Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Radical Dreamer]

Your post is silly. Ganondorf is garbage in Brawl. There are tons of words to describe him, and "effective" certainly isn't one of them. He was effective in Melee, thanks to things like L-canceling and wavedashing. Not only is he much worse than before because of their removal, but he's fat too. His new gameplan now revolves around dying. Instead of getting utterly ***** by 4 characters, he gets utterly ***** by 34 characters.

The better player will win most of the time in Brawl. The times he loses will be when he uses Ganondorf.

 

[Nobie]

I'm not saying that Ganondorf is one of the best characters in the game. Effective does not mean "really good."

Effective means he can manage to actually do something, if only you play him correctly. Even if he does fall on the low end of tournament viability, Ganondorf still has a certain feel and style to him that does not get completely snuffed out even against better characters.

The point is that Ganondorf was good in Melee because he conformed to the standards of what made a character good in Melee. His strengths were the strengths of the engine and gameplay which emphasized speed to a great extent. Like I said in the previous post, in Melee Ganondorf is basically pretending to be a fast character.

In Brawl, Ganondorf IS slow. He's supposed to play slow. You're not supposed to find loopholes or shortcuts around that overall lag and speed drop, you're supposed to accept it, and realize that the key is he has to bring the battle to his pace, and he has the tools to do so. With Ganondorf, your goal is not to outspeed the opponent, nor even necessarily to outpower them. Ganondorf's game plan is slowing them down and halting the momentum of their offense, to play at his pace. If you just try to short hop your way to victory like in Melee, you are going to get nowhere.

I don't want to make this into any sort of Ganondorf defense, because it certainly isn't. It's an example. All this talk might still mean he's not all that good. But that isn't the point. What I am trying to say is that the depth may be more individualized, that Brawl no matter how much you argue that it's restricted or that it lacks ADVANCED TECHNIQUES has strong distinctions between characters, stronger than Melee I would argue, despite having less extreme fall speeds.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

The problem is that with the removal of L-cancel and wavedashing, Ganondorf can't be considered effective by any definition of the word. Not only will his tournament viability be low, but it'll be even lower than that of Pichu, Mewtwo and Bowser in Melee.

If character distinctions are stronger in Brawl than in Melee, it's only because Brawl removed universal tools and simplified every character. The consequence is that there is now less personal development into a character. Two players playing the same character in Brawl will look more similar than two players playing the same character in Melee. This is especially true since Brawl doesn't favor diversity of strategies the way Melee does, and requires players to conform to specific playstyles.

 

[Nobie]

The problem is that with the removal of L-cancel and wavedashing, Ganondorf can't be considered effective by any definition of the word. Not only will his tournament viability be low, but it'll be even lower than that of Pichu, Mewtwo and Bowser in Melee.

If character distinctions are stronger in Brawl than in Melee, it's only because Brawl removed universal tools and simplified every character. The consequence is that there is now less personal development into a character. Two players playing the same character in Brawl will look more similar than two players playing the same character in Melee. This is especially true since Brawl doesn't favor diversity of strategies the way Melee does, and requires players to conform to specific playstyles.

This is what people mean when they say you have to get out of the Melee mindset. L-cancel and wavedash are gone, but what effect does that really have on Brawl and Ganondorf, really?

I'll tell you an important tip to keeping aerial lag low on Ganondorf.

DON'T JUMP.

Avoid short hops, avoid constantly going into the air to follow. Avoid using his aerials to start an assault like what was common in Melee. Much like how Sheik and Fox must reserve certain KO attacks for the very last moment because diminishing returns prevents them from being spammed, the heavy landing lag on Ganondorf's aerials prevents THEM from being used constantly.

Is it a weakness of his? Certainly. But characters are SUPPOSED to have weaknesses.

 

[MajinSweet]

The problem is that with the removal of L-cancel and wavedashing, Ganondorf can't be considered effective by any definition of the word. Not only will his tournament viability be low, but it'll be even lower than that of Pichu, Mewtwo and Bowser in Melee.

