Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Papapaint]

MvC2 is widely regarded as one of the most imbalanced fighting games of all time. The SF videos were impractical situations and used on non-live opponents.

I think you missed the point.

And yet it's still one of the most competitive. Balance=/=competitive. MvC tournaments are some of the biggest in the world, and it's one of the defining competitive fighters. Also, the second street fighter video was actually on real opponents.

 

[Papapaint]

In terms of what you can do... if you look at the mobility side of things, then it's not necessarily a bad thing since it increases the overall effectiveness of a zoning strategy. Some ppl like that kind of stuff... some would say that Toon Link vs Pit is a ******** matchup, while others would say that Guile vs Sagat is the most exciting one.

Being able to zone effectively with projectiles and stuff doesn't require lots of technical ability... however it still requires plenty of another kind of ability.

About camping: it is the case with many chars so far, but I think that it has been demonstrated that some characters' offense can be pretty effective, MK for example.

Any new fighting game is played defensively at the beginning because the strong offensive options need to be developped.

We agree. Highly. We've spent the whole thread agreeing. In fact, I'd say that a huge part of this thread has been us agreeing, and trying to talk about ways in which we can develop new strategies.

 

[Scar]

Midguy, I'm reading your debates and I just don't see what you're trying to say. You started out with everything being pointless... I mean sure, then I can use your own argument against you. You tell me to take a backseat with Brawl, well fine. I mean I'm not going to because I enjoy the game, but whatever.

Well here you are in my thread which you don't approve of. Everyone else here seems to be learning and sharing and talking. So why are you continuing to post, especially when you're ignoring very good points?

With that said, if you think that there is a trend of projectile spamming being the "most powerful strategy" then yes, you need to adapt. I didn't say adopt it yourself, but you do need to adapt. There are "skilled" players in melee who have a strong understanding of the technical aspect of that game, but in order to win, they HAVE to play with a top tier character. Thieir favorite character could be DK, for example. They may not like Fox, but they like to win, so they play with him. That's an example of a skilled player who adapts to win.

Projectile spamming is too good in Brawl. Powershielding now does nothing, floatiness decreases mobility, it's too hard to get around. Bum plays DK and is a top professional. No one else has tried. I play CF and I do very well in tournaments. Mango came out of nowhere with Jigglypuff. Melee characters are more balanced than you think, people just haven't practiced hard enough with them. Ka-Master, anyone?

You clearly don't know much about the Melee community, nor much about Smash.

edit: Wow @ Jesiah. Excellent post. I have hope for knockback degeneration too, but I haven't been able to do much with it...

 

[Midguy]

My point is that a novice can adapt to win with the same strategy. Even if I've played more games and play smarter, the simplicity of the overwhelmingly powerful strategy dissolves the game into a battle of who projectiles/avoids projectiles better.

AT NOT POINT HAVE I SAID THIS IS NOT COMPETITIVE. IT IS, HOWEVER, MUCH MUCH LESS COMPETITIVE THAN A GAME THAT REVOLVES AROUND A BALANCE BETWEEN APPROACHES, PROJECTILES, DEFENSES, PUNISHMENTS, AND MINDGAMES. WHEN A GAME HAS ONLY ONE TRULY EFFECTIVE STRATEGY, AND THAT STRATEGY MUST EITHER BE ADOPTED OR DEFENDED AGAINST, THE GAME HAS LOST DEPTH.

We are making progress, even if you don't think so. If you think this thread is pointless, stop posting.

So if a novice adapts this overwhelming powerful stategy (lol), then do you feel that a more experienced/skilled player cannot beat them? If so, then who cares. The better player will win and all is right with the world.

You sound so ignorant and clueless to say that this game has only one truly effective strategy. That, coupled with the video's of your play you posted simply prove to me that you're just not as good and knowledgeable of a player as you think you are.

How exactly are you making progress, Dr. King? All I see is *****ing and whining about how projectile spamming ruined your life.

 

[Scar]

I know a lot of people hate Sirlin. But he makes a good point. http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

If there is one tactic that breaks the game, you look for a counter strategy. If something truly breaks the game, there are better games out there. There is no reason for a novice to be able to beat a more experienced/skilled player consistently unless the game is not worth playing.

@Midguy, I am not proposing that that's what Brawl has come to, but if you're suggesting that I shouldn't care and that's the way it should be, you have no place in this conversation and are wasting our time.

 

[Papapaint]

So if a novice adapts this overwhelming powerful stategy (lol), then do you feel that a more experienced/skilled player cannot beat them? If so, then who cares. The better player will win and all is right with the world.

