Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[SynikaL]

I want some of Card's lemonade.


-Kimo

 

[Aesir]

I'm all for trying to find new strategies actually learning a game before you go off bashing it is usually a good idea.

However at what point do we say, yes this game is competitive? I dunno about you but I sure as hell wouldn't wait 6 years to find out.

 

[BlackYoshi7]

Inherently, a single elimination or double elimination tournament format guarantees that the best player will not always win, as a small mental slip up by even the best player can result in a tourney ending loss. The fact is, even the best players aren't robots and will make mistakes from time to time and lose, even in Melee. This is mostly in response to posts that are "Brawl is less competitive because the best player doesn't always win", which is true in Melee because every pro has at least dropped a match to someone who was close in skill but not better. People have bad days. No one says golf isn't competitive because Tiger Woods, while clearly the best golfer, has lost tournaments.

 

[I_R_Hungry]

Okay. Now I know you're lying.

Every **** post I've made in the past 10 pages has been about how we should discuss new brawl strategies and work on moving on. Scar agrees.

I'm just going to give up on this **** thread. I forgot that rational discussion just doesn't work on the internet.

I think the difference between you and 56k is that you spend your time making dozens of posts about moving on whereas he just moves on without wasting everyone's time talking about it.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Why does it matter if melee is a more "competitive" game then brawl?
This is primarily a competitive smash board. Thus on this board, whichever game fosters better competitive play is of great importance. The graphics, the number of characters, the music, the single player and all that other jazz is of no importance.

With a lack of competitive potential comes a "weaker" competitive scene and "weaker" competition. Think of something like tic-tac-toe compared to chess. Have you ever heard of competitive tic-tac-toe players?
Melee to Brawl is sort of like chess to tic-tac-toe. The difference is "competitive" potential is not as great as in the provided example, but it helps demonstrate my point.

Oh my god this is genius and I hate that people ignored it. You my friend seriously deserve props just because of how well this works. Let me explain. Tic-tac-toe can in fact be compared to Brawl and Chess can be compared to Melee(to some extent) I'm sure everyone here has played Tic-Tac-Toe and if you have you must have figured out the perfect strategy. As long as you go first, you CAN NOT LOSE. You can either win, or force a draw, this is undeniable. The idea here is that there is one strategy that holds itself so far above the others that it either has to be adopted or you have to lose. In Brawl, as of right now, this is projectile/shield camping. Its simple, pick a spammable character, spam until you force an approach, shield, grab, throw, retreat(since you cant really combo out of throws =\) repeat. This is the BEST strategy. So what can your opponent do? They can lose, or they can force a draw, by doing the exact same thing. Now obviously there's no "draw" in Brawl, so it would actually come down to who camps better winning, but really, thats all there is to it and that makes me sad as this may mean that low tier characters will literally become obsolete as they will probably be the characters that have no way of dealing with this strategy.

Now, in Melee, you have huge amounts of choices, huge amounts of strategies and no character is useless(no not even the bottom tiers) In chess, every piece must be thought about, every move carefully planned, and while your more powerful pieces will most likely dominate, every piece is still useful. Every move must be used correctly as mistakes will be punished harshly and could even cost you a match.

Normally, I hate people who compare Smash to other games, especially Chess, but this seriousl just worked too well, and I felt it had to be expanded upon.

Brawl competitions will be just as "competitive" as melee competitions were, if not more.
Possibly, but in the vernacular of this debate the traditional definition of competitive is not important.

Sure there will still be a competitive scene, but from what many highly regarded players have observered it will not compare to melee. The difference in skill levels between players is of vital importance to competition. In Brawl, just as in melee, there is a large difference between player skill levels. However, if competition in a particular game does not seem to show consistent results between players of differing skill level it really hinders the competitive scene.

As an example lets look at mario kart. There are people who are really good at mario kart and people who aren't. However, in mariokart lesser skilled players can defeat better players on a somewhat regular basis simply because of the game mechanics that try to equalize everyone.