I couldn't disagree with this more. We really need to stop looking at Brawl through Melee eyes. Melee was made with L-canceling, and Brawl was not. That doesn't mean that every character in Brawl is going to function like there Melee counterpart without L-canceling. Ganondorf might end up being low tier, but he still has some good things going for him in his own right. His side B and down B both have great uses and can really keep a camper/defensive player on there toes. His uair is still great, has very little lag and is quick. We really shouldn't be counting out a character and saying they are less viable than Pichu before we even really know how to use them in a competitive setting.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Without L-canceling it mostly just means Marth will still be good and Ganondorf will blow even harder than before. Seriously, quit being dumb. This is viewing it from a Brawl perspective. Because of certain changes made by Brawl Ganondorf is much, much worse than he was before. Ganondorf is easily less viable than Pichu in Melee.

 

[BigRick]

Not to shoot you down here, but the problem with Brawl isn't that is has camping, but that it revolves around it. It is not just a style of play for Brawl, but that it is the primary strategy and anyone that does not camp back is forced to put himself at extreme disadvantage, regardless of how good they eventually get at approaching through it.

To make a comparison, this is like those frame perfect Sagat players spamming that fireball upper and lower. Only two of them. Standing at opposite sides of the stage. Shooting them for the entire match.

On a competitive level, games that are super boring tend to fail as being competitive. Sure, dedicated players will still play it, but crowds don't like watching. I was at Evo World, and watching players just spam that crap was probably the most depressing thing I had ever seen in a fighting game.

Hey you, I see what you're doing there, don't you bash my favorite game!

Well I agree that O.Sagat dittos are projectile spam fests, but that is because Sagat is a one dimensional character. ST doesn't revolve around camping... many characters have offense as their most effective strategy. When you look at the top tier chars and their overall playstyles you have:

O.Sagat - zoning with projectiles
Dhalsim - zoning with looong pokes
Boxer - rushdown rushdown rushdown
Claw - pressure with fast pokes

that's 2 offensive and 2 defensive right there... There's a good chance that you know this stuff already Cactuar but I wanted to make it clear to every1 else.

Again you gotta be careful with a statement like ''this game revolves around camping'' since some matchups might not totally revolve around it. If its these matchpus that we end up playing the most often at tournament level, than it's not a camper's game anymore... that's why I think that the ''wait for the metagame to develop'' argument is viable.

 

[Cactuar]

Hey you, I see what you're doing there, don't you bash my favorite game!

Well I agree that O.Sagat dittos are projectile spam fests, but that is because Sagat is a one dimensional character. ST doesn't revolve around camping... many characters have offense as their most effective strategy. When you look at the top tier chars and their overall playstyles you have:

O.Sagat - zoning with projectiles
Dhalsim - zoning with looong pokes
Boxer - rushdown rushdown rushdown
Claw - pressure with fast pokes

that's 2 offensive and 2 defensive right there... There's a good chance that you know this stuff already Cactuar but I wanted to make it clear to every1 else.

Again you gotta be careful with a statement like ''this game revolves around camping'' since some matchups might not totally revolve around it. If its these matchpus that we end up playing the most often at tournament level, than it's not a camper's game anymore... that's why I think that the ''wait for the metagame to develop'' argument is viable.

Aha. You kinda ignored a major point of my post, in that I was only comparing Brawl to one specific matchup within SF, being an O.Sagat ditto, and that Brawl is essentially a one dimensional game. Sure, there are mixups, but the imbalance between attack options and defensive options creates a tendency for competitive player to choose what will allow them to win, regardless of fun or cheesyness.

I never claimed that SF had only one dominant strategy. I stated that Brawl revolves around camping, because I have enough experience to be able to confidently state that approaching is the weakest strategy.

