• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

Status
Not open for further replies.

OddCrow

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Messages
628
3DS FC
1676-3709-1310
Good points all. Truly, I applaud you.
However, there is no point in immediately dismissing a game's competitiveness after a little over a week (month for JP, w/e). I mean, if 1/2 of the threads here are saying brawl is inferior to melee, that does nothing but promote people to not try to make brawl competitive, there is no reason to have half of the threads about a game saying the predecessor is more competitive, is it true now? Probably, nay, definitely. Will it be true in 2 years? Who knows.
 

paper_crane

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
35
The effect of sliding across the ground from a wave land or a wave dash or stringing a series of attacks together to form a combo is, in and of itself, no more strategic than firing a projectile with a press of the B button. You input the command into the controller, the effect happens on screen.

One requires more technical skill to pull off, but its knowing when to use a technique for maximum effect that brings strategic thinking into the mix.

It might be frustrating for you to accept, but playing a defensive game by retreating and using your projectiles is a viable strategy. And in Brawl, winning strategies determine the winner.
The problem is the risk-reward factor. Melee's risk-reward ratio is, for the most part, fairly balanced. The attacker has a lot of options going in. If the approach fails to inflict damage, the attacker has several ways to either reset the situation or, better, maintain pressure on the defending opponent. If the attacker manages to land a hit, he can press his newly gained advantage with a combo.

But every step of the way, the defender also has options with which he can turn the enemy's approach upside-down, or, as a last resort, at least reset the situation. And if he gets stuck in a chain of attacks, he can minimize the damage by making intelligent decisions, or he can even escape and fight back. The key point is that both attacker and defender have to constantly outsmart each other, because the resources with which they can fight each other are evenly matched.

In Brawl, the scales are tipped too far in the defender's favor. The attacker is forced to place himself at a disproportionately high risk for a very small reward. There is very little that the attacker can do to approach the defender without putting himself at a disadvantage, and even if he manages to land a hit, he cannot press his advantage because the situation almost automatically resets itself. The rewards of a successful defense are similarly small, but the risks are also substantially lower. As a result, there is every incentive to camp and defend, and almost no incentive to play offensively, because aggression places you in unnecessary danger.

While a defensive strategy is not inherently bad--many competitive Melee players thrived off of more a defensive gameplan--a well-designed game should not discourage either offense or defense. Melee struck a great balance between offense and defense. But in Brawl, you are discouraged from playing aggressively, leaving you with little choice but to camp. Because of this, a huge amount of strategic variety has been lost in the transition between the two games, and depth inevitably suffers as a result.

Knowing what move to use at a given time to knock one's opponent requires strategic thinking. More so in Brawl, now that technical skill (ie: how fast your fingers can move) is less of a factor.
I don't buy this argument. It's true that Brawl's ease of execution means more players will have access to a larger percentage of options. But technical barriers aside, Melee plainly offers more options to its players. From a strategic standpoint, the choices you make in Melee are just as important, if not more important, than any of the decisions you can make in Brawl. Accessibility has nothing to do with the game's depth at the highest levels of play.
 

behemoth

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Messages
454
Location
San Marcos, Tx, USA
I'm thinking that some of you should just give it up. I didn't wan't to believe that I was arguing with a bunch of children as it embarasses the general fanbase, but that is how you are all making it seem.

You cannot tell me that Melee is more advanced or technical than Brawl, it just isn't. There are far more options, mix-ups and character specific strategies than there ever were in Melee, which is to say nothing of the vastly improved character balance.

Honestly, I'm done, I'm just done with these boards. I've both lurked and posted under other accounts over the last couple of years hoping you guys would wake up, but you guys are so queer for Melee that you'll take anything that differs from its formula as an affront to your ****ing sensibilities.

If I had to take a shot in the dark, I'd say that its because many of you invested so much into Melee that you just refuse to let it go and play Brawl as the new game that it is. Instead of figuring the game out and mastering it you b**** and moan and cry "foul."

You people make me sick. Rest easy knowing that these boards are a joke on every gaming forum out there. You want a reason why? Take a look at this thread.
Okay. So then go to your other gaming forum and leave well enough alone. Rest easy knowing you're a tool, a bigot, and wouldn't understand intelligent conversation if it slapped you in your defunct sensibilities.

Buh, bye.
 

Wiseguy

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 28, 2007
Messages
2,245
Location
Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada (Proud
P.S. Wiseguy: About the Smashball thing, I can tell you for certain that where the smashball spawns, deeeefinitely impacts who is going to get it. I can't tell you how many times I've had a smashball appear above me when I was R.O.B. and all it took was a f-air and a u-air to unleash Diffusion Beam hell.
Okay, I see your point. I suppose Scar is right as far as Smashballs in tourneys are concerned...

EDIT: Just noticed your post paper crane. Hold on a sec...
 

PanzerOceania

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
640
Location
Salem, Oregon USA
not to be inflamatory, but if you look at many other competative things in the world, games, sports, etc. what really makes someone a competative champion is the ability to improvise and overcome unexpected or random variables. (I'm not saying that this makes it funner, I'm not saying that it's wanted, in fact it is despised by most all players, and yet it does require greater versatility in the player) As much as we all want to say this is absolutely false, a greater amount of variability actually allows more outcomes, and makes it a greater challenge, it's just different.

People try to judge one game in the context of the other, you can't judge brawl based on melee, and you can't judge melee based on brawl, that is coming into the discussion with a preassumed bias.

you must look at both overall as wholistically different, and then make a decision.

personally, I find both to have parts that are greater than the other, which is frustrating.

to put it simply, neither is better, but that DOESN'T mean they are the same, it means they both are better at different things.

this isn't a "satisfying" answer for the masses, but it's my viewpoint, not trying to be a peacemaker, just telling it how i see it thus far.
 