Brawl is more like mario kart in this regard then Melee is. In fact you can go even deeper into the mario kart comparison.

Brawl is sort of like Mario Kart: Double Dash and Melee is like Mario Kart DS. In Double Dash it is alot easier for a lesser skilled player to come out on top. In DS because of snaking and some other techniques the better skilled player almost always would win.

Why does any of this matter, I just like enjoying brawl

It matters because this is a community. This is primarily a competitive community with focuses on betting our skills at the game and partaking in the intense competitiveness that has emerged from the smash franchise.
It is to the believe of a signifcant number of peple within this community that Brawl is limiting our abilities to do these things and thus harming competition.

However, since I'm primarily a lurker and have only made an account recently my post will probably be ignored.

This is also very intelligent and you should not be ignored simply because of your join date. Your post was levels above half of the others here and I refuse to let it be ignored.

 

[greenblob]

Wait... Melee is tech-heavy fighter? Can you guys give me a moment?

ROFLMAO!!!

You could double the tech skill requirements for competitive Melee and it would barely compare with the more traditional fighters out there.

 

[Aesir]

^ LOL.

Melee requires some level of execution, plus knowing when to do these techs is another thing as well. Just knowing how to wavedash is one thing but knowing when to use them is another.

However he's right in that aspect a lot of 2d fighters have crazy amounts of techniques, mvc2 is very tech heavy from what I understand.

 

[vapblack]

wambulance

Originally Posted by Babies:
waaaaaa Brawl is a different game waaaaaa

Maybe if you guys cry about it more, Brawl will become more like Melee!
/crossfingers

if you ever dehydrate due to crying too much, maybe you will just enjoy brawl like the rest of us are doing.

 

[SynikaL]

Wait... Melee is tech-heavy fighter? Can you guys give me a moment?

ROFLMAO!!!

You could double the tech skill requirements for competitive Melee and it would barely compare with the more traditional fighters out there.

You don't know sh*t about Melee or traditional anything. In regards to dexterity and general twitch-skills Melee is easily among the upper echelon of competitive fighters. Really, the only two that one could even seriously posit to surpass it are GG and Marvel -- and even that can be argued.

-Kimo

 

[bceagles]

I love how I originally said something very neutral and thought out, only to be made fun of by some weirdo, who then made fun of me again, and said I stunk at melee. I gave an example of how, instead of blowing people out, the game will make the games closer-which is good. Except for people who make livings off of it ( I understand if you go to the occasional tourney, but constantly?).

 

[XxLunar_KnightxX]

You don't know sh*t about Melee or traditional anything. In regards to dexterity and general twitch-skills Melee is easily among the upper echelon of competitive fighters. Really, the only two that one could even seriously posit to surpass it are GG and Marvel -- and even that can be argued.

-Kimo

hey friend, there was this little unheard of fighter released a while back called street fighter 2... so what you wanna tell me is that street fighter is a less complicated game than smash? now please,please,please dont misconstrue what i;m saying a "lolsmashsucks." thats not what i mean at all, we all know smash is incredibly fun. but what i'm saying is the "cancel your cancel then cancel your garb cancel then jab cancel" in SF2 is more complicated than a wavedash.

 

[Adi]

Melee can be a very technical game but in terms of technical dexterity required it isn't as mindboggling as some games out there.

 

[XxLunar_KnightxX]

^my thoughs exactly

 

[Kami-V]

To Scar, almightypancake, and Cactar, I thank you for making this post/contributing to it and putting into words why Brawl isn't nearly as competitive as Melee. I tried to explain it to my friends/other people on these boards and it didn't work on any of them.

 

[Beat]

I love how I originally said something very neutral and thought out, only to be made fun of by some weirdo, who then made fun of me again, and said I stunk at melee. I gave an example of how, instead of blowing people out, the game will make the games closer-which is good. Except for people who make livings off of it ( I understand if you go to the occasional tourney, but constantly?).

