Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Xzax Kasrani]

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm only arguing the reasons for why Melee is a more competitive game than Brawl, and pointing out obvious flaws in the logic that others use to disprove it, like not having the same definition of "competitive."

Brawl will be competitive to a degree, but IMO it's a very low degree, especially relative to Melee. So why does this thread not mean anything? It means just what it means. There are people who think that Brawl is as competitive as Melee, and I think that they are wrong, and myself and others are presenting intelligent evidence to back our claim.

Brawl isnt competivite as melee but it isnt a low degree. thats what i meant theres so many people this so many different opinions and that its just one arguement. I think Melee is a good game, my copy works again :D Brawl is still a really good competitive game, just go on www.allisbrawl.com you'll see a lot of really good players

 

[Scar]

How is melee balanced if two players of equal skill face off and 1 dominates the other thats not competition thats a blatent differance in the character not the player.

You're the worst. I can't believe I'm responding to you. NEARLY equal skill implies that one player is slightly better than the other. Melee rewards people for being even SLIGHTLY better than someone else. Little bits of experience, knowledge, mindgames and tech skill manifest as stock differences. This is the sign of a true test of skill.

@Xzax, I have been to All is Melee>Brawl. I post my tournaments there. The fact that there are good people playing Brawl is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and I don't know why you continually bring it up.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Actually, I'd disagree. 64 was an example of the other extreme--the reward outweighs the risk by a mile. Several 0-death combos, overpowered throws, etc... it was almost always better to be the attacker. Competitive in the technical sense and still full of mindgames and the like, but absolutely little risk compared to the reward of getting a hit in.

I say its better because it encourages aggression. Brawl encourages turtling.

Watching two characters attack each other is better/more fun than watching them run away and spam.

 

[Plairnkk]

Brawl isnt competivite as melee but it isnt a low degree. thats what i meant theres so many people this so many different opinions and that its just one arguement. I think Melee is a good game, my copy works again :D Brawl is still a really good competitive game, just go on www.allisbrawl.com you'll see a lot of really good players

Also on allisbrawl.com you'll see Sakurai talking about how he didn't want brawl to be competitive and you'll see him attempting to justify tripping. The true beauty in a game is both players having fun and sharing a hearty laugh, not who wins.

Good ****, Sakurai.

 

[CivicSmash]

All I have to say is that criticizing Brawl positivley or negativley it PART of its evolution and is intregal to its future. I hate it when people say "lets move on already and concentrate on the good parts about brawl. Let look on the bright side" Well, ours ALL of our opinoins are part of its evolution, not just the people who love the game and hate on naysayers. ALL of our opinions are valid, and make up the bigger picture. You cant just say "stop hating on brawl," were not hating, were just expressing our opinion, which matters just as much as everyone elses.

 

[Papapaint]

I say its better because it encourages aggression. Brawl encourages turtling.

Watching two characters attack each other is better/more fun than watching them run away and spam.

It encourages it to a restricting extent, though.

 

[Cookiez]

I totally agree CivicSmash. People don't realise that though they may not be the same game, Brawl is the next installment in the same series so logically comparisons are going to be made between the two.

Also, can I ask why people are paying ANY attention to Jafar at all after a statement like this?

How is melee balanced if two players of equal skill face off and 1 dominates the other thats not competition thats a blatent differance in the character not the player.

 

[Fletch]

I usually play melee when I want to play as mewtwo and roy since there not playable in Brawl.

Thank you for contributing nothing to this thread.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Im sorry im all about brawl but melee isnt fully done yet, and it wont be for awhile. Theres still a lot to learn out there. There can be new techs and stuff. Im playing both brawl and melee because melee is such a good game :D

 

[Scar]

All I have to say is that criticizing Brawl positivley or negativley it PART of its evolution and is intregal to its future. I hate it when people say "lets move on already and concentrate on the good parts about brawl. Let look on the bright side" Well, ours ALL of our opinoins are part of its evolution, not just the people who love the game and hate on naysayers. ALL of our opinions are valid, and make up the bigger picture. You cant just say "stop hating on brawl," were not hating, were just expressing our opinion, which matters just as much as everyone elses.

Wow. Good ****. Why haven't I said that yet. I'm going to start.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Hopefully this formatting isn't too ugly. I really should take my own advice and stop responding to the troll but I can't help myself.


Quote, bovineblitzkrieg:
Hopefully we're all ignoring the troll at this point. Don't let him suck you in anymore, he obviously doesn't believe in logic.