I really do enjoy SF, but the players in that game have become so driven that there aren't really any low-tier players, as those strategies that you listed are ridiculous.

Btw, as far as I saw, Claw had two strats, poke game, which kinda got owned, and that jump spam move where he comes down overhead. It was pretty much unpunishable, and I think that guy won...

 

[CT Chia]

Also since I don't argue on the pro-Brawl side of things, I really don't know what pro-Melee players get hung up on and when we argue things that aren't correct. If anyone wants to contribute something they think pro-Melee players are thick-headed about please do and we'll try to figure out why they're wrong and don't realize it.

The thing that annoys me about the pro melee players is that even though they don't normally say they completely hate Melee, but they act like their opinions always need to be known. Looking back at many of the past arguments and debates of Melee and Brawl (all which have gotten us no where), it's almost always started by a pro Melee player complaining about something wrong in Brawl. We've heard all of the pro Melee player's negative points on Brawl, but we don't need to hear them over and over, and you guys can let us have our own opinions. If we're talking about Brawl, there's no need for you guys to but in and start talking about how bad Brawl is (example: this is exactly how the Melee Brawl debate in the CoT3 thread started). We don't go out of our way to talk about how Melee is bad, and we only say our ideas after a debate has started and we're forced for a rebuttal.

 

[Nobie]

While I'm not going to doubt that Brawl is a defensive game, or that it rewards defense more readily than offense, or that camping is powerful, there is something curious to me.

If we assume Brawl is a camping-intense game, and that it might devolve into projectile spamming, shouldn't the characters people are arguing for top tier be for the most those who are good at camping?

And yet, except for Olimar and Pit and possibly Dedede, the tier lists being tossed back and forth are virtually devoid of projectile characters.

The most commonly predicted top tiers are Marth and Metaknight, neither of whom possess projectiles.

What is going on?

 

[Eggm]

Yeah, but there are thosuands of people saying "Haha no wd i own you now brawl rules omfg." and when i went to dm brandons tournament D.A bashed me for sitting down and play melee and not even talking to them. Also we are trying to enlighten people who are on the fence between the two games.

Btw if we want to prove our point about it being a camp fest, we should just get spammer and bass together to play for a few hours. LOL.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Street Fighter 2 Turbo is lame no matter what character you play to be honest.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

While I'm not going to doubt that Brawl is a defensive game, or that it rewards defense more readily than offense, or that camping is powerful, there is something curious to me.

If we assume Brawl is a camping-intense game, and that it might devolve into projectile spamming, shouldn't the characters people are arguing for top tier be for the most those who are good at camping?

And yet, except for Olimar and Pit and possibly Dedede, the tier lists being tossed back and forth are virtually devoid of projectile characters.

The most commonly predicted top tiers are Marth and Metaknight, neither of whom possess projectiles.

What is going on?

Wolf, Toon Link? Other good characters include Lucas, Zelda and Falco.

 

[Bibbed]

While I'm not going to doubt that Brawl is a defensive game, or that it rewards defense more readily than offense, or that camping is powerful, there is something curious to me.

If we assume Brawl is a camping-intense game, and that it might devolve into projectile spamming, shouldn't the characters people are arguing for top tier be for the most those who are good at camping?

And yet, except for Olimar and Pit and possibly Dedede, the tier lists being tossed back and forth are virtually devoid of projectile characters.

The most commonly predicted top tiers are Marth and Metaknight, neither of whom possess projectiles.

What is going on?

Toon Link says, "Hi!". ROB too.

Edit -- Dammit.

 

[Nobie]

Observing the people who are Brawl detractors (I wouldn't say pro-Melee because the majority of people here are pro-Melee), and the reactions by Brawl supporters towards them, I'd say the main problem with a lot of the detractors is an attitude problem.