I can only assume I'm the weirdo? And you're bringing things on yourself.

 

[fkacyan]

To Scar, almightypancake, and Cactar, I thank you for making this post/contributing to it and putting into words why Brawl isn't nearly as competitive as Melee. I tried to explain it to my friends/other people on these boards and it didn't work on any of them.

It didn't work because the logic is inheirently flawed.

Let's all compare a game we've been playing for 7 years to a game we've been playing for less than 7 weeks! Common, guys, it's fun!

 

[SynikaL]

Wow, it's 2008 and I'm still arguing this? In my own community?

Wait a minute...no, I'm not.


-Syn

 

[Aesir]

Yeah it's best not to open that can of worms again.

 

[Aminar]

I have a few issues with the argument.

A: The Blanket statement to end them all
It doesn't matter if Brawl is less competitive, it's newer and will draw more attention.

B: Brawl is more balanced (so far) than Melee, making thegame better for a competitive scene.

C: Brawl is still competitive enough where it will make for good tournaments and because of the better balance the game will make for better more diverse tournaments.

 

[Fletch]

Cry more. People need to start looking outside the Melee box and getting creative before they dismiss Brawl as anything less than Melee.

56k, you're the first respected Smasher I've seen say something like this, so I was curious as to what kind of strategies you would consider implementing for use in Brawl. Every decent match I've played so far is just a major camp-fest, and if I try anything it just does not seem to work out. I can't stand to play the game this way, but I also want to win. Can you give us some ideas then as how Brawl has any depth to it? It just seems so one-dimensional right now.

 

[ChuDat]

I agree with the first part especially, and I made this thread so that everyone knows what they're talking about. This is for the people who don't know what they're talking about that frustrate me oh, so much.

Maybe because you try to debate/argue with a bunch of kids. You should know how that is

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

Well, seeing that Brawl is a baby and obviously has a lot of room to grow, I am not worried.

How to make the game grow is up to all of you super haxxor pro Smash players that know more than me.

 

[Scar]

This thread has quickly turned to garbage. No one is arguing anything intelligent. Brawl babies are crying over how some people realize that Melee, at this point, is way better than Brawl. And they have nothing to respond, so instead of trying to figure out how to make the game less campy, they attack me.

Cry more
Wavedashing is hax and dumb
Get over it
Put up with Brawl
Brawl will take over no matter what

These, and more, are all immature responses. Most importantly, they are nothing that I'm going to argue against. I'm not trying to say that Brawl isn't going to take over, nor that you should stop playing it. As I have already said in my original post, which none of you have apparently read or understood.

Most of the posts in this thread have been intelligent, intelligible, and most importantly have contributed to the discussion. This is the only reason why smart people have been posting in this thread. It's a good one. Trash has been contributed to this thread. I am disgusted by how pithy all this stupid arguing is. You guys are arguing over nothing.

You're arguing over nothing in a thread that implores SWF to stop arguing over nothing and to start arguing over something.

I'm interested in responding to anyone who has made valid and legitimate points. I am having a hard time not being distracted by some posts that have been purely moronic, since I want to yell at people for being so bone-headed more than anything else.

But these aren't the people this thread is for. This thread is for people who want to have intelligent discussion.

 

[LouisLeGros]

That's your problem, you think that without that stuff the game can't stand on it's own as fun and skillful, and you're wrong. You have no faith in the desing of the game. You think you know it better than the people who sculpted it from nothing, brought it into existence. It's the worst kind of arrogance. The better racer still wins at mario kart without snaking involved, and the better player wins at brawl without wavedashing, as all the actual evidence continues to suggest.

okay, so you are saying the better racer always win in mario kart?

The game where you can be leading the entire race and then be pulverized with red shells, lightning and a blue shell on the last quarter of the final lap and lose. Mario kart is almost as bad as mario party in random results.

Then I don't think the game can't be fun or skillful without all bugged stuff. The difference in hit lag, shielding, dodging, edge guarding and character movement all detract from competitve play when compared to melee. The wavedashing is far from the reason for melees competitive edge.