Brawl... is camping. And slow and dull.

Jafar:
You lack logic. And brawl has been out for a month. How fast was melee in its first month. Can you provide a video of the first month of melee?

the first month of melee is irrelevant, there wasn't a massive community built around it and there weren't thousands of skilled players breaking the game down frame by frame, like there is with brawl

Quote, bovineblitzkrieg:
I like the fact that in Melee, you have to make decisions before you're even aware that you have a choice. That's why it's so deep. It's hard to even realize where you can change your tactics because everything is happening so fast.

Jafar:
Thats great how many hours you put into melee? How many into brawl. SO you think that the game you played more you would have more intuition compared to a game which you havent spent as much time.

Give the game time it will speed up.

It's not intuition, it's the amount of time you have to make decisions. Brawl requires fewer decisions in x amount of time... in Melee you have literally dozens of options within that same amount of time. Brawl affords you just a couple... there's much finer detail of control in Melee. Brawl cannot speed up to anywhere near the same level because of the gameplay mechanics, physics, and limits that were purposely placed by the development team (like how there's lag when you grab a ledge now)

Quote, bovineblitzkrieg:
In Brawl, I have forever to think about everything. When my entire strategy has to be "how to get to the camper", and then when I get close they can just smash and it starts over again, I don't have much fun.

Jafar:
Im curious how was melee in the first few months the speed. can you provide a link to it?

Again, irrelevant due to the difference in the community between the release of the two games

My god man, give it up. You obviously don't know what we mean, and you're not going to learn. Our brains process the game differently from yours. You seem to think that Brawl will magically speed up, while we're saying that it simply cannot do that.

It's going to wind up being incredibly defensive - a camping and spamming bonanza. It's pretty obvious that approaching is very easily punishable, as the person reacting to the aggressor has FOREVER to decide how to defend against it. Granted, there's of course depth and mindgames, but the competitive experience is far inferior to that of Melee. For me, the fun experience is far inferior as well.

Melee thrived on those "holy s***!!!" moments where someone did something completely ridiculous, and Brawl just doesn't have that edge.




On a side note, I find it funny how you seem to think that all the advanced techs in melee make it so unbalanced... if it weren't for those techs, characters like mewtwo, roy, mario, and ice climbers wouldn't even be able to compete. And btw, fox does NOT have an advantage over marth. It favors marth, but obviously depends on the people behind the characters.


final edit: and now i'm officially retiring from responding to the troll.

 

[Goldkirby]

I cant speak of tekken. or soulcaliber

but who the hell was ROLL CANCAL a glitch? That was put in the game. Street fighter has used move cancaling in a majority of there games. Heck SF 4 had dash Cancal till they removed it in the latest build.

And MVC2 was crap. MVC on the other hand.

If you don't think roll canceling was a glitch in CvS2 then you don't know what it is. Roll Canceling is canceling a ROLL withing the first 6 frames into a special move, and you keep about 15-17 frames of invincibility on that special move now. Take cammy's spiral arrow for example - it has no invincibility frames, so if it collides with a low tiger shot, cammy will get hit and take damage. With roll canceling however, she will travel through the fireball and hit Sagat if he was dumb enough to shoot it from too close.

 

[Goldkirby]

stupid swf made me double post.

 

[BlackPanther]

There is no slight advantage at all. The best marth player in the world will always beat the best fox player in the world. This has been proven over and over with m2k's marth ****** every single fox he's played against.

It's true your start date is not indicative of your "information", but the ignorance in your posts is.

Melee has not seen it's prime. A 16 year old kid using jigglypuff defeated mew2king at pound 4. Clearly, this game has much more to explore. Of course I am going to compare brawl to it, it's the predecessor. Brawl may be in it's infancy, but with the smash community being as big and experienced as it is, we now know what to look for instinctively. Brawl has yet to impress with advanced techniques. I am going to give it around 6 months before fully declaring if the game cannot be played competitively successfully.

