Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Jafar]

Sounds like you're asking for apples but really you want oranges.


Protip: majority of competitive games will always have a learning curve and expect some degree of technique. I don't think theres a fighting game a live today that doesn't require you to have fast reflexes and good hand eye coronation.

Why should a game be dumbed down because some people don't want to put that extra work into it? It's like you want the competition but don't want to work to achieve it, we have a word for that it's called being lazy.

But the thing is brawl is a new game. Its not melee. thats whats the problem with alot of you. You try and link it with melee and compare it to melee but its not.

Your allowed to have your own views and opinions but you disregard anyones opinion that goes against the grain.

Brawl has better balance, and yes it may favor defense more at this stage the game will advance where defense is not that great of a strategy.

Who says brawl was dumbed down. The games were never made to be competative fighting games they took that persona because of players like yourself and other's. Yes the game was made as a basic party fighter which is what the goal was. Brawl hits this goal much closer then melee but also has posotives because of it.

Most characters are very well balanced in brawl and you dont need to use a l cancal or wave dash to accomplish that.

That is a big feat to have the characters soo closely balanced that character A vs B will depends who is better at manning there character. It makes the game more competative. Now great players that enjoy playing an oddball character will be able to compete better with those in melee.

if mew2 played game and watch as his main for some reason that attracted to the character would he do as great as he did. Yes he would still do good as he knows smash very well but he would have a innate disadvantage by playing that character.

In brawl those odd ball characters can enjoy playing more various characters. I havent really heared that many OHH man thisguy sucks really bad when speaking of brawl characters. Its more like man I really suck at using him.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Sounds like you're asking for apples but really you want oranges.


Protip: majority of competitive games will always have a learning curve and expect some degree of technique. I don't think theres a fighting game a live today that doesn't require you to have fast reflexes and good hand eye coronation.

Why should a game be dumbed down because some people don't want to put that extra work into it? It's like you want the competition but don't want to work to achieve it, we have a word for that it's called being lazy.

Don't you mean 'hand-eye coordination?' lolol C WUT I DID THAR?

[/sarcasm]

And, is it too much to ask for a game that doesn't rely so heavily on reflexes? And, I have to say, to all the people saying that Melee wasn't just muscle memory and reflexes, in my years of playing Melee, I've never witnessed (or experienced) any competitive match where every move was consciously planned out and executed. The game just moved too fast for that; no human can think so fast as to consciously plan out every move they want to make when the game is moving that fast. That logically means that a great portion of the game was instinctual movements and muscle memory.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Don't you mean 'hand-eye coordination?' lolol C WUT I DID THAR?

[/sarcasm]

And, is it too much to ask for a game that doesn't rely so heavily on reflexes? And, I have to say, to all the people saying that Melee wasn't just muscle memory and reflexes, in my years of playing Melee, I've never witnessed (or experienced) any competitive match where every move was consciously planned out and executed. The game just moved too fast for that; no human can think so fast as to consciously plan out every move they want to make when the game is moving that fast. That logically means that a great portion of the game was instinctual movements and muscle memory.

I can actually think of multiple instances where I had enough time to think up a plan, attempt it, and have it succeed. I had a match against a Marth, I was on last stock, my opponent had two, I was off the stage recovering as Kirby. I was only off the stage, but I already knew what was going to happen and had made a plan to counter it and win. I KNEW my opponent was going to try and Dair spike me, this was my thought process: "Up low enough to force him to fall slightly off stage, ledge tech it, take the ledge, force an Up B on to stage, forward smash. From there, stand at ledge and inhale, my opponent isn't well versed against a Kirby, he'll probably fall for it." Yes, I actually thought all of this through instantly, and believe it or not, it worked. I can think of alot of others too, feel free to ask.

 

[Sinensis]

Sonic Wave,

This is exactly what I spoke of (not nearly as in depth as you have....) on CSTN (Cyber Sports Televsion Network) last night. People interested in the discussion of the differences between Melee and Brawl should take a look at this episode and watch future CSTN shows. (Show should be posted sometime soon at www.lagtv.com) Also, CSTN encourages players to call in during the live show and give their opinions. They are all about interaction with the over-all gaming community, and last night was their first show to focus on Melee and Brawl. I'm glad I can say, I stated the truth about the lack of competitiveness in Brawl versus the abundance of it in Melee on a live Internet/TV broadcast. I hope I did well in representing many "high-level" Melee players within the smash community. I didn't even try to completely destroy Brawl, as I mentioned that it is a fun party game, and ten- year-olds everywhere will spend many exciting hours playing the game.