You sound so ignorant and clueless to say that this game has only one truly effective strategy. That, coupled with the video's of your play you posted simply prove to me that you're just not as good and knowledgeable of a player as you think you are.

How exactly are you making progress, Dr. King? All I see is *****ing and whining about how projectile spamming ruined your life.

My video from my first day of having Brawl?

Seriously, if you think you can do it, just take on Hai or overswarm or icedragon or any of the other top wifi players. I go even with most of them. The only two times i've lost all the games in a set were against Hai's olimar and against Unkn0wn's wolf.

In fact, if you think you can take me, I'll happily wifi you. I'm in the library right now, but if you can prove to me that you're better than me without projectile spamming, or that you can projectile spam better than I can, and WIN CONSISTENTLY with it, I will concede a bit to you.

But it still would only prove my point that there is only one dominant strategy, and that it must be defended or joined. I gave you REAL examples, and at this point you're simply shouting with nothing backing you.

 

[Beat]

In terms of what you can do... if you look at the mobility side of things, then it's not necessarily a bad thing since it increases the overall effectiveness of a zoning strategy. Some ppl like that kind of stuff... some would say that Toon Link vs Pit is a ******** matchup, while others would say that Guile vs Sagat is the most exciting one.

Being able to zone effectively with projectiles and stuff doesn't require lots of technical ability... however it still requires plenty of another kind of ability.

About camping: it is the case with many chars so far, but I think that it has been demonstrated that some characters' offense can be pretty effective, MK for example.

Any new fighting game is played defensively at the beginning because the strong offensive options need to be developped.

I believe the opposite to be true. People are more prone to aggression early on because they want to believe it is a viable strategy.

Brawl is still a baby. We're excited about this game. I'm experimenting with four characters at the moment: Lucario, Snake, Kirby, and Falco.

Now, when I'm playing my friends (some of which were decent to amazing at Melee), we don't really camp all that much. I get excited when I play my non-camping buddies with Lucario and Snake and can actually rush them and attempt some new things.

Then Cactuar decides he wants to use Marth or Meta and simply efficiently camps the everloving crap out of me.

Kirby can be played aggressively. So can Falco, Lucario, and Snake (in descending order, IMO). Kirby can gimp offstage and do some low-percentage combos safely. However, when going against a good Melee player, you see just how stupid you are for not camping.

I digress. The point is that, while even good Melee players can play characters aggressively, I believe it is because we want to enjoy this fresh, new game. I played Samus in Melee, yet anyone who's played me will tell you I was notoriously aggressive with her. Can Samus be played aggressively in Melee? Sure! Will she beat ANY half-decent Marth or Sheik doing so? Doubtful.

Play aggressively now, and enjoy it. Then go to a tournament and lose to someone who can outcamp.

 

[Papapaint]

How exactly are you making progress, Dr. King? All I see is *****ing and whining about how projectile spamming ruined your life.

This deserved a separate reply.

I love brawl.

Love.

Love it love it love it.

I have fun playing everyone. Including projectile spammers.

I don't mind losing.

Projectile spamming has not ruined my life. It hasn't affected my life. I have no strong opinion on it.

It does limit the game. That's all! I haven't seen you provide a single **** piece of evidence showing otherwise. All of the current top wifi players ARE PROJECTILE SPAMMERS! Until I lost 3 times in a row, I was #7 on that list, and I WAS A PROJECTILE SPAMMER.

The game is ****ing fun. It's not deep. Wii boxing is fun and competitive. It's not deep.

 

[boxelder]

Abusing wifi lag with projectile spam to win a meaningless competiton. Classy.

 

[bceagles]

Listen and you will hear the truth. Brawl may end up having less competitions for skilled players, BUT, there will be much more competition due to the fact the game is more balanced. Example:
Player A has won 7 Melee tournaments.
Player B has won 0 Melee tournaments-he went to one and came in last place and gave up.
A and B face eachother in a brawl match.
The game is 10 stock.
A choses _____, B chooses _____.
The match goes to the point where both players have more than 100% and 1 live left.
The moral of the story: Brawl is a game that anyone can win. Melee is a game that only the skilled survive.
Who has more fun- The winner or the loser?
Both.

 

[XxLunar_KnightxX]

melee, i do believe, is the more competitive game for those who use advanced techniques like they're going out of style. yeah, you've got all of that randomness between what g&w bulls on side b and what peach pulls out of the ground, but for the most part melee was more "hardcore". that brings one to assume that brawl might be purposefully less "hardcore" due to the wii's mostly casual audience. and yeah. i have little room to talk, since i'm a newb, but i think that both are insanely fun masterpieces of video gaming and that neither is better or worse due to technicalities or glitches that allow you to do another 4% damage to a certain character on a certain level with an AT.

