Bailey
Smash Hero
I hate the match up Vs. Doc with Falcon, that's why I play Jiggs, it's more fun
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Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]
- Thread starter Scar
- Start date
Welp, glad to see nothing has changed in this matchup and it's still "N.air ***** doc."
-sigh-
Scar
#HarveyDent
lol Yeah that's been my understanding and no one has really beaten it, DJ Nintendo destroyed that strategy with Mario vs me @ No Johns 11/1, check out the vids... his strat was basically dair over and over, it crushed nair and I basically had no approach. IDK if it works as well w/ Doc.
Bailey
Smash Hero
Doc isn't as floaty so he would have less time in the to D-Air.
But Jiggs is still a fun option
But Jiggs is still a fun option
Actually, if capfal keeps getting hit by it yeah that works. I watched those vids but I didnt know FH dair really gave you that much of a problem.
Um... doc and mario are the same weight no matter what stat you look at. >.>
Bailey
Smash Hero
Doc is fatter though. He suffered from the Freshmen 15 in med school.
i dont know if you're kidding or not, so im going to stop right...
... here.
But for the record, they both have the same weight, top falling speed, and average falling speed. Not that it matters to much to a ****in capfal nair. :|
... here.
But for the record, they both have the same weight, top falling speed, and average falling speed. Not that it matters to much to a ****in capfal nair. :|
Kike_Ichigo
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2007
- Messages
- 56
I dont know for me Mario have more floatie Range and less Delay between Hit... so... Im agree with Bailey but I dont know... is just cause I haved Seen with Doc and Mario...
-sigh-
People and their misconceptions about the marios.
Well ok.
Same weight.M2k's stat list said:
Average Falling Speed.m2k's stat list said:
Top falling speed.m2k's stat list said:
__
As for delay between hit, yeah that's where they're different. There's a slight problem with that arguement you're tryin to make though. We're talking about Doc/Mario d.airs over a Capfal n.air.
SDM's MARIO frame data said:
SDM's DOC frame data said:
So yeah, Mario technically speaking has "less delay" than doc when LANDING the u.air, that's it (since you're not supposed to hit the ground with the d.air)
Thing is, a 2 frame window when you get hit isnt going to save capfal from getting grabbed. So it doesnt really matter.
If you want to get real technical, there are actually a few moves were mario is slower thand oc, but that would be completely off topic.
____
And then range?
Where does range play into this? Cause I didnt know we were talking about cape (where mario's is slightly longer than docs) or F.smash (where Mario's Sweetspot is longer than Doc's)
Jiano
Smash Ace
Dash dance to grab owns.
Doggalina
Smash Lord
Scar, I've been trying to moonwalk to ledgehog and I just can't. Most of the time, I do the moonwalk, but Falcon has already sprinted to far for the moonwalk to make it to the ledge. I'm hoping that any advice would enlarge my moonwalk, which right now is only useful for a dash away, moonwalk back to stomp (and the range on that isn't too good).
scar no usey moonwalky 
but it just means you have to get out of that initial dash faster
but it just means you have to get out of that initial dash faster
Doggalina
Smash Lord
Are there any tips for that? I think if I don't jam it to dash, it works better, but I have a lot of trouble doing that.
uhhh im pretty sure magus once made a post about that...but i couldnt tell you..i think its in the earlier pages of this thread
Doggalina
Smash Lord
I searched earlier, and Magus was just talking about the mechanics of moonwalking. I'm talking about the physical action involved.
Instead of dash -> moonwalk, do walk -> moonwalk. >.>
cykofox
Smash Ace
Moon walking is just something that needs to be practiced. Rotate the stick very quick clockwise as the initial dash frames come out.
make sure you are holding back after you rotate.
you just gotta get a sense of that rotating sweetness.
sorry if im telling you something you already know.
make sure you are holding back after you rotate.
you just gotta get a sense of that rotating sweetness.
sorry if im telling you something you already know.
hmmm i thought he gave a way of like...doing a moonwalk in the most efficient manner...but yeah its all about the practice
halcyon.days
Smash Journeyman
Okay so... this is if you're facing left.
Dash to the left but don't go all the way. Just enough to make you start dashing (important).
Then instead of doing a half circle down from left to right do a diagonal motion as quick as you can (you just need to make sure you don't go through the middle, or you'll dash dance instead).
So basically... hit the control stick enough to make you dash then go back to the other side as quickly as possible without going through the middle, and hold back and down.
Also, according to Magus you can moonwalk backwards further by NOT dding because dding has like 2 frames where you turn around or something.
G@BE
Smash Lord
dash dance to grab does ****.....
Anyways... long story short.
I'm amazing
-g@be
Anyways... long story short.
I'm amazing
-g@be
Kike_Ichigo
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2007
- Messages
- 56
Well Dogy Owned me wigth the Info but in the Game I dont know... the difference is more but well xD so... you really just need to Nair in the right moment... when He try to hit you with tge Dair just keep and Nair him your kick have more prioroty... but you need to wait for him.... to do the first hit...
