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Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

Juggleguy

Juggleguy

Smash Grimer
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
9,354
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
I'm calling BS on that, I've seen your vids and you definitely know how to L-Cancel. It's just a matter of consistency now. Stop moping and start ******!
 
Strong Badam

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,564
SWF Strong Bad 8:36 pm
alright bob
we're mming at pound
bscar87 8:37 pm
lol
k
how much
SWF Strong Bad 8:37 pm
$5ish? $10ish?
bscar87 8:37 pm
OH ****
SWF Strong Bad 8:37 pm
something like that.
bscar87 8:37 pm
YOU'RE ACTUALLY GONNA BE THERE
****
SWF Strong Bad 8:37 pm
YEAH I KNOW MAN
LOLLL
bscar87 8:37 pm
lol i can finally whip your ***
SWF Strong Bad 8:37 pm
LMAO
bscar87 8:37 pm
man
we have had more $200 money mathces
canceled
lol
ok well i'll train then
i was thinking about just going
no training
but then i'd lose
bc i'm horrible right now
lol
i'm trying to learn this "spacing" thing
SWF Strong Bad 8:38 pm
i understand. you're intimidated by me. it's only natural. i think you stand a chance if you do some training.
bscar87 8:38 pm
ya
SWF Strong Bad 8:38 pm
no guarantees tho

HYPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Roneblaster

Roneblaster

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Messages
6,041
Location
#MangoNation
thats what i mean jugglerob.

consistency is hard, and when i go into a spurts of failing my lcancels i just get down on myself and i'm completely done for that day as far as playing well or having fun while playing.
 
Bamesy

Bamesy

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 29, 2009
Messages
963
Location
...making interesting maneuvers in the Okanagan...
Weekend work is lame.
Never had it aside from playing music at nights, but that's different. :/

S2J saw a couple matches of you against Lucky or something.
You NAIR SO MUCH AND SO FAST!

This might seem silly and (why would you listen to me?) stuff...but...

Try NOT Nairing >_>
You know I spam "NAIR SUCKS" stuff (it's a good move, but lol)

Nair like you do, but every once in a while, DON'T, and see what happens. Waveland backwards or DJ waveland the plat into things etc. SO many times you'd Nair>they Nair you/run in and shield/grab/anything where you could jump again>waveland>bair them/Nair again lol etc.

Something that Hugs does really well is establish that he's a "Giant ball of hitbox and pressure" when he's near you. You do that with Falcon immediately and sustain that with your speed and people adjust to it. If you do that and then ALTER yourself into looking like you still are but move differently, THAT is how 'mindgames' are WON.

If you watch a Mango Falcon against someone, Fox or Falcon or whatever. You can see him Bair quickly or something and land in his shield, then do the same with Uair/Knees/Nairs/Stomps/then suddenly he's in the EXACT SAME SITUATION and WDs OOS and grabs them because he's established that IF HE'S THERE, HE WILL BAIR(etc) and they're ready for THAT, but not what he CHANGES to.

Change = getting better.
I know you probably are excelling superspeed but that's something I think would be awesome for you. :)
You'd probably do it eventually anyway (and this applies to more than just you and just nairs) but yeah, I felt I should point this out. :p

Dropzone Dair *****.
 
B

BigD!!!

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
1,833
i think bamesy's advice is very good, for everybody

if you make them afraid of moves they know you can do early on, you dont have to always do them anymore

i understand that, especially vs fast foxes like lucky, nairs are done out of our own fear as much as wanting to hit them, but mix in some empty short hops where you dont nair, fast double jumps, etc

i was giving similar advice just the other day to a player who was perfect at punishing but didnt know how to create his own openings against sufficiently good players
 
Strong Badam

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,564
Bamesy said:
If you watch a Mango Falcon against someone, Fox or Falcon or whatever. You can see him Bair quickly or something and land in his shield, then do the same with Uair/Knees/Nairs/Stomps/then suddenly he's in the EXACT SAME SITUATION and WDs OOS and grabs them because he's established that IF HE'S THERE, HE WILL BAIR(etc) and they're ready for THAT, but not what he CHANGES to.
Click to expand...
jesus christ, someone finally understands.
doing different things in the same situations is called "mix-ups" and is why high level play is so difficult for most to understand.
 
ETWIST51294

ETWIST51294

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
8,693
Location
Captain Falcon
Mix ups is not a hard concept to understand. I thought that was common knowledge in ALL fgs, and im pretty sure 85 percent of the people here understand it.
 
Strong Badam

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,564
^that was a pretty bad typo LOL
ETWIST51294 said:
Mix ups is not a hard concept to understand. I thought that was common knowledge in ALL fgs, and im pretty sure 85 percent of the people here understand it.
Click to expand...
yeah but people can't seem to understand that. i read advice all the time that's like "do this in this situation" rather than "here are your best options in this situation, mix them up"
 
Bamesy

Bamesy

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 29, 2009
Messages
963
Location
...making interesting maneuvers in the Okanagan...
BigD!!! said:
i think bamesy's advice is very good, for everybody

if you make them afraid of moves they know you can do early on, you dont have to always do them anymore

i understand that, especially vs fast foxes like lucky, nairs are done out of our own fear as much as wanting to hit them, but mix in some empty short hops where you dont nair, fast double jumps, etc

i was giving similar advice just the other day to a player who was perfect at punishing but didnt know how to create his own openings against sufficiently good players
Click to expand...
Yeah you!

Palpi said:
Mix ups are the only thing that work against anybody who doesn't jump into ****.
When your opponent is finding ways to punish one kind of approach, the mix ups work more often =]
Click to expand...
fixed ;)

Strong Bad said:
jesus christ, someone finally understands.
doing different things in different situations is called "mix-ups" and is why high level play is so difficult for most to understand.
Click to expand...
High level anything seems so complicated to anyone who looks into it. It's like "Wow there is a LOT more going on here, I didn't know this before." then into "Wow I know a LOT of what's going on, but I don't know what I'm missing"
Basic steps of improving.

There are few that understand (few meaning all who play or can at least compete at a higher level than the average player) and even fewer that know how to get to that level who actually USE what they KNOW. That's the most difficult part from most as it means doing EVERYTHING YOU DON'T DO NOW and NOT DOING WHAT YOU DO NOW.

If: What you do now isn't THE BEST IN THE WORLD
Means: Don't do just that and also do things you don't do
as it's not the best you can do, but the ONLY way you can do better is to not do what you're limiting YOURSELF to.

I only know a few 'smashers' who actually do this, let alone understand fully. A player locally has played less than anybody I know in the entire WC of Canada, and he's better proportionally than anybody I know because of the way he sees the game. Recently as we were playing, I went on a verge of 3/4 stocking his Fox/Falcon with Mario and then sat for a while thinking. Afterwards, he did WAY better and was actually keeping up for me, and he pointed out something and said this.

"I think I just played some of the best smash of my life tonight. I've always thought of how not getting hit is the most important thing since it seems like getting 0-deathed is almost possible after every hit, so I always play that way. But after you were beating me there, I just started to watch you and how you never pushed passed where you needed to be, because of how I play that way. So I changed so that I wasn't playing like me."

And that's exactly what's needed. He switched how he played entirely, but because of 'HOW HE PLAYS', he was still 'playing like him'
It's strange to explain, but it's needed. I just wish more people could see it that way. >_>
There's a reason I can compete with the best in the world and don't practice or live within 5 hours from anybody. LOL

ETWIST51294 said:
Mix ups is not a hard concept to understand. I thought that was common knowledge in ALL fgs, and im pretty sure 85 percent of the people here understand it.
Click to expand...
It's common knowledge in ALL life. lol
I won't go into detail but...
Knowing something through experience and the experience shared by others is something.
Understanding it and knowing what it takes to apply it to yourself is another thing.
Actually applying it is another.
There are very view that go the whole way. MORE IMPORTANTLY, anybody can at any moment, yet it takes exceptional amounts of 'experience' and 'growth' before most do. This isn't just for smash, it applies to all aspects of life.

tdlr
Don't think of it as 'mixups' or 'mindgames' or anything of that nature.
Think of it as YOU GROWING. Getting BETTER. Not LONG TERM, but IN THE MOMENT.

To Improve = To become different towards what is better.
To become different = to CHANGE
Always change (what you're doing), it's the ONLY WAY TO GET BETTER
Fact of life.*

Roneblaster said:
lol why do mixups when you CAN KEEP DOING THE SAME THING?!!!!?


trololol.
Click to expand...

Because we're all a 'little' insane. ;)
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
bamesy u make excellent points. i've found that one of the best ways to improve is to take in advice from multiple perspectives rather than just my own or some top players

i don't think i can stop nairing though in the near future though sorry

my gameplan vs fox is to comfortably nair until i pick up reads and/or bad habits. its a conservative style that i sorta adapted from nes n00b and dr.pee pee's style and i find it gets me consistent results. I like that guaranteed safety/ hit over riskier situations although sometimes I will make a move if I think they don't expect it (they think i'm just going to nair again like a noob). I believe that's why I am still really bad at edgeguarding because I want a guaranteed hit from an up-tilt rather than going for edgeguard reads.

I'm a more conservative player than most and it's gotten me some decent wins. I do experiment a lot though and when it comes down to tournament try hard mode i just go with the best strategy i got. Until I find something better than nair spam i'll change. For now its great because most foxes do not know how to deal with my f@ggot play and i've fluked wins vs top foxes when I mm'ed them when they come to cali.

