Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[LOL_Master]

wanna touch it?

 

[Scar]

Wendell I love you but since you insist on adding nothing intelligent to any thread you've ever posted in I'm going to ask you if you could please refrain from posting in this one. It makes me look bad to always have "LOL Master" as the person who's most recently posted in here.

thumbswayup, SiaLiz is clearly not a real live n00blet, and the joke is on us. But yeah it's very entertaining and before I realized it was a fake account it was the best thing on SWF besides links to I Killed Mufasa.

 

[Lucario2k8]

say to yourself if someone had never played melee or brawl and claimed to like competition what direction would you steer them?if you think about this you will find the answer to what one is better for competition, but personally i would recommend brawl as an overall game, theres just more.

 

[thumbswayup]

Yeah, I figured that out a while back. In fact, I have a very good idea of who Sia Liz really is.

 

[LOL_Master]

Wendell I love you but since you insist on adding nothing intelligent to any thread you've ever posted in I'm going to ask you if you could please refrain from posting in this one. It makes me look bad to always have "LOL Master" as the person who's most recently posted in here.

thumbswayup, SiaLiz is clearly not a real live n00blet, and the joke is on us. But yeah it's very entertaining and before I realized it was a fake account it was the best thing on SWF besides links to I Killed Mufasa.

haaa, alright man, i'll stop, but next time i post on this thread, i'll actually say something, like furreal, oh btw, we're playing soon as im done these exams........yeahhh

 

[NES n00b]

Wendell I love you but since you insist on adding nothing intelligent to any thread you've ever posted in I'm going to ask you if you could please refrain from posting in this one. It makes me look bad to always have "LOL Master" as the person who's most recently posted in here.

thumbswayup, SiaLiz is clearly not a real live n00blet, and the joke is on us. But yeah it's very entertaining and before I realized it was a fake account it was the best thing on SWF besides links to I Killed Mufasa.

Advertising for your combo vid? Shameful. But have you heard of the GA Melee tourney. You should go. See what I did thar? If you do go, I want a color match to see who gets to use Pink Falcon exclusively for the tourney. =)

Also, I don't think of Brawl as a new game.....I think of it as a dumb down version of Melee with some tweaks and very few new mechanics.

 

[Roller]

*spotdodges.*

C WHAT I DID THAR?

Smooth Criminal

I C WHAT U DID THAR.

 

[PolMex23]

Only a scrub will say that there's no chance to become a top Melee player at this point. It's now easier than ever. Pros are dying to get new people into the game, and lots of techniques and strats have already been created. New players need only to practice tech skill and play with experienced Melee players. Do what the pros do already, and add little bits of yourself to your style.

You can't just pick up Melee like you can with Brawl, you have to work a little bit. But after the hard work, there's a much deeper competitive gaming experience waiting for you.

If you just indicated that I'm a scrub, then your quite mistaken. For the quote you commented was directed in general. I believe I was a very good melee player, using Weegee and C Falc to as much glory as I could muster. The only problem was that I did not attend any major Melee tourneys since I just now hit 18 years of age and, I can start ignoring my mothers wishes of studying for 23 hours a day. Sorry about the personal rant.

The thing about melee was that, lets say someone picks it up now. Practices hard for 4-6 months while maining....jigglypuff an captain falcon. Learns almost every strat there is for those characters. There is no way he could win major melee tournaments, for he as a melee player, couldn't haven't fully developed in such a short time. It took years for one to be considered major tournament ready, for the sheer ability of instinct an mind games developed over time. And, in the time that person becomes pro quality, in my opinion, I believe the smash community will have accepted Brawl for what it is, and everything will be just how it was.

But your completely right about Brawl being a game one could pick up an get "good" at. Melee, no chance that could happen. I think PC Chris was one of the fastest smashers to become pro, since in a interview he said for 2 years he practiced. Thats fast, compared to the 2 months or so it took brawlers to become "pro". But I do an I don't agree with Melee being a deeper game. In almost every aspect yes, but, Brawl requires you to main more than 2 characters. For even low tier characters have good match ups against top tier. I'm stating the obvious yes, but in Melee, If your jiggs was better than your opponent's fox, then you would most likely win. In Brawl, if your Wario or R.O.B. is better than your opponent's DDD, than your chances of winning are actually not even within your favor. For all it takes is for that DDD player to know how to chain grab you to the edge, know how to implement some tilts, an a few back kicks, and then presto!!!!! You lose to some fool, because of a character match up.