You can see it all over this forum and I've seen it with my own personal experience. Brawl does not reward skill as much as melee. The best people I play with it don't like that aspect of it. The people who aren't as good like how they now can compete in brawl and not get ***** like they do in melee.

For general game quality that aspect is probably more of a positive aspect. However, a lot of the competitive scene see the equalizing of player skill as a bad thing.

Yes the best brawl player is still going to beat the worse brawl player every time. There just isn't as much separating the best brawl player from all the really good players as there was in melee.

From playing the game it is obvious that brawl is well designed. However, the design isn't focused on competitve play. It is designed for casual play and it does a great job at doing that. I know a lot of people who just didn't like playing melee because of how they would get beat and get beat hard everytime. Brawl gives them more of a chance and they like that.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Hey Scar, I posted earlier in your thread, but my post was really ambiguous. After playing with both Melee and Brawl and doing a comparison, I came up with the following impressions. The whole thing may not make sense because it is a fragment of another thread I posted in another forum. So, here it is:

BRAWL VS MELEE ON INTENDED ELEMENTS: From here on forth I will compare both games excluding techniques that are not acknowledged by the game. Don't twist this here, you know what I mean.So, a good place to star off is by listing what I feel Melee does better than Brawl.

Combos:
DISCLAIMER: Sure you can execute combos in Brawl's training mode, I'm talking about matches here.

Melee executes the system of combos practically flawlessly. Essentially, if you connect with the appropriate move/grab, you can move in to start the chain. The person getting comboed has this brief period of time to DI out of the combo, counter, airdodge, or pull of some sort of maneuver to counter his foe's action.

In Brawl, many things that started combos are altered so they can't do them anymore, or there is some mechanic granted to stop a combo. Let's start off with the hit stun. In Brawl, after you are hit, you can almos immediately perform another action which contrasts Melee which punished you for getting struck. If your foe can react quickly enough, they'll get a jab or two in to stop your combo.

In Brawl, hitting a foe also sends them much farther than Melee. Since hit-stun is so greatly reduced, and the foes go so far, you might get Falcon Punched before you start the second hit of your combo. From what I've noticed, even the moves with set-knockback are useless combo starters because the knock back on them is so great.

Grabs are also affected by this because their hit stun and knock back are reduced. Normal attacks still have uses because, well, you need to damage a foe to KO them, but grabs now are practically made useless.

This factor is probably the largest one that counters the whole idea of combos. It's the new air dodge. Pretty much all combos involve an aerial strike in the chain of things, but in Brawl, this can all be avoided by tapping L/R and not even thinking because you could just hit the button again. There is no limit to how many times you can perform an air dodge, nor is there any lag after using it so you can strike back.

Brawl will probably end up having a combo game which uses simple 2 hit combos and maybe a finishing move to it...maybe.

Ledge Game:
Definition: The ledge game is the struggle to recover. There is one person recovering and another attempting to halt it.

In Smash, the Ledge Game has three componnents; edgeguarding, edgehogging, and intercepting. Melee has a near perfect blend of all three componnents. If a foe happened to directly land back onto the stage, you'd have a good'ol f-smash ready to pounce on the foe. If a foe wasn't halted by one of the two methods I'm going to later mention and grabbed the ledge, you can edgeguard them by doing a d-smash or d-tilt.

When knocked off the stage in Melee and you were too far to make it back directly onto the stage, the ledge was you last hope. However, most of the time, your foe would jump back and be dangling there taking up all the ledge space there is. Yup, you got edgehogged! This of course could be stopped by an aerial, but most of the time you'd be in "helplessnes" after using a recovery (which didn't move you half-way across the screen back in the day).

This was the most difficuly of the three edge techniques to use, the interception. While it was difficult, it had equal significance to the other two Ledge Game componnents.

