SCOTU's Frame Data Q&A + Request Thread

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

If I as fox perfectly shffl a strong nair into a shine on someone's shield, can I get shieldgrabbed?
sorry of this has been answered

And another question: If I for example stand facing to the left and smash the control stick to the right to dash in that direction, do I turn around faster the harder/faster I smash the control stick?
It seems so to me, but I can't fully tell.

And another one: Sometimes when I try to shinespike a fox or falco through their illusion/phantasm they get hit by the shine but go flying behind me rather then back out. This doenst make sense at all, why does this happen?

 

[okiyama]

Simple question.
Does this % of damage effect the lag frames on power shield EX:
Attack does 5 % and then it gets powershielded, it has X ammount of stun on the guy who power shielded before they can react.
If it does 10% instead would it be X+Y(or maybe ever 2X) ammount of stun before they can react?

 

[SCOTU]

If anyone still checks this thread, I'd like to find out some info about invincibility frames regarding resets from missed techs(I guess I don't know of a name for this). I'm referring to what happens when characters are forced to stand up after they've missed a tech and get hit, like a waveshine>jab in a Fox ditto. Basically I just want to know how many frames of invincibility a character will experience when they are reset to standing position and how many frames of lag they will have before they can perform a move.

Since i no longer have a gamecube (and have to run melee off my wii, my AR doesn't work anymore, so i can't check this.

I'd like to know if this is possible and if it is if you could make a vid of it. cause it'd be pretty freaking awesome. Falco does a forward b, Tech's say like a marth f smash tipper, immediatley after the tech does another forward b gets hit again and techs and keeps forward bing instantly after the tech over and over. I wonder if theres enough frames that you will be able to tech inbetween each hit and not have that thing where you can't hit L to tech after x amount of frames. That'd be cool to see. Also, how many frames does it take to grab the edge if your right next to it from a shortended forward b and a full forward b. Maybe you can use one or the other to make it take longer while doing this vid. Or maybe the marth who's hitting falco can wait just enough time that he can tech again on purpose just so we can see the vid that'd be hot. xD If he waits long enough and you do enough Smash DI up / towards the stage you should be able to do it I think, anyways I can't wait for this.

Either way, I want to know this. If I do tech and want to forward b directly after, which is faster to grab the ledge frame wise teching and doing an immediate forward b or an immediate forward b shortened?

1) almsot every move is to slow to do that. I've seen someone do that for 2 hits of a peach dsmash though.

2) same # of frames.

The fsmash doesn't come out fast enough for that, and there's not enough time between techs to retech, I think. There's a forty frame window where you can't tech again, after all.

I think the ledgegrab is the same no matter which length of Phantasm you use. First grab frame is twenty-five, by the way, eight frames after Falco starts moving forward.

unless you tech twice during the same window; with one button press.

If I as fox perfectly shffl a strong nair into a shine on someone's shield, can I get shieldgrabbed?
sorry of this has been answered

And another question: If I for example stand facing to the left and smash the control stick to the right to dash in that direction, do I turn around faster the harder/faster I smash the control stick?
It seems so to me, but I can't fully tell.

And another one: Sometimes when I try to shinespike a fox or falco through their illusion/phantasm they get hit by the shine but go flying behind me rather then back out. This doenst make sense at all, why does this happen?

1) not shield grabable.

2)it's just you.

3) they've gone through you already and are hit onto the stage most likely

Simple question.
Does this % of damage effect the lag frames on power shield EX:
Attack does 5 % and then it gets powershielded, it has X ammount of stun on the guy who power shielded before they can react.
If it does 10% instead would it be X+Y(or maybe ever 2X) ammount of stun before they can react?

well, since there's no blockstun on a powershield, there's only hitlag (completely damage dependant), so yes, a 5% move would cause less lag than a 10% attack. See the hitlag formula in the OP

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

3) they've gone through you already and are hit onto the stage most likely

How can they go through me if they're "inside" a hitbox during the over b? >.> (or is the hitbox maybe behind them?)

btw, another question about jab canceling jabs into grabs (by pressing down so you cancel the last part of the jab animation by crouching). Ive noticed that if you use L+A (or R+A) for the grab and press A on the last frame after the jab lag you will do a dtilt even if you where holding the L button down. But if you would instead press Z on this exact frame instead of L+A, would you do a grab or would you dtilt aswell? Sometimes when you press after a jab cancel it'll become a dtilt instead and im pretty sure it has to do with timing, but Im not sure wether or not it becomes a grab or dtilt when you press it on this very frame and I can't test since I don't have AR

 

[elvenarrow3000]

The hitbox is behind you in Fox and Falco's side B. That's why it has such low priority.

