Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Emblem Lord]

Basic camping tactics **** too hard in this game.

With projectiles you can move your opponent where you want them to move and then just attack them whenever they do what you want them to.

It's truely terrible.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Basic camping tactics **** too hard in this game.

With projectiles you can move your opponent where you want them to move and then just attack them whenever they do what you want them to.

It's truely terrible.

I would just like to re-post something.

I played a Brawl match today with a friend who's in town from College. My Toon Link against his Lucario. We played on Delfino Plaza. All I did was run away, abuse my projectiles and camp my shield. For 8 minutes. The match ended with me having 34% and him having 122%. No one died.

On a side note, Emblem Lord, why do you always type in single lines that are double spaced?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Because I like doing it.

Makes me feel unique.

Also that was an extreme example you posted since you didn't try to kill your roommate.

Point is that the camping you did made him work alot harder and gave you control of the match.

 

[Pink Reaper]

It was the extreme for the sake of being extreme XD

I had told him that if we played all I would do was run away and camp and he said there was no way it was a viable strategy. I wanted to prove him wrong.

 

[SynikaL]

One of the more subtle nerfs to the game's engine ( with a huge impact ) is the lack of horizontal aerial movement. I don't think I have to expound too much on how that plays straight into the hands of campers. As someone said, characters are limited by the engine. Brawl's limiting.


-Kye

 

[LouisLeGros]

One of the more subtle nerfs to the game's engine ( with a huge impact ) is the lack of horizontal aerial movement. I don't think I have to expound too much on how that plays straight into the hands of campers. As someone said, characters are limited by the engine. Brawl's limiting.


-Kye

I know, look at sonic when he jumps. He goes from wtf fast to as fast as just about every other character when he jumps.

 

[Firebert]

This was a very deep post, Scar. I agree wholeheartedly with it, and I found it very thought-provoking.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I know, look at sonic when he jumps. He goes from wtf fast to as fast as just about every other character when he jumps.

What's interesting is, that friend of mine that I was camp***ging, picked Sonic and I was afraid it would ruin my "strategy" because I didn't realize that sonic is only fast on the ground. Tink's jumps still give him way more hight and as such way more distance between him and his opponent that even fast characters(sonic, MK) didn't really have any viable options other than to attempt to hit me on my way down(which they couldn't cus the new air dodge system loves campers)

 

[pockyD]

i find that as a general rule, you get more horizontal air movement in brawl (at least by a fair margin with luigi)

 

[SynikaL]

i find that as a general rule, you get more horizontal air movement in brawl (at least by a fair margin with luigi)

No.


-Syn

 

[jwj442]

Really? I've found that you have more aerial control. A retreating back air at a shield is more effective with DK than in Melee, I think. Kirby definitely has more horizontal movement. Squirtle and Wario have ridiculous aerial control - even more than Jigglypuff did in Melee (though Jiggly gets 5 jumps to make better use of it).

 

[Firebert]

Hey, he doesn't have 2k+ posts in such a short time for nothing...

Lol, that's true. And newbies don't like reading long posts such as that anyways...

 

[DarkKnight077]

You know I've played with Sonic just yesterday and last week with friends. The problem with the game is, there isn't enough strategy except just Spam projectiles or hope that the person your playing doesn't know how to to DI properly.

And heres the thing its too hard to Kill anyone in the game because of the floatiness, everyone drops at the same rate so far there isn't much of a difference between Link or Fox. Even with Fast Fall everyone's weight is about the same.

The problem here is, that camping is necessary in this game...

Brawl became a projectile/spam game for casual smashers.

 

[SynikaL]

Air Control is not synonymous with the element of speed regarding horizontal approaches in the air. This aspect has been scaled back across the board in Brawl. Try having an Initial Dash influence your aerials (specifically Nair) in Brawl, then try it in Melee -- the difference is profound. It's almost as if the game's physics engine powers down whenever you press the Jump button.