In Brawl, interceptions dominate the WHOLE Ledge Game. Edgeguarding is dumbed down because your recoveries are so far, you could usually pass the place where someone is edgeguarding, or DI away from it after using the recovery. Edgehogging is rendered useless because just like I mentioned above, recoveries go so far that you end up in the middle of the stage even if you were knocked of screen.

Melee was more diverse in terms of the Ledge Game and gets points for that. Brawl on the other hand is more limited and focuses on one element, attacking the recovering player at the right time. At least it's made easier.

Stock Span:
Gameplay in Melee was balanced so you usually lived up to 120% on average. In Brawl, everyone lives to long, and it seems like it takes to much effort just to KO someone. There isn't much more to be said here.

Floatiness:
This is personal and subjectional. I think that Melee had the perfect blend of how long you should stay in the air. In Brawl, you stay in the air too long. I might have preferred this if hit stun and knock back were the same like in Melee because so many crazy combos would come into fruition. However, in this case it's just a nuisance.

 

[Kizzu-kun]

I'm feeling more that the problem here is this forum, not the discussion.

I mean, the Brawl Forums makes Brawl seems to be stagnant at competitive area.
Theres no intelligent discussion, no point in most threads.

I agree with this entire post, and clearly agree with everything Card is saying as well. I appreciate a movement to move forward too, but I don't think anyone is going to move forward until it is widely accepted that Melee is a more competitive game than Brawl. Honestly.

This is because just one thing: the ones that accept that Melee is more competitive now than Brawl are the most ones that seems to make intelligent threads, and also evolving Brawl's meta game by spreading information.

Due to Brawl's hype, the Smashboards are now filled with people that don't had any contact with Melee's competitive scene.

But I don't agree with this opinion Scar, making Melee be accepted as more competitive as Brawl.
This is based in people opinion. Trying to change opinions will makes nothing besides hurting the community.
The problem is the immaturity of the community.

I'm sorry for being off-topic, also I'm sorry for my english.
~Kizzu

 

[Scar]

I don't agree with my own quote now that you've isolated it that way. I guess I'm really simply saying that I'm not prepared to forget about the issue so long as there are people arguing the opposing side. I really don't think that the statement, "Brawl is less competitive than Melee" is a biased opinion, however. I think it is plain fact by my definition of competitive, using all current Brawl and Melee experience available.

And your english is fine, and you're completely right. This forum is full of people who don't want to make any points. I'm glad the thread died down, I hope intelligent posts like the last two will continue, and yeah, I find it much harder to talk to people who haven't played Melee than those who have, by and large.

 

[Dogenzaka]

I'm a Linguistics/English major. I also have taken 2 philosophy of language courses. I'm here to tell you you're just plain wrong.

Can't prove it, can you?

Can you lend me one of these 'universal' dictionaries? It would solve the problem of other-people-talking-all-foreign, and make them learn some **** English.

This is the single most ignorant thing I've seen on the brawl boards in my time... and I've seen quite a bit. I am actually now convinced that Dogen is actually some fake account made by gimpy to troll or something.

By universal, I meant respected English dictionaries. Sorry if you didn't understand. Such as Merriam-Webster, or Oxford--whose definitions disagree with the crap you guys made up for the word "competitive".

And if I were a troll, my grammar would be atrocious and I wouldn't respond to posts.

For example, a Flush in poker is much different from flushing the toilet.

And yet both are described in dictionaries. Your fckd-up "Smash" definition, isn't. It's incorrect, and non-existant.

Also, wrong.
Brawl does NOT need to have all the stupid crap from Melee to make it competitive.

@Dogen: You really are an idiot. People who are clearly more knowledgeable than you are fully explaining why you are wrong and you still have the nerve to argue without having any legit information supporting you. I generally do not insult people directly like this, but you are just wasting our time.

I don't consider people who think a **** up physics system in a glitchy game with various exploits makes a game "superior".

 

[crazygoose]

I've gone over and over this until I'm blue in the face, but your ideas of what makes Melee more competitive than Brawl are completely unfounded.