 

[Aesir]

****ing smashboards crashed >_<;

Don't you mean 'hand-eye coordination?' lolol C WUT I DID THAR?

Lol chewman corrected you not me. o_O;

And, is it too much to ask for a game that doesn't rely so heavily on reflexes? And, I have to say, to all the people saying that Melee wasn't just muscle memory and reflexes, in my years of playing Melee, I've never witnessed (or experienced) any competitive match where every move was consciously planned out and executed. The game just moved too fast for that; no human can think so fast as to consciously plan out every move they want to make when the game is moving that fast. That logically means that a great portion of the game was instinctual movements and muscle memory.

You're thinking about conscientiously planning out your moves good players do that on a subconscious level, where experience of how to deal with whats being thrown at you. That was playing smart in melee, the term mind games comes from tricking the other player into doing an action that you expected.

thats the closest thing to planning in this game, you could be the fastest most technical player in the world but if you didn't know how to apply those techniques you were destined to fail. Melee is more focused on experience then anything else.

But the thing is brawl is a new game. Its not melee. thats whats the problem with alot of you. You try and link it with melee and compare it to melee but its not.

Your allowed to have your own views and opinions but you disregard anyones opinion that goes against the grain.

Brawl has better balance, and yes it may favor defense more at this stage the game will advance where defense is not that great of a strategy.

Who says brawl was dumbed down. The games were never made to be competative fighting games they took that persona because of players like yourself and other's. Yes the game was made as a basic party fighter which is what the goal was. Brawl hits this goal much closer then melee but also has posotives because of it.

Most characters are very well balanced in brawl and you dont need to use a l cancal or wave dash to accomplish that.

That is a big feat to have the characters soo closely balanced that character A vs B will depends who is better at manning there character. It makes the game more competative. Now great players that enjoy playing an oddball character will be able to compete better with those in melee.

if mew2 played game and watch as his main for some reason that attracted to the character would he do as great as he did. Yes he would still do good as he knows smash very well but he would have a innate disadvantage by playing that character.

In brawl those odd ball characters can enjoy playing more various characters. I havent really heared that many OHH man thisguy sucks really bad when speaking of brawl characters. Its more like man I really suck at using him.

I had a long thing written out for you until smashboards deleted it -_-

I'll sum up what I said.

Brawl isn't more balanced then melee, to think that is just silly, there are clearly better characters then others right now, it only appears balanced because the meta game isn't defined yet, give it sometime like a year you'll see a lot of those odd ball characters cycle out for really campy good ones.

I see in your post a lot of assumptions that camping will cycle out, what makes you think that it will? I'm interested in see this because as far as I can tell Camping is the dominate strategy in this game.

Protip: Melee looked a lot more balanced in it's early years too so your points are pretty bad lol.

 

[Dark Sonic]

And, is it too much to ask for a game that doesn't rely so heavily on reflexes? And, I have to say, to all the people saying that Melee wasn't just muscle memory and reflexes, in my years of playing Melee, I've never witnessed (or experienced) any competitive match where every move was consciously planned out and executed. The game just moved too fast for that; no human can think so fast as to consciously plan out every move they want to make when the game is moving that fast. That logically means that a great portion of the game was instinctual movements and muscle memory.

Then you and I have not been playing or watching the same game. Every move I make is planned out, no different than how each chess player has a general strategy that they go into the game with. Learning advance techs was no different then learning how each chess piece moves. You have to learn it to the point that you are no longer thinking of the mechanics of the technique, but instead the technique's applications. This is where a lot of people say that melee is all muscle memory, but this is actually where the deep part of melee begins. Once you've learned how each chess piece moves to the point that you can see where they can move on the board without any conscious effort, then you can make deep and effective strategies without worrying about the mechanics of it. When we talk about melee's technical depth, we're talking about what the techniques provided us with, not how difficult they were. We still don't care how difficult the techniques are, provided that they give us some strategic benifit, and at this point most of the techniques in brawl don't give us strategic benifits. It's like taking knights or bishops out of chess. Sure these pieces were a little more complicated than the others, but nobody can deny that they're very useful and give the players a lot more options to work with. That's all we really want. Is That to much to ask for?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Lol chewman corrected you not me. o_O;





You're thinking about conscientiously planning out your moves good players do that on a subconscious level, where experience of how to deal with whats being thrown at you. That was playing smart in melee, the term mind games comes from tricking the other player into doing an action that you expected.

thats the closest thing to planning in this game, you could be the fastest most technical player in the world but if you didn't know how to apply those techniques you were destined to fail. Melee is more focused on experience then anything else.