Moon Monkey

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 20, 2006
Messages
7,897
Location
The Moon
NNID
Mr.MoonMonkey
Switch FC
SW-0550-3588-6412
How is Brawl not as competitive as Melee? As far as i know Brawl still has all-star Nintendo characters that have specific moves based on the simple button and direction commands. They did not change the formula in the way how the game is played. Super Smash bros 64 was a competitive game even though it had float physics similar to brawl. Tripping is a horrible aspect but on the flip side people can use this feature to their ability. It's all about adapting to the game people that were on Smash 64 had to adapt to Melee and not we have to adapt from Melee to Brawl. The people that fail to do that gets left behind as the rest of us move on improving on what is already there.
 

DRaGZ

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Messages
2,049
Location
San Diego, CA
In Brawl, the scales are tipped too far in the defender's favor. The attacker is forced to place himself at a disproportionately high risk for a very small reward. There is very little that the attacker can do to approach the defender without putting himself at a disadvantage, and even if he manages to land a hit, he cannot press his advantage because the situation almost automatically resets itself. The rewards of a successful defense are similarly small, but the risks are also substantially lower. As a result, there is every incentive to camp and defend, and almost no incentive to play offensively, because aggression places you in unnecessary danger.

While a defensive strategy is not inherently bad--many competitive Melee players thrived off of more a defensive gameplan--a well-designed game should not discourage either offense or defense. Melee struck a great balance between offense and defense. But in Brawl, you are discouraged from playing aggressively, leaving you with little choice but to camp. Because of this, a huge amount of strategic variety has been lost in the transition between the two games, and depth inevitably suffers as a result.
To be honest, I haven't seen camping to be particularly effective for a long time in this game. If anything, it's used to goad characters in to attack, like in Melee, but some attackers like Pit, Metaknight, Wolf, or R.O.B. can break through the turtle quite easily and force the camper to fight back.

I think a lot more of this game actually boils down to aerial battling and carefully chosen-ground tactics. Projectile-spamming and camping is only part of the ground battle, I think.

Can someone prove me wrong? (I mean this honestly and not in a jerky way) I know that Pit's arrows can be a problem if spammed, but I've seen characters that can force him to come in close regardless because they can break through.
 

Trizzy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
26
Location
Northern VA
You cannot tell me that Melee is more advanced or technical than Brawl, it just isn't.
"It just isn't" is the lamest reason I've seen so far. If you really believe that, show some examples. Back it up a little. If you're convincing you will probably change people's minds.

For the time being though, Melee is much more technical than Brawl. I can prove that with a simple scenario. Play a pro Melee player in a 4 stock match in Melee, then play the same guy in Brawl. I'm pretty sure you'll at least feel that you did better in Brawl.

Go to a local tourny with a gamecube and a copy of Melee and challenge the best guy there. Trust me, people will usually agree on who the best one there is. If you feel that you did better at Melee, I'll be very surprised.

People aren't saying that Brawl isn't competitive. It is. It's just that the gaps formed by mastery of difficult techniques in Melee are absent for the time being.
 

crazygoose

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
25
Wait a minute. I actually had to come back for this one.

How am I a bigot? That kinda just hit me outta left field and I'm interested in your reasoning.
 

DRaGZ

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Messages
2,049
Location
San Diego, CA
Wait a minute. I actually had to come back for this one.

How am I a bigot? That kinda just hit me outta left field and I'm interested in your reasoning.
Taken from Wiktionary:

bigot (plural bigots)

1. One strongly loyal to one's own social group, and irrationally intolerant or disdainful of others.


That kinda sounds like you. I mean, hell, I love Brawl a lot, more so than Melee, but that doesn't stop me from having intelligent conversation and acknowledging the other side's opinions, beliefs, and arguments.
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
8,333
Location
In the Air, Using Up b as an offensive move
I'm thinking that some of you should just give it up. I didn't wan't to believe that I was arguing with a bunch of children as it embarasses the general fanbase, but that is how you are all making it seem.
Well, most children will simply verbally attack others with blatant lies and attempt to pretend they're facts without any backing. Not many in this tread have attempted this so far as I've seen.

You cannot tell me that Melee is more advanced or technical than Brawl, it just isn't. There are far more options, mix-ups and character specific strategies than there ever were in Melee, which is to say nothing of the vastly improved character balance.
Well, the only reason there are more character specific strategies is because there are more characters. As for more options, there are about 25 pages of proof that your wrong over THERE <-------------------- you should go read them. If you don't want to, allow me to boil it down to this: With the removal of L-canceling, Wavedashin, Dash Dancing and the general shift to a camping play style, most options have been REMOVED in Brawl. And no, there is no character balance in Brawl. Characters who have no way to deal with shield campers, to say nothing of spammers like pit or toon link, will more than likely become unplayable, which wasn't even true for bottom tier in Melee.

Honestly, I'm done, I'm just done with these boards. I've both lurked and posted under other accounts over the last couple of years hoping you guys would wake up, but you guys are so queer for Melee that you'll take anything that differs from its formula as an affront to your ****ing sensibilities.
So, over the last few YEARS, this debate over Melee and Brawl has been going on and I just haven't noticed it? Lol, nice try, but lying usually works better if you don't make it so obvious.

If I had to take a shot in the dark, I'd say that its because many of you invested so much into Melee that you just refuse to let it go and play Brawl as the new game that it is. Instead of figuring the game out and mastering it you b**** and moan and cry "foul."

You people make me sick. Rest easy knowing that these boards are a joke on every gaming forum out there. You want a reason why? Take a look at this thread.
You know, most shots in the dark miss :laugh:

I'd like to take your post seriously, but it just reeks of troll. If you WERE serious, I'd have to say sorry about the brain damage you must have suffered as a child and I hope you can manage to live a normal life.