I admire the effort but it's futile. The information you provided was good info but Jafar's an idiot and we've all blocked him already lol.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Tripping isnt as bad as it seems, it can determin the reaction time of players, and there focus on the own character

 

[Endless Nightmares]

It's funny how people say Melee hasn't reached it's prime, but when someone argues that Brawl's only been out for a month, the usual blanket response is something like "we've already found everything, if there were more we would've found it by now cuz brawl isn't deep"

 

[Veil2222]

For most people this seems like a "Macro vs. Micro" debate, melee being micro skill, brawl being macro. Which brings it down to an argument of preference, which is about as valid as opinion. Opinion can be informed, but there are no "perfect experts" or "perfect facts" in this specific field of discussion, so, there are no perfect opinions. The argument for competitiveness I feel is debunked by this fact down to another argument of opinion until things pan out and we get a factual answer. Saying Brawls competitiveness is reliant on how technical it is would be like saying in order for something to be competitive, it has to be complicated, fast, and focused on reflex, fast decisions, and actions, which is not true. This, however, is my imperfect informed opinion, and of course, is open to debate and intepretation.

As for the "turtling" argument, I just don't think people have gotten out of their agressive melee habits yet. It's not that this game really favors defense more so, just more so than melee did. I actually think its been balance between offense and defense because of the many matches I've had to experiment with this exact concept. Again, these are my findings and opinions, but they're what I believe so far for a lot of first hand reasons.

Again, for the turtling argument,

 

[Jack Kieser]

@ Veil2222,

You do realize that most people on the internets are incapable of understanding the difference between fact and opinion, right? What you said is very true: it all comes down, at this point, to preference and opinion. That's where the problem lies; people don't know how to have opinions that aren't the same and still have a respectful, intelligent discussion.

 

[thumbswayup]

I admire the effort but it's futile. The information you provided was good info but Jafar's an idiot and we've all blocked him already lol.

lol yeah i keep thinking people like him will listen to reason, but they never do.

 

[Fletch]

For most people this seems like a "Macro vs. Micro" debate, melee being micro skill, brawl being macro. Which brings it down to an argument of preference, which is about as valid as opinion. Opinion can be informed, but there are no "perfect experts" or "perfect facts" in this specific field of discussion, so, there are no perfect opinions. The argument for competitiveness I feel is debunked by this fact down to another argument of opinion until things pan out and we get a factual answer. Saying Brawls competitiveness is reliant on how technical it is would be like saying in order for something to be competitive, it has to be complicated, fast, and focused on reflex, fast decisions, and actions, which is not true. This, however, is my imperfect informed opinion, and of course, is open to debate and intepretation.

As for the "turtling" argument, I just don't think people have gotten out of their agressive melee habits yet. It's not that this game really favors defense more so, just more so than melee did. I actually think its been balance between offense and defense because of the many matches I've had to experiment with this exact concept. Again, these are my findings and opinions, but they're what I believe so far for a lot of first hand reasons.

Nice to see a newcomer who is open to this, and not one that posts "OMG BRAWL>>>> MELEE YOU JUST SUCK LOLZ". While I agree that it is a matter of preference, most people are going to prefer the system of Melee if they enjoy the competitive aspect, simply because this "tech skill" that it requires separates the good players better than Brawl seems to be doing. Therefore, most of the better players are going to prefer Melee I think while the lesser players will prefer Brawl because it has a smaller learning curve and allows them to compete, and sometimes even win on luck. But again, you are correct, there really is no answer to this debate... but I'll still prefer Melee any day of the week.

 

[BlackPanther]

It's funny how people say Melee hasn't reached it's prime, but when someone argues that Brawl's only been out for a month, the usual blanket response is something like "we've already found everything, if there were more we would've found it by now cuz brawl isn't deep"

Well you know what. When Melee first came out we didn't have nearly as big of a community workin on it like Brawl. When Melee first started out it was played out like Brawl is now with the exception of hundreds of thousands of skillful people workin around the clock tryin to break the game down right out the gates. And guess what the only accomplishments are a few useless *** maneuvers that my grandma could have figured out. I had hopes that the game might have changed when it came to the U.S. and all of the stuff that people have learned from playin the Japanese copy wouldn't even matter and there might be some stuff actually worth usin but nope the game isn't goin nowhere.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well you know what. When Melee first came out we didn't have nearly as big of a community workin on it like Brawl. When Melee first started out it was played out like Brawl is now with the exception of hundreds of thousands of skillful people workin around the clock tryin to break the game down right out the gates. And guess what the only accomplishments are a few useless *** maneuvers that my grandma could have figured out. I had hopes that the game might have changed when it came to the U.S. and all of the stuff that people have learned from playin the Japanese copy wouldn't even matter and there might be some stuff actually worth usin but nope the game isn't goin nowhere.