Thats what makes Brawl a deep game. And personally I think that the fact new faces are showing up and that such deep character match ups are present makes Brawl a interesting game. The beauty to me is that, it's new and it presents something new to conquer. As a true gamer, I accept what Nintendo threw at me, even though it didn't meet my expectations. Yes, I complained PoP came out for EQ, because I thought it would ruin the game due to it taking the one amazing aspect of that MMoRpg, traveling. But, I realized online games were a waste of my money and that melee game I got for christmas 2 years ago was amazing an I should play that. This was in 04, where god reminded me that he made a game he created himself (or atleast Michael or Gabriel or somthin xD).

It's a new challenge, an I accept that some out of no where scrubs are becoming good. But, through my own experience, If you were good at Melee, than you will be better than every new comer to Brawl. Period.

 

[PolMex23]

Oh an before I knew who you were, I stumbled over your " I killed Mufasa" vid. An I just connected it was you just now xD. Excuse me for being ignorant

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

You can't just pick up Melee like you can with Brawl, you have to work a little bit. But after the hard work, there's a much deeper competitive gaming experience waiting for you.

LOL qoute of the year if brawl was so easy then why to the top melee players own brawl? bcuz brawls about mindgames, smarts, spacing, and a fews other things.

 

[arrowhead]

But your completely right about Brawl being a game one could pick up an get "good" at. Melee, no chance that could happen. I think PC Chris was one of the fastest smashers to become pro, since in a interview he said for 2 years he practiced. Thats fast, compared to the 2 months or so it took brawlers to become "pro".

But I do an I don't agree with Melee being a deeper game. In almost every aspect yes, but, Brawl requires you to main more than 2 characters.

brawl is easy for everyone to get "good" at because it doesn't have a technical requirement. this heavily limits gameplay. you may think it has a beneficial aspect because it lets noobs become pros easier, but that's not what competitive gaming is about. if you didn't bother to learn the advanced techs in melee, you didn't deserve to get good. brawl makes this all easier and although it's not a bad thing in itself, it sacrifices deeper gameplay.

so basically brawl requires you to know the matchups, like melee does. except brawl's counterpicks are much more 1-sided. how is this a good thing?

 

[Aesir]

I don't even own the game and I'm decent...>_>

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Tech skill doesnt make up everything. How much mindgames do you see in melee, a lot. its a big thing in brawl too. Aesir u were a good melee player.

 

[Teczer0]

Tech skill doesnt make up everything. How much mindgames do you see in melee, a lot. its a big thing in brawl too. Aesir u were a good melee player.

I have no "mindgames" in brawl and I can still win somewhat....

Btw what "mindgames" would you use in this slow,floaty game?

My only mindgame is to run away from people and spam or run through people and spam.

 

[PolMex23]

brawl is easy for everyone to get "good" at because it doesn't have a technical requirement. this heavily limits gameplay. you may think it has a beneficial aspect because it lets noobs become pros easier, but that's not what competitive gaming is about. if you didn't bother to learn the advanced techs in melee, you didn't deserve to get good. brawl makes this all easier and although it's not a bad thing in itself, it sacrifices deeper gameplay.

so basically brawl requires you to know the match ups, like melee does. except brawl's counterpicks are much more 1-sided. how is this a good thing?

You know what arrowhead...i can't answer that xD. Honestly, no words are formulating in what I think I call a brain. I have seen, where, in Brawl, a heavily favored match up went the opposite way. That was afro thundas DDD versus Rxs MK, and I don't think thats a good match up, correct me if I'm wrong. But thats because heavy, Heavy, mindgames, a change in playing style, out right skill and patience, and a big shield, aided his upset.

