Samus's Rivals...Who gets the SSBB spot?

[fleapy]

Dark samus would end up being to much like zamus, wheras Ridley is a completely diferent enemy. It would be great to see him in, but what kind of moveset does he have. I suggest that anyone with a great amount of knowledge and time ( do things i don't have right now), make a moveset. Or not.

 

[shadenexus18]

Oh, a Ridley moveset....anyone up to fleapy's challenge?

 

[Sensai]

I'm sure if you'll look around, you'll be able to find at least one.

 

[Rhyme]

Read to the bottom of the first page, several movesets are suggested. Move ideas for Ridley

With even the remotest amount of creativity, Dark Samus wouldn't be a clone of Samus.

 

[gravsamus4747]

I think that one of the Samuses should get Speed Booster, and i think it should be Dark Samus because Samus already has a pretty well defined moveset, i mean take waya anythign and someone is pretty pissed off, but if Dark Samus is put in here's the moveset

B Scatter Blaster (Charge Shot, but gets wider and more powerful with charge)
B> Speed Booster (Like Falco's B> but chagres to become more powerful)
B^ Weird Phazon Cloud Dealy (Similar to Mewtwo's telrport)
B\/ Phazon Blast (Like Jigg's Rest)

 

[Link to the past]

I'd rather have craid than ridley. But in all honesty, I can't see either in SSBB. (Sharing Milo's views about this)

I'd be a lot more interested in playing a Chozo or a space pirate - we need another character with a good variety of projectiles. Enough of these sword based fighters already!s

Kraid!! are you nuts hes huge!! He would be fun to play but he would never make it in . Ridley I can see being in. I can see him being a bowser with wings thats a lot faster. I seen alot of people say that they want Drak Samus what about The SA-X ? That thing was cool !!

 

[MiraiGen]

Kraid is an abysmal choice, but not because he's huge, because he's stationary by reputation. Even if they put in the mini-Kraid outside of the Kraid bossroom in Super Metroid, he'd still waddle around and shoot **** out of his chest.

Ridley is one of the few choices that actually works in game, especially since he's a nefarious villain and not just Random Space Pirate/Chozodian #TK421.

 

[Link to the past]

Kraid is an abysmal choice, but not because he's huge, because he's stationary by reputation. Even if they put in the mini-Kraid outside of the Kraid bossroom in Super Metroid, he'd still waddle around and shoot **** out of his chest.

Ridley is one of the few choices that actually works in game, especially since he's a nefarious villain and not just Random Space Pirate/Chozodian #TK421.

I totally forgot about that baby Kraid

 

[Lord_Deathborne]

Ridley is one of the few choices that actually works in game, especially since he's a nefarious villain and not just Random Space Pirate/Chozodian #TK421.

LOL. You're a fellow Star Wars fan I see...

But yeah, before Metroid Fusion, Ridley was the ONLY feasible choice for a Metroid representative in Smash other than Samus - and even then there wouldn't be any other decent choices until the Hunters (sorry, but SA-X is a clone, and DS, though not strictly a clone, is still too derivative).

 

[D.A.N.]

The most likely choice I could see would be Dark Samus. It would be a cinch to work in as a Samus clone and Dark Samus has credibility and notoriety among more than just Metroid fans. Ridley would be next, and any of the hunters from the DS game would fall last.

 

[Lord_Deathborne]

Dark Samus over Ridley?! I fail to understand such logic... Even any of the Hunters would be a better choice, IMO...

 

[Link to the past]

I'm going to Freak out if I see any of the other hunters in Brawl and not Ridley and am going to freak out evern more if I see Dark Samus and not Ridley. If Ridley is not in Brawl then some will get hurt.(out side of Brawl)

 

[Bowserlick]

There are a couple things a character from a series should be judged on. In this case the rivals are being debated. Who should get in?

Well I say there are three main factors.
1. Is the character famous enough? Renown? Will a majority or even half of players know who the character is?
2. How flavorful is the character? Will it offer new ideas and new movesets and add cretaivity and originality to the game?
3. How feasible is the character? Would it work mechanically?

Now here are my thoughts on how the rivals fall in the categories. The rivals are the hunters, Dark Samus, and Ridley. Keep in mind that I only played Super Metroid and the some of Metroid Prime. So I may not be the best authority on this.