Do you not see the giant hole in your logic?! If Brawl has had the entire Melee community working on it for a month now... than Melee must have had the entire Melee community working on it for even longer than that! If Melee, in 7 years, has not reached its prime, even with the entire Melee community constantly working on it for, at VERY least, three years, than Brawl has a LONG time to go before it EVER reaches the level of maturity that Melee is at now.

 

[Veil2222]

@ Jack: I don't speak for people who don't understand that, usually I don't even respond to people who can't understand that difference or who can't have a civil discussion on a subject people disagree about, it's just plain counter-productive.

On topic, many people are claiming Brawl doesn't have "Oh snap!" moments anymore. Just moments ago (aside from many times this past week) me and a friend had one in an Ike vs Zelda fight. We're both competitive players and have practiced brawl more than what's healthy, so please, no "dat wud only happen 2 nubz" statements.

We were on the melee yoshi stage with the yellow blocks, I had been trying to learn new approaches and such. The hilarity ensued when I botched and approach and ended up slightly in the air fresh from an air dodge in front of him. Any good Zelda player (or one who plays against Zelda's) knows what happens here. Well, I was around 130%, and I took a hot steaming heel to the face. I ricocheted off of 4, yes, 4 surfaces before violently sliding off the green pipe at the other end of the stage, crashing into the death wall from my extra momentum. I think the most epic thing about it was the full one second pause that occoured when the heel connected, then, of course, my VERY violent death that *should* have ended in my character combusting in some way.

@Fletch, I'm not actually a newcomer, but I do believe post count and join date have *nothing* to do with validity of arguments. Instead, I just believe most people are idiots, and the chance of and given person that joins smash boards being intelligent is pretty small. I'm glad you realize that most of this "debate" is really just a matter of preference and opinion and should be spoken about as such.

 

[Fletch]

We were on the melee yoshi stage with the yellow blocks, I had been trying to learn new approaches and such. The hilarity ensued when I botched and approach and ended up slightly in the air fresh from an air dodge in front of him. Any good Zelda player (or one who plays against Zelda's) knows what happens here. Well, I was around 130%, and I took a hot steaming heel to the face. I ricocheted off of 4, yes, 4 surfaces before violently sliding off the green pipe at the other end of the stage, crashing into the death wall from my extra momentum. I think the most epic thing about it was the full one second pause that occoured when the heel connected, then, of course, my VERY violent death that *should* have ended in my character combusting in some way.

You're saying you missed 4 techs in one hit?

 

[The Blackstar]

Do you not see the giant hole in your logic?! If Brawl has had the entire Melee community working on it for a month now... than Melee must have had the entire Melee community working on it for even longer than that! If Melee, in 7 years, has not reached its prime, even with the entire Melee community constantly working on it for, at VERY least, three years, than Brawl has a LONG time to go before it EVER reaches the level of maturity that Melee is at now.

This is terrible reasoning. The argument is that at the beginning of Melee, the community was like 30 people, and there really wasn't the kind of tournament style play that we have now.

Brawl has thousands of players and multiple tournaments already.

 

[Veil2222]

I missed the first one because of the one second pause, missed the rest because they all literally happened in a half second. There was nothing left of me but a zig-zag of smoke. I tried to tech the next three but my attempt to cancel the first (which I did late) made it to where I couldn't even try to tech again before I was already dead.

Thanks for assuming I suck though .

 

[BlackPanther]

Well for one Jack as stated in another one of your topics you've never used AT's so what the hell do you know? Playing Melee so long people know what to look for now in Brawl and people have been studying the mechanics of brawl extensively and still can't come up with anything but a few useless moves that are only character specific anyway. People just can't stop and be like, "Hey you know what I think this game has reached it's limits" why? Because it is new? You don't have to worship the ****ing game just because it's now that's just fanboyism and that's how all of you people are treating it. Brawl's had plenty of time to be found out and people are already starting to realized that it's a lost cause you can either play this super campy game or play somethin that takes skill and go back to Melee.

@ Veil - If you have video of this oh snap moment then I would like to see it. What that sounds like there is you bein a total nub and gettin an unnecessary boot to the face playin on a stage not normally played on.

 

[PityLord]

Does anyone else think that even with the entire melee comunity working their ***** off to find something usefull and stating that there is no more else to find is just... silly? I mean humans arent gods and make mistakes and can overlook things.

Even without some universal techniques the metagame will develop, just differently from the melee one. Maybe it willl be more counter-character specific? Maybe stage-specific? Maybe the metagame could develop more on 2v2 fights, since the unique character techniques can create some really interesting team tactics?

Anyway dont jump to conclusions now cause you think you have found out everything.

 

[Veil2222]

Black, just a bit of information here that pertains to your... counter argument to Jack. The source of an argument has nothing to do with its validity, saying his argument is debunked by the sheer fact that he doesn't use AT's is incorrect, he could still be right independant of his own beliefs.

As for how the situation came about, I thought I explained it very clearly, I was trying an approach that he was able to counter by mindgaming me into airdodging and I got punished by a heel. He was able to fit it in there because after my air dodge I landed and didn't have time to spot dodge. Also, the stage we were on it almost completely irrelevant, only a few stages could be blamed for an otherwise unlikely/uneccesary heel setup.

But really, I think you're just calling me a "nub" because you don't like people who argue for, support, or have fun playing brawl. You're sig, your attitude, and your other posts pretty well confirm that idea too. So unless you're going to provide a decent agrument without flaming and assuming your opinions are fact, you're going to be ignored.

 

[Fletch]

I missed the first one because of the one second pause, missed the rest because they all literally happened in a half second. There was nothing left of me but a zig-zag of smoke. I tried to tech the next three but my attempt to cancel the first (which I did late) made it to where I couldn't even try to tech again before I was already dead.

Thanks for assuming I suck though .

Didn't mean to imply that, I was just messing around. But seriously, hit that tech next time.

 

[BlackPanther]

Well my negative attitude has stemmed from the negative attitudes of all the people sayin that Brawl destroys every other game in existence and Sakurai is GOD because he made Brawl. Sakurai ****ed up by putting casuals before the hardcore players when in reality that it won't matter to casuals what's done to the game because they're gonna play it anyway the only difference bein that us hardcore gamers care more and will play the game longer. Now that is out of the way, it does matter because you can't say you never used advance techs and not play the game competitive but expect to argue in a topic about the competitiveness of Brawl to Melee it doesn't work that way. Ok you explained it I saw that but the main thing I was tellin you was that it wasn't anything close to bein an "Oh snap!" moment, I would've liked to see a video of it to actually understand what happened instead of just some words that might not even be true(not sayin that what you've said isn't true).

 

[Veil2222]

I'm glad you're backing up your feelings, that makes me much more inclined to be understanding of your position. While I haven't heard a lot of people treating Brawl as gospel, I have seen people loving it for seemingly no reason, so I see where you're coming from. On the note of not using AT's but being able to argue, I myself mained Young Link in melee, and because of how I played him, I really didn't need AT's for much at all. I would L-cancel his dair and maybe his Fair, but that's just common sense. the rest I never used in tournaments, and I did quite well.

My real point is, you can be really well informed on something, enough to be competent enough to argue about it, and not have direct contact/use of that something. Just like I could argue how to best play a Falco or Marth, even though I never played them seriously.

@Fletch, I know you didn't mean it, I was being playfully sarcastic, no big deal. I missed the tech because of my **** melee tech timing, first I instantly teched thinking I would instantly be sent into the first set of blocks, after the huge pause I attempted to tech again and was late. Another instance where I shoulden't have relied on my melee reflexes ><.

 

[Jack Kieser]

@Blackstar: Irrelevant. The argument I was rebutting said that Melee is not at its prime at this very moment. If Melee, in all its time and experience, isn't even at its prime yet, how can we possibly say we're done with Brawl yet? That is the flaw I was countering.

@BlackPanther: I certainly do not ascribe to the 'Sak is a GOD' mentality. I ascribe to a mentality that says that I should try to always be humble, and as such I'll give the game devs the benefit of the doubt before I give any player simply because they made the game; they should know what they intended things to be as. Plus, I do play competitively. I don't wavedash. The two are not the same. You can play in a tournament and not wavedash. You can play competitively and not use every single AT. Thus, I have some degree of credibility, at least as far as logical debate is concerned.

And, this is to everyone... why is everyone waiting for some magical 'tech' to be discovered? Can't people just... play the game as it is? Why do people think that, in order for a game to be played competitively, there HAS to be some supertech that instantly and completely distinguishes players into God-tier and non-God-tier players? Or am I just reading... every post on SWF wrong?

 

[Endless Nightmares]

So...Brawl sucks because of annoying Brawl Sakurai fanboys? Meh not a good way to look at the game imo

I don't think Sakurai and the development team were thinking of casuals OR hardcore competitive gamers when they made Brawl. I think they just...made the game. You know what I mean? I don't think they intended to cater to one or discourage the other. But have you noticed how the comps seem to have been designed like competitive players? I thought of then when I saw a CPU Pikachu spamming thunderjolts in the air on the way back to the stage. Even the silly habits like randomly charging a smash after a kill. lol maybe they're been watching us.

 

[Veil2222]

Jack, this goes back to my "Micro vs. Macro" comment, melee is very micro (technical) oriented, while Brawl is macro (mind games, strategy) oriented. I've been arguing many people reject Brawl for this specific inclination towards preferring micro and saying macro is inferior as a competitive medium, which is wrong.

 

[Jack Kieser]

So...Brawl sucks because of annoying Brawl Sakurai fanboys? Meh not a good way to look at the game imo

I don't think Sakurai and the development team were thinking of casuals OR hardcore competitive gamers when they made Brawl. I think they just...made the game. You know what I mean? I don't think they intended to cater to one or discourage the other. But have you noticed how the comps seem to have been designed like competitive players? I thought of then when I saw a CPU Pikachu spamming thunderjolts in the air on the way back to the stage. Even the silly habits like randomly charging a smash after a kill. lol maybe they're been watching us.

QFT. QFE. QFSparta!

 

[CivicSmash]

My view on the whole maturity/ prime thing is this:

Melee hit its peak prime on March 8, and has fallen since, simply due to the fact that Brawl is out now.

Brawl will hit its prime much sooner than Melee did, simply due to the fact that it is LESS complex in my opinion due to the diminished individual character physics. There is less to learn in Brawl than there was in Melee, so it will peak in popularity sooner.

Brawl is like a corvette. Looks good,nice and polished, and a lot of power in-your-face. Wow everyone check out the engine! v8 wow! All you need to do is just step on the pedal, and listen to the engine roar.

Melee is like a finely tuned/lubed more all-around, wide-reaching,more extensive, better car, like a Benz.

The vette might win in a straight out race, but the benz will kill you around the corners.

Overtime, the Benz will appeal longer to the owner due to its more integrated systems, and overall better performance.

Anyway......I don't believe that Brawl will ever be as good as Melee...but I still like the game, its something new, ya know? Brawl is more of a game for the masses. It will be and is very popular, I just dont know if there will be dedicated fans in 7+ years like Melee. I think that the competition is what made Melee great for so long, and I don't think Brawl can sustain the gamers as long as Melee has. And thats not a bad or a good thing, it is what it is. You can play either one you want whenever you want. Although if Brawl was more complex, the fun would last longer, and that would be good.

 

[thesage]

The "float canceling" of the peach cpu made me lol. Too bad the comps suck more than before lol. And if there were watching us and wanted us to do stuff, there would be combos....

 

[Spellman]

And, this is to everyone... why is everyone waiting for some magical 'tech' to be discovered? Can't people just... play the game as it is? Why do people think that, in order for a game to be played competitively, there HAS to be some supertech that instantly and completely distinguishes players into God-tier and non-God-tier players? Or am I just reading... every post on SWF wrong?

Yeah, there doesn't. Moves are pretty intuitive, and there's a lot of them, and that's all their needs to be. There's enough moves for reflexes, predictions, and strategies to ensue in any given match. Brawl is it's own strain of competitive game, it might not appeal to everyone, a.k.a. some hardcore tournament Melee veterans, but that doesn't make it less competitive, that just makes it a different competitive experience for a dare I say, a different type of person? Which hurts fans of the series who liked Melee, but Melee's not going anywhere, so letting those who want to compete in Brawl do so doesn't hurt anyone.

 

[Pink Reaper]

This needs to be said.

Jack, you stated that everything has not yet been found in melee, yet the pro-melee community usually states that there's nothing left to find in Brawl. Lets get one thing out of the way, we've found everything worth finding in melee. Anything new is usually found by Phanna and involves AR. Nothing new and really useful has been found for a few years now. As for Brawl, I'd say with a couple thousand people playing non-stop for two months+millions playing for two weeks, we've probably accumulated quite a bit of combined playtime. Like, enough to realize that Brawl is REALLY shallow.

@56k: Dude, I had a CPU Fox try and shine spike me @.@ I don't think Sakurai was attempting to make it impossible to be a competitive game but I do think he was trying to make it easier for people to compete and maybe went just a little overboard and made it too easy.