Also, have fun at gameFAQS
 

WoapGang

Mighty Soul of Woapgang
Joined
Nov 11, 2006
Messages
940
Location
G-Town, Murderland
3DS FC
3411-2904-8277
I want to know exactly WHAT is it, that makes Brawl not as competitive as melee.

Lack of AT's?

Floatiness?


Exactly what does it take to make a game competitive?
As far as i know, it only takes ONE person to spark the competitiveness in not only another person, but the community in which the competition or game is played. If there is somebody better than you at something, something that you yourself have the mental and physical capabilities to do, you would usually want to become better. So, Naturally, what do you do? You go to that person, and you ask to play them.
You lose.
But then what? Do you give up? Hell no!

In humans, there is a natural drive, a natural want, to be better than someone in something, be it sports, videogames, or a simple game of Chess.

There is always going to be that one person, who can Spark the competitive fire in another person that MAKES them want to play, that MAKES them want to fight, that MAKES them want to compete against not only that person, but EVERYONE. And what makes Brawl any different from melee in that fashion?

The Competitive scene of Melee was a GROWING process, it took 7 GOD**** YEARS....for everyone to go from Dodge-Rolling and C-Stick Smashing, to Wave Dashing and SHFFL-ing. If you people would just give the game some time......some experience.....let the next ToadBanjoConker come....IN TIME......

So, all i'm really wanting to say is....Melee is a good game....a VERY good game. But what is it about the game that made us want to play and get better? Not just the fact that the game was extremely fun....but that it was a challenge, a beautiful challenge. And it is a challenge that progressed into the Competiton scene that we can STILL see today. So for everyone that says Brawl will not be competitive....the world faceplams at your ignorance.....


-Pitis
 

Moon Monkey

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 20, 2006
Messages
7,897
Location
The Moon
NNID
Mr.MoonMonkey
Switch FC
SW-0550-3588-6412
"It just isn't" is the lamest reason I've seen so far. If you really believe that, show some examples. Back it up a little. If you're convincing you will probably change people's minds.

For the time being though, Melee is much more technical than Brawl. I can prove that with a simple scenario. Play a pro Melee player in a 4 stock match in Melee, then play the same guy in Brawl. I'm pretty sure you'll at least feel that you did better in Brawl.
.

...Then play that same guy in Smash 64 and you will find out that his tactics will change the flow of battle. Brawl has most of the technical aspects of Melee and plus more. It is a different game there for tactics will change as it did in melee. to Smash 64. If the pro was as good as he is then he would have no problem adapting to brawls physics and using them to his advantage.
 

MajinSweet

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
295
Location
New York
Many of your points about SSBM are simply untrue. You just don't know what you're talking about, and I've asked before if you were an authority on Melee and now you're just spamming false facts. Your point is that advanced techs all help top tier characters more than others. By and large, this is not true!
So your going to to try and say that Marth and Bowser get the same out of dash dancing? Or wavedashing helps Zelda as much as Fox? Its pretty arrogant to simply say "You don't have a clue what your talking about!" Then not even giving a single example like I have. You could at least give single decent examples like Luigi, some one who gets a lot more out of wavedashing than most, but still isn't all that great of a character competitively. But, instead I just get blanket responses.

The only extremely broken, game-breaking application of ATs is waveshining. Every game has their broken tactics, at least in Melee they're hard to do. Characters are all helped by universal ATs.
Well of course, but these universal techniques help certain characters more. I don't even know why you think this is so wrong, its pretty **** obvious. And if you think otherwise, how about you actually--explain it?

The quoted portion is unbelievably untrue. Good crouch canceling is INCREDIBLE in high-level play. Characters with extremely good dashdances are helped debatably more than characters with good CCing abilities, but wavedashing helps almost all characters equally.
Its not untrue when it isn't taken out of context. The person I responded to was trying to say how Bowsers good CC would some how make up for his other techniques not being as good. This is just plain wrong. Bowser is still horrible, and the other universal techniques don't help him nearly as much as other character. And your wavedashing part is very wrong, for a person that played Melee competitively, I didn't even expect you to say something like that. Your going to try and say Link gets as much out of wavedashing as Luigi or Ice Climbers?

You asked about L-cancelling and if this adds depth. Well, it adds another skill to the skill set tested in Melee. Failing this technical challenge at an inopportune time yields great punishment. Perhaps you don't see it to be an interesting skill to be tested, but I believe that it greatly challenges a player to have good hand-eye coordination and timing.
It doesn't work like that at all though, everyone thats been playing Melee competitive for a while can L-cancel and they rarely mess up. Its just a hoop for people to jump through until they can "be good" at the game. The fact that you need to press a button doesn't end up adding anything to the game.

It makes Melee a better test of skill by testing more skills simultaneously. This is a point I will attempt to make vs Wiseguy.
But you have neglected to mention how Brawl's methods of getting around lag would require much more from the player. Its character dependent, and requires you to actually know your attack duration and each lag times. And on certain stages with different height of platforms, you can take advantage.

Brawl does not simply test a different skill set. Rather, it tests a much SMALLER skill set.
Yes it does, a much larger one than Melee could ever get to in this one instance. L-canceling in the long wrong is simply a hoop players need to jump through until they can play the game competitively. It doesn't end up adding anything to the game in the way its implemented. Its not even hard to do, most players that don't/can't do it just never knew it existed. Others just don't feel like giving it time.
 

DRaGZ

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Messages
2,049
Location
San Diego, CA
I don't think people are saying that Brawl won't be competitive. But, as of now, the range of competitiveness seems to be smaller than in Melee.

At the same time, though, I think Brawl will be much more about the defense and well timed attacks rather than inescapable combos and technical approaches, a la the transition from Alpha to SF3.
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
8,333
Location
In the Air, Using Up b as an offensive move
I want to know exactly WHAT is it, that makes Brawl not as competitive as melee.

Lack of AT's?

Floatiness?