1. Is the character famous enough? Renown? Will a majority or even half of players know who the character is?

Sakurai will add in characters that are not extremely popular. He said so on his website. But bear in mind that he also had a popularity poll. So he definately is trying to add in popular choices as well as unique, odd ball choices (remember G&W).

Ridley is on the top of the list in this category. He has been in the most games and serves as an integral plot point in the series, especially his role on Samus's past and future. Most players, both old and new, will recognize him.

Dark Samus comes next. She is in the latest series of games. She appeals to the new audience. Most younger gamers want her in. She is a recognizabe force and is the new main villain. Still she does not hold the fame that Ridley does.

The hunters are next. They were only in one game that seemed to flesh out the bounty hunter profile of Samus. A good portion of the audience may not who the hunter is. And a good portion of the audience may feel cheated that a hunter got in over Ridley or Dark Samus who have more reputation and history.

2. How flavorful is the character? Will it offer new ideas and new movesets and add cretivity and originality to the game?

I say Ridley tops the list once again. He would be a heavier character with great recovery. A new combination (although some worry a broken one). He also scores well in flavor. A giant space dragon that leads the space pirates on their quest to cultivate metroids. He has wings, breath weapons, and a sinister look. Plus he is inteliigent to boot. I think Ridley would look the coolest fighting.

Next I would rank the hunters. Each one has a designated ability and a method of fighting. Hunters could fight differently then Samus and the other characters while still bringing in the bounty hunter flavor.

Dark Samus, for me, scores low. She looks like Samus. Not all her moves are the same, but many are. And the moves she does do, I can picture Samus doing. Not true with Ridley at all. And not as true as with the hunters. To me she seems like she would end up to close to clone material. She may have different stats but her moveset will seem stale because of the similarity in body structure and even moves. Remember I am speculating, she would not necessarily turn out this likes, Sakurai is a smart guy.

3. How feasible is the character? Would it work mechanically?

Dark Samus takes the trophy on this category. While I think she lacks flavor, she will work. How do we know this? Samus works. And I think Dark Samus would have the same looking moves with stat adjustments and maybe a few different specials. And of course her energy weapons (instead of flamethrowers and plasma) would be phazon with different graphics. Just like Gannondorf uses purple magic instead of fire but goes through the same motions as CF.

The Hunters are next. They have bodies that could fight and fit every group of attacks. Enough said.

Ridley could work. But I seem him as the lowest because there are many features he contains that could be made broken if all were included. He is fast, heavy, strong, agile, can fly (great recovery), and has projectiles. That sounds better then Fox is. Of course Mewtwo (who can destroy people with thoughts) sucked. So Ridley can get in, but can he get in and not suck or be broken? Sure. But the developers would have to take extra care and time with him. I think its worth it, but others may not.

Therefore, I would say Ridley. Followed by a hunter, and then Dark Samus. But in bear in mind I have a negative bias towards clones and characters that may be clones.

 

[dotdotdot!]

Bravo Bowserlick, can I copy-paste that into my Negative Nancy thread?

 

[Bowserlick]

Thanks. Yes you can, no problem.

 

[Rhyme]

Not all her moves are the same, but many are. And the moves she does do, I can picture Samus doing. Not true with Ridley at all. And not as true as with the hunters. To me she seems like she would end up to close to clone material. She may have different stats but her moveset will seem stale because of the similarity in body structure and even moves. Remember I am speculating, she would not necessarily turn out this likes, Sakurai is a smart guy.

Ridley wouldn't necessarily be broken. Nintendo would simply remove one particular quality and justify it. For example, no character in Melee should be allowed to fly forever, so now Ridley can't. You say Ridley would be too fast? I disagree; I have played through Metroid Prime and Ridley seemed swamped with lag.

No character needs to be a clone, the game developers did this because time slows for no man. Now that they are putting this game off for so long to completely refine every character's ability from the very beginning(preceding paraphrased from translated updates), there should be fewer clonish qualities to characters.

Also who was it earlier that brought up the argument of similar build equals similar movesets, HiddenTiger? Kirby and Jigglypuff are very similar and yet not clonish at all(besides the multiple jumps). Dark Samus will not be a clone, everyone stop using that as your supporting evidence.

Logic statements in mathematics can be re-enforced with an infinite number of supporting evidence, but find a single instance which results in the statement being untrue and the entire assumption no longer retains any credibility.