 

[Papapaint]

Abusing wifi lag with projectile spam to win a meaningless competiton. Classy.

Sorry, you've just demonstrated significant ignorance in how "lag" works. A wired connection at medium distance (I've mostly played people in VA, MD, and NC) depletes lag all the way to +/- 3 frames. Which is not significant in a projectile war. GG.

 

[Midguy]

Midguy, I'm reading your debates and I just don't see what you're trying to say. You started out with everything being pointless... I mean sure, then I can use your own argument against you. You tell me to take a backseat with Brawl, well fine. I mean I'm not going to because I enjoy the game, but whatever.

Sure, you can use my own argument against me. My point was that I don't see the point in comparing this game or its competitive aspects to Melee. All it does is hinder the progression of Brawl, in my eyes. Like someone so eloquently put earlier, we were given lemons, and some are holding lemons while others are setting up lemonade stands. I just see you and all the other people who continue to bring this up as holding onto lemons.

Well here you are in my thread which you don't approve of. Everyone else here seems to be learning and sharing and talking. So why are you continuing to post, especially when you're ignoring very good points?

I'm posting, because I have the right to express my opinion. I was also attempting to clear up misunderstandings that pancake had regarding my post. Explain to me what "very good points" I am ignoring, because I don't see what those points are or their relevance to the points I have made

Projectile spamming is too good in Brawl. Powershielding now does nothing, floatiness decreases mobility, it's too hard to get around. Bum plays DK and is a top professional. No one else has tried. I play CF and I do very well in tournaments. Mango came out of nowhere with Jigglypuff. Melee characters are more balanced than you think, people just haven't practiced hard enough with them. Ka-Master, anyone

You clearly don't know much about the Melee community, nor much about Smash.

And who are you to tell me how much I do or do not know about smash? Like I said before, you guys just need to let it go and move on. If you were really concerned with advancing the game and the community, you wouldn't continue to make this comparison and complain about all the things that YOU think are wrong with this game 2 months after release after playing Melee for 7 years (does that not sound the slightest bit silly to you?). If you think that projectile spamming is too good, then figure out a way to combat it and shut it down. Don't glamorize it and praise it as the unstoppable strat that ruined Smash Bros. because I promise you that there are plenty of people who don't have a problem with going against it. Whether it involves developing a better approach strategy, or resorting to the strat themselves and improving upon it.

 

[Papapaint]

melee, i do believe, is the more competitive game for those who use advanced techniques like they're going out of style. yeah, you've got all of that randomness between what g&w bulls on side b and what peach pulls out of the ground, but for the most part melee was more "hardcore". that brings one to assume that brawl might be purposefully less "hardcore" due to the wii's mostly casual audience. and yeah. i have little room to talk, since i'm a newb, but i think that both are insanely fun masterpieces of video gaming and that neither is better or worse due to technicalities or glitches that allow you to do another 4% damage to a certain character on a certain level with an AT.

These posts need to stop. No offense man, but this isn't a thread about which game is better or worse.

Personally, I really do think Brawl is more fun. It's wackier, it's prettier, it's fresher, and I love the characters.

That does not mean it's more competitive.

Can we please stop bickering about whether or not Brawl IS competitive (WE'VE AGREED THAT IT IS) and instead talk about how to make it MORE competitive, and establish new strategies?

 

[boxelder]

I know more about how lag works then you'll ever know. I've been playing games online since doom.

 

[Papapaint]

Sure, you can use my own argument against me. My point was that I don't see the point in comparing this game or its competitive aspects to Melee. All it does is hinder the progression of Brawl, in my eyes. Like someone so eloquently put earlier, we were given lemons, and some are holding lemons while others are setting up lemonade stands. I just see you and all the other people who continue to bring this up as holding onto lemons.



I'm posting, because I have the right to express my opinion. I was also attempting to clear up misunderstandings that pancake had regarding my post. Explain to me what "very good points" I am ignoring, because I don't see what those points are or their relevance to the points I have made



And who are you to tell me how much I do or do not know about smash? Like I said before, you guys just need to let it go and move on. If you were really concerned with advancing the game and the community, you wouldn't continue to make this comparison and complain about all the things that YOU think are wrong with this game 2 months after release after playing Melee for 7 years (does that not sound the slightest bit silly to you?). If you think that projectile spamming is too good, then figure out a way to combat it and shut it down. Don't glamorize it and praise it as the unstoppable strat that ruined Smash Bros. because I promise you that there are plenty of people who don't have a problem with going against it. Whether it involves developing a better approach strategy, or resorting to the strat themselves and improving upon it.