The reason Brawl supporters are so short with you is because we hear the SAME. TIRED. BULL ****. Every thread on this board is more complaining. We get tired of making long posts refuting your points, so we tell you to shut your **** trap instead.

Look, we get it. You would rather play Melee. Most of us are content to not have to pick Marth, Fox or Shiek just to win a game now, or have to learn a bunch of convoluted "advanced techs" to play at high level. This doesn't make the game less competitive, it makes it MORE so. In the time you spend complaining you could be learning to counter, space and set up your combos, but instead you choose to whine about it not being the same game.

Even your precious Azen is ready to put Melee behind for many of these reasons. Many of us hardcore fans are glad to see Melee go as well. All I can say for you is that if you WANT Brawl to be a piece of s***, then thats how you're going to find it. Personally, I'm having too much fun with it to care.

 

[boxelder]

No one's claiming to have mastered Brawl.

3. What? We can still evaluate hitstun, frames, and mathematically evaluate how it works.

Hey lists! I like this post, it was well organized.

Anyway, yes, of course you can discuss Brawl on a theoretical level, and it's interesting to do so, but when the conclusions being drawn don't match up with evidence and reality then the conversation takes a turn for the ****-side.

See, a lot of the people who are unimpressed by brawl (polite way to put it) are also saying some pretty rubbish things - like that there are no combos, The game "reutrns to neutrality after each hit", that projectiles are broken, and that the skillful player is rewarded less than in melee, and that brawl supporters are simply by and large full of crap. Let's make a list:

1.)no combos
2.)returns to neutrality
3.)overpowered projectiles
4.)skillful player wins less consistantly
5.) full of crap

But see, I watch a lot of videos, lots of matches, too many, and obsessive amount. It's not aspirational, I just enjoy doing it while listening to music or podcats or television. It's just something I do. I've seen a lot of people playing the game for well over a month now, people who were putting up videos close to the day it came out in japan. Then I see this person go to tournament, with other very well respected melee players, and dominate with a chataracter who has no projectiles, uses throws heavily, does combo, etc. and I wonder what exactly people are talking about. Here's a link to the matches http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAVRleNeXXs Forte is good, Azen is good, Forte is better and forte wins repeatedly. Both of these players have been playing the game for over a month now. But it's not just this tounament - I see Mikey L. dominate another with some stellar peach play, and gimpy improving his game and doing the same. Again and again I see evidence that directly contradicts your theoretical discussion.

I've already adressed the second point about neutrality by pointing out that

1.) A character recovering or falling is always more vulnerable in smash brothers, and particularly in brawl because of points 2, 3, and 4 -
2.) Up moves in brawl by and large kick ***. Up smash, Up A, up air, hell even up B are pretty much buffed across the board.
3.) off stage fighting is much more varied and frequent due to less restrictive recovery. If it's not for you you should probably adjust your play style.
4.) hyphen smashing, or accelerated upsmash out of a dash makes chasing down a floater more likely. Combine this with a slower fall speed and now you're talking hit chains. (another esp. valuable tool in brawl.)

For all these reasons, hitstun becomes less important in maintaining control. The defensive air game in brawl is likewise extended, but we haven't gone into that yet and really I think in terms of usefulness players are really just scratching the surface on what the air dodge can do. I had a CPU jump up and dodge through my d-air and punish me from above. neat.

Most of this was largely ignored, because it did not support Scar's arguement.

I've pointed out that Forte (again, one of the most experienced players in the world at this point, really) won without using a single projectile.

And really, despite offering all these points, and, unlike those who disagree, offering actual recorded evidence as a basis to my claims I get called full of crap by people who only respond to points that support their own views.

Oh well.

 

[Beat]

Tourneyfegs.

AHA! There! There it is. You show your true colors, sir! You were one of the people who were really good against their grade-school thumbsuckin' pallies. Who'd you play? Sheik? I won't glorify you by saying you "mained" anyone, because that seems to imply SOME aspect of skill. Maybe you played Roy and fsmashed your buddies when they rolled? WOWZA!

