Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Jack Kieser]

@Pink Reaper: I didn't say that. I'm repeating what was said about Melee before. I didn't make up that Melee hasn't hit its prime yet (which isn't the same as finding everything, mind you), but that's the argument that I've seen people use. And, again, if Melee hasn't hit the peak of its playtime in 7 years, then Brawl won't for a little longer either. If everyone just de facto runs back to Melee now because of a misconception in Brawl's depth that comes from the game's youth, then of COURSE it will never be a competitive game; classical psychology calls it a 'self-fulfilling prophesy', if I remember correctly.

 

[Veil2222]

A lot of people *feel* Brawl is shallow, a lot of people feel Brawl is just as good if not better than Melee. These are still opinions based on preference, and as such, are not factual or "right or wrong". Techs can make a game deeper, but they definitely aren't the only governing factor. I don't think it's fair to downplay Brawl because it doesn't have as many techs as Melee.

Also, I really believe that most of the dislike of brawl is because of it's shift of focus. Defense has been buffed, and the game is less focused on technical (micro) skill, to a lot of Melee players, this is a kick in the pants, because that's what they're used to and even expected out of Brawl. This is their mistake, not the games, and thus, the game shouldn't be faulted because of this either. I'm not saying there aren't legitimate grievances against Brawl, I just don't think these specific ones are valid.

 

[Pink Reaper]

if Melee hasn't hit the peak of its playtime in 7 years, then Brawl won't for a little longer either.

Well, here your assuming that Brawl is in fact as deep or deeper than Melee. Its entirely possible that Brawl has hit it's peak. Its not exactly what I want because it would be nice to have a competitive Brawl, but its very possible we've reached the top of Brawl and its very boring up here

 

[Wiseguy]

Let's try this again. I'll try to refrain from retreading old ground, and I'll do my best to not ignore valid opposing points.

Competitive vs Competition

If you look it up in a dictionary, you will find a very different definition. Sometimes the dictionary is not the place to go. Words are clumsy tools we use to try to convey thoughts. We must define the word on our own.

The definition of competitive that has received the most support is the innate property of a game allowing better players to win consistently. This yields my mantra, that which I repeat over and over to prove my point.

I've been trying to pin down exactly why this statement bothers me (besides my obvious bias in favor of Brawl). My last ill fated and ill tempered argument had to do with arguing on the definition of skill, and whether people who win in Brawl deserve to.

If I had thought it through, I should have realized that the reason I can't accept this premise is because I have my own idea of what competitivness is. Being the old fashioned type like Dogenzaka, I instantly thought of the dictionary defintion: "the act or process of competing."

It's sort of like Smash Bros fans who make the argument "Tourament players hate fun!" In their mind, they have this idea that "fun" is playing for playing's sake without caring who wins. They go onto "prove" their claim by pointing to how tourney players dislike items, crazy stages, etc. because they are too random. In fact, how you play a game (be it stock or coin match, Final Destination or New Pork City, playing to win or goofing off) is merely a means to end which is: to have fun. Different people enjoy different things. But by claiming ownership of a word, they are able to exclude people who play in ways they don't like. "What we do is fun. What they do isn't."

I see the same thing is your core argument. You have taken a word with an existing meaning and given it your own meaning: reliable measurement of skill. Again, while many consider skill measurement as an important part of competiveness, its only one component of what makes a game condusive to competition. Other things one might include are a large number of competitors able and willing to compete, a consensus on what qualifies as "fair," an agreed upon defintion of "winning", and a competitive spirit (or a desire to win"). Again, people might have different ideas of what "competitiveness" is. But my making your own definition of "competitive", you are able to exclude methods of play you don't like. "We are competitive players. They are not."

Which, I suppose, is fine. Everyone is free to express themselves however they like. If I want, I can use the word "pea soup" to refer to all food. But when I talk to other people, I shouldn't be surprised when they think I mean soup... with peas in it. Or, I could make a thread entitled "Scar hates puppies." And go on to explain that, by "hates puppies", I mean "makes killer awesome Captain Falcon combo videos."