But, you are right. Its not a good thing. My Luigi lost to an Ike recently. I soon realized that my DDD an Luigi are horrible match ups against a good Ike. Sadly, i wasn't confident pulling out Diddy or Captain, for I was unsure. In the future I will use diddy or Captain, but, I realized that, even though I made the Ike player look silly at some points, he made me look silly. Even though It shouldn't have looked the way it did, it did, for Luigi is unable to shield grab and punish an Ike attack due to his slides. And DDD is to slow to recover from a hit and gets combo'ed fairly easy when hit.

All I can say is sucks for me an whoever this has happened to, but I guess we must learn how to main a few, an get decent with a few others, to counter every other...counter. Yes, it sucks. But, nothin we can do about it =(. Im confident thought next time I meet an Ike my Diddy or...better yet, Captain, will be enough to turn the tide xD.

 

[PolMex23]

I have no "mindgames" in brawl and I can still win somewhat....

Btw what "mindgames" would you use in this slow,floaty game?

My only mindgame is to run away from people and spam or run through people and spam.

Please don't say such things for you know there are a few, sparse mind game tactics in Brawl.

I just don't wanna list them out for there are quite a few for most of the characters, an the general mind games tactics. But, compared to a Melee mind game list...in comparison it would be nothing

 

[Teczer0]

LOL I know there are some >_>.

Although I haven't thought of a trick thats very useful yet.

I'm just too used to melee I guess its the only fighting game I ever played lol.

 

[PolMex23]

If you main DDD, theres several d@mn tricks up that big penguins sleeve xD,

 

[Teczer0]

LOL...?

Such as camping and chain grabbing?

He is like a giant penguin you can't expect him to move fast >_>.

 

[Bud]

Teczero, for some reason, i am freaked out by your visuals.

 

[PolMex23]

Wow, um, Ill say one. Hes surprisingly quick for a bloated king anyways.

You know as well as everyone does how well DDD can "wall" someone with his backkicks. Well, ive seen some pretty hideous an tricky mindgames, where, someone was attempting a wall. Successful, then let the opponent go...who was a fox. As Fox jumped under DDD an started his up -B, DDD swallowed him an got an easy win since he was up.....Now that I think of it, thats not really a Mind game...just a smart decision and a bad one xD.

OK a good one I know is to be floating backwards, but towards opponent, and threaten him with the back kick. Either you find an opening and do execute a back kick. Or, you drop down, let them miss an attack, an start a merciless chain grab xD.

Edit_

Or you up tilt, cuz god knows thats nasty xD

 

[Teczer0]

Teczero, for some reason, i am freaked out by your visuals.

Uhhh..... interesting lol

Is it the because I have a dancing penguin as a sig?

Edit: PolMex23 - ... Why would you begin your up-b while D3 is above you? That doesn't make any sense lol unless they made a mistake....?

Also if a D3 approaches me while he faces backwards I would either

a) Run away

b) Run into him shield then let go of my shield because of the practically no lag shield time and like hit him.

 

[arrowhead]

it looks more like a dancing whale that half are someone who's having their nerve fibers pinched to keep them into a smiley face

 

[PolMex23]

I wont lie ill probably have a nightmare which will include a child in a penguin outfit dancing due to your...well, sig of a child in a penguin suit dancing....side to side...over, an over..an ova...an ......,.oh god. Somehtings at my door....

 

[Teczer0]

I'm sorry?

I love anime I can't help it.

 

[PolMex23]

lol, it was a joke. Cowboy Beebop, RAWEST anime ever in my opinion. BLEACH is the new beebop, Bleach is such a good one. Those my favorites.

Lol ok back on Melee Vs Brawl. Mindgames, theres a few in Brawl xD

 

[Teczer0]

Anime is amazing I stopped watching bleach after the fillers got too much for me.

Btw I actually play lucario LOL. I want to be a low tier player lol.

Its not going to happen though

 

[Cless]

The only mindgame in brawl is trying to get people to run into your attacks while you camp the hell out of them. When you have characters like ROB who can just sit back, throw things at you, do some bairs, and then dsmash out of spotdodge and shield, what kind of mind games do you need?