We are moving on. We've been using this thread to talk about HOW BRAWL CAN EVOLVE, and WHAT WE AS PLAYERS CAN DO TO HELP IT.

But then you come in to debate with us, and it does nothing but hinder discussion. Come on, man, we've agreed with almost everything you've said, except the idea that Brawl is just as competitive.

 

[Scar]

And who are you to tell me how much I do or do not know about smash?

I read your post about Melee. You present facts that are wrong. Read that again. You present facts that are wrong.

You believed they were correct, and they weren't. You clearly don't know what you're talking about. I am someone who knows.

If you were really concerned with advancing the game and the community, you wouldn't continue to make this comparison and complain about all the things that YOU think are wrong with this game 2 months after release after playing Melee for 7 years (does that not sound the slightest bit silly to you?).

The community needs to know where it stands. Some people need to decide whether they want to continue playing Melee, to play Brawl, or to play both. This information is very important for people, myself included. I'm interested in hearing why people are going to play Brawl, because maybe I'll agree with them.

You're wasting my time.

If you think that projectile spamming is too good, then figure out a way to combat it and shut it down.

Yes, we're trying. I haven't figured a way out. Have you? You can't say that there is a way until you find one. For now, I can say that there is no way, and give you reasons for why. Which I already did. Which you ignored.

Until you make a coherent response, I will not respond to you, and I urge everyone else to largely ignore what you're saying.

@Boxelder: You have not demonstrated this knowledge of lag. You, too, have significantly hindered this discussion. I'm not responding to you any more either.

 

[Midguy]

I know a lot of people hate Sirlin. But he makes a good point. http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

If there is one tactic that breaks the game, you look for a counter strategy. If something truly breaks the game, there are better games out there. There is no reason for a novice to be able to beat a more experienced/skilled player consistently unless the game is not worth playing.

@Midguy, I am not proposing that that's what Brawl has come to, but if you're suggesting that I shouldn't care and that's the way it should be, you have no place in this conversation and are wasting our time.

That's the point I'm trying to make. I'm not saying that you shouldn't care about the change, I'm saying that this is the game we were dealt and figuring out counter strategies and adapting is the road we should take. I just think that true skill is the ability to adapt. Not sitting around talking about how this isn't like Melee.

This is a stretch of an example, but its a personal one. I used to play with Luigi in melee. Loved him. He felt so right in my hands (like my *****). But when I got Brawl, I felt like he was a completely different character. I wasn't happy about it. I tried to force it, but I just wasn't as successful with him as I previously was, so I moved on and decided to main different characters. Maybe that analogy makes sense to someone.

 

[Papapaint]

I know more about how lag works then you'll ever know. I've been playing games online since doom.

And I've been building computers and doing network techs since that time too. My first game was Spear of Destiny, and my first online game was Doom. Both of those were played on a computer I built myself when I was 9.

I was a compsci major until I got my job as a government contractor, and I'm getting all the training I need through that. And believe me, you can't lag in RL. There aren't any respawn points.

 

[XxLunar_KnightxX]

how to evolve the brawl metagame, i have no idea. i have too little time and too little skill to study and look for AT's to abuse within the game. i just play every once in a while with my friends who gasp in awe at the sight of a dodge roll or dash throw. i can say, though, that i have unlimited respect for those hardcore players who do find the AT's and make a living on winning tournaments, but i want to keep the game just that: a game. i dont want it to feel like a chore to train every day.

 

[Scar]

That's the point I'm trying to make. I'm not saying that you shouldn't care about the change, I'm saying that this is the game we were dealt and figuring out counter strategies and adapting is the road we should take. I just think that true skill is the ability to adapt. Not sitting around talking about how this isn't like Melee.

This is the point everyone is trying to make. I don't understand why you've repeatedly posted "you're missing my point" if this is your point. Everyone agrees. This post was good, please continue to contribute, try not to antagonize so much.

 

[BigRick]

I believe the opposite to be true. People are more prone to aggression early on because they want to believe it is a viable strategy.

Brawl is still a baby. We're excited about this game. I'm experimenting with four characters at the moment: Lucario, Snake, Kirby, and Falco.

Now, when I'm playing my friends (some of which were decent to amazing at Melee), we don't really camp all that much. I get excited when I play my non-camping buddies with Lucario and Snake and can actually rush them and attempt some new things.