-Syn

 

[LOL_Master]

also having thousand posts doesn't mean anything either...i've seen some of the dumbest post by people with high posts, the thing is....noobs will always be noobs, until the very end, suckmyballs

 

[PWtCB]

Personnally, I just don't like how there are less things in Brawl that seperates a great player to a good player (or even a bad one). On the other hand, this makes an excellent party game. It makes it possible for even the less skilled to have a chance to shine and to have fun. Seriously, there is nothing fun in getting repeatedly destroyed in a matter of seconds. Sure there is alot of crazy random things but they make the game more unexpected and more fun for the casual player (like I am). This game is excellent. Except for the tripping. That is really annoying.

 

[Newskool]

First of all, I am going to say that I am extremely impressed with you, Scar. The internet needs more people like you.

And I do agree with you, and what you're saying. I'm going to offer a theory as to why this has happened. Keep in mind that this is a theory, and I may be completely wrong.

To understand why competitiveness in Brawl is lesser than in Melee, you have to look at the time periods they were released in. Melee was released in August 2001. Long before youtube or myspace came onto the scene. Back when competitive gaming was still a back alley sport. Most competitive gaming fans were competitive gaming fans themselves. It was a scene created by competitive gamers for competitive gamers. So, obviously, games that expected to be considered competitive had to be fair and even.

Now, can anyone tell me what happened 3 months later in the gaming world?

That's right: HALO.

In November of 2001, Halo was released. In between the release of Super Smash Brothers Melee and Super Smash Brothers Brawl, 3 games in the Halo series came out. It was, as we all know, ridiculously popular. Millions and millions of people were playing multiplayer. And the competitive gaming scene blew up. No longer was it a very small circle of gamers. It became a true spectator sport.

Fast forward 7 years, to 2008...

Competitive gaming is huge. Games are regularly televised, even on such networks as ESPN. Something competitive gamers never could have dreamed of 7 years ago.

So, by now, I'm sure you're all thinking: Newskool, what the HELL is your point. And here it is-

Thousands of people watch pro gaming now. Most of them are watching as a sport. As in they want to be entertained. If most random kids were watching a smash tournament, they might see Final Destination and think, "BO-RING!" Why do you think we have counterpicks? Not to make tournaments more fair. To make tournaments more exiting.

Sakurai, despite what many of you think, is no fool. He knows that Brawl will be one of the most watched competitive games out there. So he wanted to make it a show. If the better player always wins the match, pro gaming gets predictable, and boring. I am convinced that tripping was added so that in the heat of the match, when both players are at one stock and %150 damage, when one player sees an opening, he'll trip, and everyone watching in the crowd and at home will go "OHHHHH!", and it will be very exiting, however unfair.

Again, this is all a theory. I think I'm right, but it's all just a theory.

 

[Zankoku]

We had counterpicks in Melee. Stage selection is more restricted in Brawl thanks to lethal and/or random factors in so many of the stages. I fail to see your point about counterpicking. Not only that, but Final Destination being the only stage ever played on is such a frustrating stereotype to read that you really ought to just stop thinking that and note that whoever thinks FD is the only "fair" stage to play on is not good at this game.

If the better player didn't always win the match, pro gaming gets utterly random, and unless you like watching the TV for lottery numbers, boring. There are some factors every once in a while that causes a better player to lose, but for that to happen the skill gap is normally very small and it doesn't happen once on every stage.

Competitive games do not have to be completely fair and even to be competitive. They just need to be open for an at least decent variety of options, whether it be character choice or playstyle or viable choices during situations. If there's always a best way to do everything and it involves shielding and throwing projectiles, the audience will not be amused. You should probably keep that in mind.

 

[pockyD]

No.


-Syn

well you' must've been an exclusive jigglypuff player or something because i feel air control increase for almost all characters

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Jiggs players should play Wario if they loved Jiggly's aerial movement in Melee. Wario easily has the best air control in the game. Not to mention some **** good aerials.

 

[LouisLeGros]

First of all, I am going to say that I am extremely impressed with you, Scar. The internet needs more people like you.

And I do agree with you, and what you're saying. I'm going to offer a theory as to why this has happened. Keep in mind that this is a theory, and I may be completely wrong.