 

[Bowserlick]

My views are in red.

Ridley wouldn't necessarily be broken. Nintendo would simply remove one particular quality and justify it. For example, no character in Melee should be allowed to fly forever, so now Ridley can't. You say Ridley would be too fast? I disagree; I have played through Metroid Prime and Ridley seemed swamped with lag.

I merely said out of the three choices, one can hypothesis that Ridley would be the hardest to design. His character would seem like it would be fast, heavy, have range, flight, projectiles, and be strong. Of course the game could balance him out. And I hope he makes it out. I was merely comparing the three characters over three categories. In my eyes Ridley is the best choice.

No character needs to be a clone, the game developers did this because time slows for no man. Now that they are putting this game off for so long to completely refine every character's ability from the very beginning(preceding paraphrased from translated updates), there should be fewer clonish qualities to characters.

I agree. That is why I think Dark Samus will not get in. In my eyes she would be too similar to Samus and as you said there is no reason for clones anymore.

Also who was it earlier that brought up the argument of similar build equals similar movesets, HiddenTiger? Kirby and Jigglypuff are very similar and yet not clonish at all(besides the multiple jumps). Dark Samus will not be a clone, everyone stop using that as your supporting evidence.

The difference is Dark Samus is based off of Samus. Your argument is weak. Jigglypuff is not based off Kirby. They are from different games, have different backstories, and different flavor. Dark Samus is part copy of the bounty hunter and in the game they do share moves from what I heard. I don't think Dark Samus will be a clone because I do not see her getting in because of your percentage of being too similar to Samus. And yes that is a valid point.

Logic statements in mathematics can be re-enforced with an infinite number of supporting evidence, but find a single instance which results in the statement being untrue and the entire assumption no longer retains any credibility.

 

[Rhyme]

I agree. That is why I think Dark Samus will not get in. In my eyes she would be too similar to Samus and as you said there is no reason for clones anymore.[/QOUTE]

But see, you don't agree with me. I did say that Brawl has no need for clones, but also that DS would not be a clone so she should have an equal opprotunity. Affermative Action, US History, come on people!

The difference is Dark Samus is based off of Samus. Your argument is weak. Jigglypuff is not based off Kirby. They are from different games, have different backstories, and different flavor. Dark Samus is part copy of the bounty hunter and in the game they do share moves from what I heard. I don't think Dark Samus will be a clone because I do not see her getting in because of your percentage of being too similar to Samus. And yes that is a valid point.

No, Jigglypuff is not based of Kirby, but, the argument was origionally over polygon modles and they have similar polygon modles. It has nothing to do with backstories and flavor this time, just polygons.

I understand that DS was, in a sense, cloned from Samus. That doesn't garuntee that they will be the same. Depending on who you heard from, some people will say they are completely similar, while others like myself will tell you that they only use 2 similar moves in the 4 encounters through Metroid Prime 2, and that's a fact.

Also, could you either rephrase or punctuate the second to last sentence better...I am having a great deal of difficulty deciphering exactly what you are saying.

 

[Sensai]

Also who was it earlier that brought up the argument of similar build equals similar movesets, HiddenTiger? Kirby and Jigglypuff are very similar and yet not clonish at all(besides the multiple jumps). Dark Samus will not be a clone, everyone stop using that as your supporting evidence.

No offense Rhyme (you know I <3 you), but this doesn't really hurt his case, as you proved by saying that time waits for no one.

The difference between Smash64 and Melee was that with 64 they only had a few characters, so clones would be dumb to have put in. In Melee, they attempted to make the game bigger, and thus threw in a lot of people who maybe should not have gotten in and made them clones (Young Link, Pichu, Roy).

 

[Rhyme]

No offense Rhyme (you know I <3 you), but this doesn't really hurt his case, as you proved by saying that time waits for no one.

The difference between Smash64 and Melee was that with 64 they only had a few characters, so clones would be dumb to have put in. In Melee, they attempted to make the game bigger, and thus threw in a lot of people who maybe should not have gotten in and made them clones (Young Link, Pichu, Roy).

Say again? I showed that two characters, in Melee now, with similar polygon modles are not clones, only to then say that if two more were to emerge which also had similar polygon modles, that they would not be clones. How did I prove his statement valid with my time refrence?

I don't get what you are saying by relating Smash 64 to Melee here.