You can tech twice in the same window? Didn't know that.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Ok, so when I shine somebody out of their side b so they are hit behind me, I'm shining them in the area between the fox or falco and the hitbox. I see. Thanks

to put it short: Yes.
To put more length to it: it'll only **** you up for the next 40 frames.

****! I didn't know that, so that's why I keep missing techs out of grabs haha! Thanks ALOT for that info...

But can you still use L and R to mash out of grabs through not pushing the L/R button all the way down? Or do you have to push L/R all the way down for the game to register the input as a "reduce the time that you're in the grab" button press

BTW: Another more simple and straightforward question, if you're charging needles with sheik and press L, how many frames does it take for her to stop charging?
If you wonder why I want to know this it's because I sometimes accidently lightshield after l canceling, so I want a way to practice tapping the l button and releasing it as fast as possible

 

[Eggm]

Thanks for the info, but wouldn't marths canceled down tilts be fast enough?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I think the problem is more that you'll have twenty frames in which you can tech, but then there'll be forty frames where you can't tech, and since Falco's Phantasm grabs the ledge on frame twenty-five, then you need to somehow fill up those extra fifteen frames or so.

 

[SCOTU]

wow, i didn't understand a single one of your guy's questions.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I'll try to put it more clearly: Does pressing L or R down just a little bit (without touching the digital button, just the analog trigger part) help when mashing out of grabs?

 

[Magus420]

And another question: If I for example stand facing to the left and smash the control stick to the right to dash in that direction, do I turn around faster the harder/faster I smash the control stick?
It seems so to me, but I can't fully tell.

Basically yes, but it's not faster makes you turn faster, but rather if you don't press it fast enough you instead go through a full turning animation before starting to dash which is slower. I think it was somewhere in the 7 frames area, but I don't remember the exact number or if it's different for some characters.

If there is a frame read by the game where you are tilting the opposite direction but not far enough to trigger a dash you will go through the full turning animation before beginning to dash the other way. It's really important for things like following up throws/chaingrabs when they DI behind and it requires you to dash behind to catch them. If your controller is very sensitive on the x-axis you really need to make sure you press it as fast as you can when dashing behind while standing/walking so you don't input a turn before inputting a dash.


As for L/R to break out of grabs, did you try it yourself? I don't remember the analog part of L/R registering for it, and only the digital clicking of them does.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I see! Thanks again Magus.


And about the breaking out of grabs thing, I always just mash everything when I try to break out of grabs which has led me to nearly always missing techs after grabs. And I was thinking that I used to miss them because I timed it to late or something like that (I only thought that the game would register L/R presses as techs if you where in hitstun, but now I realize that's not the case)

But I actually tested it just now and it does seem to make a difference.The character in the grab moved around faster when I did (mashing L and R without pushing them all the way down) this and Im pretty sure he broke out faster.

 

[Magus420]

Must have remembered wrong then. I went and checked if the digital press counts as an extra input but it doesn't appear to be. Also, I think L/R are both counted as the same button or something since if you hold down one and tap the other repeatedly it does nothing, and so I guess it just reads that as it being held down the entire time and not actually being tapped. If you use both you may need to time them a certain way to make sure the game reads it as being released inbetween them each time.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Also, I think L/R are both counted as the same button or something since if you hold down one and tap the other repeatedly it does nothing, and so I guess it just reads that as it being held down the entire time and not actually being tapped. If you use both you may need to time them a certain way to make sure the game reads it as being released inbetween them each time.