Exactly what does it take to make a game competitive?
As far as i know, it only takes ONE person to spark the competitiveness in not only another person, but the community in which the competition or game is played. If there is somebody better than you at something, something that you yourself have the mental and physical capabilities to do, you would usually want to become better. So, Naturally, what do you do? You go to that person, and you ask to play them.
You lose.
But then what? Do you give up? Hell no!

In humans, there is a natural drive, a natural want, to be better than someone in something, be it sports, videogames, or a simple game of Chess.

There is always going to be that one person, who can Spark the competitive fire in another person that MAKES them want to play, that MAKES them want to fight, that MAKES them want to compete against not only that person, but EVERYONE. And what makes Brawl any different from melee in that fashion?

The Competitive scene of Melee was a GROWING process, it took 7 GOD**** YEARS....for everyone to go from Dodge-Rolling and C-Stick Smashing, to Wave Dashing and SHFFL-ing. If you people would just give the game some time......some experience.....let the next ToadBanjoConker come....IN TIME......

So, all i'm really wanting to say is....Melee is a good game....a VERY good game. But what is it about the game that made us want to play and get better? Not just the fact that the game was extremely fun....but that it was a challenge, a beautiful challenge. And it is a challenge that progressed into the Competiton scene that we can STILL see today. So for everyone that says Brawl will not be competitive....the world faceplams at your ignorance.....


-Pitis
Seriously, this thread is 30 pages long, do you honestly believe your very basic, very generic post hasn't been posted and refuted 50 times? Honestly? Seriously, there are links on the FIRST PAGE in the FIRST POST that go over everything you just posted. I...I can't believe Im about to do this but.................


 

LOL_Master

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
1,378
Location
New Jersey
Yes it does, a much larger one than Melee could ever get to in this one instance. L-canceling in the long wrong is simply a hoop players need to jump through until they can play the game competitively. It doesn't end up adding anything to the game in the way its implemented. Its not even hard to do, most players that don't/can't do it just never knew it existed. Others just don't feel like giving it time.[/QUOTE]

STFU, you are a total noob. stop tossing people's salad, you salad tossin man!!!!:laugh:

ps, i love noobs
 

Earthstrike

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
16
Scar, as you may remember yesterday I made a post which you said you'd read through and post about today because you were tired and going to bed. Normally, I wouldn't bug people about reading posts that were made pages back but you said yourself that it looked terribly interesting and it seems to me you just got slightly sidetracked by a different argument. Here's the post if you're still interested in replying.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4137749&postcount=365
 

MajinSweet

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
295
Location
New York
STFU, you are a total noob. stop tossing people's salad, you salad tossin man!!!!:laugh:

ps, i love noobs
Nice argument, the usage of stfu and noob really prove what you know about smash. Care to explain how L-canceling makes Melee better than Brawl?
 

NekoBoy085

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
98
Okay...you guys argue about this debate, I'll just keep playing :3

Since you felt it necessary to post one of these threads for the thousandth time, I found it necessary to share my thoughts on it :3

I wonder how long before these threads finally stop <,<
 

behemoth

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Messages
454
Location
San Marcos, Tx, USA
@ crazy goose: I called you a bigot because of the phrase "you guys are so queer over melee"... I mean, really? wow.

@ LOL master: your posts are about as intelligent as a shovel. a stupid shovel.

You responded to a thought-out paragraph with an astounding "STFU n00b!".

That carries about as much refutational value as "nuh-uh". There are people in this thread on both sides of the argument who are posting and responding intelligently, and that is why this thread has actually (kinda) gotten somewhere.

Please follow suit.
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
8,333
Location
In the Air, Using Up b as an offensive move
Nice argument, the usage of stfu and noob really prove what you know about smash. Care to explain how L-canceling makes Melee better than Brawl?
It has been explained, multiple times and you know it(you were there, I saw you -.-)

L-canceling allowed for greater range of play as it allowed you to approach a shielding opponent, and it allowed alot of moves that would normally be unusable to be usable(Gannon's Fair, Dair, Nair. Doc/Mario's Fair, Marth's Dair, Kirby's Dair etc, etc) By allowing those attacks to actually be usable, it allowed each characters metagame to expand. In Brawl, there are attacks that will become UNUSABLE because of their monstrous lag(once again, gannon takes a huge hit, as does bowser, and even CF) thus decreasing the overall usefulness of certain characters. And you can't use the "Just auto-cancel it" argument as its not really a viable option. You CAN auto cancel Gannon's Dair, but only if you full jump it and use it RIGHT away, so it only comes out at the peak of his jump. This is VERY situational as to when it will work, and other attacks, like gannons Uair or most of Ike's anything cant be auto-canceled.
 

DRaGZ

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Messages
2,049
Location
San Diego, CA
Nice argument, the usage of stfu and noob really prove what you know about smash. Care to explain how L-canceling makes Melee better than Brawl?
Just one thing I'd like to point out:

The removal of l-cancelling, theoretically, should not affect anything if, theoretically, everyone in Melee did it anyway (which they didn't).

However, practically, it makes a huge difference because of the physical limits of human timing.

I don't presume to know the exact landing lag frames of characters, but let's presume that there is a character whose d-air has 16 frames of lag and a character whose d-air has 30 frames of lag. That's a difference of 14 frames, and in high level play that's a LOT. Now, l-cancel that, which, if I understand correctly, halves the frames. So now the first d-air has 8 frames of lag and the second d-air has 15 frames of lag. That only 7 frames of lag separating them now, and that can make the difference for the second player to recovery more quickly. To put it quite simply, once something reaches a certain speed, physical muscle response can actually be too slow to keep up. Thus, making lag very short makes this much more reliant on proper response after a laggy attack rather than punishing others for being laggy.