Then Cactuar decides he wants to use Marth or Meta and simply efficiently camps the everloving crap out of me.

Kirby can be played aggressively. So can Falco, Lucario, and Snake (in descending order, IMO). Kirby can gimp offstage and do some low-percentage combos safely. However, when going against a good Melee player, you see just how stupid you are for not camping.

I digress. The point is that, while even good Melee players can play characters aggressively, I believe it is because we want to enjoy this fresh, new game. I played Samus in Melee, yet anyone who's played me will tell you I was notoriously aggressive with her. Can Samus be played aggressively in Melee? Sure! Will she beat ANY half-decent Marth or Sheik doing so? Doubtful.

Play aggressively now, and enjoy it. Then go to a tournament and lose to someone who can outcamp.

Interesting point here, and I think that it doesn't contradict my statement in any way. Like you said, every1 will at first try to use the strategy that they ''like'' the most.

However, when faced with a more effective strategy (camping) they will either have to adapt the easy way (try to camp better) or the hard way (trying to implement an offense that can beat the camper). Most will decide to take the easy route, especially in a tournament since you got limited time to adjust, therefore making players playing more often the camping game (which is what I stated in my previous post).

But yea there will be some chars that will never be able to create some good enough approaches, so if they're also bad at camping they'll sadly end up being low tier.

 

[boxelder]

If you're so informed then I don't understand why you can't see how input lag would effect a players ability to shield and reflect projectiles.

 

[Scar]

That's the point I'm trying to make. I'm not saying that you shouldn't care about the change, I'm saying that this is the game we were dealt and figuring out counter strategies and adapting is the road we should take. I just think that true skill is the ability to adapt. Not sitting around talking about how this isn't like Melee.

This is the point everyone is trying to make. I don't understand why you've repeatedly posted "you're missing my point" if this is your point. Everyone agrees. This post was good, please continue to contribute, try not to antagonize so much.

As pancake said, you may not think we're making progress, but we are.

Who has more fun- The winner or the loser?
Both.

This post is completely true. I do not like the consequences of this, though. Brawl is catering to a group of people who care more about winning than competition.

Melee kicks your *** when you first start. You lose. A lot. If you have the desire to become better, and a good attitude about the game, YOU WILL. This is the community I want to be a part of. Not the one where people are roped in because they win games without having any real skill.

@boxelder: I never claimed to be better informed, just that you haven't demonstrated a claim that you've made. Seriously, I don't know where you get off. You just said something that has no relevance or value. Please start contributing something.

 

[Papapaint]

how to evolve the brawl metagame, i have no idea. i have too little time and too little skill to study and look for AT's to abuse within the game. i just play every once in a while with my friends who gasp in awe at the sight of a dodge roll or dash throw. i can say, though, that i have unlimited respect for those hardcore players who do find the AT's and make a living on winning tournaments, but i want to keep the game just that: a game. i dont want it to feel like a chore to train every day.

Then more power to you. In all seriousness. The beauty of smash is that it can be played however you want to play it, and if you have the most fun playing it as a fun game to play from time to time, then don't ever let anyone tell you you're playing it wrong. Punch them in the kidney.

 

[Beat]

Player A has won 7 Melee tournaments.
Player B has won 0 Melee tournaments-he went to one and came in last place and gave up.

The moral of the story: Brawl is a game that anyone can win. Melee is a game that only the skilled survive.

Thank you for proving Scar's point.

 

[Papapaint]

If you're so informed then I don't understand why you can't see how input lag would effect a players ability to shield and reflect projectiles.

Quite simply, +/- 3 frames of lag (that's 1/20th of a second) does not hinder someone's ability to use a shield (especially since there is no powershielding) or a reflector (which lasts much longer than 1/20th of a second) to defend against a projectile (moving much slower than 1/20th of a second).

The strategies are equally as effective offline, but I wanted to provide some real examples. Olimar's pikmin aren't made more or less effective because of 3 frames. Most HDTVs provide 5-7 frames of lag.

 

[Midguy]

I read your post about Melee. You present facts that are wrong. Read that again. You present facts that are wrong.

You believed they were correct, and they weren't. You clearly don't know what you're talking about. I am someone who knows.



The community needs to know where it stands. Some people need to decide whether they want to continue playing Melee, to play Brawl, or to play both. This information is very important for people, myself included. I'm interested in hearing why people are going to play Brawl, because maybe I'll agree with them.

You're wasting my time.



