SBR Recommended Rule List Discussion: Brawl

[DRaGZ]

But what's so bad about giving Ganondorf a clear win or loss on a Ganoncide?

I mean, it appears that, while there are other factors, controller port also plays a big part in it.

Shouldn't that alone be enough to give a clear-cut ruling on what happens?

 

[memphischains]

you have an entire "bullet" dedicated to Bowser committing suicide, then another about you having responsibility for your character.

Unless you granted Bowser players something more, it should be reworked.

And the MK infinite shouldn't be banned, and treated like every other stalling tactic we have. How is rising pound really any different? or Sonic's homing attack? Each one of those can be pushed to the limit of stall as such.

Also, the game isn't even a year old. What if someone find something at a tournament that creates a problem? (ex. glitch, bug)

SBR certified would be a "copy, paste" which you discourage.
Certain "notes" could be modified to still be SBR certified and affect game play.

Discouraging controllers is stupid, you have to give leeway to the games options, which you ignore by asking people no to use wii motes.

like really?

 

[Overswarm]

you have an entire "bullet" dedicated to Bowser committing suicide, then another about you having responsibility for your character.

Responsibility for your character in terms of glitches that make the game unplayable.

We don't like the idea of port advantage. If we could turn it off, we would; Bowser's suicide is clear cut. You need a certain port to win, and a certain port to SD. If the jump theory is correct, this may be changed in the future assuming it isn't something ridiculous like one frame openings. We discussed this in length, and decided that removing port advantage was a big deal.

If we kept it the way it was and simply said "go for it", on the last stock, Bowser could koopa klaw and DI off the side and then win if he's in a higher port regardless of %, but lose if he's at a higher % and a lower port. There's no reason for Bowser's game to change that much simply because of a port choice. Since Bowser should be winning in every scenario except he koopa klaws the opponent when his opponent has really low % and he has really high % and the opponent DIs him off the stage (Bowser initiating this action, btw, totally his choice)... the only thing we removed is Bowser losing based off an opponent's action after he does his move. We don't believe giving hte opponent the ability to kill Bowser if Bowser uses a certain move at a certain % break is worth keeping when it means the port advantage exists.

Other suicides, such as Kirby, D3, Wario, and Ganon's, aren't clear cut. They either aren't fully understood by anyone, or have multiple factors addressing them. If you have evidence otherwise, post it (preferrably a video); we've not seen anything concrete yet in any way on any of these tactics.

And the MK infinite shouldn't be banned, and treated like every other stalling tactic we have. How is rising pound really any different? or Sonic's homing attack? Each one of those can be pushed to the limit of stall as such.

The difference is, MK has the ability to do this on command for an indefinite period of time. When does it become stalling? Can MK not do this for an entire transformation on PS1 because he doesn't like it? Can MK not do this every time you respawn until you are willing to stand on the opposite side of the stage?

The only way to make the move "fair" is to say "you can only use it for X amount of seconds". But, we don't have enough people or stopwatches for that. Regardless, if we said he could only do it for 30 seconds, the new best strategy would be to use it for 29 and then repeat.

Even if we just did the old fashioned "that's stalling" that we use in extreme cases like Jigg's rising pound in Melee (Sonic's homing stall can be gotten around easily, and it costs Sonic a stock oftentimes), are you gonna be the guy to tell the MK he needs to get out of that invincibility when his opponent is standing next to him?

It puts the gmae solely in MK's hands; the opponent can't do anything unless MK deems it favorable for him. The game is literally unplayable since, logically, the MK shouldn't do anytihng until the opponent leaves himself open for attack. So, we ban it.

Also, the game isn't even a year old. What if someone find something at a tournament that creates a problem? (ex. glitch, bug)

This is a living document. Things will be changed.

Discouraging controllers is stupid, you have to give leeway to the games options, which you ignore by asking people no to use wii motes.

like really?

Like really. Wiimotes and other wireless controllers cause problems, and as such should be discouraged. However, they are viable and should not be banned. So, we gave notes to show what a TO can do to limit interference.