If you remove l-cancelling, the 16 vcersus 30 frames remains, and it's enough for the 16 frames to punish the 30 frames.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
6,066
Location
Sunnyvale, CA
So your going to to try and say that Marth and Bowser get the same out of dash dancing? Or wavedashing helps Zelda as much as Fox? Its pretty arrogant to simply say "You don't have a clue what your talking about!" Then not even giving a single example like I have. You could at least give single decent examples like Luigi, some one who gets a lot more out of wavedashing than most, but still isn't all that great of a character competitively. But, instead I just get blanket responses.
Don't take it personally that I'm not listing examples for you. All of my posts take about 20 minutes to read things and respond to them. I don't have time to just sit and explain every detail of my argument to every person.

But from your posts, it's clear that you are not an authority on Melee. I trust that you are a smart person and know as much as anyone else about Brawl, but you have listed simple things about Melee that are not true. I know it seems arrogant, but in a society where skill and knowledge differentiate echelons, I can safely assume that I know much more than you about SSBM and that you're taking what you do know and using it to form opinions.

The only problem is that you don't know enough to make the points you're trying to make.
 

Kami-V

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 5, 2006
Messages
374
Location
Lake Oswego, OR
It didn't work because the logic is inheirently flawed.

Let's all compare a game we've been playing for 7 years to a game we've been playing for less than 7 weeks! Common, guys, it's fun!
You obviously have not read the rest of the thread if you're making a statement like that, ESPECIALLY the original post.
 

Syde7

The Sultan of Smut
Joined
Dec 7, 2004
Messages
1,923
Location
Winston-Salem, NC
NNID
syde_7
Your definition of competition vs competitive rings only partially true. It looks as if you're taking a 'symbolic interactionist' approach to defining the two terms. For those not familiar with sociology, it is essentially saying that symbols (and words are just symbols) have no inherent meaning- that these meanings are assigned through social interactions and interpreted individually. That being said, what 'competitive' and 'competition' mean, are what they mean to *you*, as in how *you* interpreted them from the social contexts you've encountered them.

That being said, your 'definition' of the two words are naturally debatable. Those are the meanings that you assigned them. The ones that I have assigned are as follows:

Competition is simply the act of competing (which I believe coincides with your definition)
Competitive carries with it the idea of a 'closeness'. As in 'That wasn't a competitive at all, the Pats won by 30'.

By the connotation of the word competitive, Brawl is inherently so inasmuch that people of varying skills/moderate gaps in skill can still have close matches. I disagree with your point that in Brawl, its about 50/50 as in whether or not the better player will win (at least that's what I gathered from your post). I disagree because I still find myself beating people that I should be, and losing to people I should lose to. Although the frequency with which this occurs has diminished, it is nowhere near 50/50.

In that regard, Brawl is more competitive. What this part of the argument boils down to for the 'Pro-Melee/Anti-Brawl' individual *seems* to be a personal taste; they prefer to show off and four stock someone of lesser (though by no means a 'scrub') than having a close match with that same person. They favor winning huge over winning close. While this makes sense to some degree, being an avid sports participant (tennis,football,volleyball) for years- I've always enjoyed the latter. But, that's a matter of personal tastes I suppose.

Secondly, your statement of comparing Melee to Brawl is partially fallacious. Partially, in the fact that the two are apples and oranges. So, in order to compare them we must 'standardize' them. Think of Brawl as one company (anything... let's say... oh... a manufacturing company) and Melee as an entirely different company in another industry (EX: A tech. company). Each are different sizes, have different revenues, etc. I'm saying this to make them as different as possible (which they in fact are).

Now, to analyze and compare these two companies, we have to standardize them so they can be compared in relative terms. In Finance, they use Price/Earnings ratios, or Return/Risk standardizations when talking about the stocks of the respective companies in a portfolio.

We can standardize them on several key aspects that commonly define 'competition' in the video game industry or whatknot. As I do this, I am taking it from the Brawl perspective, but it can easily be turned around to represent the Melee side, which I will do for the first few:

More Characters = More Diversity = Numerous playstyles = More competitive [brawl]
Less Characters= Less Diversity = Less playstyles = Less competitive

Less Clones= More Diversity= Numerous playstyles= More competitive [brawl]
More clones= Less Diversity = Less playstyles = Less competitive

More Balanced Characters= Less emphasis on WHO the character is, and more on player's mental skill= More Competitive [brawl]
Less Balanced Characters= More emphasis on WHO the character is, and less on player's mental skill= Less competitive

Less advanced techniques= 'simpler' game = more emphasis on mastery of core techniques=more competitive [brawl]

etc....

Note that I am not including the game's physics, because the physics is the thing that sets them apart.

Again, the competitive definition used is my 'assigned meaning' to it.
But, to use your own definition the same would ring true due to the fact that more emphasis is placed on complete mastery of those techniques available in order to achieve dominance. Because one can only master these limited techniques to a certain extent, it stops becoming 'what you know' and instead 'how to use it'. Think of it this way, if I and Ken or PC Chris played- and 'advanced techniques' were barred- Ken or PC Chris would easily defeat me; because their mastery over the 'normalcies' as it were, of the game while mastered to an equal extend by the both of us- would be used more effectively.

Anyway, i could go on... but Im quite sure this is rather long-winded, so- I'll conclude.
 

Wiseguy

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 28, 2007
Messages
2,245
Location
Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada (Proud
The problem is the risk-reward factor. Melee's risk-reward ratio is, for the most part, fairly balanced. The attacker has a lot of options going in. If the approach fails to inflict damage, the attacker has several ways to either reset the situation or, better, maintain pressure on the defending opponent. If the attacker manages to land a hit, he can press his newly gained advantage with a combo.

But every step of the way, the defender also has options with which he can turn the enemy's approach upside-down, or, as a last resort, at least reset the situation. And if he gets stuck in a chain of attacks, he can minimize the damage by making intelligent decisions, or he can even escape and fight back. The key point is that both attacker and defender have to constantly outsmart each other, because the resources with which they can fight each other are evenly matched.