Oh, and more people have to watch Azumanga Daioh. Not enough people here have apparently.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Azumanga Daioh is ****ing win, Cless.

Smooth Criminal

 

[PolMex23]

But by far I haven't met a ROB i couldn't beat with DDD. Yes, campings gay, an I hate how its such a factor in Brawl. But, good players can always get around that.

 

[Cless]

I'm sure you can beat a ROB. Dedede outprioritizes and outranges ROB on the ground and you can throw things at him all day which block his gyro and laser. ROB probably gets chain thrown by Dedede too. I don't feel like checking. Hell, I can go pretty even with ROB as Ness just because Ness' fair outprioitizes ROB in the air and on the ground. You still are beating a camper by outcamping him.

 

[e105beta]

Brawl, I think, is a superior game to Melee. The two games, however, differ in play styles, but not so much that people can say "They are two different games, lay off." Melee, has less characters, more of which are clone characters, as compared to Brawl's larger character roster with only 1 true clone character. Brawl has slower play, as opposed to Melee's faster play. Melee is a game where the tiers are much more defined, creating a situation where certain characters will usually trump other characters. This, in essence, creates a more strict metagame, leading people to believe that Melee is more competitive, in that in Melee, the better player will always win. Unless the match consists trash tier vs high tier. Therein lies the problem. Brawl has a much more balanced roster, and focuses more on "How do I beat this specific character with the character I have?" This focuses more on strategy, and less on 15 hit combos you created in training mode. Now, at this point in the game, because Melee has such a developed metagame, and Brawl is still in it's infant stages, along with the combat changes that have been made, this has created the idea that there will be no "best players" in Brawl. The only true argument to support this is tripping, which really doesn't effect play that much. In fact, Brawl will probably have MORE top players, not an elite, select few. While there might be MORE top players, I don't believe that makes Brawl a less competitive game, I think it makes it a MORE competitive game, because there will be more fighters playing at the top level. Now, what Brawl lacks is the rigid tier list, the elite group of fighters, and 15 hit combos which it will never surpass Melee in. In conclusion, Melee is a more top down game in terms of competitive hierarchy, whereas Brawl is more horizontally competitive. The fact that certain characters will most often trash others is VERY apparent in Melee... it means the best people tend to only use 5 people competitively. There is definitely more strategy in brawl. In Melee, lots of the top tier characters would have such insane offensive capabilities that you didn't have to change your play style no matter who you faced, like Fox shine combo. There were minor things you changed if you fought Marth or Falco, but in the end... Fox always did the same shine combo every match. Since the "This character is better than this character" "tip" is less apparent in Brawl than in Melee, the tip in one direction doesn't conclude the match at the beginning. This kind of goes back to the ROCK PAPER SCISSORS theory of match ups. Brawl having less training mode induced combos rewarded training mode practice less, but since paper CAN beat scissors, spending hours upon hours learning the match ups is what will distinguish the top from the middle. This is what allows brawl to be competitive, and this is why I think that there will eventually be the "top players." They will be the ones who wasted their life learning how to play their characters... 35 different ways. There will still be some trianing mode induced combos, they are just less game changing now.

It might be a little confusing. Reply if I need to clarify

 

[Pink Reaper]