To understand why competitiveness in Brawl is lesser than in Melee, you have to look at the time periods they were released in. Melee was released in August 2001. Long before youtube or myspace came onto the scene. Back when competitive gaming was still a back alley sport. Most competitive gaming fans were competitive gaming fans themselves. It was a scene created by competitive gamers for competitive gamers. So, obviously, games that expected to be considered competitive had to be fair and even.

Now, can anyone tell me what happened 3 months later in the gaming world?

That's right: HALO.

In November of 2001, Halo was released. In between the release of Super Smash Brothers Melee and Super Smash Brothers Brawl, 3 games in the Halo series came out. It was, as we all know, ridiculously popular. Millions and millions of people were playing multiplayer. And the competitive gaming scene blew up. No longer was it a very small circle of gamers. It became a true spectator sport.

Fast forward 7 years, to 2008...

Competitive gaming is huge. Games are regularly televised, even on such networks as ESPN. Something competitive gamers never could have dreamed of 7 years ago.

So, by now, I'm sure you're all thinking: Newskool, what the HELL is your point. And here it is-

Thousands of people watch pro gaming now. Most of them are watching as a sport. As in they want to be entertained. If most random kids were watching a smash tournament, they might see Final Destination and think, "BO-RING!" Why do you think we have counterpicks? Not to make tournaments more fair. To make tournaments more exiting.

Sakurai, despite what many of you think, is no fool. He knows that Brawl will be one of the most watched competitive games out there. So he wanted to make it a show. If the better player always wins the match, pro gaming gets predictable, and boring. I am convinced that tripping was added so that in the heat of the match, when both players are at one stock and %150 damage, when one player sees an opening, he'll trip, and everyone watching in the crowd and at home will go "OHHHHH!", and it will be very exiting, however unfair.

Again, this is all a theory. I think I'm right, but it's all just a theory.

if you are right then Sakurai screwed it up with shielding, air dodging, hit stun and projectiles. Unless competitive play converts to using items, but then I'd like you to be able to find any pros with a fighting game version of mario party.

 

[SynikaL]

well you' must've been an exclusive jigglypuff player or something because i feel air control increase for almost all characters

Go back and read my post explaining the difference between Air Control and Aerial Forward Momentum in-and-of-itself. If you lack the ability to read, or make clear and necessary distinctions, don't respond again.


-Syn

 

[Heavyarms2050]

Horrible comparison, not to mention that SF2 and SF3 are both pretty broken. Not as broken as Marvel, and not even as broken as Smash 64, but nevertheless at least as broken, if not more broken than Melee.

There's also one egregious point of factual inaccuracy: long chain combos originated in smash 64, not Melee, and were way more elaborate and broken in Smash 64.

my point exactly, SSB was broken as well for SF2. Even though brawl is only a few weeks olds, i've been hearing how broken some of the characters are, hence it matches very well for SF3

 

[Newskool]

We had counterpicks in Melee. Stage selection is more restricted in Brawl thanks to lethal and/or random factors in so many of the stages. I fail to see your point about counterpicking. Not only that, but Final Destination being the only stage ever played on is such a frustrating stereotype to read that you really ought to just stop thinking that and note that whoever thinks FD is the only "fair" stage to play on is not good at this game.

If the better player didn't always win the match, pro gaming gets utterly random, and unless you like watching the TV for lottery numbers, boring. There are some factors every once in a while that causes a better player to lose, but for that to happen the skill gap is normally very small and it doesn't happen once on every stage.

Competitive games do not have to be completely fair and even to be competitive. They just need to be open for an at least decent variety of options, whether it be character choice or playstyle or viable choices during situations. If there's always a best way to do everything and it involves shielding and throwing projectiles, the audience will not be amused. You should probably keep that in mind.

1.Where did I EVER in my post say that I think that Final Destination was the only fair stage? I was just using it as an example, because FD is unanimous with neutral stage. And yes, counterpicking was in Melee. I never said that Competitive gaming was boring before halo. But I think you have to realize, if the tournament scene only wanted to make things fair, we would probably be using all neutral stages.

2. A sport dry of upsets IS boring. No one said that gaming was supposed to become a coin toss, but the skill gap for an upset will probably become bigger.

3. Your first sentence actually helps sum up my point.

Thank you.