I know, but it means a lot to hear you say that.:embarrass

 

[Devastlian]

Of course Dark Samus would be a clone of Samus. They're obviously exactly the same aside from their colours. I mean, Mario and Wario are just palette swaps of each other and they're definately gonna be clones.

 

[King Axel]

Really? I don't see Mario scratching an oversized butt.

 

[Konuk]

Doesn't matter at all. Smash has never stuck to canonity with the games it draws from. Young Link can't use the Bow or hookshot. Dr. Mario couldn't use any super jumps, sheets, or spin attacks. Do I even need to start on the differences between Ganon and Falcon? Your home game doesn't matter. In Smash, you're free game.

Again, that point is irrelevant. If Zelda and Sheik can be at opposite ends of the tier list, despite them being one and the same, than Samus and ZS Samus can, will, and shall henceforth be conisdered two characters. Two Samuses.

I'm not using the history of clones as my point. I'm using the fact that all clones have been built similarly to one another. The fact that Dark Samus is quite literally a pallette swap of normal Samus practically screams "Clone me!!!"

uhh...y.link has bow and hookshot if im wrong though i take it back

 

[shadenexus18]

Actually, I bet money dat Dark Samus & Samus Aran will play like Mario & Luigi esque fashion (if you get to use Samus's suit).

 

[T-major]

Of course Dark Samus would be a clone of Samus. They're obviously exactly the same aside from their colours. I mean, Mario and Wario are just palette swaps of each other and they're definately gonna be clones.

that was sarcasim. no question. Wario is 98.6% different from Mario, which is blantanly obvious. just from the 20 seconds we've seen of Wario, we can already tell that he won't be a clone. DS only looks like Samus. as Rhyme has said many times, all of it's moves are different from Samus's. if you've played MP2, you would know this.

 

[shadenexus18]

All in favor of what T-Major just said say I (Shade says I & some others as well). Ok then, all oppose say nay (all you hear is crickets). Then it's agreed. Case in point, well put bro.

 

[Konuk]

Dark Samus Can have have her Dark gun that stuns for a while. Up b would use Dark Boost
and shoot the ground andthe air with a powerful blast. Down b would be like Dark Tackle * like super run in metroid fusion but while flying*> B would be like Dark Sourge 5 hits and Explode losing 10%.....thats just a thought

 

[Sensai]

Rhyme, you didn't validate what he had said. And sorry, I usually have too much going on at once to focus, so I end up not explaining myself very well, as is the case with this.

I was saying that Melee had less time then 64 did to be made, therefore, had less time to focus on each character. In 64, they had a bunch of time to focus on less characters, thus every character got a little time of focus. In Melee, they had the non-clones done, and then were like 'Oh ****! We need more people!' so added in clones.

Did that make it any better? Maybe I'm just out of it. I need sleep.

 

[Konuk]

lol is ryme even on? yea i could see ur point but i think he saying there's nothing similar to Samus and Dark samus in fight except blasters...

 

[MiraiGen]

See, the problem is Dark Samus - unlike Wario and Luigi - has only had one game she's popped up in. That doesn't leave for very much material.

Makes for tricky character creation.

 

[Rhyme]

See, the problem is Dark Samus - unlike Wario and Luigi - has only had one game she's popped up in. That doesn't leave for very much material.

Makes for tricky character creation.

It makes things tricky, until you realize that the developers already know 90% of what Dark Samus will do in MP3 and we don't. With two games, and plenty of time for creativity, I don't see a big problem.

 

[Sensai]

^^^

On top of that, MP3 is almost BOUND to hit before Smash is, so then we'll actually know everything, also.

The big problem, as you put it, is that while they DO have unlimited time to be creative, they also have other characters. While this is a weak argument normally, the fact is that Samus and Dark Samus would very easily be clones, or near clones at best.

Sure. Any person here who's played MP2 could easily come up with a completely different moveset for her. While I'm not saying these guys haven't played MP2, I AM saying that they might not take the time dedicated to making a new moveset if they could just as easily (and maybe even more effectively) just tweak Samus.

Thus, I choose Ridley so as to create another character completely, with no fear that he will end up as a clone.

 

[OysterMeister]

See, the problem is Dark Samus - unlike Wario and Luigi - has only had one game she's popped up in. That doesn't leave for very much material.

Makes for tricky character creation.