Yes, we're trying. I haven't figured a way out. Have you? You can't say that there is a way until you find one. For now, I can say that there is no way, and give you reasons for why. Which I already did. Which you ignored.

Until you make a coherent response, I will not respond to you, and I urge everyone else to largely ignore what you're saying.

@Boxelder: You have not demonstrated this knowledge of lag. You, too, have significantly hindered this discussion. I'm not responding to you any more either.

Honestly, you're not fostering the intelligent conversation that you think you are.

What facts about Melee do you think I am wrong on. Tell me instead of just saying "you're wrong, I'm right, I know more than you and your words mean nothing."

I didn't realize that the point of this thread was to hear why people are going to play Brawl. If that was the intention of your post(s), then you need to do a better job of conveying that message. Your OP was a post comparing the competitive game in melee and brawl. My point was that you shouldn't continue to make that comparison if we're going to move on with Brawl. If you're saying that your post was to help you or others make the decision on melee/brawl, then ignore my posts as they are misplaced. My posts are made under the assumption that we ARE moving on with Brawl and attempting to make the best of it. And if you feel like I'm "wasting your time," then don't bother reading or responding.

As far as me figuring out a way to combat this epidemic, I can't say that have. I've been playing with Wolf and Zelda a lot lately and I just haven't had as much of a problem with it. But I guess you could say that I'm part what you see wrong with the game because I play a very defensive game, but then again, I always have.

You say that there's no way to stop it. I didn't ignore your statement, I just thought it was a bit premature. Defining a definative best strat that is uncounterable 1 week after US release? Come on man........

 

[XxLunar_KnightxX]

Then more power to you. In all seriousness. The beauty of smash is that it can be played however you want to play it, and if you have the most fun playing it as a fun game to play from time to time, then don't ever let anyone tell you you're playing it wrong. Punch them in the kidney.

you got it, kidney punches coming right up. this is probably more PM material than stuff to post, but your a hardcore tourney player, right?

 

[Papapaint]

Honestly, you're not fostering the intelligent conversation that you think you are.

What facts about Melee do you think I am wrong on. Tell me instead of just saying "you're wrong, I'm right, I know more than you and your words mean nothing."

I didn't realize that the point of this thread was to hear why people are going to play Brawl. If that was the intention of your post(s), then you need to do a better job of conveying that message. Your OP was a post comparing the competitive game in melee and brawl. My point was that you shouldn't continue to make that comparison if we're going to move on with Brawl. If you're saying that your post was to help you or others make the decision on melee/brawl, then ignore my posts as they are misplaced. My posts are made under the assumption that we ARE moving on with Brawl and attempting to make the best of it. And if you feel like I'm "wasting your time," then don't bother reading or responding.

As far as me figuring out a way to combat this epidemic, I can't say that have. I've been playing with Wolf and Zelda a lot lately and I just haven't had as much of a problem with it. But I guess you could say that I'm part what you see wrong with the game because I play a very defensive game, but then again, I always have.

You say that there's no way to stop it. I didn't ignore your statement, I just thought it was a bit premature. Defining a definative best strat that is uncounterable 1 week after US release? Come on man........

The point of his first post was to discuss what the differences were, and to foster discussion about how to make the transition effectively and improve on Brawl.

And we've already talked extensively about the time issue. We're basically trying to speed up the process, but we realize that only time will truly define this game, as it did with Counterstrike and Doom and Quake and Street Fighter and any other sequel. Except TF:2. That's still not as much fun as TF:1. Lawl.

 

[Midguy]

So much activity in this thread that there's like 4-5 responses between each of our posts, lol.

I'm not trying to antagonize, I just wanted to get my point across. I think that you get what my original point is/was so I'm gonna leave it at that. I just want to see us move on and deal with what we have as much as you want people to be informed on the issue.

I think somewhere between all that, too much unimported crap got thrown into the mix.

 

[Papapaint]

you got it, kidney punches coming right up. this is probably more PM material than stuff to post, but your a hardcore tourney player, right?

For a while, I was one of the top melee players in the area, hosted tournaments, etc. I stood my ground against players like Schoolie Dee, and O-NO, and thought I was pretty good.



Then Tope came to one of my school's tournaments and sauced all of us. Opened my eyes up to the game even more.

The short answer is yes, I'm a tourney player. Am I only a tourney player? No. Am I an elitist? I don't think so. "Hardcore"? I dunno... I was far more into Halo 3 than smash for a while simply because of its online.

 

[Scar]

Honestly, you're not fostering the intelligent conversation that you think you are.

idk I see intelligent conversation here broken up by your older posts (everything before this one and the last one) and boxelder. Why isn't it just that? I don't know.

