 hits:
if you fair the frame you leave the ground, you can FF asap, and hit w/ the second hit the frame before you land. This yields a 6 frame disadvantage, allowing exactly enough time to shield grab between fair and shine.
once you shine, however, there's a 7 frame window before a fair can come out again, allowing a 2 frame window to shield grab, and even allowing some usamshes to hit. Between hits of the fair, there's only 2 frames of opening, so nothing but a spot dodge could be used. While this technique is overall safer than a normal pillar, it still has the same weakness: it can be rolled out of.

Random tidbit. sorry about the lack of answers as of late, schools taking up a lot of time.

 

[SCOTU]

More random stuff on jabs out of shield using a waveshield vs unshielding.

Faster to WD:
Fox, Pichu, Pikachu, Sheik, Young Link, Falcon, Marth, G&W, Samus
(1 frame difference, except samus - 2 frames).

Everyone else: it's tied/ faster to release shield.

Note, it's also significantly easier to just let go of L/R while being hit than try to do a perfect wavedash w/ a 1 frame margin of being out of shield stun.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

But when wavedashing out of shield, like when you're trying to punish a marth fsmash into shield, it is better to go for the WD out of shield, right? Since you would be sacrificing 15 frames if you let go and WD, and I think if you learn the shield stun, you can get it pretty close to frame perfect.

 

[Dark Sonic]

How fast can Marth attack after being hit by a laser? If he gets hit in the air, can he fair, uair, or up B before the falco can follow up with another attack? If he's on the ground, can he utilt? I think he can jab safely, but can he do anything else to the falco if the falco were to follow up with any attack besides the shine?

 

[SCOTU]

But when wavedashing out of shield, like when you're trying to punish a marth fsmash into shield, it is better to go for the WD out of shield, right? Since you would be sacrificing 15 frames if you let go and WD, and I think if you learn the shield stun, you can get it pretty close to frame perfect.

if you're crossing a distance, a waveshield is probably better, but for a marth fsmash, a shield release will often be sufficient.

 

[knightpraetor]

heh, that's my question from before..and i only asked cause i saw it in a video, falco player pillared past the opponent from behind to land in front but too far to grab and the opponent dropped shield and jabbed...but it made me curious whether waveshielding or letting go is faster because in that case he could have waveshielded out and grabbed i think more effectively..but the jab came out really fast as well so he got the grab anywayas i think

 

[Junpappy]

If anyone still checks this thread, I'd like to find out some info about invincibility frames regarding resets from missed techs(I guess I don't know of a name for this). I'm referring to what happens when characters are forced to stand up after they've missed a tech and get hit, like a waveshine>jab in a Fox ditto. Basically I just want to know how many frames of invincibility a character will experience when they are reset to standing position and how many frames of lag they will have before they can perform a move.

 

[Eggm]

I'd like to know if this is possible and if it is if you could make a vid of it. cause it'd be pretty freaking awesome. Falco does a forward b, Tech's say like a marth f smash tipper, immediatley after the tech does another forward b gets hit again and techs and keeps forward bing instantly after the tech over and over. I wonder if theres enough frames that you will be able to tech inbetween each hit and not have that thing where you can't hit L to tech after x amount of frames. That'd be cool to see. Also, how many frames does it take to grab the edge if your right next to it from a shortended forward b and a full forward b. Maybe you can use one or the other to make it take longer while doing this vid. Or maybe the marth who's hitting falco can wait just enough time that he can tech again on purpose just so we can see the vid that'd be hot. xD If he waits long enough and you do enough Smash DI up / towards the stage you should be able to do it I think, anyways I can't wait for this.

Either way, I want to know this. If I do tech and want to forward b directly after, which is faster to grab the ledge frame wise teching and doing an immediate forward b or an immediate forward b shortened?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

The fsmash doesn't come out fast enough for that, and there's not enough time between techs to retech, I think. There's a forty frame window where you can't tech again, after all.

I think the ledgegrab is the same no matter which length of Phantasm you use. First grab frame is twenty-five, by the way, eight frames after Falco starts moving forward.