Doggalina
Smash Lord
Hey Scar, I was fighting my friends ICs the other day, and I was able to avoid getting hit when I grabbed him if I did a grab jab before dthrowing. Does this really work or was my friend being a scrub?
DrewB008
Smash Lord
that can work if it surprises them but its not guaranteed
its more reliable if you grab popo than if you grab nana though
its more reliable if you grab popo than if you grab nana though
CAPTAIN_FALCON23
Smash Cadet
Don't stop using your right hand.
Seriously though, spacies are some of CF's most annoying matchups. If you have trouble against a specific Falco, try to learn to learn his playstyle and patterns (or better yet, Falco playstyle/patterns). Stomps are great, uthrow, dthrow, sometimes dtilt. Look for knee combo opportunities and exploit the sacred combo %s (60-70%-ish: stomp > falcon punch / fsmash).
Seriously though, spacies are some of CF's most annoying matchups. If you have trouble against a specific Falco, try to learn to learn his playstyle and patterns (or better yet, Falco playstyle/patterns). Stomps are great, uthrow, dthrow, sometimes dtilt. Look for knee combo opportunities and exploit the sacred combo %s (60-70%-ish: stomp > falcon punch / fsmash).
Wasnt tryin to do it outta disrespect or anything, just spreadin knowledge.
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
lol sacred combo.. thats a tapion punch... sacred combo is knee to falcon punch
halcyon.days
Smash Journeyman
Jona, you made a post about miscellaneous stuff about falcon.
You said to d-tilt after a uthrow @ around 60% because they'll miss their tech.
Even if you were in the opportunity to hit them with the dtilt (ie. they don't DI the throw), the d-tilt has such crappy knockback that I have trouble following it up with anything. Should I just not bother with the dilt until later percentages at around 80?
(This is specifically against spacies, btw)
Vith'dos
Smash Rookie
Honestly, you'd want to save the D-tilts for the early to mid 70s range, started with an U-Throw, and as you said, the 80s and up with the D-Throw and such. Myself, I prefer U-Throw as even with the slight DI, they don't have enough time to get away from the D-til, unless it's behind you as you'd have to turn, which in that case you could just turn and grab again. Although it does set them up for a nice short hopped F-Air/N-Air. But that's just my experience from seein' vids and my own matches against spacies.
Scar
#HarveyDent
Sorry I've been away... but we're back in business.
A lot of times I will not do something I know will work against one opponent because it WILL NOT work against the best opponents. This is not playing smart. Yes it is safer, but on average you should abuse anything that works until it doesn't work, then stop doing it.
1) learn to powershield, duh
2) learn when it is safe to act out of shield
...this is complicated because depending on how technical the Falco is, he can pillar your shield consistently to almost nothing in which case you have to roll, or he is not that good and has a pattern. if you can pick out the pattern, predict and ****. An example of a pattern is like if a Falco hits your shield with dair, he will always shine>dair>shine>wd back. Wait until the wd is going to come and either grab him or stomp out of shield and **** him.
3) get grabs and always cover at least one option!
...grabbing Falco is hard. But if you can do it, whether it is shieldgrabbing a missed JC shine or nair>grab (which can be done OVER low lasers), make sure to tech chase regrabs and build up damage. If you can't do that (I really can't) then when you stomp or knee, make sure it is timed right and just pick a spot! I used to tech chase stomps in between options... meaning it did nothing. Don't do that.
4) learn his recovery options and how to make them suck
...Falco's up+B fire doesn't deal damage or do knockback or affect your character in any way until he actually shoots in a direction. upB into him while he's charging will always work, unlike vs Fox. Weak knee beats upB and most fB timings. Try to NEVER LET FALCO BACK ON THE STAGE.
Dtilt is really something you just feel, sometimes you know they won't expect it so you bust it out, other times you're just bored of everything else.
Yes, if someone treis to tech the uthrow when they land and you hit them with dtilt, they will be UNABLE TO TECH the dtilt, which is why uthrow dtilt at the lowest %s possible will almost always earn you a knee, which is amazing at like 50% or so vs Falco... wow that's like a stock right there.
Answer:
Thanks dude, perfect. It is somewhat because your friend is a scrub, but this is a very important part of Smash. Even if some things don't work perfectly, Smash is a 1v1 game, which we forget A LOT because of how skill level and matchup determines outcome more often than not.
A lot of times I will not do something I know will work against one opponent because it WILL NOT work against the best opponents. This is not playing smart. Yes it is safer, but on average you should abuse anything that works until it doesn't work, then stop doing it.
I guess I'm going to have to write a detailed "vs. Falco" matchup breakdown... but honestly, the match is very very hard. Some things to remember.
1) learn to powershield, duh
2) learn when it is safe to act out of shield
...this is complicated because depending on how technical the Falco is, he can pillar your shield consistently to almost nothing in which case you have to roll, or he is not that good and has a pattern. if you can pick out the pattern, predict and ****. An example of a pattern is like if a Falco hits your shield with dair, he will always shine>dair>shine>wd back. Wait until the wd is going to come and either grab him or stomp out of shield and **** him.