Not to say that the Brawl supporters don't have their fair share of trigger-happy trolls and flamers, but the problem seems to derive from those who put Melee on a high-up pedestal and make constant comparisons to Melee. When so many criticisms are made relative to Melee it, while not surprising, also gives the impression that these Brawl detractors seem incapable of criticizing Melee, as if it were the Perfect Game, and that anything that makes Brawl less like Melee is a Bad Thing.

Even if the points are valid, the attitude and approach to the argument tends to be irritating at best.

To give you an idea of what it often seems like, let's go back a few years to either the original Smash Bros or Smash Bros Melee. Now there's a guy who loves Smash Bros, and he has a friend who loves playing fighting games like Street Fighter whatever and Virtua Fighter and all that. And when the Smash Bros player shows his friend the game, what is his response?

"This isn't a real fighting game. It lacks life bars and true combos and the execution is too simple." etc etc.

This is what it feels like people are doing to Brawl, only not to quite such an extreme extent.

But you can see how this can annoy people and cause them to retaliate in kind, even if calling Melee a "glitchfest" is inaccurate and misleading.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

While I'm not going to doubt that Brawl is a defensive game, or that it rewards defense more readily than offense, or that camping is powerful, there is something curious to me.

If we assume Brawl is a camping-intense game, and that it might devolve into projectile spamming, shouldn't the characters people are arguing for top tier be for the most those who are good at camping?

And yet, except for Olimar and Pit and possibly Dedede, the tier lists being tossed back and forth are virtually devoid of projectile characters.

The most commonly predicted top tiers are Marth and Metaknight, neither of whom possess projectiles.

What is going on?

For one thing, camping does not necessarily mean projectile spamming, and the strategy Cactuar described with Metaknight (spamming neutral b, among other stuff) could be classified as camping as well.

And Marth is simply so powerful that his lack of a projectile doesn't seem too bad at this point in time, although I think that this will change as projectile spammers grow more efficient and effective and manage to completely shut Marth down until he manages to get close.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I have an example of what Cactuar is talking about.

A fellow member of my crew TSA, is named teh spammerer.

He is a good Brawl player and people tell me so am I. Alright on with the story.

So we are playing each other online, I'm Marth he is Metaknight.

We are closely matched. We go back and forth. But I decide to camp him at some point when we are playing. He gets rocked pretty hard when I do.

And the *****ing commences.

"EL your a ***GORT!!!!"

"Go to hell Marcel"

"DIE!!!!!"

But I told him this. What is the point of us trying to out agrro each other when we get nothing for it?

Why don't I just camp you and ****?

My character out ranges your character and is stronger then your character so it's easier for me to camp you then it is for you to camp me.

Then he said, you can combo and blah blah, and I'm like no false.

Unless it's Meta's uair crap which only works at lower percents.

He then tried to camp me with Meta's whorenado, but Marth's shieldbreaker pretty much outprioritizes everything, and stuffed his whorenado everytime.

Eventulaly he conceded that camping was a great strat, the best strat in the game, but he doesn't like to play that way.

My response,"Who cares what you like or what you feel. If money is on the line, I will camp the **** out of you"

And you can bet your *** I'll camp you with Sagat too.

 

[Scar]

lol Good **** Marcel. btw How is Spam gonna say he doesn't like to camp? I don't think he's ever approached me in Melee ever.

 

[aho43]

I didn't camp in melee, I won't in brawl . They're both awesome games.

 

[LavisFiend]

58 pages of this...

58 pages.

and there are only about a handful of posts that make any points or that debate a good point.

The rest of you are just bickering and talking to hear yourself talk. That is what bothers me. You are not even DEBATING anymore, you are GRIPING at one another, and for what? To get the last word? That is sad.

I have an honest question. Probably the only question that makes sense. The way you answer this question will pretty much speak the whole truth, so I suggest you answer it correctly.

Do you like Nintendo games? Do you have a long history with Nintendo games? Have you grown up with them? Are you a part of the history?