What are you doin' here? Why go onto smashboards, which is basically a system for organizing tournaments and its participants for intelligent discussion of the games, and call us ***s for it? Oh, the irony!

Which glitch are we talkin' about? Wavedashing, I bet? You friggin' assclown! Poll the Philly and NJ smashers about me. I can wavedash like a mofo, my movement game is sexy. But that doesn't cut it, you friggin' moron. It didn't break the game. Only idiots and cowards believe that "exploiting a glitch", as you put it so typically, gives you an overwhelming edge in Melee.

I'd love to know which "tourney***" beat you so badly that you became a complete biatch and resorted to the use of that term. I bet he wasn't even that good.

Enjoy Brawl. Us Melee "tourneyfegs" as you spell it will enjoy beating you.

 

[Dogenzaka]

I've gone over and over this until I'm blue in the face, but your ideas of what makes Melee more competitive than Brawl are completely unfounded.

The reason Brawl supporters are so short with you is because we hear the SAME. TIRED. BULL ****. Every thread on this board is more complaining. We get tired of making long posts refuting your points, so we tell you to shut your **** trap instead.

Look, we get it. You would rather play Melee. Most of us are content to not have to pick Marth, Fox or Shiek just to win a game now, or have to learn a bunch of convoluted "advanced techs" to play at high level. This doesn't make the game less competitive, it makes it MORE so. In the time you spend complaining you could be learning to counter, space and set up your combos, but instead you choose to whine about it not being the same game.

Even your precious Azen is ready to put Melee behind for many of these reasons. Many of us hardcore fans are glad to see Melee go as well. All I can say for you is that if you WANT Brawl to be a piece of s***, then thats how you're going to find it. Personally, I'm having too much fun with it to care.

Freaking agreed. Post of the Thread ftw.

AHA! There! There it is. You show your true colors, sir! You were one of the people who were really good against their grade-school thumbsuckin' pallies. Who'd you play? Sheik? I won't glorify you by saying you "mained" anyone, because that seems to imply SOME aspect of skill. Maybe you played Roy and fsmashed your buddies when they rolled? WOWZA!

What are you doin' here? Why go onto smashboards, which is basically a system for organizing tournaments and its participants for intelligent discussion of the games, and call us ***s for it? Oh, the irony!

Ah because you see sir, the sign to the entrance on these forums simply says a forum for Smash Bros. Fans. I happen to be one. A very diligent one. I don't need to be a sweaty, smelly Marth nerd to sign up here.

 

[Aesir]

I've gone over and over this until I'm blue in the face, but your ideas of what makes Melee more competitive than Brawl are completely unfounded.

The reason Brawl supporters are so short with you is because we hear the SAME. TIRED. BULL ****. Every thread on this board is more complaining. We get tired of making long posts refuting your points, so we tell you to shut your **** trap instead.


Look, we get it. You would rather play Melee. Most of us are content to not have to pick Marth, Fox or Shiek just to win a game now, or have to learn a bunch of convoluted "advanced techs" to play at high level. This doesn't make the game less competitive, it makes it MORE so. In the time you spend complaining you could be learning to counter, space and set up your combos, but instead you choose to whine about it not being the same game.

Even your precious Azen is ready to put Melee behind for many of these reasons. Many of us hardcore fans are glad to see Melee go as well. All I can say for you is that if you WANT Brawl to be a piece of s***, then thats how you're going to find it. Personally, I'm having too much fun with it to care.

1. Theres no refuting on your side going on, you're just saying leave brawl alone. Thats not refuting thats ignoring.

2. "Most of us are content to not have to pick Marth, Fox or Shiek just to win a game now, or have to learn a bunch of convoluted "advanced techs" to play at high level"

This along with your join date reinforces the fact that you have no idea about competitive melee. Thus you really wouldn't understand where Scar is coming from, or any half decent smasher for that.

3. Using Azen hurt yourself even more, you do know who azen is right? he's quit smash god I forgot I don't even think you can count it on one hand anymore. Furthermore he's gone and played other games in that time. So using him by saying "Look he's playing brawl he's moving on!" really holds no merit because by that logic he's moved on from melee countless times before.

 

[Dogenzaka]

This along with your join date reinforces the fact that you have no idea about competitive melee. Thus you really wouldn't understand where Scar is coming from, or any half decent smasher for that.

It's called lurking.

Not everyone who visits Smashboards is a member. It's called wanting to stay out of contatct from asshats like you.

 

[boxelder]

It's called lurking.

Not everyone who visits Smashboards is a member. It's called wanting to stay out of contatct from asshats like you.

Someone give this man a cookie. I could tell youthat if I didn't have the flu right now I wouldn't be sitting around all weekend debating the merit of a video game with a bunch of 15 year olds.

 

[Papapaint]

Can't prove it, can you?.

http://forums.philosophyforums.com/philosophy-of-language/

Go ahead and bring this up there. Go ahead and make a thread asking whether or not words only mean what the dictionary says.

Dip****.

Want some examples of common use that aren't in the dictionary?

Discworld- A fictitious location in which many of Terry Pratchett's novels are based.
Wavedashing- A smash term.
Owned- defeated soundly

Each of those are reasonable measures of use in their respective communities. The last one is a word meaning something entirely different, adapted to be used in that sense. But you won't find that in the OED (which, by the way, is the respected authority on the English language... not Merriam-Webster).

 

[JesiahTEG]

I've pointed out that Forte (again, one of the most experienced players in the world at this point, really) won without using a single projectile.

And really, despite offering all these points, and, unlike those who disagree, offering actual recorded evidence as a basis to my claims I get called full of crap by people who only respond to points that support their own views.
Oh well.

Good post man. Just a few things.

1st off, you're right, Forte did win without using a single projectile. However, in an earlier tournament, Azen beat M2K by shooting arrows with pit, and rolling. That's all. The 8 minute match ended with M2K having all four lives, but having 50% damage in arrows. Azen won by damage.

Also, about Forte beating Azen...IMO, this just proves the argument that less skilled players can beat good players.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Forte. He's a good player. However, Azen has been playing smash competitively for years. His knowledge of not just smash, but competitive gaming has surely carried over to Brawl.

If a truly deep, competitive game were the sequel to Melee, then no random player would be able to beat Azen, due to not only Azen's Melee experience carrying over, but also it's a known fact that Azen is a genius at video games in general. I suspect that if a game as deep as Melee, not the same, but as deep, came out instead of Brawl, Forte would not be able to beat Azen.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Gilgamesh]

What are you doin' here? Why go onto smashboards, which is basically a system for organizing tournaments and its participants for intelligent discussion of the games

Ah, there it is again. A common misconception, but i forgive you.


I do agree on the "intelligent discussion" part though. Sometimes i wish we had more of it here at my beloved Smashboards.

 

[Aesir]

It's called lurking.

Not everyone who visits Smashboards is a member. It's called wanting to stay out of contatct from asshats like you.

Yay lets resort to personal attacks!

Honestly I would have liked to think he was a lurker that knew what he was talking about however he didn't.

Where did I come up with the reasoning for this? simple he implied fox/sheik/marth to be the only tourney viable characters.

Which is utterly wrong and just shows lack of understanding in the game. Which is why I said what I did, his join date reinforced what I had thought.

 

[Replacement100]

I really do find it sad that such a thread has turned into garbage due to a few members.
We need a "Intelligent Discussion" area. With heavy modding >.<

I know this really isn't contributing to the discussion much, but I'd like to thank Scar for referring to me in the OP ^_^
It really makes me feel like I've contributed It's also good that you will credit someone even if they have different views (though, I see where you're coming from - there are a few less options available to many characters.).