Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Ciel~Image]

Req: Release SSBB Director's Cut w/marginally increased hitstun + marginally increased shieldgrab execution time. Instant happiness for all players.

Of course Nintendo will never ever do this.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Req: Release SSBB Director's Cut w/marginally increased hitstun + marginally increased shieldgrab execution time. Instant happiness for all players.

Of course Nintendo will never ever do this.

I was just wondering, why did Sakurai make take so much time to tweek the games gravity general mechanics. I'm pretty certain that nobody (in their hearts) truly prefers the gameplay mechanics of Brawl. By this I mean the speed, the gravity, hitstun, e.c.t. of Brawl. Sakurai should have devoted all his time to characters, stages, and Single Player instead of spending so much time on developing new gameplay mechanics. If anything, he should have increased the importance of combos.

 

[GreenKirby]

You know what annoys me? The fact that despite the fact that Melee is a much better COMPETITIVE game, literally leaps and bounds beyond Brawl, there's no stopping Brawl from taking over. The fact that Melee fits the tournament scene better than Brawl does doesn't change the fact that all of the hype the game got destroyed any chance of Melee keeping its place as the competitive smash game. I have no problem with Brawl the game, I just have a problem with the fact that Brawl just up and forced its way into the lead.

Why was that responded to me? I was just saying how some people actually think that Brawl is a horrible game because it's less competitive.

Brawl is a new game so of course it's tourney scene will be bigger than Melee if not even for a little awhile.

Anyway, I'm sure the Melee tourney scene will still exists.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Why was that responded to me? I was just saying how some people actually think that Brawl is a horrible game because it's less competitive.

Brawl is a new game so of course it's tourney scene will be bigger than Melee if not even for a little awhile.

Anyway, I'm sure the Melee tourney scene will still exists.

Oh, it was cus I thought it was thought sharing time, and you had said what annoys you so I figured I would say what annoys me too

But your wrong about one thing, melee tournaments will most likely die as Brawl n00bs will complain/avoid any tourney they see that's melee related. I somehow get this feeling that the majority of Brawl supporters here on the boards don't like Melee(this last parts not directed at you GreenKirby, I have no idea where you stand on the issue)

 

[DRaGZ]

This is my last response...I swear, and it'll be to Pink Reaper (unless someone specifically responds to me I guess, then it would just be rude not to respond).

I am a Brawl supporter. However, I LOVE Melee. I think you're confusing "dislike" with "liking more". I do like Brawl more, but Melee isn't much far behind (on a 0-100 scale, I'd say Brawl is a 98 and Melee is a 96, MP3 is like a 89, Galaxy is like a 90, The Orange Box is 98, etc.)

I honestly hope the Melee scene stays alive. Hell, not just alive, I hope it continues to thrive. I think there's definitely a lot of room for Melee. Hell, the SF2 and Alpha scenes are still very much alive despite Third Strike.

 

[Burning Lava]

Scar asked me to come in and explain the fighting game concept in regard to the actual mechanisms behind competitive play. It general fighting games, the entire engine is boiled down to two things:

The Push and Pull: This is where we encounter the term "mind games" most often. It is everything you do to manipulate your opponent, control space on the stage, creating openings to enable you to land either individual blows or combo starters, how you react and pressure shields, etc.

The Punishment: The end result of all push and pull games. Ranging from individual hits to death combos.

In smash, we still have the same basic fighter concept, and are given an additional component:

The Edge: Encompasses all things related to killing your opponent off the sides and bottom of the stage through guarding the edge. This is where we see gimping most often.

For the Smash series, we have seen the balance shift between the push and pull and the punishment.

In 64, there was a heavy reliance on the combo game, making the push and pull less important than being able to consistently death combo the enemy. The only real importance of the push and pull was to make sure you could land one hit before the enemy. (This is a slightly overstated )

In Melee, there was a balance between the push and pull, and the combo game was significantly more balanced with the addition of DI and the reduction of shield stun. There were so many options regarding movement available that the push and pull became equally important as being able to properly execute the punishment.