 

[DRaGZ]

Why not just give clear-cut ruling to suicides? o_O

Make them wins or losses.

 

[Overswarm]

Why not just give clear-cut ruling to suicides? o_O

Make them wins or losses.

We don't want to interefere much.

The concept was brought up though, we just didn't run with it. In the future, this may be the case that the initiator wins all suicide kills... but it is not a for sure thing or even likely at this point.

Basically, if it is in the player's control we leave it alone. Port advantage is not in the player's control and is stupid.

 

[DRaGZ]

Okay.

Wheeeeee.

 

[Olimar369]

I like that reasoning :D

 

[Sliq]

memphischains doesn't understand that Kratos is awesome and Zelos is lame.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

memphischains doesn't understand that Kratos is awesome and Zelos is lame.

Kratos learns ****ing judgement if you do it...zelos learns...***gotry. Srsly, if martel went into zelos's body...girl in guys body...blech. Anyway, this list will obviously be updated when something it said proves to be unfair, as i assume at least 3 or 4 of the stages will, but time will tell.

 

[kole1980]

I agree with ESAM..............

 

[Kyas]

Certain stages are banned because they force players to switch characters or face defeat. It seems a bit hypocritical, however, to set the damage ceiling for infinites at 300%. It would seem more reasonable (and conducive of more interesting competitive play) to set the damage ceiling for infinites at a percent below lethal levels (something around 50-75% seems appropriate to me). This would allow infinites to remain an important part of the game without their making certain matchups neigh impossible. This would, of course, hinder certain characters such as ICs, but only to a reasonable degree. Without infinites being used (or abused, as I see it) to kill, there would be a far more diverse variety of matchups in tournaments, which is something I'd like to see

Just an interesting idea I wanted to express.

 

[DEV64]

finaly a rule list sweet now we accutally have some guide lines to our tourney's so everybody can follow theses and everybody can be happy and not mad at some rules at a tourney(EVO)I completely agree with kayas.

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

RPS is used because people don't always have a coin, and RPS allows you to be in control in some fashion. It isn't luck.

That all depends on if someone with great skill can slow their release of the RPS without getting caught.

But besides that it is luck, because you don't know what the opponent is going to pick - and you can't control what the opponent is going to pick. IMO

 

[Overswarm]

That all depends on if someone with great skill can slow their release of the RPS without getting caught.

But besides that it is luck, because you don't know what the opponent is going to pick - and you can't control what the opponent is going to pick. IMO

When dashing at an opponent in Brawl, you can't tell if they are going to shield, spot dodge, or do an attack.... but you have to make a decision anyway. Reading your opponent is possible in RPS.

 

[Chip.]

rps = ?

?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

rps= rock paper scissors.

 

[Sliq]

rps = ?

?

Ritualistic Penis Salvation

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Sarcasm is not needed in these internets sliq.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

rps = ?

?

Regulated Phosphorus Statistics

 

[popsofctown]

I'm pretty concerned about people cheating in rock paper scissors.


Overswarm is correct, there is a very slight ability to win rock paper scissors, independent of luck. But it's so slight you'd never see it. The only way rps will move significantly far away from 50/50 is if people start cheating. If i was really nervous before a brawl match i wouldn't notice the guy cheating.

I think rps is fine if no coin is available, but if i myself bring a coin, i think coin flip should be preferred. I agree that rps is nicer than coin flip in the having-control department, but fairness>control.

 

[metaXzero]

I don't even know anymore @.@

 

[Chip.]

Ritualistic Penis Salvation

lmao

this one might be a little better than Dazwa's

 

[Overswarm]

If someone devotes their time to learning how to cheat at RPS and risk doing so against someone in a public tournament, I think there are bigger problems than who gets to pick the last stage in the strikeout system or who gets what port.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Personally, I'm still baffled by the general perception of Spear Pillar. There is never a time where "controls are flipped". There are two flip scenarios: the camera rotates 180 degrees (I usually jump off the chair and turn my head upside down; this would be golden to see people doing in a tournament), and the camera mirrors horizontally. Controls remain the same. In the mirror situation, you have to train your mind to continue fighting your opponent relative to where he/she was as you were approaching. It would be ridiculously unfair if the controls just flipped without any warning, but you see the picture flip. That is completely controllable and not random.

I could see Spear Pillar being banned for other reasons (such as the loop aspect), but the picture rotating/flipping reason seems so poorly supported. People just do not seem to 'like' it.

 

[Ref]

Has anyone talked about Pausing? Will it be on or off in a tourney? When it is acceptable to pause? What's the difference between intentional and unintentional pausing if pausing is on?

If pausing is off why? What if someone needs to use the bathroom? The wii cords or TV somehow unplugs?

Should pausing be on or off?

I think Pausing should be on but excessive pausing should be banned, or pausing to stop chains. But how will we know these aren't accidental?

 

[Ignatius]

Actually there's a pretty standard pausing rule a lot of tournaments use, where if you need to ask your opponent if it's alright to pause first, and if they pause without asking, you have the option to restart the match.

 

[Ace55]

Actually there's a pretty standard pausing rule a lot of tournaments use, where if you need to ask your opponent if it's alright to pause first, and if they pause without asking, you have the option to restart the match.

So if you're behind you can basically pause whenever you want? Because your opponent probably doesn't want to restart.

 

[Overswarm]

The rule is generally up to the TO; most tournaments just give the win to the player that didn't pause if it is excessive.

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

Most tourneys I go to say the rule on pausing is - "If you pause once your knocked out automatic because you should know how to play without pausing." lolz.

The pause button is right in the middle, how many times is your finger in the middle of the controller - you have to be doing that on purpose.

While I thought it was extreme, it somewhat made sense....but there still is the bathroom rule which is "go before you play" duh lol.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Sometimes i pause by accident when trying to mash out of a grab, so it shouldn't be once and your out. If you do it and it SEVERELY impacts the gameplay, the person should lose that match. But nobody is stupid enough to deliberately pause in the middle of a game over and over again.

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

Sometimes i pause by accident when trying to mash out of a grab, so it shouldn't be once and your out. If you do it and it SEVERELY impacts the gameplay, the person should lose that match. But nobody is stupid enough to deliberately pause in the middle of a game over and over again.

Sounds like a personal problem, that never happens to me even when I'm mashing out of a grab......besides that I agree.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I know, but i like..spasm to get out.

 

[Mr.E]

During intense moments it's surprisingly easy to hit that Home key if you're playing Mote/Chuk. *shrug*

 

[YoshiBomb]

holy S#&% I can believe you guys voted Pictochat as a counter pick wow just wow

also same for Distant Planet


ah I have the time might as well give reasoning

Pictochat

There are parts of pictochat that can cause stalling if the person doesn't want to get out of some of the objects you can not go through. So this means if someone gets into one of them they can just sit there it goes away and the other person can do nothing about. Also Parts that cause damage some of them are not to bad but others like the spikes on the side walls and the fence posts can cause alot of problems. Though most of the different drawings are short they may still cause effects that may not have happened on another level. So all in all I think Pictochat should be banned


Distant Planet


This level has one major problem and some minor ones that should make it a baned level. First I will start with the major problem. With the level design its ok but when the big yellow monster isn't there it gives a huge advantage to characters with better recovery and jumps an advantage. Another thing is the fact that there is an instant death with the yellow monster thing is a problem but not as bad as the other ones since you can avoid it with pretty much any character. Finally the items all though there not to bad they can cause some problems and cause a bit to much damage to make it a counter pick level. Also I think it should be banned.

there my opinions take em or leave them

 

[hippochinfat!!]

I almost cried when I read the colour blind rule.

Back roomers, always sticking out for little guy.

Sometimes i pause by accident when trying to mash out of a grab, so it shouldn't be once and your out. If you do it and it SEVERELY impacts the gameplay, the person should lose that match. But nobody is stupid enough to deliberately pause in the middle of a game over and over again.

Shouldn't pause be turned off?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Pause is too miniscule of a problem to have it turned off entirely. If you realize somebody is doing it to mess up gameplay, than that person forfeits that current match. We don't need to turn it off just because some ppl may do it by accident, since it is highly unlikely that it will result in the other person suiciding or anything of that matter.