 

[Zankoku]

1.Where did I EVER in my post say that I think that Final Destination was the only fair stage? I was just using it as an example, because FD is unanimous with neutral stage. And yes, counterpicking was in Melee. I never said that Competitive gaming was boring before halo. But I think you have to realize, if the tournament scene only wanted to make things fair, we would probably be using all neutral stages.

No, if the tournament scene only wanted to make things fair, we'd probably only be using Final Destination. And since we can't let character matchup make things unfair either, we'll all have to play Fox.

2. A sport dry of upsets IS boring. No one said that gaming was supposed to become a coin toss, but the skill gap for an upset will probably become bigger.

Bigger because of what? The addition of random factors, or the loss of options? The former might make things interesting, the latter will only make things less so.

3. Your first sentence actually helps sum up my point.

Your point? "To make tournaments more exciting?" Is your idea of exciting two players poking at each other with projectiles until one reaches a high % and getting knocked off-stage, then repeating the process another 2-5 times? What is this "exciting" game you're looking forward to in Brawl? I'm really not sure I understand, seeing as how you really didn't explain yourself.

 

[Newskool]

No, if the tournament scene only wanted to make things fair, we'd probably only be using Final Destination. And since we can't let character matchup make things unfair either, we'll all have to play Fox.


Bigger because of what? The addition of random factors, or the loss of options? The former might make things interesting, the latter will only make things less so.


Your point? "To make tournaments more exciting?" Is your idea of exciting two players poking at each other with projectiles until one reaches a high % and getting knocked off-stage, then repeating the process another 2-5 times? What is this "exciting" game you're looking forward to in Brawl? I'm really not sure I understand, seeing as how you really didn't explain yourself.

1. What does that have to do with anything?

2. I was talking about the randomness.

3. I certainly did not say that I was exited about this. I just told it the way I see it. Personally, I'm disgusted by this. Also, I never even got into the actual game mechanics. You're putting words in my mouth, and they're not very tasty.

 

[Zankoku]

1. What does that have to do with anything?

Put simply, at this point I'm pretty sure Melee would provide more entertainment than Brawl. There are upsets, there are amazing things that happen, and at this point, there is a lot more action actually happening onscreen.

2. I was talking about the randomness.

The random factor is greater, but it won't cause major upsets much. What's causing things to be much more even right now is a lack of variety in options, restricting the best players to have little more to work with than those at a lower level of playing skill. Basically, playing skill is not getting measured nearly as much in this game because there's much less to apply it to at the moment.

3. I certainly did not say that I was exited about this. I just told it the way I see it. Personally, I'm disgusted by this. Also, I never even got into the actual game mechanics. You're putting words in my mouth, and they're not very tasty.

You're stepping into one subject without completely addressing it. You're claiming things will be exciting in Brawl for a normal audience, but not covering what's going on in actual competitive gameplay while doing so. All I can do is try to persuade you to elaborate.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

my point exactly, SSB was broken as well for SF2. Even though brawl is only a few weeks olds, i've been hearing how broken some of the characters are, hence it matches very well for SF3

You don't get it. Your entire post was misinformed and incorrect.

 

[Fire52388]

Yayaya, I know personal anecdotes really don't mean much. However, I believe similar stories with come with the emergence of the brawl competitive scene. You can see in this very thread many "pro" players sharing similar sentiments towards competitive play with Brawl.

Yea, I can definitely agree with you on that. That's basically what I was getting at above.

 

[Fire52388]

*sorry for the double post, browser problems*

Yayaya, I know personal anecdotes really don't mean much. However, I believe similar stories with come with the emergence of the brawl competitive scene. You can see in this very thread many "pro" players sharing similar sentiments towards competitive play with Brawl.

Yea, I can definitely agree with you on that. That's basically what I was getting at in my above post.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

You don't get it. Your entire post was misinformed and incorrect.

w/e the main point i'm trying to make is that give the game some time and it'll get better

 

[Pink Reaper]

w/e the main point i'm trying to make is that give the game some time and it'll get better

This argument needs to die as it CANNOT be proven, no matter how much you want it to be true.

 

[LouisLeGros]

w/e the main point i'm trying to make is that give the game some time and it'll get better

and melee is still developing its meta game and getting better.

 

[CasshernDGZ]

I haven't essentially read all 61 pages for this thread, so I really hope I am not flamed if I am repeating similar concepts. To start off a lot of what I am noticing from various posts, is that tech skill plays a major role.

"There aren't any combos, making punishments a lot harder..."

Etc Etc Etc.

What I propose is that maybe there just isn't anymore AUTO COMBOS.

From my personal experience, if you have the ability to just predict and our think you opponent in brawl, you have the ability to rack up a lot of damage, resulting in a decent punishment. In essence, Brawl has definitely become more of a thinking game than anything else. Now I've played melee for a long time, although I was never necessarily good at the game, my friends were and a lot of the knowledge was passed onto me, so I know a decent amount about the game per se. And I for one after analyzing the kind of game melee is, and the kind of game brawl seems to be becoming, am leaning toward the pro - brawl side.

I feel as though the pace of the game is drastically changed, and a lot of the new ATs and strats seem to rely on two specific game mechanics. Grabbing, and Shielding. The grab game is so beast in brawl. I main Wario exclusively and I've been able to d grab to tech chase to dair to u tilt to u air my opponent. And the majority of that was simply because I predicted what they were going to do. So I disagree when people say that the punishment good, it just isn't an auto combo, meaning that you have to further predict your opponents di, and moves before you punish them. Will it be as flashy is melee, no way, but I that at least that means something. Hopefully my post shed some light on Brawl, although I'm not too confident on how strong they are, just my 2 cents anyway.

- Casshern

 

[307thperson]

I'll admit to not being very good at melee or brawl, at least not compared to the people I'm going to be arguing against. I'm not going to be arguing that brawl is necessarily more competitive or as competitive as melee, since right now it clearly isn't. But the reasons given here for brawl not being able to ever be as competitive as melee are sketchy.

The worst argument is the definition of competitiveness - Scar's post was very good, but I have to disagree with his definition of the competitiveness of a game. The reason I made an account was because in all the discussion no one seemed to have pointed out that this definition wasn't correct.

The definition of competitive that has received the most support is the innate property of a game allowing better players to win consistently.

Chess is arguably the most competitive game in the world, but if two players play, with one being only slightly better than the other, you can expect the better player to win 60% of the games or so, and that's it. Personally I find competitiveness very, very hard to define. I suppose it's something to do with 1) how much work has to be put into the game before you get good and 2) how much innate talent factors into it - if everyone can get as good as everyone else given the same amount of practice, it can't hope to be very competitive.

As for the shift towards camping: we haven't seen this yet in competitive play, and so I don't count this as an effective argument against brawl's competitiveness.

We aren't at top level play yet so you won't see spamming in matches yet. We're talking about after everything equilibrates. At that point, when the metagame is stabilized, the game will be a huge campfest.

This doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps you can explain how you can tell that camping is the only way to go, even though you can't win with that strategy (it's implied that you can't since even in the top games it isn't a campfest).

I agree when Cactuar says that the balance of power has shifted from a happy medium between push and pull and punishment, towards push and pull, even I can tell that. What I can't tell is why this makes the game less skillful unless, as Cactuar, Scar, and almightypancake have said, camping is the only strategy that works. If that's true then they will be right but I have yet to see convincing evidence that supports this. If approaching is as legitimate as camping, how would a more strategical and less instinctive game be less skillful or competitive? It would require slightly different skills, to be sure, but not necessarily less.

While Melee is currently more competitive it's too premature to say that it will always be so, since as far as I can tell you haven't shown that "when the metagame is stabilized, the game will be a huge campfest." Maybe some characters will have difficulty approaching, but I don't see how metaknight can be punished for his attacks even when he's hit someone, and I don't see how he can have enough trouble approaching that doing so puts him at a disadvantage.

Of course, the argument that has been made again and again is that a metagame needs time to develop, so I don't need to restate it here.

The only point I made here that I have any confidence in is the definition of competitiveness, and I realize that I'll probably have been wrong on my points that are more specific to brawl and melee, but in the posts pointed out in the op these issues didn't seem to be cleared up well enough, so maybe I'll help other people get less confused too.

 

[Twilit]

I'm just gonna jump right in this O.o

Put simply, at this point I'm pretty sure Melee would provide more entertainment than Brawl. There are upsets, there are amazing things that happen, and at this point, there is a lot more action actually happening onscreen.

I don't see how that could be true, as Brawl has added more content to the game. The minor speed difference does not make more "amazing" things happen. More action just depends on who's playing, and their style. So no game has a bigger "wow" factor atm.

The random factor is greater, but it won't cause major upsets much. What's causing things to be much more even right now is a lack of variety in options, restricting the best players to have little more to work with than those at a lower level of playing skill. Basically, playing skill is not getting measured nearly as much in this game because there's much less to apply it to at the moment.

I'm gonna guess that's based on Wave Dashing? There's still alot to do to cater to any class of player. The leets can still massacre the noobs, as it should have been.





Currently, I think Brawl is a better game than Melee. I'm not basing that on visuals or the fact that it's a sequel. It just feels more balanced, in the sense that you can't destroy someone via wave dashing/insane speed. I have a better sense of what's going on in this one, whereas 4-player battles in melee just looked like a mosh pit. I'll admit, smash balls can make a match feel lop-sided at times, but they can also add an adreneline factor to the game, along with the anticipation of wondering what's in an Assist Trophy, for example.

 

[Alukard]

I'm just gonna jump right in this O.o




I don't see how that could be true, as Brawl has added more content to the game. The minor speed difference does not make more "amazing" things happen. More action just depends on who's playing, and their style. So no game has a bigger "wow" factor atm.





I'm gonna guess that's based on Wave Dashing? There's still alot to do to cater to any class of player. The leets can still massacre the noobs, as it should have been.





Currently, I think Brawl is a better game than Melee. I'm not basing that on visuals or the fact that it's a sequel. It just feels more balanced, in the sense that you can't destroy someone via wave dashing/insane speed. I have a better sense of what's going on in this one, whereas 4-player battles in melee just looked like a mosh pit. I'll admit, smash balls can make a match feel lop-sided at times, but they can also add an adreneline factor to the game, along with the anticipation of wondering what's in an Assist Trophy, for example.

ummm why would smashballs b used in tourney play anyway ... its an item ... thats just stupid ... and if u can't train urself to keep up with wats happening obviously smash isnt' for u ... go play street fighter or sumthing ...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Wait wait...

Alukard..are you trying to say that Smash > Street Fighter?

Dude...you wanna step outside?

 

[Dial-Up]

Wait wait...

Alukard..are you trying to say that Smash > Street Fighter?

Dude...you wanna step outside?

... Smash > SF! =P.

I'm a fan of Smash because it's Smash. I don't care what's in the new game (Except tripping!), I will play Smash... simply because it's Smash. It's supposed to be fun AND competitive, that's why I played Melee, and that's why I play Brawl even though they took the "Deepness" out of the new one. Melee is the first game I have ever been so serious over, so I'm gonna play Brawl no matter what. People who are whining about Brawl that played Melee need to get a grip. They aren't true Smash fans obviously, and they should find a new game, and stop whining about it. Just leave the boards, they aren't for you anymore...

Also, the reason why I replied to you EmblemLord was just for the first line. Lol. Not the whole rant.

 

[Lixivium]

I'm not even going to say anything about tripping. Read "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut and you'll get an idea of how tripping makes me feel about Brawl.

Currently, I think Brawl is a better game than Melee. I'm not basing that on visuals or the fact that it's a sequel. It just feels more balanced, in the sense that you can't destroy someone via wave dashing/insane speed. I have a better sense of what's going on in this one, whereas 4-player battles in melee just looked like a mosh pit. I'll admit, smash balls can make a match feel lop-sided at times, but they can also add an adreneline factor to the game, along with the anticipation of wondering what's in an Assist Trophy, for example.

Anybody who praises the game for its "balance" is welcomed by me to quit Brawl, join the World RPS Society and play Rock Paper Scissors competitively. After all each move is so perfectly balanced right? No one is going to dominate with rock, paper, or scissors and that's what makes it such a great game LOLZ!