If you are not, then Brawl will not have as great of an effect on you than people who grew up with Nintendo games. I bring this up because I am addressing the few individuals who said they hate Brawl and that it sucks completely and that Sakurai is an idiot because the gameplay is seemingly not as deep as it was in Melee. How can you just "hate" Brawl? Don't even bother going, "I LIEK BRAWL BUT IT JUST SUCKS" because that is a hypocritical statement in itself. Now, if you said you hate the GAMEPLAY, that is a different story.

but to outright hate it? Well, you are obviously blind and have dulled senses toward the history of Nintendo and all the nostalgia it brings through all the many modes and trophies. I only have one thing to say to you. If you wanted a competitive fighter, then by all means go join the Guilty Gear/Street Fighter/Tekken Tag Tournament scene, (yes, Tekken Tag is still alive.) This is a Nintendo game. Like the games before it, it was created with simplicity in mind, and can be argued that to stray from that is a mistake in itself. Am I saying Brawl should not be competitive? Not at all, but what I am saying is that regardless of what happens regarding the evolution of Brawl gameplay, one thing won't change:

Brawl is like a Nintendo encyclopedia: and to just straight up hate it?

That is completely stupid.

 

[BigRick]

Btw, as far as I saw, Claw had two strats, poke game, which kinda got owned, and that jump spam move where he comes down overhead. It was pretty much unpunishable, and I think that guy won...

lawl I admit the wall dive is the thing the makes Vega really good... but that move is most effective after a knockdown, so you gotta be at least decent at poking lol

lol Good **** Marcel. btw How is Spam gonna say he doesn't like to camp? I don't think he's ever approached me in Melee ever.

He never came out of the closet.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also I'll tell you why Marth and Metakngiht will be top tier.

Even though they have no projectiles they have ways to get in. Plus both of them have pretty much the best approaches in the game.

Marth has counter for projectiles at close range. Meta has his specials to help him out. Plus they are both two of the fastest runners and attackers, so when they get in they can pressure effectively.

Plus Marth kills early and Meta racks up damage fast which mitigates the fact that they have no projectiles.

That said, I feel like Marth and MetaKnight will be at the bottom of the top tier, since they have to work waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay harder to win and they have to anticipate their opponents **** near perfectly.

 

[Zankoku]

The rest of you are just bickering and talking to hear yourself talk.

Well, seeing you say this is pretty comical by itself. Especially given the rest of your post.

 

[LavisFiend]

Also I'll tell you why Marth and Metakngiht will be top tier.

Even though they have no projectiles they have ways to get in. Plus both of them have pretty much the best approaches in the game.

Marth has counter for projectiles at close range. Meta has his specials to help him out. Plus they are both two of the fastest runners and attackers, so when they get in they can pressure effectively.

Plus Marth kills early and Meta racks up damage fast which mitigates the fact that they have no projectiles.

That said, I feel like Marth and MetaKnight will be at the bottom of the top tier, since they have to work waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay harder to win and they have to anticipate their opponents **** near perfectly.

I can pretty much safely say that Olimar will be top tier as well.

Longest grab range in the game, powerful air game as well as ground, he is small as pichu but heavy as mario, PLUS, he throws little colored ******* on you with a flower for a head.

The ONLY really large flaw with him is his crappy recovery.

Well, seeing you say this is pretty comical by itself. Especially given the rest of your post.

Who said anything about ME not griping?

 

[Scar]

I have an honest question. Probably the only question that makes sense. The way you answer this question will pretty much speak the whole truth, so I suggest you answer it correctly.

Do you like Nintendo games?

I don't think anyone has said they hate anything. I mean, I certainly haven't. I enjoy Brawl.

Nintendo games: I hate Mario Party, it is not fun in any way IMO. I haven't played most of the other multiplayer games, Nintendo 1p games are amazing.

Competitive Melee is opposite to Mario Party in the competitive spectrum and I think Brawl is very much in the middle. If it even somewhat played like a game that would be closer to Melee I wouldn't nearly have as much of a problem as I do.