In Brawl, the scales are tipped too far in the defender's favor. The attacker is forced to place himself at a disproportionately high risk for a very small reward. There is very little that the attacker can do to approach the defender without putting himself at a disadvantage, and even if he manages to land a hit, he cannot press his advantage because the situation almost automatically resets itself. The rewards of a successful defense are similarly small, but the risks are also substantially lower. As a result, there is every incentive to camp and defend, and almost no incentive to play offensively, because aggression places you in unnecessary danger.

While a defensive strategy is not inherently bad--many competitive Melee players thrived off of more a defensive gameplan--a well-designed game should not discourage either offense or defense. Melee struck a great balance between offense and defense. But in Brawl, you are discouraged from playing aggressively, leaving you with little choice but to camp. Because of this, a huge amount of strategic variety has been lost in the transition between the two games, and depth inevitably suffers as a result.
"But every step of the way, the defender also has options with which he can turn the enemy's approach upside-down, or, as a last resort, at least reset the situation. And if he gets stuck in a chain of attacks, he can minimize the damage by making intelligent decisions, or he can even escape and fight back. The key point is that both attacker and defender have to constantly outsmart each other, because the resources with which they can fight each other are evenly matched."

If these two hypothetical Melee players are playing the exact same character, maaaayyybbbeee. In Melee, you had your high tier offensive powerhouses and then you had everyone else. Not exactly evenly matched by a long shot.

"There is very little that the attacker can do to approach the defender without putting himself at a disadvantage, and even if he manages to land a hit, he cannot press his advantage because the situation almost automatically resets itself. The rewards of a successful defense are similarly small, but the risks are also substantially lower. As a result, there is every incentive to camp and defend, and almost no incentive to play offensively, because aggression places you in unnecessary danger."

If that turns out to be right (not everyone agrees) then the most skilled "camper" will win. And we'll have tournaments where people devise the best camping strategies to ensure victory. It's still skill based, which means competition will thrive.

But with so many characters in Brawl, and with so little experience with them, I don't see how you can know definitely that new offensive strategies won't develop.

"While a defensive strategy is not inherently bad--many competitive Melee players thrived off of more a defensive gameplan--a well-designed game should not discourage either offense or defense. Melee struck a great balance between offense and defense. But in Brawl, you are discouraged from playing aggressively, leaving you with little choice but to camp. Because of this, a huge amount of strategic variety has been lost in the transition between the two games, and depth inevitably suffers as a result."

The way I see it, matches may be defense oriented - but you'll also have longer matches. And since delivering a KO requires SOME offensive action, we're sure to see short blasts of agression. Different kinds of strategies will develop around this new formulae, but ONLY time will tell if it turns out to be lacking in strategic variety.

I don't buy this argument. It's true that Brawl's ease of execution means more players will have access to a larger percentage of options. But technical barriers aside, Melee plainly offers more options to its players. From a strategic standpoint, the choices you make in Melee are just as important, if not more important, than any of the decisions you can make in Brawl. Accessibility has nothing to do with the game's depth at the highest levels of play.
Taking out elements like L canceling might remove some options. But going from 26 playable characters to 39 (including Squirtle, Sheik, etc.) definitely ADDS options. Particularily in more of them are actually viable in competitive matches.

Not to mention that the ammount of nuances in a character like Snake. (No one knows even now what that character is truly capable of.)

So yeah. Claiming that Brawl with lackin in strategic options at this point is sheer lunacy. It's far, far too early to make such claims.
 

crazygoose

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
25
@ crazy goose: I called you a bigot because of the phrase "you guys are so queer over melee"... I mean, really? wow.
Ok, I thought that was where you were getting that from.

Saying someone is "g*y for something" is a figure of speech. Take for example Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles. I'm a bigger fan of the game than most I know because I like lightgun shooters. You might say that I'm "g*y for lightgun shooters."

Now, had I said that "you're a bunch of queers who like Melee" then that would have been different. The way that you (incorrectly) quoted me could also be taken as bigotry.

Savvy?
 

MajinSweet

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
295
Location
New York
It has been explained, multiple times and you know it(you were there, I saw you -.-)

L-canceling allowed for greater range of play as it allowed you to approach a shielding opponent, and it allowed alot of moves that would normally be unusable to be usable(Gannon's Fair, Dair, Nair. Doc/Mario's Fair, Marth's Dair, Kirby's Dair etc, etc) By allowing those attacks to actually be usable, it allowed each characters metagame to expand. In Brawl, there are attacks that will become UNUSABLE because of their monstrous lag(once again, gannon takes a huge hit, as does bowser, and even CF) thus decreasing the overall usefulness of certain characters. And you can't use the "Just auto-cancel it" argument as its not really a viable option. You CAN auto cancel Gannon's Dair, but only if you full jump it and use it RIGHT away, so it only comes out at the peak of his jump. This is VERY situational as to when it will work, and other attacks, like gannons Uair or most of Ike's anything cant be auto-canceled.
For starters, my point was about the actually usage of L-canceling, not the applications of it. Secondly, how is being able to use ganon's dair right from a short hop with zero lag situational. And yes, its from a short hop, not a full jump, I'll give you this just for reference.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=kRLIJxyPG8Q

The rest of what your saying shows you really don't no much about Brawl. Ganon's up air for example has low lag, and can be auto canceled from a full jump. Ike's bair, nair, can be easily auto canceled and his fair when spaced probably isn't punished even with its lag afterwards.

You guys argue all based on THEORY, not actual experience. You simply assume that slow characters can't function without L-canceling because your imagining it on Melee terms--not Brawl. Of course you can't approach with ganon's fair anymore, he will get shield grabbed, but what about his amazing side B? Or spaced forward tilts?
 