I had a long thing written out for you until smashboards deleted it -_-

I'll sum up what I said.

Brawl isn't more balanced then melee, to think that is just silly, there are clearly better characters then others right now, it only appears balanced because the meta game isn't defined yet, give it sometime like a year you'll see a lot of those odd ball characters cycle out for really campy good ones.

I see in your post a lot of assumptions that camping will cycle out, what makes you think that it will? I'm interested in see this because as far as I can tell Camping is the dominate strategy in this game.

Protip: Melee looked a lot more balanced in it's early years too so your points are pretty bad lol.

Dude, thats why your supposed to hit Ctrl+C before you hit "Submit Reply"

Also, don't bother with Jafar, he's on like, half of this threads ignore list anyways for a reason.

 

[Sinensis]

Please read post #2044

I would love to go back on the show which I mention in that post, and have someone such as yourself call in and speak about Melee/Brawl.

There is also a decent combo at the end of the video (#1 clip/ out of five ) I pulled off against one of the show hosts.......

Don't let the number of posts I have made deceive you. I have been playing Melee ever since it was released and am not a "smash noob"....

 

[pockyD]

tech skill is a prerequisite to being good at melee, not an equivalent

if you can't see past that, then you really have no authority on the subject - there are plenty of technically-capable players who really really suck, but there are few to really none technically-lacking players (say, someone who doesn't l-cancel or do anything equally or more complex) that can be considered "good"

like that dude said in his 400000x multiquote post, tech skill just gives you options, it doesn't win the game; the problem with brawl in its current state is the lack of options, not the absence of fast-finger techniques (and most melee techs are EASY if you just take down the mental block of 'omg that must be ridiculously hard to do' and just work at it for 5 mins; i have AWFUL hands/fingers, but i can waveshine just fine)

 

[Jack Kieser]

@ Aesir: ****it, and I thought I caught that. *narrows eyes* You win this round. (Oh, and about the SWF crash thing: that's why I always Ctrl-C my posts before I hit 'Post Reply'... just in case)

On a more serious note, though, doing something on an unconscious level is instinct and muscle memory, though. I keep hearing that Melee didn't rely on instinct and muscle memory, and then people say that it did... I'm so confused, and I played the game for years!

@Pink Reaper: That's impressive, but kind of off-target from what I was implying. See, you were recovering (from the sounds of it), which means you had plenty of time to think up a strategy, comparatively. I'm talking about jumping into an approach; once you make that first move, the opponent can DI and do all of this stuff that's always used as an argument for depth, which means that in one DI, theoretically, your whole combo/plan could be screwed, in which case you have to think up a new one. But Melee moves so fast that you'd have to think up a new plan in the course of one or two moves, which no human mind can conceivably do consciously.

@Sinesis: ...why only 10-year olds? See, this is what's so messed-up. All of you supposed 'high-level' players can say things like that, but when someone else says, 'Well, then let all of the whiny tourneyplayers go back to Melee', you guys get all pissed! Why do I, who love Brawl and Melee equally, have to be subjugated to the mindset of a 10-year old just because I'm putting forth the effort to love and be good at Brawl?

 

[Aesir]

@ Aesir: ****it, and I thought I caught that. *narrows eyes* You win this round. (Oh, and about the SWF crash thing: that's why I always Ctrl-C my posts before I hit 'Post Reply'... just in case)

On a more serious note, though, doing something on an unconscious level is instinct and muscle memory, though. I keep hearing that Melee didn't rely on instinct and muscle memory, and then people say that it did... I'm so confused, and I played the game for years!

I didn't say it was muscle memory, players develop instincts/habits as they progress in competition. But that doesn't mean theres no thought going on, I can think of many times I've conceived a strategy and it worked thats where stuff like mix ups come into the picture.

Techniques just gave you more options, knowing how to use those techniques was the hard part, and gaining that experience.

Melee was experience focused.

 

[Sinensis]

I have also put forth effort in Brawl; I have nearly reached lvl 9000 in Brawl because you, everyone rather, is limited by dull and shallow gameplay.

I don't care if I am called whiny for going back to Melee, because at any point in time, I will gladly play Brawl and play it just as well, if not better than my opponents.

 

[Jafar]

Lol chewman corrected you not me. o_O;


Brawl isn't more balanced then melee, to think that is just silly, there are clearly better characters then others right now, it only appears balanced because the meta game isn't defined yet, give it sometime like a year you'll see a lot of those odd ball characters cycle out for really campy good ones.

I see in your post a lot of assumptions that camping will cycle out, what makes you think that it will? I'm interested in see this because as far as I can tell Camping is the dominate strategy in this game.

Protip: Melee looked a lot more balanced in it's early years too so your points are pretty bad lol.

See that also goes toward the point that once the game is discovered more the campy will phase out. As people will adapt and move forward. Now yes the characters may phase out after a year but alot of things can happen in a year.

Im not posotive that camping will phase out but its also dependent on the person you are facing and there play style. I just think those agressive players wll find good ways to break through a camper and that will make the campers shift there play style for that occasion.

In alot of fighting games there are players that camp and spam. Sagat from street fighter is one that comes to mind where a person would just tiger all day and knee you when they came close. After a while people found ways to come inside the sagat player and it made them change their play style.

I would not expect melee players to jump onto brawl right away, it wouldnt be natural. If you have played a game and been used to it for 5-6 years jumping to a whole new game would be rather hard.

The game needs time, to move forward and for people to discover new things to help counter various play styles.

 

[Aesir]

See that also goes toward the point that once the game is discovered more the campy will phase out. As people will adapt and move forward. Now yes the characters may phase out after a year but alot of things can happen in a year.

Im not posotive that camping will phase out but its also dependent on the person you are facing and there play style. I just think those agressive players wll find good ways to break through a camper and that will make the campers shift there play style for that occasion.

In alot of fighting games there are players that camp and spam. Sagat from street fighter is one that comes to mind where a person would just tiger all day and knee you when they came close. After a while people found ways to come inside the sagat player and it made them change their play style.

I would not expect melee players to jump onto brawl right away, it wouldnt be natural. If you have played a game and been used to it for 5-6 years jumping to a whole new game would be rather hard.

The game needs time, to move forward and for people to discover new things to help counter various play styles.

Camping in other fighters isn't as bad as brawl camping I repeat, it isn't as bad...>_>

But basically you're just using blind optimism? You don't know it will you just assume things will get more defined?

 

[Dark Sonic]

@Pink Reaper: But Melee moves so fast that you'd have to think up a new plan in the course of one or two moves, which no human mind can conceivably do consciously.

Actually, yes you can. A lot of good players do think that fast, and thus aren't often caught in combos when fighting people that are not as good as them. However, it's also possible to react to this same DI that was supposed to ruin your combo, and follow with a different move (sometimes even a finisher if you caught it fast enough). Like DIing away from Marth's fair only to be foward smashed afterwards because they caught your DI. Pressing foward on the c-stick is indeed muscle memory, recognizing that they're in range to be f-smashed is indeed instinct, but chosing to f-smash them is a conscious thought. That's what I mean when I say that players always think of what they are doing. They don't think of how to do the move, but simply which move they want to do.

@Sinesis: ...why only 10-year olds? See, this is what's so messed-up. All of you supposed 'high-level' players can say things like that, but when someone else says, 'Well, then let all of the whiny tourneyplayers go back to Melee', you guys get all pissed! Why do I, who love Brawl and Melee equally, have to be subjugated to the mindset of a 10-year old just because I'm putting forth the effort to love and be good at Brawl?

I agree, that's a horrible mindset. Everybody can enjoy this game, it's just that we're worried that it won't be that long. We worry that we'll tire of brawl like we do with other games that we play casually. We worry that this will be a game that we will put on the shelf after a year or two and then only pull back out at parties or to fight the occasional challenger. We're worried because we feel that we're already out of things to practice and apply. We're worried because some of us are actually already bored.

I'm also worried that my post on the last page was ignored, because it was the last post on the page.

 

[Sinensis]

My reply is below.