In Brawl, we see a huge imbalance in the gameplay. The push and pull game has become far more important than the punishment game, as there is such a weak overall combo system. The problem here is that, while they made the push and pull game so much more important, they slowed down the overall game play and removed many of the movement options, and even inserted an unremoveable random variable (tripping) to further gimp movement. Because of this slower pace, the game becomes boring to watch, as we spend more time in the push and pull, then when we manage to initiate the punishment, there is an epic anti-climactic moment because the opponent can't be punished to an extent that would be fair for their mistake. The game is so oriented towards rewarding camping that, competitively, we will likely see projectile characters stand as far away as possible, then shoot as many things as possible until the opponent approaches, at which point they will exchange very little damage, then resume camping. Close range characters have had their options reduced, as players are punished for approaching by running(your only options from run are to dash attack, grab, or jump. Shielding from run puts you at a disadvantage due to the removal of the first frame running shield and the new lagged shield.), and most characters have a disadvantage by approaching from above. Shield grabbing has been upgraded, given the very small amount of shield hit stun from any move, and at the same time ruined because of the inability to combo out of grab, aside from the few characters that now have nearly skill-less chaingrabs.

I will stop at this point, only because the my purpose here is to explain the imbalance of Brawl and why the mechanisms in this game prevent it from being reasonably viable on a competitive level. Sure, they may continue to play the game in tournament and it may even become big, but it doesn't mean it should be. Brawl has ruined all of the work that we, the melee community, put into getting Smash recognized as a fighting game. Brawl is a platformer party game, not a fighting game.

If anyone disagrees with anything, please feel free to respond with your argument so that I can ruin you. I would further elaborate on what I already have, but I'm starving, and it has probably affected the coherence of some of this post.


Edit: @AlphaZealot: The focus from too many players on too many arguments has been on removal of techniques. All of that is not important. This is.

Wow. First, let me make this point clear. I don't want the community to be divided, and I really, REALLY want to love Brawl, but yes I agree that Melee is more competitive. It really is sad to see a sequel to the greatest fighter ever turn out like this. I also agree that this kind of puts a bad name on our community if outsiders from other fighting communities see (and even try) Brawl and think that's what Melee is like. It would be hard for them to immediately see the difference, and they would have to assume that we are all a big joke for getting hotly competitive about such a game.

I'm not sure what I'm getting at here, but I just hope something turns around and we make a couple of miraculous discoveries about Brawl that changes it's potential. As I've said many times, and will continue to proclaim; I'm giving Brawl a year... if it doesn't satisfy my lusts by then, it's back to Melee with me!

(I'll still always play Brawl, heck I paid 50 bucks for it, and it's cool to play casually... and I love Toon Link and many other characters, BUT, for competition, I'll have to look elsewhere... oh well, SSB is too much of a cash cow for them never to make another one... I hate saying this, but... better luck next time Smash Community, we still have the nearly perfect Melee! ...hopefully I can take back my words in a year or even a few...)

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean...the smash community got shafted by a ****ty sequel.

This is a growing point for our community since this is something ALL fighting game communities have dealt with.

Except the Guilty Gear community because all the Guilty Gear games are awesome and Arc Systems cares about both casual and competitive players.

Lucky *******s.

 

[Shai Hulud]

I find it extremely entertaining, replayable and enjoyable. A steal at the 49$ pricetag compared to the pathetic games being released on other consoles that feature a measly 6 hours of core-gameplay.

Sure, why wouldn't I want to shell out over $300 (I don't have a Wii, obviously) for what is essentially a last-generation game with no ostensible depth?

That does sound like a steal--it sounds like Nintendo stealing my money and delivering nothing. **** you, Nintendo.

 

[thesage]

Does playing in high gravity mode for the competitive scene alleviate such problems. People can actually combo in it. So far it doesn't really screw up any recoveries I know of (ness and Lucas are fine, multi-jump chars are fine). This would at least allow us to combo.