Trizzy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
26
Location
Northern VA

...Then play that same guy in Smash 64 and you will find out that his tactics will change the flow of battle. Brawl has most of the technical aspects of Melee and plus more. It is a different game there for tactics will change as it did in melee. to Smash 64. If the pro was as good as he is then he would have no problem adapting to brawls physics and using them to his advantage.
I absolutely agree. But compare the skill of an average player to that of a pro in all of the above games and you will simply find a much larger gap in Melee. That's due to the difficulty and the amount of practice involved in MASTERING the advanced techs in Melee. That's just mastering them. Those that could incorporate them into their game on the fly (Because I don't think anyone will argue that Melee was definitely faster) was a whole 'nother tier of players.

Good players will ALWAYS be good players. They just become better when you give them more useful and difficult to use tools. Melee has just that.

It took me hours to master the timing of Falco's SHFFB in melee. It took me days to incorporate it into my game. I don't even want to get into how long it took me to get Wavedashing down...

The only AT in Brawl that I even had a problem with was RAR, and that took me all of 10 minutes to figure out and I put it into my game play almost immediately.

Melee's learning curve was much higher for advanced play than any other Smash game. Which... I'm pretty sure is what is being discussed.
 

SynikaL

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 15, 2004
Messages
1,973
Location
Boynton Beach, FL
Ok, I thought that was where you were getting that from.

Saying someone is "g*y for something" is a figure of speech. Take for example Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles. I'm a bigger fan of the game than most I know because I like lightgun shooters. You might say that I'm "g*y for lightgun shooters."

Now, had I said that "you're a bunch of queers who like Melee" then that would have been different. The way that you (incorrectly) quoted me could also be taken as bigotry.

Savvy?
LOL, guy. More than your phraseologies, your entire disposition is bigoted. Go to your new forum already. What's your reputation to mere children?


-Syn
 

MajinSweet

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
295
Location
New York
Don't take it personally that I'm not listing examples for you. All of my posts take about 20 minutes to read things and respond to them. I don't have time to just sit and explain every detail of my argument to every person.

But from your posts, it's clear that you are not an authority on Melee. I trust that you are a smart person and know as much as anyone else about Brawl, but you have listed simple things about Melee that are not true. I know it seems arrogant, but in a society where skill and knowledge differentiate echelons, I can safely assume that I know much more than you about SSBM and that you're taking what you do know and using it to form opinions.

The only problem is that you don't know enough to make the points you're trying to make.
But at this point your using the same type of argument that many pro brawlers have and been shot done justly. "I'm right because I said so." And would it really take you so long to answer a question? Does Bowser get as much out of dash dancing as Marth does? Does Zelda get as much out of wavedashing as the Ice Climbers? Hell, its a known fact that Young Link has the worst fast fall in Melee. If all your going to say is "Your not an authority on Melee." Then what would be stopping me from using the same blanket defense? Your not an authority on Brawl, therefor everything you say is wrong. If your going to make a topic asking for an intelligent debate, but then are not even willing to go half way into a disagreement. While at the same time basically tell that person to stop talking, how exactly is that fair? Its gotten to the point where no one is truly trying to show how Brawl doesn't add up to Melee. Its become more of, selling Brawl short in every regard because its so new--and use the fact that Melee's been out so long. Do you really think Brawl is so shallow competitivly compared to Melee, or is that just what you want to be true? There have been many times in this topic where people have said things about Brawl that just isn't true, and pro Brawlers have been trying to show why they are wrong to no avail. But, when someone supposedly says something false about Melee we get the response of "I don't know you, shut up." Don't you see how this is quite clearly an unfair comparison? You guys have what? Almost 7 years of development backing you, while we have many new things that people in this topic don't even know about. Or clear misconceptions about the very basics of the game.
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Messages
11,926
Location
San Francisco, CA
you're just choosing examples that you want

luigi/ICs get more mileage out of wavedashing than anyone in the top two tiers, yoshi gets more out of DJCing than peach, dk shield grab's more important than falco, bowser needs l-canceling more than sheik

you are just giving stupid examples, for each of which there's a similar argument in the opposite direction

take away l canceling... is sheik still top tier? easily... does ganondorf stay where he is? unlikely
 

eyestrain92

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 24, 2006
Messages
242
Location
The Bay, CA
This arguement should not start up this early. The main arguement is 'BRAWL IS SLOWER' combined with a bunch of opinions which seem like facts, worded semi-intelligently which most people seem to just jump on with.

So speed makes competition? When was that ever true? Obviously, no one here has played Chess, or Advanced Wars. Speed has NOTHING to do with it, skill was simply overemphasized in melee, leaving strategy rather underaddressed. Look at some of the new characters, strategy was meant to be an integral part of brawl. Contrary to it's name, it's now much more than just a random little brawl to the competitive scene. Look at the pace of the game and the new attacks and different modifications to previous character, they attempted to balance it. Why anyone would say balancing characters makes brawl so much less competitive, tell me now. Isn't it more competitive now that more characters have a better chance at actually COMPETING? You can't tell me anything but that and be making a logical point.
 

Wife

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 3, 2004
Messages
1,641
Location
EC, MD
Ok, are you chowder heads ready for the truth? The truth is, Brawl is a child's game, plain and simple. It was made for, and with the sole purpose of satisfying, small children or those who have no intention of putting out more effort than you would to play Jak and Daxter.

The writing is on the wall, and I'm so disappointed that we are as a community planning on moving forward with this game. I could really write a book on the endless shortcomings of Brawl, such as how it has about as much depth as a sandbox, but let me make my point: Brawl was made to ease the pain of persons who suffered in the face of complicated Melee gameplay. I mean, the dude even said it himself he doesnt want to the game to be so competitive. I've had the game since it's Japanese release and it seems abundently clear what the benefits of this game are . . .