Plus I mean wtf do you want, "For everyone to play Brawl!" We already do, we're just discussing in the meantime.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I have an honest question. Probably the only question that makes sense. The way you answer this question will pretty much speak the whole truth, so I suggest you answer it correctly.

Do you like Nintendo games? Do you have a long history with Nintendo games? Have you grown up with them? Are you a part of the history?

If you are not, then Brawl will not have as great of an effect on you than people who grew up with Nintendo games.

I have an honest answer here: no. To all questions. I have never liked Nintendo. I've only been playing Super Smash Bros. for a year, and Melee was the only thing that motivated me to buy a Wii. I like Brawl to some extent, but Melee is still just a way better game.

If anything, the fact that Melee had such a great effect on me despite having basically no history with Nintendo before it is a testament to just how great it is. I might also mention that I have never liked playing free-for-alls or with items, and that it was purely the competitive scene that hooked me.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Of course Olimar will be top.

He can actually camp.

Anyone who can camp effectively is auto-top tier.

Marth and Meta are unique in that they have no projectile game, but will be top.

Which is why I mentioned them.

 

[LavisFiend]

I don't think anyone has said they hate anything. I mean, I certainly haven't. I enjoy Brawl.

Nintendo games: I hate Mario Party, it is not fun in any way IMO. I haven't played most of the other multiplayer games, Nintendo 1p games are amazing.

Competitive Melee is opposite to Mario Party in the competitive spectrum and I think Brawl is very much in the middle. If it even somewhat played like a game that would be closer to Melee I wouldn't nearly have as much of a problem as I do.

Plus I mean wtf do you want, "For everyone to play Brawl!" We already do, we're just discussing in the meantime.

I am not about to scan 58 pages to find the posts (although they were probably in the 30-40 range) but there has been statements that did say they just hated Brawl.

I pretty much have just dismissed them as trolls, but it irks me.

Mario Party is horrible. I am also not saying you have to like every single game to ever come out in existence for Nintendo either. Just respect the history y'know?

Considering that this game is a large congregation of Nintendo history, a Nintendo fan for the most part respects that greatly. I just feel the respect has diminshed because people are upset at the future Brawl's gameplay might hold.

 

[Fire52388]

I definitely agree that for the pros Brawl can have some big drawbacks. I have never been at a pro level, but I am pretty consistently a good to above average player. The one thing I've found I like about Brawl is that at my level, and my friends' levels, we can usually compete with a vast array of characters and still have even matches. In Melee, character choice was a lot less free as far as balanced matches. There are many other things I like about Brawl but I think this is the biggest one I wanted to point out.

Now, on the other side I really hate tripping. It has cost me a game on more than one occasion and I think it can be much more devastating for faster-paced matches. I think brawl also sets up for some seriously cheap characters used by people who tend to spam certain moves. I cannot even begin to say how annoying I find this (especially certain metaknight players).

All this said, I think it will come down to giving the game time to develop. I think it's too early to say a lot of things about how competitive Brawl will be or otherwise (don't take this the wrong way--- I still think it's good to speculate about these things). I think the nice thing is that both games are equally valid---we don't necessarily have to pick one or the other because we can always play both. In the end, if it comes to the worst case scenario, competitions will stay in Melee instead of Brawl but I don't foresee this happening.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

@PwngePanda/LavisFiend/person 2 posts above me:

I think the people that say they hate Brawl are just too caught up in the bad sides of Brawl, and don't really mean it. They'll get over it soon.

 

[Bibbed]

I am not about to scan 58 pages...

Seriously dude, turn up your posts per page. 15 posts per page is liek soooo 2 months after joining.

 

[LavisFiend]

Seriously dude, turn up your posts per page. 10 posts per page is liek soooo 2 months after joining.

No wai. My computer is horrendously slow as is.