 

[Pink Reaper]

@Pink Reaper: That's impressive, but kind of off-target from what I was implying. See, you were recovering (from the sounds of it), which means you had plenty of time to think up a strategy, comparatively. I'm talking about jumping into an approach; once you make that first move, the opponent can DI and do all of this stuff that's always used as an argument for depth, which means that in one DI, theoretically, your whole combo/plan could be screwed, in which case you have to think up a new one. But Melee moves so fast that you'd have to think up a new plan in the course of one or two moves, which no human mind can conceivably do consciously.

Well, your wrong about being able to make plans that quickly. Lets take Falco as an example. When I play falco I work to get a shine, usually without a plan which is bad XD However I do know what I intend to do when I DO get the shine. If its a fast faller and I get the shine and they DI hard to one side at low %'s, I waveshine, if I catch them off guard I do Shine, jump, shine, Dair/Uair. If its not a fast faller and they hard DI to one side, I shine, Bair/Nair, Laser/Reverse Laser. If they don't DI, I dair. If they tech the dair(assuming I Fast Fall, which I normally do) I follow with SHL->Grab. If they don't tech, I shine/Utilt and repeat. So essentially I have everything already planned out no matter what. Thats why alot of things CAN be left to just reflex, because alot of players already know what to do in many situations, because they took the time to test them then practice what to do when new situations arise.

The idea is that very few situations should arise that you cant take advantage of, and even if they do, you should be able to react quick enough to make them work for you. Now if you want a story about something I DIDN'T see coming and still used to my advantage, here's this. I recently picked up Ganon, just for the hell of it. I played on Pokemon Stadium(this is still Melee btw >.>) against a Captain Falcon. Now, I almost never play as Ganon, but I quickly learned that Uthrow/Dthrow could CG. Well, im standing under a platform, and I get a grab and without thinking, I just Uthrow. Well, my opponent teched on the platform, but I noticed it and realized I could use it to my advantage so I quickly Usmashed, then followed up with a reverse Uair to knock him off stage, then another for an edgeguard. So it is entirely possible to react fast enough to take advantage of unforseen events, you just might not have reached that level yet(No this isn't a stab at your skill or anything, but it really does take alot of experience to get used to having to play that fast)

On a side note, I love telling stories and I can't play Guitar Hero on anything higher than Hard Mode >.> <.<

 

[Jafar]

Camping in other fighters isn't as bad as brawl camping I repeat, it isn't as bad...>_>

But basically you're just using blind optimism? You don't know it will you just assume things will get more defined?

I dunno the sagat spam was bad. you didnt really have a double jump to rely on and when you were close you took a knee to the face because sagat had great priority.

Yes it is blind optimism. But are those that do not belive it whill phase out just blind pessimists.

In the same way others assume it wont become more defined.

I enjoy the game, i enjoy going random and playing any character i get aside from the few i hate.

 

[Sinensis]

I know the game is fun; I enjoy playing the game with friends. It is not deep, and it is not fulfilling. Cry me a river, many ten-year-olds spend many exciting hours playing Melee too. People take things way to seriously, it is obvious that Brawl is a fun game, but that is as deeply as it goes. FUN!!!!!!!!!! WOOHOOOOOO!!!!!!!

"We're worried because some of us are actually already bored."

I rest my case.

 

[pockyD]

this thread is about smashing competitively - we realize people play it for fun, but that's not what this thread is here to discuss

i can't believe this is so hard for you to understand

 

[Jafar]

I know the game is fun; I enjoy playing the game with friends. It is not deep, and it is not fulfilling. Cry me a river, many ten-year-olds spend many exciting hours playing Melee too. People take things way to seriously, it is obvious that Brawl is a fun game, but that is as deeply as it goes. FUN!!!!!!!!!! WOOHOOOOOO!!!!!!!

"We're worried because some of us are actually already bored."

I rest my case.

If your already bored then move on. Whining and *****ing will not make brawl into a new game.
Whining and *****ing will not make others change their opinion on brawl and play melee instead.

If you dont enjoy brawl dont play it no one forces you too.

If you think you saying its less deep then melee is gonna make everyone go omg lets play melee in tourneys instead your wrong.

People play the newer game and thats how it is.

If you dont like it dont play it, its not the game for you it seems. Whining and *****ing will not change anything.

I rest my case.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

I know the subject has shifted, but I'd like to quote something. I haven't agreed with everything Jack has said, I this was good.

Skler, I will gladly answer your question.