3) get grabs and always cover at least one option!
...grabbing Falco is hard. But if you can do it, whether it is shieldgrabbing a missed JC shine or nair>grab (which can be done OVER low lasers), make sure to tech chase regrabs and build up damage. If you can't do that (I really can't) then when you stomp or knee, make sure it is timed right and just pick a spot! I used to tech chase stomps in between options... meaning it did nothing. Don't do that.
4) learn his recovery options and how to make them suck
...Falco's up+B fire doesn't deal damage or do knockback or affect your character in any way until he actually shoots in a direction. upB into him while he's charging will always work, unlike vs Fox. Weak knee beats upB and most fB timings. Try to NEVER LET FALCO BACK ON THE STAGE.
Don't worry about dtilt if you can't make it work, uthrow>dtilt>regrab is beautiful but it only works vs in DI, which is what every scrub and mid-level player will do, so it's useful for a long time.
Dtilt is really something you just feel, sometimes you know they won't expect it so you bust it out, other times you're just bored of everything else.
Yes, if someone treis to tech the uthrow when they land and you hit them with dtilt, they will be UNABLE TO TECH the dtilt, which is why uthrow dtilt at the lowest %s possible will almost always earn you a knee, which is amazing at like 50% or so vs Falco... wow that's like a stock right there.
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
theyre definately gonna land in front of you so you can knee them once they miss the tech and kill them probly. the lower the percent the more sure you are they will miss the tech. you can only try to tech like once every second i think? like 60 frames or something, i read that somehwere once but dont quote me on it, i forgot exactly what it was. but yea at like 80 perecent you should let them tech and try to raptor boost tech chase or stomp or anything to knee them.
nah like i said the earlier, definitely the better.
edit: wow scar already said it
halcyon.days
Smash Journeyman
3 questions!
Is there any possible way to practice meteor cancelling by yourself? I mean, I seriously suck at it and either press jump too early so I don't cancel at all, or I press it too late and I'm WAY too low to recover.
I guess the same with tech chasing. The only time I've had to learn was when I play friendlies which is only like once every 1 month. Is there any way to practice this? I'm pretty sure CPU's don't tech at all.
I know that Empty Short hops are really good for mindgames and such, but I'm having trouble incorporating them into my game. I always opt for the late uair. When is the most appropriate time for ESH?
Is there any possible way to practice meteor cancelling by yourself? I mean, I seriously suck at it and either press jump too early so I don't cancel at all, or I press it too late and I'm WAY too low to recover.
I guess the same with tech chasing. The only time I've had to learn was when I play friendlies which is only like once every 1 month. Is there any way to practice this? I'm pretty sure CPU's don't tech at all.
I know that Empty Short hops are really good for mindgames and such, but I'm having trouble incorporating them into my game. I always opt for the late uair. When is the most appropriate time for ESH?
Scar
#HarveyDent
I have never had the problem of not having people to play friendlies with, so not only do I not know the best ways to practice alone but even if I did I never would have done them. Does anyone know a good way to do this?
Meteor canceling has been a problem for a lot of people, but you need to make sure of a few things and you'll cancel them much more frequently.
-Wait for the hitlag of the move to be over (for example for Ganon's dair, you can't meteor cancel until after the game freezes in all of Ganon's glory for maybe 3 frames)
-make sure the control stick is at neutral
-smash upB
I'm pretty sure you won't MC if you're holding up and press B.
It's mostly useful because when you jump and aerial all the time, people expect aerials. It's useful as a mindgame, which means that the other person will react predictably and you can punish them for this.
Jumping at opponents usually means one of two things, either they will DD away, or they will shield. If someone is DDing and you don't do a move, then you have no lag when you land so you can react appropriately.
More useful is when the opponent shields. You know their options out of shield are grab, roll/dodge, jump OOS (and consequently any jc moves available and wavedashing). So if you jump at an opponent and they are shielding expecting a nair or whatever and you just fastfall and land, you are in an advantageous situation.
The only time I don't aerial when I jump is when I need the extra mobility, but a nice trick is to ESH behind a shielding opponent and turn around grab.
uhh yeah you cant hold up while doing it, you just essentially mash up b as fast as you can...
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
not mashing at all, its timing
TidalWave
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2008
- Messages
- 159
When I first learned meteor canceling, the key for me was to keep my eyes focused on my opponent more than my own character when I was recovering. This allowed me to see exactly when the hitstun was over and time the up-B correctly almost every time.
Ja
Smash Journeyman
If you play against certain lvl 9 computers they will edgeguard. Some of their edgeguards are meteors (mario). It's a really poor way to pratice it, but I guess it's better than nothing.
strangely mundane
Smash Journeyman
iirc lvl 9 young link uses his dtilt alot for edgeguarding.
Da Shuffla
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2008
- Messages
- 1,810
Go to target test and hit a damaging wall that sends you down, and practice that way. I used Falco's Target test.