@PwngePanda/LavisFiend/person 2 posts above me:

I think the people that say they hate Brawl are just too caught up in the bad sides of Brawl, and don't really mean it. They'll get over it soon.

WHOA! XD

How did you know about my other handle?

Nsider2?

That's what I think too, but it annoys me all the same.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Caught up in Brawl hate or not, camping is much too strong in this game.

 

[LavisFiend]

Caught up in Brawl hate or not, camping is much too strong in this game.

Perhaps, but I just hate Metaknight.

He is way too pick up friendly.

It would also seem that the bulk of my friends think they are so badass with Metaknight, when he basically operates as a training wheels character. It is just too easy to get good with him, and I see him becoming one of the most spammed character choices ever simply because of his accessibility and that many people will think they are hot **** because they can "combo endlessly" with him.

Even Pit is tougher to use than him, and that is saying something because they are both pretty easy to start with.

 

[Scar]

I pretty much have just dismissed them as trolls, but it irks me.

Exactly. I mean if you're going to throw out the baby with the bathwater, i.e. condemn the intelligent posts because of trolls, then you know as well as I that you're going to hate every message board in existence.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

WHOA! XD

How did you know about my other handle?

Nsider2?

That's what I think too, but it annoys me all the same.

Way back from Oldsider.

 

[error_alt_delete]

wow, I am glad I am a casual smasher. I dont have to worry about this "melee is more competitive" crap, all I have to do is enjoy my game, which is never a problem. brawl is a new game, it is way too early to sy it isnt as competitive as melee and it still has a while to go before we can judge this. I say give it 1-3 more years before you start judgeing it, other wise, your logic is flawed as you are compareing two games that, while similar in purpose, havnt had the same time to develope skill for. in other words: brawl is a different game, figure it out before you starting talking ****. other wise, you might as well be saying that the old master will always be better than the young cricket, beofre the young cricket even finishes training and we know his true skills.

I think brawl will become more competitive than melee, and If you people cant deal with tripping, then you obviusly arnt as skilled as you think.( and I am excludeing money matches with this statement, I know that a bomb-ob explodeing next to you can cost a match and loseing money over that would be a pain)

 

[Papapaint]

Admit it. You didn't even try to read the thread.

 

[BigRick]

Admit it. You didn't even try to read the thread.

Hey, he doesn't have 2k+ posts in such a short time for nothing...

 

[LouisLeGros]

This thread has really helped out my brawl game. When they say just how broken shield grabbing and camping is, they aren't lying. In the last two days I've decided to pick up King Dedede because my gaming circle had dismissed him as one of the worse characters in brawl.

It took me a while to get his aerials, tilts and smashes down due to timing. Using the wadeldees was pretty easy. Then I started expanding on his grabbing game and I just started to dominate.

Anyone who tries to approach my King Dedede eats a ton of projectiles and always has to be on the look out for the rare powerful projectile. Once they get past that they have to get past his amazing shield grabs and then chain grabs. I don't have to worry about move degradation, my projectile spam resets it and even then Dedede has multiple kill shots that can take some degradation and still be deadly.

One of the players that I was owning is one of the best people I play with. He recently made it to the semi finals in a tournament at my school (University of Washington). I had unfortunately been at the doctors during the tournament so I can't really compare my results, but it was melee and it has been made clear that melee skill =/= brawl skill. Anyways, he is skilled Marth player. He isn't the most technical player, but in melee he was able to do very well.

So with my simple Dedede tactics I was able to just walk all over his Marth and his Ike and any character he would bring up against me. In melee I would get punished for such a simple game plan. In Brawl it just seems like most characters are too limited by the engine to really do anything about it.

Yayaya, I know personal anecdotes really don't mean much. However, I believe similar stories with come with the emergence of the brawl competitive scene. You can see in this very thread many "pro" players sharing similar sentiments towards competitive play with Brawl.

and error_alt_delete, no just no....