'Competition', in and of itself, is a very simple concept that refers to, ultimately, the fight. If there are two people fighting, there is competition. That definition, however, is usually to broad and all-encompassing for us to use, so we (people) make distinctions to specify what we mean by 'competition', and here is where the definition splits.

One group, the people who have played Melee for the past ~7 years (however many of which in the tournament style), have specified that, to them, you cannot have competition without a certain set of qualities. These include (but aren't limited to) speed in gameplay, technical mastery, a reduction (to 0) of luck-based elements, and, most importantly, having the better (or more skilled) player always win. This group has based this definition off of the mentality brought forth by other fighting games, as is evident in trying (and succeeding) to make Melee into a more traditional fighter (more like, for instance, a Street Fighter or Soul Caliber-esque game).

The second group, however, defines 'competition' differently. At the core, the philosophy remains the same: there must be people fighting and the better player must always win. The shift is, as you would expect, in the specifics. These people don't put such a heavy emphasis on technical skill or on the reduction-to-0 of luck. This philosophy is not built from the backs of the traditional fighting game, and is instead built based on the inherent qualities of the Smash franchise in general and Brawl in particular; as a result, this philosophy would rather bend the playing style to match the game than try to bend the game to match a certain playing style.

These two ideologies are built off of two antithetical philosophies: the first group will sacrifice elements of a game to match what they perceive to be a 'panultimate playstyle', while the second group will allow their playstyle to be dictated by the game. Neither way is more right (or wrong) than the other, but they are (and will be) always at odds with each other. They represent two differing mindsets that cannot be reconciled with each other.

(EDIT: This is regardless of depth, which is a separate topic on its own. Regarding your hypothetical on you v. Joe Blow v. M2K, as far as I know, this only happens in purist Brawl. Deactivate certain items, change the play format, and deactivate certain stages, and in my experience the outcome is MUCH closer to an accurate test of skill. This is in 1v1 as well as 2v2. The skills required to win a match in Brawl, however, are different than the skills required to win a match in Melee, however, and in this another problem arises. We can discuss that later, if you wish.)

Not really much to say. It says everything that needs to be said regarding whether Brawl or Melee is more competitive.


The problem is more what Sonic Wave said at the end of his post above me. Some of us are getting bored. I enjoy Brawl more than Melee with multple players involved. The game doesn't fit 1v1 matches well. From what I understand, it was designed that way intentionally. I will always prefer to play this game casually with my friends, but for the most part, I'm already bored with it. I can't really improve a whole lot except against certain match ups. I don't think there is anyone that can agree that technical skill in Brawl is almost completely useless compared to how it was in Melee.

I never mastered all of the technical aspects of Melee. I was in the process when my game was ruined and then I moved out of my house and didn't have access to my siblings' gamecube. Now that I have a Wii, I've been playing both games. I thoroughly enjoy learning and practicing the technical aspects of Melee. The only thing I continue to learn in Brawl are the occasional strategies.

If you're bored of Brawl, you're not alone. If you really want to compete, than deal with it and make what improvements to your playstyle that you can. If you still enjoy Melee more, then play it with friends. Brawl does not require as much practice to keep up your skill as Melee does, so you can even do both: Play Brawl somewhat casually and still compete, and play Melee competively against friends for fun. Meh.

 

[Jafar]

this thread is about smashing competitively - we realize people play it for fun, but that's not what this thread is here to discuss

i can't believe this is so hard for you to understand

Is there really a point of this discussion?

People who think its less wont change there mind, people who think diffrently wont change their mind.

Does this really have a point to discuss anymore.

Whos opinion ever really changes?

 

[pockyD]

if you aren't interested in the sharing of information and opinions, then get off a forum dedicated to precisely those actions

 

[Shaman]

Lol no ones opinion is changing any time soon, the part i don't understand is why people argued with those who said the game wasn't competitive according to scars definition it isn't.PERIOD. the argument should really be in another topic, about what the standard for defining competitive potential should be, since apparently a relatively large chunk of the community feels that the current standard is either outdated or misguided.

 

[pockyD]

in all honesty i've forgotten what all the proposed alternate definitions of 'competitive' were

can someone who believes in such alternate definitions restate them for me

 

[Jack Kieser]

Lol no ones opinion is changing any time soon, the part i don't understand is why people argued with those who said the game wasn't competitive according to scars definition it isn't.PERIOD. the argument should really be in another topic, about what the standard for defining competitive potential should be, since apparently a relatively large chunk of the community feels that the current standard is either outdated or misguided.