What facts about Melee do you think I am wrong on. Tell me instead of just saying "you're wrong, I'm right, I know more than you and your words mean nothing."

If you read my post you would see. I am going to repost it and quote myself. This was already posted. You either didn't read it or find it irrelevant. This is in reference to your claim that players must play high tier characters to do well in Melee.

Bum plays DK and is a top professional. No one else has tried. I play CF and I do very well in tournaments. Mango came out of nowhere with Jigglypuff. Melee characters are more balanced than you think, people just haven't practiced hard enough with them. Ka-Master, anyone?

I didn't realize that the point of this thread was to hear why people are going to play Brawl. If that was the intention of your post(s), then you need to do a better job of conveying that message.

It wasn't my original intent but it's turned into that, don't you think?

Your OP was a post comparing the competitive game in melee and brawl. My point was that you shouldn't continue to make that comparison if we're going to move on with Brawl.

I find this to be very closed minded. Why can't we move on without exploring the competitive merit of the game? Why, more importantly, should everyone move on to Brawl without having full knowledge of what they're leaving behind and what they're moving on to?

Do you just buy new products becuase they're new, even though no significant change has been made? These are all things we must think about.

You say that there's no way to stop it. I didn't ignore your statement, I just thought it was a bit premature. Defining a definative best strat that is uncounterable 1 week after US release? Come on man........

Defensive styles are good, I am a rather campy player myself. And maybe it's a bit premature, but when you think about it, there's no good solution. Here were my reasons. There are more too.

Projectile spamming is too good in Brawl. Powershielding now does nothing, floatiness decreases mobility, it's too hard to get around.

Also,

I'm not trying to antagonize, I just wanted to get my point across. I think that you get what my original point is/was so I'm gonna leave it at that. I just want to see us move on and deal with what we have as much as you want people to be informed on the issue.

I think somewhere between all that, too much unimported crap got thrown into the mix.

This entire post is completely agreeable. I just think we can do both at once. Once we know what we're dealing with, we can truly move on.

The Oracle in The Matrix: Reloaded said something like "We cannot see past the choices we don't understand." I agree with her.

 

[Papapaint]

So much activity in this thread that there's like 4-5 responses between each of our posts, lol.

I'm not trying to antagonize, I just wanted to get my point across. I think that you get what my original point is/was so I'm gonna leave it at that. I just want to see us move on and deal with what we have as much as you want people to be informed on the issue.

I think somewhere between all that, too much unimported crap got thrown into the mix.

I know what you're saying, and I think you can be a huge huge boon to this discussion. You've made intelligent posts, I just think we were all on different pages through this conversation. I think we should really try to focus on how to evolve strategies; in fact, and I just now thought of this, we should set up a skype channel or something and run some WiFi battles later to try out some strategies/counter strategies.


Just a thought.

 

[XxLunar_KnightxX]

maybe im just not hardcore enough, but i see very little difference between the two. yes, melee has had seven years to be studied and disected. yes, brawl doesnt have the same potential to be as competitive. but apart from floatier characters and less abusable AT's, they seem like the same game to me, albeit better graphics and more stages.

 

[Papapaint]

maybe im just not hardcore enough, but i see very little difference between the two. yes, melee has had seven years to be studied and disected. yes, brawl doesnt have the same potential to be as competitive. but apart from floatier characters and less abusable AT's, they seem like the same game to me, albeit better graphics and more stages.

Check out this post:

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4129559&postcount=96

That should clear some of it up, at least on a competitive level.

 

[XxLunar_KnightxX]

I know what you're saying, and I think you can be a huge huge boon to this discussion. You've made intelligent posts, I just think we were all on different pages through this conversation. I think we should really try to focus on how to evolve strategies; in fact, and I just now thought of this, we should set up a skype channel or something and run some WiFi battles later to try out some strategies/counter strategies.


Just a thought.

ugh dont remind me how i dont have a wi fi adapter yet T_T but hey, soon as i get one, i'll be putting my friend code in my siggy. i need to get some training with real players, not just coms and my casual gaming friends. oh, and just as a side note, do you guys think the first smash would have been near as popular had it not been anything to do with nintendo characters?

 

[XxLunar_KnightxX]

Check out this post:

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4129559&postcount=96

That should clear some of it up, at least on a competitive level.

so basically what you mean is there are less attack options in brawl and its more about who is faster and has projectiles?

 

[Chaosblade77]

This is in response to primarily the first post, along with every single topic and person that creates and posts topics that compare Melee to Brawl. I normally don't come into these types of topics because they tend to be extremely stupid debates that don't get anywhere, but I happened to come in this one and was pleased with what I saw, thus, I will make my point here.

First of all:
FACT: By the definition staged in the first post, Melee is and forever will be more competitive than Brawl.

However, there is a side of this that I have an issue with. A lot of the "anti-Brawl" group argues that the speed is an issue, the game is too slow and that is one of the reasons Melee is better. A fast game is not necessarily a better game. That is an opinion, which doesn't make it a valid point. Not sure if anyone still says that since I don't read topics about Brawl hate anymore, but I used to see it and wanted to just get that out there.


Now, here is my straightforward opinion on Brawl vs Melee. As I said before, I'll agree Melee is more competitive, but I don't see how debating any of this is going to get anywhere. There are psychological reasons that people feel differently about all of this.

The way I see it, people saying that the game is less deep are the people who enjoyed learning to use Melee's advanced techniques, and put a lot of time and effort into practicing and perfecting their game. It's actually part of that person's personality to practice, get better, resulting in them being a great player. Because Brawl lacks in this area, they have nothing to learn, to get better at, and to use like they did in Melee. That leaves Brawl as an empty shell.

It doesn't even necessarily have to be all of the "competitive players" that feel this way. Some obviously play the game just because they enjoy it and like competition and winning. So they have to keep up with those people who train and practice to be content based on their own personality traits. The people who fall in this category are generally the "competitive players" who are open to the transition from Melee to Brawl and don't care about the loss of advanced techniques or changes to the gameplay, as long as they can win. If they feel the game is imbalanced and too luck based or random, then they too will dislike the game and prefer Melee

Then there are those who just enjoy the game, mostly casual players, who just like the game because it's newer, and it has more content. They are the ones that are mentioned in the first post of this topic that can't make a good argument to support the game, mostly because they don't have a real reason to support the game other than the fact they personally like it, while the other side has valid reasons to be discontent.

The point in all of that is to say that because Brawl doesn't have anything to really strive for, people who enjoy working hard for things in the game are going to feel that Melee is far superior. It's because what they look for in the game isn't there. It's pointless for any of the people who "just enjoy Brawl" to argue with the people who prefer Melee unless they can magically make some advanced techniques appear, or add something to the game that they can practice and work at. Brawl has nothing to work for like it's predecessor, and that is the basis for arguments for/against the game.

Sorry that some of that was a bit off topic, but it's how I see the situation. Two sides that probably won't budge because of personality traits.

 

[LouisLeGros]

Why does it matter if melee is a more "competitive" game then brawl?
This is primarily a competitive smash board. Thus on this board, whichever game fosters better competitive play is of great importance. The graphics, the number of characters, the music, the single player and all that other jazz is of no importance.

With a lack of competitive potential comes a "weaker" competitive scene and "weaker" competition. Think of something like tic-tac-toe compared to chess. Have you ever heard of competitive tic-tac-toe players?
Melee to Brawl is sort of like chess to tic-tac-toe. The difference is "competitive" potential is not as great as in the provided example, but it helps demonstrate my point.

Brawl competitions will be just as "competitive" as melee competitions were, if not more.
Possibly, but in the vernacular of this debate the traditional definition of competitive is not important.

Sure there will still be a competitive scene, but from what many highly regarded players have observered it will not compare to melee. The difference in skill levels between players is of vital importance to competition. In Brawl, just as in melee, there is a large difference between player skill levels. However, if competition in a particular game does not seem to show consistent results between players of differing skill level it really hinders the competitive scene.

As an example lets look at mario kart. There are people who are really good at mario kart and people who aren't. However, in mariokart lesser skilled players can defeat better players on a somewhat regular basis simply because of the game mechanics that try to equalize everyone.

Brawl is more like mario kart in this regard then Melee is. In fact you can go even deeper into the mario kart comparison.

Brawl is sort of like Mario Kart: Double Dash and Melee is like Mario Kart DS. In Double Dash it is alot easier for a lesser skilled player to come out on top. In DS because of snaking and some other techniques the better skilled player almost always would win.

Why does any of this matter, I just like enjoying brawl

It matters because this is a community. This is primarily a competitive community with focuses on betting our skills at the game and partaking in the intense competitiveness that has emerged from the smash franchise.
It is to the believe of a signifcant number of peple within this community that Brawl is limiting our abilities to do these things and thus harming competition.

However, since I'm primarily a lurker and have only made an account recently my post will probably be ignored.