Interesting.
So alternating between pressing L and R without pressing them all the way down (so you don't miss your tech if you get thrown into something) will allow for the fastest grab-breaking (Along with mashing everything else off course)
Knowing this stuff is actually real good . Being able mash out of grabs as fast possible is important when you're facing the ic's, cuz sometimes popo will grab while you where trying separate them and nana is a bit a way so she has to run up to popo before they can start the chaingrab or infinite or whatever they feel like doing. And you really want to mash out before she gets close enough for them to start something....

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

*Bump*
Because this thread is to good to die. Seriously, to get answers to the kind of questions that has been answered here in this thread is why I created an account on smashboards in the first place.

Oh, and I have another question
I've noticed that when you shine someone with fox (who doesn't fall from the shine) that is in the air (while you are grounded) they will have less stun. (I'm sure about this part. its also mentioned in cunningkitsune's fox guide)
If you don't understand what I'm talking about, I'll give en example: when you nair someone who's floaty (like peach or samus) they will lift just slightly from the ground, so when you follow up with a shine, they will be in the air as you shine them.

The question is this: How much shorter is the hitstun when they are shined in the air in relation to when they are shined on the ground? And what is it possible to follow up with from the waveshine before the hitstun has ended if they where shined in the air?
I have been able to combo into a jab and another shine from this, but is it possible to grab them before the hitstun ends?

 

[SCOTU]

I know what your talking about, and iirc, it's half. I think i saw it in NJ'zFinest's "Shine Guide" although on looking it over just now i couldn't find it. To my knowledge, you can't follow it up except with JC moves directly out of the thine (typically require forward motion). i.e. if you nair>shine peach, DON'T waveshine towards her, else you'll eat whorenado.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I think you can do waveshine->jab, i tested this earlier today. I tested it through doing nair->waveshine->jab on peach against a wall (onett) in training mode and it registered as a combo (I did it against a wall so it'd be easier for me doing it as fast as possible, so i wont have to reposition the stick or anything).
the timing is hard as **** though (I only successfully did it a few times), and if the peach CC's the jab you'll eat whorenado anyway
Also im not entirely sure since I didn't test with AR or anything, and maybe the wall affects the whole process somehow.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I've tested this now (the shine-hitstun is reduced when someone is shined in the air thing) and i've figured it out.
The hitstun in itself actually isnt reduced because they are airborne or anything like that. BUT when they touch the ground, the hitstun is canceled for some stupid reason, but thats how it works.
The times that I successfully waveshine comboed into anything after shining peach( which had just lifted from the ground from ny nair) was when I hit her BEFORE she actually landed. As long as you hit them while they are still in the air (which is almost impossible unless they are up against a wall, which they where in my tests) it combos. But if you shine them in the air and then they land (which is usually immidietly) the hitstun is cancelled, so they can escape any follow up or probably even hit you before you've even finished the wavedash.
It's really weird and doesn't really make sense, but it seems that this is how it works. If somebody wants to test this/confirm this/debunk this in AR tests, be my guest.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Okay, on the topic of grabs... does the C-stick have any input in breaking out of grabs? I looked through Mew2King's site, but it didn't mention the C-stick at all, I don't think.

I was thinking if it did, then I could hold the Control Stick in a direction so that I could get the DI when thrown, but still be able to break out of grabs quickly by hitting the shield buttons and rotating the C-stick, maybe tapping A too.

 

[SCOTU]

iirc, the C stick doesn't matter for grab breaks.

@MikeHaggar: thanks for testing that. That does sound like a reasonable conclusion, Thanks.

 

[game set]

-link short hop bairs, doesn'f fastfall, then uses the last possible iasa frame to double jump. instantly afterwards he airdodges into a wavedash.

-same thing except substitute nair for wavedash.

-also the frame data for bomb explosions would be great, I know it has two hits, and sometimes it only hit's once and bounces off without exploding, but i haven't figured it out.


thanks alot

 

[JFox]

When peach fair's someone's sheild, how many frames of shield stun does that have? Can peach float cancel the fair and grab the person before the person shielding is able to grab them? Can she grab them before they are able to move at all? (prob not the second one)

A breakdown of frame data is preferred.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Oh, I see then. Thanks!