Well, personally speaking, I don't really think the current competitive standard is misguided... but outdated? Well, I have pretty... 'progressive' views on the world. IMO, if a certain system (military, political, w/e) has been in power, unchecked for a certain period of time, then I feel its our duty as people to institute a change simply to have a different point of view. Based off of this philosophy, I feel that the standard for defining competitive potential needs to change simply because we haven't changed our standards since the SF2 days, and a change of perspective is rarely a bad thing. Luckily, Brawl is actually a perfect opportunity for this because the fan base is so large and it is so very different from all other fighters out there now.

No one has to agree or disagree with this, I'm simply explaining why I'm so okay with change.

 

[Wiseguy]

The problem is more what Sonic Wave said at the end of his post above me. Some of us are getting bored. I enjoy Brawl more than Melee with multple players involved. The game doesn't fit 1v1 matches well. From what I understand, it was designed that way intentionally. I will always prefer to play this game casually with my friends, but for the most part, I'm already bored with it. I can't really improve a whole lot except against certain match ups. I don't think there is anyone that can agree that technical skill in Brawl is almost completely useless compared to how it was in Melee.

I can appreciate that. I also think Brawl is as it best when you have more than two players. I've been having a blast with Brawl team battles, and I've come to suspect that this will be the future of the game for many (the slower pace compliments this mode nicely, and camping is less of an issue.)

And I really do think there is room for thriving Brawl and Melee communities. If fact, when Smash 64 comes to virtual console I'd like to see tourament organizers hold tournaments for the entirety of the Smash Bros trilogy.

 

[Jafar]

if you aren't interested in the sharing of information and opinions, then get off a forum dedicated to precisely those actions

what information its all opinion.

it all goes back to people saying

melee is more competative then brawl.


Which makes no sense.

How can one thing be more competative then another. There either is competition or there is not.

There both competative games, they are just diffrent.

It like college football and the nfl
like lacross and hockey
college basketball and the nba.

The competition is the same. Even if the sport is diffrent or the same the competition is the same basis.

You play to win and thats that.

 

[talking_chicken]

I can appreciate that. I also think Brawl is as it best when you have more than two players. I've been having a blast with Brawl team battles, and I've come to suspect that this will be the future of the game for many (the slower pace compliments this mode nicely, and camping is less of an issue.)

And I really do think there is room for thriving Brawl and Melee communities. If fact, when Smash 64 comes to virtual console I'd like to see tourament organizers hold tournaments for the entirety of the Smash Bros trilogy.

Which makes me wonder (and I don't think this has been discussed yet), right now a bunch of people (but not everyone) that think that competitive 1v1 Brawl loads worse than Melee, but what about competitive 2v2? Sure, it's less deep than its Melee counterpart, but there's more depth due to two more people and you have to be careful about projectile spam because you might hit your teammate (especially on stages like Final Destination). Has 2v2 been broken along with 1v1?

Edit: In response to the second paragraph, people already have started to include 64 along with Melee and Brawl, (though BYOC didn't really pertain as much due to most people not having 64 controllers). Last Saturday I went to one such tournament, and there's another one later this month. Tournaments have plenty of room for all three games.

 

[talking_chicken]

See above post.

 

[LouisLeGros]

There is no point for smash 64 tournaments, Isai owns everyone.


There are a lot of people who don't really like the established definition and standards for competitive play. A large percentage of these people seem to have been discouraged in someway from playing Melee competitively.

Now a lot of these people want to come and change things so it better suits them.

*warning* generalizations that may not be true and certainly do not apply to everyone *warning*

They want a game where they feel like they can be amongst the best players. They want to be a Ken with a month of practice. They like randomness that gives the worse players more chances to win. They don't want to put forth the effort to play against competitive players (supporting online tournaments over in person ones). They take their game experience and try to apply it to high level play (little league player telling Alex Rodriguez how to play). They post more instead of lurk more. They have trouble understanding how other styles of play are fun for other people (this can go both ways)

*warning* end of generalizations *warning*

The problem with the rising desire for a different kind of competition is that both sides have a problem seeing it from the others viewpoint. Competitive players look for hardwork, effort, practice, dedication, reward etc... They bring up individual aspects of the game that support these things and their arguments are largely based around those beliefs.