 

[Sliq]

Personally, I'm still baffled by the general perception of Spear Pillar. There is never a time where "controls are flipped". There are two flip scenarios: the camera rotates 180 degrees (I usually jump off the chair and turn my head upside down; this would be golden to see people doing in a tournament), and the camera mirrors horizontally. Controls remain the same. In the mirror situation, you have to train your mind to continue fighting your opponent relative to where he/she was as you were approaching. It would be ridiculously unfair if the controls just flipped without any warning, but you see the picture flip. That is completely controllable and not random.

I could see Spear Pillar being banned for other reasons (such as the loop aspect), but the picture rotating/flipping reason seems so poorly supported. People just do not seem to 'like' it.

I agree 100% with this.

 

[XienZo]

About the hazard in Distant Planet, what happens when someone suicides into it(bowsercide, gannoncide, so on)? Is it still percent, because I think the game would give the win to whoever's on the left.

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

holy S#&% I can believe you guys voted Pictochat as a counter pick wow just wow

also same for Distant Planet


ah I have the time might as well give reasoning

Pictochat

There are parts of pictochat that can cause stalling if the person doesn't want to get out of some of the objects you can not go through. So this means if someone gets into one of them they can just sit there it goes away and the other person can do nothing about. Also Parts that cause damage some of them are not to bad but others like the spikes on the side walls and the fence posts can cause alot of problems. Though most of the different drawings are short they may still cause effects that may not have happened on another level. So all in all I think Pictochat should be banned


Distant Planet


This level has one major problem and some minor ones that should make it a baned level. First I will start with the major problem. With the level design its ok but when the big yellow monster isn't there it gives a huge advantage to characters with better recovery and jumps an advantage. Another thing is the fact that there is an instant death with the yellow monster thing is a problem but not as bad as the other ones since you can avoid it with pretty much any character. Finally the items all though there not to bad they can cause some problems and cause a bit to much damage to make it a counter pick level. Also I think it should be banned.

there my opinions take em or leave them

Watch Overswarm come in here and totally justify the things in your post as to why it's a CP

No Offense, I'm just saying.

 

[Sinz]

Pictochat

There are parts of pictochat that can cause stalling if the person doesn't want to get out of some of the objects you can not go through. So this means if someone gets into one of them they can just sit there it goes away and the other person can do nothing about. Also Parts that cause damage some of them are not to bad but others like the spikes on the side walls and the fence posts can cause alot of problems. Though most of the different drawings are short they may still cause effects that may not have happened on another level. So all in all I think Pictochat should be banned

So your saying a level that is neutral majority of the time, and has random events should be banned, because you believe that there are parts where the opponent is unable to do anything and would contribute to stalling? Wrong, the parts disappear after time. There are few transformations that make it so your opponent can't reach you, for a short period of time. This is similar to pokemon stadium transformations, it would just be bad to approach your opponent right there anyways.
Also parts cause damage? You really think that is a valid reason? Majority of the time it isn't lethal damage either. Yeah, the fence posts can kill, but so what. If you jump into them, your loss. There aren't infinites on this stage either. (other than IC's but that is every stage.)

Distant Planet


This level has one major problem and some minor ones that should make it a baned level. First I will start with the major problem. With the level design its ok but when the big yellow monster isn't there it gives a huge advantage to characters with better recovery and jumps an advantage. Another thing is the fact that there is an instant death with the yellow monster thing is a problem but not as bad as the other ones since you can avoid it with pretty much any character. Finally the items all though there not to bad they can cause some problems and cause a bit to much damage to make it a counter pick level. Also I think it should be banned.

The big yellow monster is a non issue. Ike players counter pick on this stage occasionally, so apparently having a bad recovery doesn't hurt too much after all. The items aren't that bad either, a smart player will use them to bait the opponent and then punish them. Plus, why grab an item in a random spot when you could be ko'ing the opponent?

There are better arguements for pokemon stadium one to be banned.