According to SuperDoodleMan's frame data, Peach's fresh fair will hit for fifteen frames of shieldstun and seven frames of hitlag. That means you gain eight frames. Assuming you float cancel it and land immediately after the frame you hit it, you get four frames of landing lag and so you have a net advantage of four frames.

Peach's grab comes out on frame seven, which means they have three frames to respond. Most spot dodges are invincible on frame two, so they can spot dodge to avoid the grab, but they can't do anything else (not even shine out of shield)

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^They can also roll, but yeah, they definately can't hit you.

 

[JFox]

SIIICK. LOL

Fair to grab all dai!

 

[SCOTU]

-link short hop bairs, doesn'f fastfall, then uses the last possible iasa frame to double jump. instantly afterwards he airdodges into a wavedash.

-same thing except substitute nair for wavedash.

-also the frame data for bomb explosions would be great, I know it has two hits, and sometimes it only hit's once and bounces off without exploding, but i haven't figured it out.


thanks alot

I don't have an AR anymore, so if someone else wants to take this one =/

SIIICK. LOL

Fair to grab all dai!

Make sure they don't spot dodge. (R+DownC) >>>> (fair > grab)

 

[game set]

I don't have an AR anymore, so if someone else wants to take this one =/

s'cool, i'll just look through frame data for an anwswer unless someone checks it with AR.

 

[shadrach kabango]

True, i did never get around to making the correction. I'll have to do that.

Did you ever get around to it? Or do the values in the first post not have this correction?

Thanks for the thread.

 

[DRGN]

The formulas from Doraki listed in the second post are a little different than what Strong Bad has.

the hitlag and shieldstun time depend entirely on the damage of the attack

the formulas are :

hitlag = (2 + damage/3) frames ; half of it when crouch cancelled.
shieldstun = (4.45 + damage)/2.235 frames

when you use a move a lot, its damage is reduced and so are the hitlag and shieldstun, and this makes them a bit less efficient at pressuring.

Shieldstun

floor{[(4.45 + Damage) / 2.235]}

Damage = Staled damage
floor means to round down

Hitlag

Hitlag = floor{floor{floor{(Damage * 0.3333334 + 3)} * Electric} * CC}

Electric = 1.5 if the attack is of electric element. 1.0 at all times for attacker, however.

CC = 2/3rd for victim only if victim is currently Crouch Canceling.

Damage is, again, staled damage.

Aside from the rounding and slight differences in constants & variables, Strong Bad is saying that how much you use the move has no effect; in other words that only the bare minimum that a move can ever do is used (i.e. fresh/max damage * .55).

 

[Strong Badam]

Aside from the rounding and slight differences in constants & variables, Strong Bad is saying that how much you use the move has no effect; in other words that only the bare minimum that a move can ever do is used (i.e. fresh/max damage * .55).

when did I say this? I clarified "staled damage" as opposed to "unstaled damage," I didn't say that the game always used the fully staled damage of a move. the game takes into account your current staling for both shieldstun and hitlag. note that hitting a shield does not further stale a move.

 

[DRGN]

Oh, I see. Thanks. I probably should have taken it that way, lol.

Where did you clarify that? I'm just curious because I don't see it.

 

[Strong Badam]

Oh, I see. Thanks. I probably should have taken it that way, lol.

Where did you clarify that? I'm just curious because I don't see it.

I clarified "Staled damage" instead of simply "damage" in the formula post.

By the way, the only way to summon me to the Melee boards is with a direct quote. I have these forums hidden now, I am done with Melee, but my knowledge is available for anyone if they require it.

 

[DRGN]

I clarified "Staled damage" instead of simply "damage" in the formula post.

By the way, the only way to summon me to the Melee boards is with a direct quote. I have these forums hidden now, I am done with Melee, but my knowledge is available for anyone if they require it.

Oh, now I think I see what you're referring to. I just interpreted the statements a different way. Anyways thanks for clearing that up.

Ok. I'm working on something that definitely begets some good questioning from time to time, but I think general posting around the boards will quell any (most ) potential summoning abuse. Nice to see you're still around though.