And I heard from a friend that another competitive fighter used an alternate game mode to compete (something similar to lightning melee) cuz the game was so slow. I guess we could do that here. It would completely alienate us from newcomers and we couldn't practice combos online, but it's better than holding boring tournaments.

I'm seriously tired of playing hit --> airdodge ---> hit matches. And online is not nearly as good, I cannot play any wc players cuz of lag and lag is not good for Ness. It ruined my gamebattles rank. I need to challenge people I guess?

 

[DRaGZ]

Sure, why wouldn't I want to shell out over $300 (I don't have a Wii, obviously) for what is essentially a last-generation game with no ostensible depth?

That does sound like a steal--it sounds like Nintendo stealing my money and delivering nothing. **** you, Nintendo.

It sounds like you have Wii-envy. The Wii is awesome. What makes you think it'll be the last generation when it has been the dominant console of this generation?

EDIT: Holy crap, I just broke my promise. Gah!

 

[Shai Hulud]

It sounds like you have Wii-envy. The Wii is awesome. What makes you think it'll be the last generation when it has been the dominant console of this generation?

EDIT: Holy crap, I just broke my promise. Gah!

Because it's a last-gen console with motion-sensing technology. Neato. But the XBOX has more functionality and better graphics. The Wii may become the dominant console, but that won't mean it's not overpriced last-gen technology.

Anyway, my point is Brawl is not a "value" buy in any sense. I posit that perhaps some people are apologizing for Brawl's shallow gameplay out of buyer's remorse.

 

[DRaGZ]

Hehehe...overpriced. You're a funny peanut butter cup.

EDIT: Also, I don't know what you mean by apologizing. Even if I hated Brawl and regretted getting it, why would I apologize for it? Is the fact that it's hypothetically a bad game something I should be apologizing for? Is it somehow my fault? Is the word "apologize" even in your understood vocabulary?

Holy roflcopters!

 

[MaverickZer0]

I for one don't regret buying this game, whatsoever. Brilliant gameplay on and offline, enjoyable adventure mode which takes even experienced brawlers 6-7 hours to complete... I'm very impressed with what this game has to offer.

Something marketed as a "party" game, sure has a hell of a lot of depth to it.

 

[Veil2222]

Shai, it really seems you're tauting your opinion as fact. I can see why you don't like Brawl, plenty of people don't for various reasons, but for you to believe in your opinion and expect other people to give it weight, you've got to give other people's opinions the same respect. Flat out stating that "Brawl sucks" in so many words is really counter productive for people that want to at least try to make the most of the game and *then* make a final decision/opinion on the game and will just incite "Wii envy" replies that completely skirt any sort of useful argument.

Personally, I like Brawls changes so far, there's not much I haven't liked. I've had issues weening myself off of melee habits/expectations, as have many, but I've found for each mal-adjusted habit I've shaken off, I do even better at brawl. I play a group of 20 or so people around Murray State competitively, so I've gotten a decent amount of exposure to what we feel the competitive scene here will grow into. The biggest game winners so far have been people who have cast off melee dogmas and have adapted to the slower play by means of better mind games, spacing, timing, and trapping.

I won't end with a tag line like "It's too soon to know anything about brawl", I'll just say I've had fun, and me and my 20 or so friends are going to have fun for quite a while with this game. To us, that is in no way a failure or disappointment.

 

[DRaGZ]

Shai, it really seems you're tauting your opinion as fact. I can see why you don't like Brawl, plenty of people don't for various reasons, but for you to believe in your opinion and expect other people to give it weight, you've got to give other people's opinions the same respect. Flat out stating that "Brawl sucks" in so many words is really counter productive for people that want to at least try to make the most of the game and *then* make a final decision/opinion on the game and will just incite "Wii envy" replies that completely skirt any sort of useful argument.