The other side seem to go more by the gut. They love Brawl, they love playing their friends, but it seems to be the fun that spawns their desire for competitive play and not the competitive play that spawns the fun.


I think both sides sort of have a problem getting this across though.

 

[Aesir]

I'm really not in the mood to argue anymore but I think Jafar is getting confused or something.

Just a thought.


Sure you can competitive and play to win a game, but that doesn't make the game competitive I'm thinking this is where you're getting confused.

Melee has a lot of options so much that it's hard to find instances where you really can't do anything.

I mean lets face, having more options never hurts the competitive nature of the game, and no competitive nature isn't the same for everything. Some games will be more enriched with competition then others.

 

[Sinensis]

If your already bored then move on. Whining and *****ing will not make brawl into a new game.
Whining and *****ing will not make others change their opinion on brawl and play melee instead.

If you dont enjoy brawl dont play it no one forces you too.

If you think you saying its less deep then melee is gonna make everyone go omg lets play melee in tourneys instead your wrong.

People play the newer game and thats how it is.

If you dont like it dont play it, its not the game for you it seems. Whining and *****ing will not change anything.

I rest my case.

"People play the newer game and thats how it is."

Certainly, and as I've already mentioned, I play BOTH games. It just depends on the time and place. I simply was sharing my opinion, as other similarly have.

If you had read my prior post, you would have seen that I DO in fact play Brawl. To elaborate, I play it when I'm with people that won't play Melee and vice versa. I thought I made that clear by stating, "at any point in time I will play Brawl, and do just as well as my opponents.....". I'm quite good at Brawl, and have yet to lose a match when using Olimar or Pikachu (Of course....crazy little rat).

I simply stated, pockyD, that Brawl is not nearly as competitive as Melee, which is precisely the point of this thread. I also mentioned that the game, while lacking competitiveness, is fun.

I find the following statements excruciatingly ironic:

"if you aren't interested in the sharing of information and opinions, then get off a forum dedicated to precisely those actions"

"I can't believe this is so hard for you to understand."

 

[hippochinfat!!]

This thread is now about French swear words.

 

[Brookman]

I think this thread should really be closed.

I'm not sure how people can camp if you're right on top of them?

 

[Corigames]

I think this thread should really be closed.

I'm not sure how people can camp if you're right on top of them?

Hit and run. Constantly firing projectiles, waiting for them to approach, punish, run away, repeat.

It's hard to fight.

 

[LavisFiend]

My tactic usually revolves around plug canceling.

I find the best strategy to use is that. Simply unplug the controller and go ballistic.

If they gripe, tell them it was a stage distraction...or threaten to punt their cat into an electric fence.

 

[Jafar]

I'm really not in the mood to argue anymore but I think Jafar is getting confused or something.

Just a thought.


Sure you can competitive and play to win a game, but that doesn't make the game competitive I'm thinking this is where you're getting confused.

Competition is what you make it though, brawl was never designed to be competative neither was melee. The fact that it was is just because people made it that way.

The competative scene in brawl may not be what you expect and thats why people shine away from it.

Melee has a lot of options so much that it's hard to find instances where you really can't do anything.

What is the differance of options, the 2 major distinctions between melee and brawl are wavedashing and L cancal.

But in melee there are alot of other things you can do that add nice tricks. Like snakes sliding motar and things of that sort. There are still alot of options. If your fighting an opponent you have alot of options to attack.

maybe the mobility is a little hindered because of wave dashing being gone. BUt thats just a small price to pay.

SO far it seems that Brawl is more balanced and is in an infant stage. It should grow into more.

I mean lets face, having more options never hurts the competitive nature of the game, and no competitive nature isn't the same for everything. Some games will be more enriched with competition then others.

Yes but doesnt mean there is less competition then a diffrent game.

If a pro brawl player plays in competition and a Pro melee player play in a competition. They both have the same amount of competition ahead of them.

Its all about playstyle. Some people will go toward melee because they have grown accustemed to it. But alot of people will get accustomed to brawl.

 

[pockyD]

if you don't realize the depth of the options that l-canceling alone gives you, not even adding in the effect of wavedashing and effective dashdancing, then you aren't going to understand what people are telling you about melee... and there's no way to express this in words - you have to experience it firsthand