Brawl, I think, is a superior game to Melee. The two games, however, differ in play styles, but not so much that people can say "They are two different games, lay off." Melee, has less characters, more of which are clone characters, as compared to Brawl's larger character roster with only 1 true clone character. Brawl has slower play, as opposed to Melee's faster play. Melee is a game where the tiers are much more defined, creating a situation where certain characters will usually trump other characters. This, in essence, creates a more strict metagame, leading people to believe that Melee is more competitive, in that in Melee, the better player will always win. Unless the match consists trash tier vs high tier. Therein lies the problem. Brawl has a much more balanced roster, and focuses more on "How do I beat this specific character with the character I have?" This focuses more on strategy, and less on 15 hit combos you created in training mode. Now, at this point in the game, because Melee has such a developed metagame, and Brawl is still in it's infant stages, along with the combat changes that have been made, this has created the idea that there will be no "best players" in Brawl. The only true argument to support this is tripping, which really doesn't effect play that much. In fact, Brawl will probably have MORE top players, not an elite, select few. While there might be MORE top players, I don't believe that makes Brawl a less competitive game, I think it makes it a MORE competitive game, because there will be more fighters playing at the top level. Now, what Brawl lacks is the rigid tier list, the elite group of fighters, and 15 hit combos which it will never surpass Melee in. In conclusion, Melee is a more top down game in terms of competitive hierarchy, whereas Brawl is more horizontally competitive. The fact that certain characters will most often trash others is VERY apparent in Melee... it means the best people tend to only use 5 people competitively. There is definitely more strategy in brawl. In Melee, lots of the top tier characters would have such insane offensive capabilities that you didn't have to change your play style no matter who you faced, like Fox shine combo. There were minor things you changed if you fought Marth or Falco, but in the end... Fox always did the same shine combo every match. Since the "This character is better than this character" "tip" is less apparent in Brawl than in Melee, the tip in one direction doesn't conclude the match at the beginning. This kind of goes back to the ROCK PAPER SCISSORS theory of match ups. Brawl having less training mode induced combos rewarded training mode practice less, but since paper CAN beat scissors, spending hours upon hours learning the match ups is what will distinguish the top from the middle. This is what allows brawl to be competitive, and this is why I think that there will eventually be the "top players." They will be the ones who wasted their life learning how to play their characters... 35 different ways. There will still be some trianing mode induced combos, they are just less game changing now.

It might be a little confusing. Reply if I need to clarify

There is so much wrong in this post its staggering. But, im not gonna bother, im way too hungry to put off eating anymore >.<

 

[Smooth Criminal]

There is so much wrong in this post its staggering. But, im not gonna bother, im way too hungry to put off eating anymore >.<

Food?

DO. WANT.

Smooth Criminal

 

[that 1 guy]

Looking at all of these posts I was trying to think of ways to make brawl more competitive. One of the ways to assure the better player comes out on top is to have more matches. This has a way of eliminating a random variables chances of skewing the results. Alternatively you can have more stocks. Sadly the fact that Brawl is such a slow game limits the chances of this being a possibility since there just isn't enough time in the day to do this.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Ok let me break this down for you.

Brawl Haters:Brawl isnt as high of a tech lvl as melee and most likely never will, and its not as competitive.However its still a high lvl of competitiveness and is evolving,

People who think brawl can reach melee's status: Not happenining get ,over it. Brawls competitive but not as much as melee and might not ever reach that status. We just gotta wait and see.

P.S anyone who think Pirate ship is a counterpick should go die

 

[e105beta]

Ok let me break this down for you.

Brawl Haters:Brawl isnt as high of a tech lvl as melee and most likely never will, and its not as competitive.However its still a high lvl of competitiveness and is evolving,

People who think brawl can reach melee's status: Not happenining get ,over it. Brawls competitive but not as much as melee and might not ever reach that status. We just gotta wait and see.

P.S anyone who think Pirate ship is a counterpick should go die

Prove it. Pics or it didn't happen.

 

[Cless]

that 1 guy, we're not going to have an infinite number of matches to get rid of the random variable.

xzax, what's wrong? Can't dodge the bombs? Bow of the ship too much for you? Don't like swimming?

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

pics of wut pirate ship. u dont need pics try to play it in a tourny BOOM o **** you got blown up by a bomb. TORNADO! NO THE GRAVITYS CHANGING. im going to go camp in the water because i got the first kill.
I rest my case

Cless- The Summit is a legal stage then whats wrong, cant dodge a fish or ice spikes or gravity?

 

[DarkKnight077]

Everyone is too good in Brawl. There is no ground where people suck at. It's kind of like Mario Kart Wii, everyone and anyone can win with just camping and getting lucky.

*Yawns* I've playing too much MK64 anyways that's the problem with Brawl. Where's the metagame? I don't see it.