Personally, I like Brawls changes so far, there's not much I haven't liked. I've had issues weening myself off of melee habits/expectations, as have many, but I've found for each mal-adjusted habit I've shaken off, I do even better at brawl. I play a group of 20 or so people around Murray State competitively, so I've gotten a decent amount of exposure to what we feel the competitive scene here will grow into. The biggest game winners so far have been people who have cast off melee dogmas and have adapted to the slower play by means of better mind games, spacing, timing, and trapping.

I won't end with a tag line like "It's too soon to know anything about brawl", I'll just say I've had fun, and me and my 20 or so friends are going to have fun for quite a while with this game. To us, that is in no way a failure or disappointment.

Heheh...my pointing out of "Wii-envy" was sort of trying to allude to the hilarious idea of "pen is envy", so I was only just poking fun. I was hoping there was some CogSci/Psych major or someone who just knew that and would laugh at it. I guess it was a bit of stretch though, hehe.

 

[Ciel~Image]

Seriously, could someone maybe patch/hack some hitstun into Brawl?

 

[Goldkirby]

Hey Scar, read through your post and the first 12 pages or so of this thread, and I'm gonna post a short response on my opinion. I agree with pretty much all oof what you have to say and your opinions at this time frame. I honestly do not like Brawl as a competitive game as much as Melee right now, but there are a couple of things that give me hope just based on past evolutions of games. Now I'm not saying it will, but I am hoping as much as possible that things in Brawl will be discovered to make it more competitive.

1. SF2 to SF3 - People were *****ing when this came out, since the new systems made a lot of old tactics ineffective. However, these days it is one of the most played fighting games out there, and it is probably just as competitive as SF2 is and was.

2. CS 1.6 to CS Source - When this came out, a lot of the top team refused to move on to Source, and for a good reason. However, I believe new things have been uncovered and a lot of the top teams like 3D and Complexity have made the switch.

Now, maybe Brawl won't end up making this sort of transition where everyone goes from hating the game to finding out that it really is a viable competitive game, but I'm hoping that it will. I think the main way to advance Brawl would be to stop trying to think of the game in Melee terms and find a new way to play it, try finding a way to turn defensive options into offense (I might be going a bit too far here, heh). I know I'm not really debating anything here, but more of just stating that I am hoping Brawl gets more competitive. But this thread is definitely needed, and I might make a post with more meaning when I'm not so tired.

 

[Ciel~Image]

[Req] Sakurai post in this thread.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Seriously, could someone maybe patch/hack some hitstun into Brawl?

I think with AR you could not only hack hit-stun, but gravity as well! The Smash community should be looking forward to AR MAX Wii.

 

[Scar]

I am in an economics class right now. This is an excerpt from a passage we are studying:

"If individuals are not held accountable for decisions and actions that harm themselves or others, they have less incentive to act responsibly in the first place since they will escape some or all of the bad consequences of their actions."

This reminded me of Brawl. Haha.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Hehehe...overpriced. You're a funny peanut butter cup.

EDIT: Also, I don't know what you mean by apologizing. Even if I hated Brawl and regretted getting it, why would I apologize for it? Is the fact that it's hypothetically a bad game something I should be apologizing for? Is it somehow my fault? Is the word "apologize" even in your understood vocabulary?

Holy roflcopters!

The Wii is overpriced. It is the only next-gen console that was profitable at launch from system sales alone. That's because it's last-gen technology sold for $250. You can get last-gen consoles for about $60 now. The Wii is overpriced.

You don't seem to understand what "apology" means in the sense I am using it. This is not my problem. Read a book sometime or consult a dictionary. Actually, if you haven't looked it up already I probably can't count on you to do so. I'll save you a few seconds of clicking and typing:

apology
Pronunciation:
\ə-ˈpä-lə-jē\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural apol·o·gies
Etymology:
Middle French or Late Latin; Middle French apologie, from Late Latin apologia, from Greek, from apo- + logos speech — more at legend
Date:
1533
1 a: a formal justification : defense

Apologetics is the field of defending things through argumentation. To be a Brawl apologist, then, is to systematically reject criticisms of Brawl because of your position as a defender of the faith. But why do people become apologists? Well, there's a variety of reasons. It could be pure fanboyism, it could be buyer's remorse, it could be the hype-factor, or it could be because of a misplaced novelty bias--Brawl is good because Brawl is new; Brawl is good because Brawl is not Melee. I don't know. Pick your favorites.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I am in an economics class right now. This is an excerpt from a passage we are studying:

"If individuals are not held accountable for decisions and actions that harm themselves or others, they have less incentive to act responsibly in the first place since they will escape some or all of the bad consequences of their actions."