I am very experimental though I assure you

What I've learned recently is that dash attack is EXTREMELY underrated in certain spots because it comes out fast enough with decent knockback, letting you hit them in spots where it wouldn't otherwise work.

I think vs lucky in winners semis I dash attacked his double jump onto the edge because yoshi's is slanted and did a weak knee gimp followup. Also sometimes if you whiff a tech read the ONLY move that has a chance of hitting them is dash attack. Against ducking jigglypuffs I find that dash attack at mid percents is great although it will simply knock them down but better than nothing

--
d-tilt is also very underrated as a tech chase move especially when you hit them close to the edge because it's the fastest move you can use to cover multiple options out of a run and way safer than side-b at an edge

a lot of my tricksies are based off of nair spacing too. By spamming nair you build history vs smart/intelligent players and that in my opinion is the best time to make that small subtle change. i do agree though that i still get hit a lot for nairing too much.

i 100% agree that you must do mixups, things like wavedashing on the tip of the edge a few times till they catch on to airdodging in (be barely off the floor from the edge) will make you live longer.

That's why I highly advocate rolling like a n00b until they catch on then start buffering jumps. Once they catch onto that... sit in your shield. Certain characters like Iceys or Peach if they try to predict your jump they'll whiff and you are underneath them which grants you 50 up-airs to knee

Only time you should NOT mix it up is if they cannot punish you or they never catch on. Know your opponents capabilities and adjust. If they can't punish rolls, then I see NO reason not to stop rolling.

empty short hops are pretty good but the better people get the quicker they respond by rolling, shine out of shield, etc. it's great though in high pressure spots and sometimes i KNOW they are going to roll so i can predict and punish correctly

but to be able to win without nair spam that'd be really great. i'm still a work in progress so i hope i find some way to win without playing really ghey. I have lost some respect from some buddies due to my playstyle lol.
 
ChivalRuse

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
That wasn't a very long post.

Johnny, you're right that dash attack is underrated. But if you do that to Hbox I guarantee you'll get rested out of shield. :ohwell:
 
CaptainNanD0

CaptainNanD0

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
447
Location
Dark side
yo at like 45-50% vs iirc tec0 i did it once

i did a downthrow then dash attacked

it hits them right before they hit the ground

then they miss tech, you jab reset then ****

ive tried it vs cpu's at that percent and it works

im gonna try now it out tmr at no johns :)

edit: vs spacies lol
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
ChivalRuse said:
That wasn't a very long post.

Johnny, you're right that dash attack is underrated. But if you do that to Hbox I guarantee you'll get rested out of shield. :ohwell:
Click to expand...
actually got it from playing hbox

when ever i dash dance he'll assume i'll go for a grab and duck and instead i dash attack to hit him
 
Bamesy

Bamesy

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 29, 2009
Messages
963
Location
...making interesting maneuvers in the Okanagan...
LOL I love how you say dash attack is underrated. It's really really good.
I spam it too much too often though. Sometimes it's when I miss a pivot ftilt (which I spam even more) but sometimes I'm just too slow for aerials so DA works.

Dash Attack > Jab Reset is known as the Bamesy combo in my region. It's EXTERMELY effective and mid %.
PS: Everybody will always miss the tech, it's messed up. Same off ftilts mid-combo.

I've only ever pulled a double Bamesy once though and it was my favorite Falcon combo EVER!!!

Dthrow>techchase with dash attack+reset>Stomp>late as they fall dash attack+jab reset>stomp>reverse bair>stomp off stage. It's like my dream to do it again. LOL

And if they DI in, it's all free!
So cute. <3

Never really tried Dtilt for tech chasing though...or just generally using it for anything but very situational edgeguarding (like against a Falcon going too high or something)
Could be fun.

Dash Attack against Jiggs is legit and safe IF they're in the air. They're afraid of you hitting them with an aerial or grabbing them.
If you're in the air, they'll space something at you/back away.
If you're on the ground, they'll go in the air and space something for you to shield.
If they're in the air and you just run RIGHT THROUGH THEM at mid%, they can't shield/crouch/anything but hope to jump ABOVE you (where they DON'T WANT TO BE, so why would they?)
They're trying to space something at you horizontally, not get above you and not be on the ground.
Often it's a free dash attack and it's not punishable by anything but trades, which are good since Jiggs dies first through trades (unless it's rest lol)
(PS:That fox/falcon that I mentioned that is REALLY smart actually mains Jiggs, and it's annoying as ****, but he hates dash attack cause I'm the only Falcon he plays, and it's one of the main reasons I can arpe him still)



Edit: YES CaptainNANDO!!!

And what S2J said about Jiggs

My post is irrelevant repetion now...THANKS GUYS *sarcasm* ;)
Yeah, you know what's up. :D
 
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