Sorry, but this is dead wrong. Dark Samus is the focus of Metroid Prime 3 (she's in the trailer), as well as a recurring miniboss in Prime 2. And she appears in the secret ending for prime 1. Also, considering that Dark Samus IS the re-encarnation of metroid prime (with some of samus' DNA from the phazon suit), you could go so far as to say that the trilogy is also NAMED after Dark Samus.

Personaly, I love Dark Samus. And I don't care if she gets in as a unique character or as a clone. As long as she's there, I'll be happy.

 

[shadenexus18]

Ohhhhh, a noob gave y'all da full Raisin Bran two scoops! I agree with him son!

 

[MiraiGen]

Sorry, but this is dead wrong. Dark Samus is the focus of Metroid Prime 3 (she's in the trailer), as well as a recurring miniboss in Prime 2. And she appears in the secret ending for prime 1. Also, considering that Dark Samus IS the re-encarnation of metroid prime (with some of samus' DNA from the phazon suit), you could go so far as to say that the trilogy is also NAMED after Dark Samus.

Personaly, I love Dark Samus. And I don't care if she gets in as a unique character or as a clone. As long as she's there, I'll be happy.

Okay, I get what you're saying, but she really has only appeared in one game, MP2. Metroid Prime 3 is still in development, and I've got a good inkling that Sakurai doesn't get access to Retro Studios just because he's thinking about a character appearing, and he wants some info on her.

On that note, Metroid Prime and Dark Samus are completely different. Metroid Prime is a phazon-beefed progenitor of the Metroid race, meanwhile Dark Samus is an entity of pure Phazon that lost most of it's Metroid-based capabilities by reverting to a base form and inhabiting the Phazon Suit. Read the wiki if you don't believe me.

Okay, in short - you're right, she does have Metroid Prime 3 going for her, but she's still a minor character in the grand scheme of Metroid, and she still only has two games for her name. That really doesn't leave much to work with.

I'm iffy on the whole Dark Samus issue. On one hand I'd love for her to be in, because she'd be interesting to play. On the other hand, I want Ridley in more than anyone else, and I doubt they'd beef up the cast of characters that much.

 

[Rhyme]

On that note, Metroid Prime and Dark Samus are completely different. Metroid Prime is a phazon-beefed progenitor of the Metroid race, meanwhile Dark Samus is an entity of pure Phazon that lost most of it's Metroid-based capabilities by reverting to a base form and inhabiting the Phazon Suit. Read the wiki if you don't believe me.

I agree with your argument, Dark Samus is just a more realistic and human form of Metroid Prime. But, it is Metroid Prime, not just the same character. I would leave Wiki out of your argument, after all anyone can edit those pages and it can be biased with opinion.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Definitely Ridley, and maybe the most popular Hunter. Maybe someone from Metroid Prime 3 could show up - Aren't there supposed to be several other Bounty Hunters in that?

Thing about Dark Samus is, it could end up being close to a clone. What's so different about Dark Samus?

 

[Sensai]

Oyster, good post.

That's about it. Nothing else to say.

[Edit:]

I lied.

I don't think it's hard for Sakurai to simply ask Retro Studios about ideas for Dark Samus, is it?

 

[MiraiGen]

I agree with your argument, Dark Samus is just a more realistic and human form of Metroid Prime. But, it is Metroid Prime, not just the same character. I would leave Wiki out of your argument, after all anyone can edit those pages and it can be biased with opinion.

Well it can be edited by anyone, but if you know enough about Dark Samus, you know that the wiki so far is correct. It's hard to get opinion in on something that's already happened and is complete fact.

I think that for the purposes of Metroid, however, Dark Samus and Metroid Prime are different entities. Unless Dark Samus' Super Smash is her transforming into the protoplasm of Metroid Prime and sending Phazon Energy all around.

...That would be cool as all hell!

 

[Inferno_blaze]

Ridley ftw, Space dragon of awesomeness, I don't care if Dark Samus is in as long as Ridley's in first, we need the primary Metroid villain sure you could say Dark samus is her rival but Ridley's always rivalled samus, the space pirates keep recreating him - using the same brain- because he's an excellent leader and fighter) I'd still like dark samus to be in (if they don't have time then make her a clone) plus I didn't enjoy MP2 nearly as much as MP (lamer weapons, lame world, apparently "all new" creatures that were copies -the lightning one is the same as the ice one from MP- and no ridley!)