This reminded me of Brawl. Haha.

WIN SAUCE! This wins for most ironic statement of the day.

 

[The_Smash_Champ]

Why I think from a good melee players point of view is that right now melee is a deeper game. I mis melee because people i beat in melee through combos, WD, shineblinds, shffls and tons of other tricks i loose to sometimes.

HOWEVER! i have finally found that one of the characters i used, the IC's are also amazing in this game. Their desynching although a little more challenging can be actually used to your advantage. I started practicing with them and learning their new chaingrab techniques and combos and how i should kill each character like i did in melee. I personally find them even better just because of how easy it is to chaingrab the majority of characters and not like in melee where it was mostly only foxes or Falcos winter ****. Its still easy in this game against fox and falco, but also against about 80% of the characters.

Brawl IC's:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lBNGVrQd3dc&feature=related

Melee IC's: Chu dat is a god, this was the reason i started using them 3 years ago.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nHuazOdzk5w

Peach Brawl:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=E9OfEl3cSb0

peach melee:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3Y5iv4x6gtU&feature=related

Beggining melee then brawl Marth:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fqAzaaIADTc

I have also sad news because my main in melee was Captain Falcon, well in brawl if you are still using him, get over it, he is horrible no matter what. No matter how much people deny it, characters are not all equal. Me and my friend have about the same skill in melee and in brawl i have figured out how some characters do against others----it will take too long to do this so leats skip this.

I feel like im wasting time with his game becausei think im not getting any better, however i might not feel it but i am actually getting better. I actually destroyed yesterday with the Ice Climbers and i felt my melee pride coming back, however i still have work to do before i go back to some good ol tourny. Yes there is skill in this game, you just have to find the right character. So far however i see nothing that deep, but ive seen people do interesting things, for example, i know this guy who uses snake that shoots the missle up and grabs you the and holds you so when the missle falls he will kill you, its funny to watch.

However if i had to complain i would say........
Cons:
~Whats up with wolf's long smash attack? i sometimes feel like they screwed up smash attacks.
~We need a couple of techniques to bring this game into a good level, im not talking about WD's or float cancels but something fresh with more characters and not just Ic's and Marth and Peach.
~Whats up with the AAAAA combos? too cheap? way to much damage from some. You cant even grab most of them, even if you shield grab.


Somethings that made the game deeper are->
1.Peach sliding when you dodge and throw the turnip
2.You grab snakes helicopter he cant do it again
3.Ic's Chaingrabs and Dedede's
4. Marths Fair to Dair combo
5. Hugging
6.Sliding shieldgrab (shield grab, in this game its like the only thing you should do, its like god)
7. Go find out for the rest of us!

 

[DRaGZ]

The Wii is overpriced. It is the only next-gen console that was profitable at launch from system sales alone. That's because it's last-gen technology sold for $250. You can get last-gen consoles for about $60 now. The Wii is overpriced.

You don't seem to understand what "apology" means in the sense I am using it. This is not my problem. Read a book sometime or consult a dictionary. Actually, if you haven't looked it up already I probably can't count on you to do so. I'll save you a few seconds of clicking and typing:

apology
Pronunciation:
\ə-ˈpä-lə-jē\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural apol·o·gies
Etymology:
Middle French or Late Latin; Middle French apologie, from Late Latin apologia, from Greek, from apo- + logos speech — more at legend
Date:
1533
1 a: a formal justification : defense

Apologetics is the field of defending things through argumentation. To be a Brawl apologist, then, is to systematically reject criticisms of Brawl because of your position as a defender of the faith. But why do people become apologists? Well, there's a variety of reasons. It could be pure fanboyism, it could be buyer's remorse, it could be the hype-factor, or it could be because of a misplaced novelty bias--Brawl is good because Brawl is new; Brawl is good because Brawl is not Melee. I don't know. Pick your favorites.

So the Wii is overpriced because they decided to make a $50 profit, whereas it is at least a $100 cheaper than another current-gen console which, in terms of gameplay, offer about the same or less? Okely-dokely.

I honestly didn't know about the word "apology" being used like that. But I'm still not seeing that here. These criticisms are still opinions, just as my criticisms are opinions. Why can't people reject opinions without being branded as apologists?

 

[arrowhead]

Somethings that made the game deeper are->
1.Peach sliding when you dodge and throw the turnip
2.You grab snakes helicopter he cant do it again
3.Ic's Chaingrabs and Dedede's
4. Marths Fair to Dair combo
5. Hugging
6.Sliding shieldgrab (shield grab, in this game its like the only thing you should do, its like god)
7. Go find out for the rest of us!

2. this doesn't make the game deeper. there's nothing to compare it to
3. ICs always had incredible chaingrabs
4. you can't list a combo and then say it makes the game deeper. or why not list the thousands of combos you CAN't do in brawl?
5. yeah, but auto ledgegrab took depth away. so did auto-tethering

so the only valid ones are 1 and 6 but 1 only applies to a few characters

 

[Burning Lava]

Seriously, could someone maybe patch/hack some hitstun into Brawl?

Seriously. I was thinking the same thing. I think we could come together to accept the changes made if they used Melee as a guide or something. Is that even possible without like... the source code or something? I don't know.

I am in an economics class right now. This is an excerpt from a passage we are studying:

"If individuals are not held accountable for decisions and actions that harm themselves or others, they have less incentive to act responsibly in the first place since they will escape some or all of the bad consequences of their actions."

This reminded me of Brawl. Haha.

Ha, that really is a good quote, can you let us know who said it, or what book it's from?

@ DRaGZ and Shai; Though I get some of the points you're making, you guys might want to chillax for a bit and maybe re-read the first post. You don't have to but... just sayin.

Also, I agree with whoever posted about how almost every fighting game community has gone through the dreaded crappy sequel, and now it's our turn. We haven't had to deal with this before, but it could make our community stronger. If we survive this, we'll know we're here to stay. (Note: I wouldn't exactly call Brawl "Crappy," but it's not the shot in the arm of our competitive community that it should have been.)

Another thing is that we have a unique problem in that our developer is not really trying to make a fighting game, and more of an "action" game. Most devs want to add depth, and even if some have tried to make their games more accessible, they still have the basic solid foundation of a good fighter. (I'm thinking of MVC2) Brawl is a different beast for a different audience apparently. I'm just glad Melee tuned out so well, and we don't have to be all stuck on Smash 64... yeesh, at least Melee's graphics are pretty decent, so it's not an eyesore if we have to keep playing it.

Well, I could rant all day, but I'll break it off for now. Hopefully our Community holds together no matter what, and hopefully everyone will be accepting of the continuation of Melee tournaments should that be the case. (And it will... face it, Smash 64 isn't even completely dead.) And to Brawl... (Yes, I'm addressing a video game) Please don't let us down, and show us your true glory!

 

[DRaGZ]

Seriously. I was thinking the same thing. I think we could come together to accept the changes made if they used Melee as a guide or something. Is that even possible without like... the source code or something? I don't know.



Ha, that really is a good quote, can you let us know who said it, or what book it's from?

@ DRaGZ and Shai; Though I get some of the points you're making, you guys might want to chillax for a bit and maybe re-read the first post. You don't have to but... just sayin.

Also, I agree with whoever posted about how almost every fighting game community has gone through the dreaded crappy sequel, and now it's our turn. We haven't had to deal with this before, but it could make our community stronger. If we survive this, we'll know we're here to stay. (Note: I wouldn't exactly call Brawl "Crappy," but it's not the shot in the arm of our competitive community that it should have been.)

Another thing is that we have a unique problem in that our developer is not really trying to make a fighting game, and more of an "action" game. Most devs want to add depth, and even if some have tried to make their games more accessible, they still have the basic solid foundation of a good fighter. (I'm thinking of MVC2) Brawl is a different beast for a different audience apparently. I'm just glad Melee tuned out so well, and we don't have to be all stuck on Smash 64... yeesh, at least Melee's graphics are pretty decent, so it's not an eyesore if we have to keep playing it.

Well, I could rant all day, but I'll break it off for now. Hopefully our Community holds together no matter what, and hopefully everyone will be accepting of the continuation of Melee tournaments should that be the case. (And it will... face it, Smash 64 isn't even completely dead.) And to Brawl... (Yes, I'm addressing a video game) Please don't let us down, and show us your true glory!

I think you have very little to worry about. Melee will definitely stay around.

Also, the thing between Shai and I we talked about over PMs. It was hardly an issue, hehe.

 

[Professor Smash Attack]

....seriously? Are we as a competitive community actually talking about using Action Replay to alter the core game to make it competitive? How, exactly, are we going to get newcomers to the scene? Hope they pick up ARs because we tell them it's better, even though they're only good at the game as shipped? Can we SERIOUSLY talk about hacking the game to make the engine just like Melee's?

 

[Spellman]

So the Wii is overpriced because they decided to make a $50 profit, whereas it is at least a $100 cheaper than another current-gen console which, in terms of gameplay, offer about the same or less? Okely-dokely.

I honestly didn't know about the word "apology" being used like that. But I'm still not seeing that here. These criticisms are still opinions, just as my criticisms are opinions. Why can't people reject opinions without being branded as apologists?

Yeah, and processing power isn't enough to sell me on a product alone. If I can get just as much fun out of this or more for cheaper, then it's fufilled it's purpose. It's already granted me many hundreds of movie tickets worth of entertainment. I'm happy the Big N is getting money.

 

[Goldkirby]

I actually agree with Prof. Smash Attack. We should not be using AR to make the game competitive. I think someone said it best earlier that we should take this lemon that Sakurai gave us and make lemonade out of it. I don't like Brawl right now, but I'm trying to find stuff about it that will make me like the game. If the community wants to evolve Brawl, we HAVE to experiment with the core game and not resort to hacks to make it playable. I guess we all just have to adapt our play styles to fit with the Brawl engine, even if it does end up just being people setting up tents all day. There really is nothing we can do at this point except try as hard as possible to find new things about the game to make it more competitive.

 

[Corigames]

I'm going to take a Predisposition to the AR idea because I think it is just as good of an idea as bringing items into tournament play... not good at all.

The game's not THAT bad, but it does feel that melee will be better. That's all.

 

[The Blackstar]

SF2 to SF3 - People were *****ing when this came out, since the new systems made a lot of old tactics ineffective. However, these days it is one of the most played fighting games out there, and it is probably just as competitive as SF2 is and was.

To this very day there is a raging argument about parrying in SF3. Now, I will admit, it makes some cool things possible, like parrying super arts, BUT, it has entirely destroyed the long range game because any player that is not an absolute turd can parry every fireball in the game. It has also destroyed most of the characters without the speed or move set for an up close combo game.

Is the game played on a large competitive scale, yes, however, Super Turbo is widely held to be one of the most finely balanced and competitive games of all time, and that was 10 years before 3rd strike.

The main thing currently killing the scene for brawl for a lot of competitive players, as has been stated before, is the complete and utter lack of a viable reward/punishment system. If I get you off the edge, so what? You don't even really have to recover as most characters will just float back to the stage of their own accord. Then all you have to do is dip under the ledge and auto sweetspot if you want, and nothing can be done about it. As of right now, the edge-guarding from the stage is dead, and characters like Pit and MK are almost impossible to edgeguard.

I can't even mention how many times I've started to give chase to try to follow something up and tripped. It's almost as if the game starts wagging its finger in my face going "No no no, you almost had a combo there, and we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings."

 

[Ojanya]

Melee is way deeper, and was way more fun to play at a competitive level. However, I firmly believe that it will sadly die out. Why? Brawl. The mainstream goes with Brawl, all the tournaments turn to Brawl, etc. I've just decided to suck it up and get good at Brawl.

 

[Scar]

It's almost as if the game starts wagging its finger in my face going "No no no, you almost had a combo there, and we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings."

LOL, I agree 100%. Also @ Beab, Smashpocalypse, Philadelphia's Melee Monthlies, got 50 entrants for singles this month, about on par with every other tournament in the series. Melee is not going to die out, at least not so quickly.

 

[LOL_Master]

Melee is way deeper, and was way more fun to play at a competitive level. However, I firmly believe that it will sadly die out. Why? Brawl. The mainstream goes with Brawl, all the tournaments turn to Brawl, etc. I've just decided to suck it up and get good at Brawl.

"get good at brawl"...........LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL HE SAID GET GOOOOD HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[Doomblaze]

I can't even mention how many times I've started to give chase to try to follow something up and tripped. It's almost as if the game starts wagging its finger in my face going "No no no, you almost had a combo there, and we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings."

I have played brawl since the first day its come out in Japan, when I played it for about 60 hrs over friday-sunday. I tripped about 10 times in those 60 hours, and teched out of 3 of those. Either you are extremely unlucky, or you need to calm down and stop exaggerating.

Everybody, guess what? we know melee is more competitive.We do not need you to tell us. Brawl is different. We know that too. WoW! you would think that we're all in 2nd grade by the amount of times you're saying this (Sorry, no offence to all you 2nd grade smash bros prodigies out there). Please, shut up and accept that.

"get good at brawl"...........LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLL HE SAID GET GOOOOD HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA "

Do you know what a mindgame is?

Using Lol_master as an example, you can see that too many people have come to rely on infinate or high damage dealing combos in melee, instead of using their heads to play.

Let us hope that Brawl will change this, and if not, then you can go against the flow and keep on playing melee for another 7 years. I personally, will not, but if you guys want to be stuck with one game for 14 years, when there is not much more room for the metagame to advance, then by all means do so.

/rant ended
Thank you

 

[LOL_Master]

Do you know what a mindgame is?"

do i know what a mindgame is.........LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLL STFU scrub

 

[Jack Kieser]

... I have to say, this is getting ridiculous. And I don't really think ^-- was necessary.

 

[Jafar]

Melee and brawl were never made to be very competative games. There being changed to be competative by players which in essence makes the game not be what it is.

The competative ness is diffrent. L cancaling was a necessatiy in melee because of major character lag. Wave dashing was un-needed and should have never been used. Its like a glitch in the game. Doing a dash animation when you shouldnt be able to. (correct me if thats way off)

Things that were not added into the game should not be used. If its something you do that gives a good effect because the game does it but is not supposed to it shouldnt be allowed in the first place.

Brawl is much more balanced of a game for now. While in melee fox and falco were very good and managed to smoke most competition.

So far lots of various teams/players characters have won so far in brawl. Game and watch ike dedede snake r.o.b marth and many more.

Brawl is being made into competative game just as melee was, your changing a game from what its supposed to be into a game its not.

The games were never meant to be competative. But u turn off all the items and only play on one -two level's and you take away the whole game.

Yes not using items, or smash balls is ok. But it makes the game naked where its made into a normal fighter which doesnt compete to real fighting games like street fighter guilty gear.

Your playing a game where you have no margin of error while doing a special or a smash.
Its like playing capcom vs snk with EOism.

You just dilute the game.

 

[Catmunnies]

Well, I like to keep things simple.

More fun: Brawl

More Comepetive: Brawl has only been out for less than 2 months. Why the hell are you comp!. . . .ugh, nevermind.

Edit: This isn't derected at the person right above me.