If your main argument had been: "Brawl is a less reliable measurement of skill than Melee" then people with high levels of knowlege and experience in the area of technical gameplay in both Melee and Brawl could come to this thread and debate the true topic at hand. By throwing in your own defintion of "competitive" you only succeed in generating controversy for controversy's sake as "stupid posters," such as myself, come to debate about semantics. Which I do not think is your intention.

 

[Jack Kieser]

If we're willing to assume the possibility that we've reached the peak of Brawl's depth based off an assumption (that's what it is; let's not mince words. It will stay that way until Sak releases Melee/Brawl's source code), then we also have to assume the opposite based of the same assumption (that we could have missed something and we need to give it time).

The ancient Greek proverb 'Time heals all wounds' is very applicable here. I supposed Veil said it first and better, though.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Do you not see the giant hole in your logic?! If Brawl has had the entire Melee community working on it for a month now... than Melee must have had the entire Melee community working on it for even longer than that! If Melee, in 7 years, has not reached its prime, even with the entire Melee community constantly working on it for, at VERY least, three years, than Brawl has a LONG time to go before it EVER reaches the level of maturity that Melee is at now.

He doesn't mean we're still discovering advanced techniques in melee. The last advanced technique discovered was probably moonwalking and that was well over a year ago. There have been no major advanced techniques discovered for years. He means that the metagame of Melee is still evolving. Where it was previously thought only God Tier / Top Tier characters could win tournaments, we now have a relatively new Jigglypuff player winning a huge national tournament.

It's very doubtful that significant advanced techs exist in Brawl, given the amount of man-hours put into discovering them. In fact it's probable (though I don't have the data to support this claim) that more man-hours have already been put in to discovering advanced techs than were put into Melee for its first three years. Without the foundations of good mechanics providing depth, the metagame won't still be evolving seven years after launch, either. Brawl will stagnate fairly quickly, I expect.

 

[BlackPanther]

@56k - I see what you're sayin but I don't believe that to be the case as in a lot of his interviews and statements he's made that he doesn't want people to thrive and be ahead of the game if they're truly good, which is why he put things in like tripping. And yes I've noticed how the AI plays a bit different but it doesn't matter because their AI and patterns will eventually start repeating.

Seein as how I was doin other stuff when I was makin this post I forgot what I was gonna say so I'm gonna leave it at that lol.

 

[Jack Kieser]

@Shai Hulud: So the question becomes do techs make the metagame, or does a metagame spawn techs? A real chicken-or-the-egg if there ever was one.

Personally, I don't think that techs make a metagame; techs can extend a metagame, but you can have a AT-less metagame that works. And, to be frank, the ONLY reason Melee isn't stagnant is because we don't LET it become stagnant. If we don't let it, Brawl won't stagnate, either.

 

[Veil2222]

I just think people are too focused on techs, and have elevated them to an undeserved level of importance/emphasis.

 

[Pink Reaper]

No, most people are just angry that camping is so **** strong in Brawl, it has nothing to do with techs >.<

 

[Jack Kieser]

^--- Hahaha... really? THAT'S what has people such in a tizzy? Camping?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Oh my dear LORD... I'm never using quick reply again in my LIFE.

 

[Shai Hulud]

@Shai Hulud: So the question becomes do techs make the metagame, or does a metagame spawn techs? A real chicken-or-the-egg if there ever was one.

Personally, I don't think that techs make a metagame; techs can extend a metagame, but you can have a AT-less metagame that works. And, to be frank, the ONLY reason Melee isn't stagnant is because we don't LET it become stagnant. If we don't let it, Brawl won't stagnate, either.

For Melee, techs absolutely made the metagame. People often talk about "mindgames" (by which they mean strategies to create openings and errors) and "tech skill" as if they are separate things, but without the advanced techs there are very few mind games.

Wavedashing--allows precise spacing for attack baiting. I common Marth tactic is to stand close to the edge to bait a ledge-hopped attack, then wavedash backwards to fmash, for instance. Wavedashing increased movement speed and options, allowing for faster and more complicated mindgames.

Dash-dancing/Pivoting--an aggressive method of camping, used to space, bait attacks, etc.

L-cancelling--increased combo potential exponentially

I could go on and on but I think you get the point.

But like other people have pointed out, this is not the main concern with Brawl. The main concern is that hit stun is too low to combo, even for lagless attacks.

 

[Veil2222]

I don't think it's strong , I think people in general are in attack mode too much from conditioning by melee. Because of that, since defense got a buff, they're assuming since defense can counter their excessive aggressiveness, it's overpowered. That's just my idea though, mostly because it paralelles my expirences since I was an agressive player. I've now adapted, gotten rid of melee tendencies, and become a hybrid offense defense player, I win alot more now no matter what strategy the enemy employs.

 

[Pink Reaper]

^--- Hahaha... really? THAT'S what has people such in a tizzy? Camping?

No, THIS is why everyone is in a tizzy.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Again, though... mindgames and metagames exist regardless of techs. Techs can extend, enhance, or lengthen a metagame, but meta/mindgames can, and do, exist without techs.

EDIT @Pink Reaper: Wow... that's straight-up redonkulous. I can see why people would be miffed about that...

 

[peachori]

problem is, melee was pretty campy by most FG standards already. brawl is significantly campier than melee.

 

[Veil2222]

@Shai, mindgames, I have to say of my own definition, are separate from techs. Mindgames exist void of techs, though you can use techs to create mindgames. Here's a quick example, establishing a pattern of attack, then intentionally breaking that pattern to bait your opponent into making a mistake, then punishing that mistake. This is really the basis for almost all "mindgaming", you trick your oponant into either expecting you to do something you end up not doing, or, you trick them into a predictable pattern themselves. No techs needed, but they can be applied.

 

[Pink Reaper]

@Shai, mindgames, I have to say of my own definition, are separate from techs. Mindgames exist void of techs, though you can use techs to create mindgames. Here's a quick example, establishing a pattern of attack, then intentionally breaking that pattern to bait your opponent into making a mistake, then punishing that mistake. This is really the basis for almost all "mindgaming", you trick your oponant into either expecting you to do something you end up not doing, or, you trick them into a predictable pattern themselves. No techs needed, but they can be applied.

This is an Ok-ish example of mindgames but you have to understand what Mindgames are really for. In ANY game mindgames exist and are used to put yourself in the advantageous position. In Melee, mindgames were used to gain control of the match. What this means is that Mindgames were used to set up for a combo and possibly even a kill. In Brawl. you lack the necessary tools(combos) to use the advantage mindgames give you for anything more than one or two hits. Because of this, mindgames in Brawl are mostly meaningless, especially when you can keep control of the entire match with spam/camping.

 

[Veil2222]

I disagree about the combos, can't remember where but I posted a few examples of chars I play and how to mindgame into some combos. But really I don't think mindgames need combos to be effective, especially for characters like Ike where one hit of punishment is enough.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I disagree about the combos, can't remember where but I posted a few examples of chars I play and how to mindgame into some combos. But really I don't think mindgames need combos to be effective, especially for characters like Ike where one hit of punishment is enough.

If you can mindgames into combos that means you AREN'T playing a someone who spam camps. Spamming is an effective way of beating mindgames in Brawl due to the fact that you can't force a spammer to slip up because all they're doing is running away and throwing **** at you. Ike is a horrible character to bring up in this situation because if any character is absolutely wrecked by spam its him.

In short, Mingdames don exits.

 

[Papapaint]

I disagree about the combos, can't remember where but I posted a few examples of chars I play and how to mindgame into some combos. But really I don't think mindgames need combos to be effective, especially for characters like Ike where one hit of punishment is enough.

They're not real combos.

If you can recover before the hitstun wears off, it's not a combo. It's you being a moron for being hit twice. A few combos exist--maybe two or three hits-- but they're usually juust spamming the same move over and over at low percentages.

And camping is godly if done right. Take Falco. He's got decent priority moves, a very fast phantasm, and a godly laser. He's highly maneuverable, and all he has to do is hit you a few times with a laser, then run away. In melee, this was easily countered by approaching from above... but so many characters (including falco) have disjointed or high priority up smashes/airs/tilts.

 

[Veil2222]

I still disagree, it would be nice if people didn't immediately go to the "If that even happens then you and everyone you play sucks" place so fast. I don't get hit by spam as Ike because I'm not dumb enough to pick Ike against characters that can spam really well, or on stages where he has no cover. You *can* make spammers mess up, and you can watch for a pattern in what they do and get around it.

I know you guys disagree, and I don't doubt you have first hand experience to back up what you're saying, but so do I, and no, it's not just because "lulz i sux", my experience is just as legitimate as anyones. We just disagree based on what we've seen, the fact that there are two sides to this means there's possibility on either side.

 

[Papapaint]

I still disagree, it would be nice if people didn't immediately go to the "If that even happens then you and everyone you play sucks" place so fast. I don't get hit by spam as Ike because I'm not dumb enough to pick Ike against characters that can spam really well, or on stages where he has no cover. You *can* make spammers mess up, and you can watch for a pattern in what they do and get around it.

I know you guys disagree, and I don't doubt you have first hand experience to back up what you're saying, but so do I, and no, it's not just because "lulz i sux", my experience is just as legitimate as anyones. We just disagree based on what we've seen, the fact that there are two sides to this means there's possibility on either side.

In all seriousness--

Go play the top players on Wifi wars' league. Play Abscent and Ice and forte.

Tell me that defensive move spamming isn't godly.

 

[Veil2222]

You are, again, debunking my experience on the basis that it's invalid because you believe I'm not good enough at the game to provide and argument based on what I've seen, and what I've done. On the same token, your own argument isn't good enough either. The whole community is a valid resource for potential strategy, I'm saying there is possibility which needs to be explored much more before such a solid conclusion is made. If you won't even accept that, then you're too closed minded to be arguing as you can't be swayed by even the most convincing argument.

 

[Papapaint]

You are, again, debunking my experience on the basis that it's invalid because you believe I'm not good enough at the game to provide and argument based on what I've seen, and what I've done. On the same token, your own argument isn't good enough either. The whole community is a valid resource for potential strategy, I'm saying there is possibility which needs to be explored much more before such a solid conclusion is made. If you won't even accept that, then you're too closed minded to be arguing as you can't be swayed by even the most convincing argument.

No, I'm saying that the TOP PLAYERS use that strategy and it WORKS.

Now you're simply being ignorant.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

And, this is to everyone... why is everyone waiting for some magical 'tech' to be discovered? Can't people just... play the game as it is? Why do people think that, in order for a game to be played competitively, there HAS to be some supertech that instantly and completely distinguishes players into God-tier and non-God-tier players? Or am I just reading... every post on SWF wrong?

It's not that we're looking for a magical tech, it's that we're looking for ways to make the game move faster.

 

[Veil2222]

I'm not, top players aren't the only people capable of coming up with strategies that work.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

No, most people are just angry that camping is so **** strong in Brawl, it has nothing to do with techs >.<

Word.

No techs is alright so long as the gameplay is well balanced. It's just not.

 

[Papapaint]

I'm not, top players aren't the only people capable of coming up with strategies that work.

Other strategies work. None of them win yet.

And I agree, but so far, there isn't anything even sort of remotely convincing to show that the move degredation is even sort of an addition to depth.

 

[MajinSweet]

Camping is uber godly strat that can't be beaten huh? Wheres the proof? I've looked at the results of quite a few in real life tourneys recently, and two of the winning characters that show up often have been G@W and MetaKnight. These two characters win by approaching so well, how can you people honestly say camping is "godly"?

 

[Spellman]

This is an Ok-ish example of mindgames but you have to understand what Mindgames are really for. In ANY game mindgames exist and are used to put yourself in the advantageous position. In Melee, mindgames were used to gain control of the match. What this means is that Mindgames were used to set up for a combo and possibly even a kill. In Brawl. you lack the necessary tools(combos) to use the advantage mindgames give you for anything more than one or two hits. Because of this, mindgames in Brawl are mostly meaningless, especially when you can keep control of the entire match with spam/camping.

As far as I can tell, all that does is make for a longer match. More opportunities for you to mess up your opponent, and vice versa. Once you've hit your opponent hard enough that it knocks them away from you, that's plenty of time for you to recover your ground and set up for your next plan of attack.

Maybe if making one mistake can cost you a stock in Melee and the same is untrue in Brawl, then maybe the tournament standard of lives should be lowered to compensate for the rate of K.O. So instead of 4 lives, make it 2 or something. Or even 1 stock.

Maybe the fact that I play Ice Climbers is why I don't have a problem with spamming and camping. I mean if I am attacking and my opponent is trying to catch me in the grab, I usually just jump at the last moment and they end up grabbing Nana, and since they're kinda stuck like that for a second, I stab them with my hammer. Puh-owned.

 

[Veil2222]

Eh, my own success makes me believe it can be reproduced on a higher level by someone of higher skill than me, or if I decide to spend the time on it, I'll advocate my finding myself in tournaments and see how far they fly. I guess my biggest point is that this game, its metagame, and its tournament scene are all still in the expiramental stage and will be for quite a while before the dust settles to concrete.

I know why you feel the way you do, and there's evidence for it, I'm just on the other side. That's the thing about a lot of these "debates", there's not a concrete answer yet, so people need to agree to disagree if it all comes down to opinion, which is what I am doing here.

 

[Papapaint]

Camping is uber godly strat that can't be beaten huh? Wheres the proof? I've looked at the results of quite a few in real life tourneys recently, and two of the winning characters that show up often have been G@W and MetaKnight. These two characters win by approaching so well, how can you people honestly say camping is "godly"?

They also camp well. Forte's Metaknight is one of the best, and he plays like a campy *****.

 

[MajinSweet]

They also camp well. Forte's Metaknight is one of the best, and he plays like a campy *****.

I assume your talking about sort of a "hit and run", bait the other person into something and punish, wait for them to commit style? When most people talk about Brawl's "godly camping" I first think there talking about projectile spamming shield campers. And if what I assumed is true, then were sort of venturing into murky territory, a lot of successful Fox's played like that in Melee, almost every fighting game has that effective style.

 

[Zankoku]

No, not a "hit and run" style. A "hold a hitbox in front of them and wait for them to get hit by it" style. Meta Knight and G&W happen to have good range and ridiculous priority on their attacks.

 

[MajinSweet]

"hit and run", bait the other person into something and punish, wait for them to commit style?

No, not a "hit and run" style. A "hold a hitbox in front of them and wait for them to get hit by it" style. Meta Knight and G&W happen to have good range and ridiculous priority on their attacks.

Thats why I also said wait for them to commit or as you said, wait for them to get hit by it. Again, this is a style in almost every fighting game ever made.

 

[Corigames]

I'm not, top players aren't the only people capable of coming up with strategies that work.

Not true. Why? The second they come up with an ACTUAL working strategy... they become a top player >_>

 

[Veil2222]

Then I'm a top player , I don't believe that statement, but I do believe that brawl is a new game and I've played enough to compete, I need to get mah lan adapter and fight some "top players" and do real testing. But either way, I could come up with a great strategy, and it could work really well, but if the rest of my game isn't up to par I'll still lose, so I don't agree with the origional statement.

On pancakes note, I started watching videos by the top players on wifi wars to see how I stack up and if they really do seem campy and such and made an interesting discovery, I play Ike like Azen does, and I play MK like Forte does ><. So far I haven't seen anyone really campy other that someone playing against ice's olimar, and he lost.

 

[arrowhead]

Then I'm a top player , I don't believe that statement, but I do believe that brawl is a new game and I've played enough to compete, I need to get mah lan adapter and fight some "top players" and do real testing. But either way, I could come up with a great strategy, and it could work really well, but if the rest of my game isn't up to par I'll still lose, so I don't agree with the origional statement.

On pancakes note, I started watching videos by the top players on wifi wars to see how I stack up and if they really do seem campy and such and made an interesting discovery, I play Ike like Azen does, and I play MK like Forte does ><. So far I haven't seen anyone really campy other that someone playing against ice's olimar, and he lost.

you may think you're good right now or whatever, but once you actually play a pro, you'll realize how stupid they make you feel and how videos suck at showing anything but technical skills