Like to roll a lot? NO PROBLEM!! No big deal friend, you might get hit once, twice at worst. Roll away!

Can't space your upB on the ledge? NO WORRIES!! Feel free to check your cell phone while you play, you won't be punished. The auto-suck on ensures that EVERYONE can get back on the ledge, not just those with talent.

Can't train your fingers to WD, L-Cancel, or meteor cancel? DONT' SWEAT IT!! Now no one can, so the division of skill will be much more fair. Finally, thank god!!

There's some kid down the street who always whoops your *** and then makes fun of you in 7th grade science class? HELP IS HERE!! Because now with Brawl, you can basically mash your palm against the controller and make great things happen.
**** guy, for that matter, he'll be so busy tripping randomly you can just get him then.
Or **** man, after you hit him you'll have a good 12 seconds before he comes back down again so you have plenty of time to plan your next attack. This way there will be no pressure whatsoever during the match.

That's because in Melee you were forced to make bsplit second decisions, supported by split frame timing and precise finger movements. ON TOP of the mind games which people are flaunting as the upside of Brawl.
If Melee was Fight Club, then Brawl is like, you know when you would wrestle in those ball pits? You could pretend you were Edward Norton, but everything is padded anyway and besides you know your mom is watching from outside anyway just in case.

Melee still has years left on it. We were just figuring it out. M2k was discovering new things up to the end, and some random kid won the last tournament. There's no reason we can't keep playing Melee.

My final argument and then I'll finish:
How on earth are you going to convince a girl that playing smash for a living isn't so stupid? In Melee you could explain the complex mechanics, the sophisticated mental battles, and high level of competition.
How are you going to get any *** at all if you have to explain why you spend your weekends playing Brawl? Just look at it. It's ****ing embarrassing.
 

AKC12

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 4, 2005
Messages
484
Location
Marlborough, MA
I really don't think the loss of L-canceling will 'change' tier positions of some characters; more like it is irrelevent in Brawl. For Melee, gave some character's the ability to do crazy combos which made the game unbalanced to the point of only around 10 usable characters in tourney play most of the time. Although slow characters obviously benefitted as well, those high tier characters benefitted MUCH more than those low tier char.

With no L-canceling in Brawl, it gave the makers a chance to try to balance out the characters; I bet they also looked into the tourney scene as well. Yet new techs will be discovered and those will determine whos at the top and who dwindles down. In Brawl, we might have to adapt to new limitations. slower characters will have to be careful with their spacing while dishing out longer range attacks that are laggy and strong, and retreat or whatever after. The faster ones do as well, it is much harder to pull off long chains of combos, and there should be second thoughts of rushing in because defense against them has improved due to shield grabbing, new shield mechanics, etc. Also due to no L-cancel we might have to rely on ground attacks more than ever, both fast and slow, top tier and low tier.

So I think the loss of L-Canceling is for the balance, and although first thoughts might think so, slow/low tier characters actually have a better chance in Brawl. It's all about adapting to Brawl's new fighting system...
 

eyestrain92

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 24, 2006
Messages
242
Location
The Bay, CA
No, the "metagame" of brawl was simply built on glitching. I'm sorry, but any game with something so broken as waveshining can't be taken as anything more than a joke in comparison to Brawl right now if you want to make that arguement. Precision is still here, methinks no one here can think as well as they can mash buttons if they want to make that arguement. Stop cussing, all that means is that your temper is on a hairpin trigger and your rants should be discarded as such.

Ok, are you chowder heads ready for the truth? The truth is, Brawl is a child's game, plain and simple. It was made for, and with the sole purpose of satisfying, small children or those who have no intention of putting out more effort than you would to play Jak and Daxter.

The writing is on the wall, and I'm so disappointed that we are as a community planning on moving forward with this game. I could really write a book on the endless shortcomings of Brawl, such as how it has about as much depth as a sandbox, but let me make my point: Brawl was made to ease the pain of persons who suffered in the face of complicated Melee gameplay. I mean, the dude even said it himself he doesnt want to the game to be so competitive. I've had the game since it's Japanese release and it seems abundently clear what the benefits of this game are . . .

Like to roll a lot? NO PROBLEM!! No big deal friend, you might get hit once, twice at worst. Roll away!

Can't space your upB on the ledge? NO WORRIES!! Feel free to check your cell phone while you play, you won't be punished. The auto-suck on ensures that EVERYONE can get back on the ledge, not just those with talent.

Can't train your fingers to WD, L-Cancel, or meteor cancel? DONT' SWEAT IT!! Now no one can, so the division of skill will be much more fair. Finally, thank god!!

There's some kid down the street who always whoops your *** and then makes fun of you in 7th grade science class? HELP IS HERE!! Because now with Brawl, you can basically mash your palm against the controller and make great things happen.
**** guy, for that matter, he'll be so busy tripping randomly you can just get him then.
Or **** man, after you hit him you'll have a good 12 seconds before he comes back down again so you have plenty of time to plan your next attack. This way there will be no pressure whatsoever during the match.

That's because in Melee you were forced to make bsplit second decisions, supported by split frame timing and precise finger movements. ON TOP of the mind games which people are flaunting as the upside of Brawl.
If Melee was Fight Club, then Brawl is like, you know when you would wrestle in those ball pits? You could pretend you were Edward Norton, but everything is padded anyway and besides you know your mom is watching from outside anyway just in case.

Melee still has years left on it. We were just figuring it out. M2k was discovering new things up to the end, and some random kid won the last tournament. There's no reason we can't keep playing Melee.

My final argument and then I'll finish:
How on earth are you going to convince a girl that playing smash for a living isn't so stupid? In Melee you could explain the complex mechanics, the sophisticated mental battles, and high level of competition.
How are you going to get any *** at all if you have to explain why you spend your weekends playing Brawl? Just look at it. It's ****ing embarrassing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom