Samus's Rivals...Who gets the SSBB spot?

[Rhyme]

Now you're just confusing me. Bowser is my point because he was shrunk down to make him manageable for Melee, countering the very fact that some people say Ridley is too big. For example...

I don't just ignore parts of an argument that aren't convienent for me, I try to include everything. I probably just missed something. Either way, I never said that they couldn't shrink Ridley, just that he would have to be one of the larger ones in the group.

And here you concede his point which was one of my points only a few minutes ago. I'm only arguing that Ridley can be shrunk down to make him more manageable, and completely deserves the spot.

When did I completely shut down your point again? This is what I said, "There is no proof Bowser will be in Brawl, don't use him as your reason. He's Mario's rival, well so was DK. In all fairness, DK came first and is way more popular. Wario even had move animations that Bowser had in the trailer. His apperance isn't garunteed. Plus, that idea is still refuted by my last argument, that Nintendo is favoring middle of the road fighters over the extremes." And that isn't a reasonable response to your argument?

Until you start paying attention to what I'm saying and actually responding to it instead of arguing with some imaginary person, I'm done with you.

Excuse me? Perhaps you should speak more clearly. It's not like I think these are computer programs or something, I know your a person.


Here is your gratification, MiraiGen. I went back to page 3 and re-read all of my posts and yours in chronological order. I believe what you are refering to is this post,

Bowser.

For the love of GOD, people, just look at Bowser!

You don't need to be gargantuan to be terrifyingly huge. Ridley would be perfect, because he can be altered constantly.

Just look at original NES Ridley. Sure, he's fugly, but he's the same size as samus.

So you are saying that a character doesn't need to be huge to still be terrifying? Well I never said he had to be, he should be bigger, however. I thought that it would be more suitable to make him a huge boss character rather than one of the larger fighters. I wasn't even sure this post was in argument with mine, so I may have neglected to address it fully. However, I did say that Bowser can't be your reason for Ridley needing to be in the game because he himself might not be in the game. The logic of including him worked at one time, but maybe now it won't work.

 

[HiddenTiger]

Hardly miniscule if you consider the fact that no one plays both Mario and Luigi competitively. They are in fact so different that no one plays both of them well. When you look at Luigi compared to Mario, these are the only attacks where the two share knockback and direction: Dthrow, Fthrow, tap A but not A,A,A, Bair. What is that I count...4 moves?!? Hardly a clone. They have similar animations because it is more cost efficient to do so, they don't need to have similar animations. To me, your argument of similar build equals similar character is like saying that because Pikachu and Wolf Link would both be quadripedal, that you can't have them both in the game because they would be clones of eachother. Sure they don't have to be, but you would say they would have to be, assuming you still support your previous argument.

*smashes face on desk* Okay, first of all, this has absolutely nothing to do with Dark Samus. And second of all, you are unfairly over generalizing my statements. Pikachu and Wolf Link may both be quadrupeds, but that's where the similarities end. By physical similarities, I mean characters that look very similar to each other, not ones that have one single physical trait in common. Example:

Mario and Luigi: Bipedal, male humanoids with large, disproportionate heads, identically gloved hands, near mirror proportions other than height.

Falcon and Ganon: Tall, bipedal humanoid males, muscular frame, roughly same height and physical build.

Pikachu and Pichu: quadrupedal rodents with spiky tails, large ears, and chubby physiques.

Samus and Dark Samus: Do I even really need to go there?

Well maybe it's not the best argument, but it tears me up inside when people use a character's name to justify their dislike for a character. The character's name doesn't automatically decide how the character must perform. Sure Dark Samus has the same build, it would be illogical if she didn't seing how she came from Samus. But have you ever played Metroid Prime 2? I guess not because then we wouldn't be having this argument now would we? Dark Samus uses a total of 2 moves that Samus uses throughout the entire game, so how does that make them similar? If Shiek and Zelda can be the same character and yet be counted as 2 completely seperate fighters and not be clones, than so can DS and Samus. And quite literally, all Zelda does is change her costume...at least DS doesn't change back and forth between forms, she was mutated.

Again, and again and again and again as it seems, SOURCE GAMES DO NOT MATTER IN THE SLIGHTEST WHEN IT COMES TO DETERMINING SMASH BROS. MOVESETS AND ATTACKS. The fact that Dark Samus looks EXACTLY LIKE SAMUS PAINTED DARK COLORS means that it would end up having the exact same moves and attacks, except it would have those tiny differences in stats that separate one spinning backwards throw from another that you love so much (and this is the important part) REGARDLESS OF WHAT ATTACKS IT COULD DO IN METROID PRIME 2. They would have identical wireframes and polygons, so giving it all of Samus' moves would be, in your own words no less, "more cost efficient."

 

[gravsamus4747]

Personally, as a Samus user in SSBM i would be thrilled to have a dark samus. It would be like the copy characters from SSBM (Roy, Ganadorf, Falco) but have its own little nuances that make it its own character, my vision of Dark Samus is like if Samus and Mewtwo had a baby, a dark eneity that floats around and uses dark energy to attack. And another thing, Ridley, not gonna happen, he's just too awkward of a character. think about it, every character in the history of Smsash Bros. Has had some sort of humanshape, (even bowser), and after fighting him in Prime it doesnt look like he can walk veyr well, so hows he gonna get around? and what would be his basic A moves? Oh and what about an Ing? Its not humanshape but it could walk and move and attack and be like Zelda/ Sheik with transform and go all gooey shape
Hierachy of possiblilty:
Dark samus
This Rundus guy from corruption
Anyone of the Hunters
Ing Ridley

 

[Sensai]

Nice first post, and welcome to the boards Gravsamus.

To everyone else: wow. This is an incredibly high profile thread. There aren't any flaming wars going on. Good job, keep up the good work. It's nice to see people actually thinking on forums (I know, it's a crazy idea).

I haven't read through everything, so I figure I'll just jump in here:

SOURCE GAMES DO NOT MATTER IN THE SLIGHTEST WHEN IT COMES TO DETERMINING SMASH BROS. MOVESETS AND ATTACKS.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the games where the people originate or not, but if you are...I would be willing to disagree with you. Not completely, but to say that they don't matter 'in the slightest' would be a very wrong assumption. Sure, some characters (Falcon comes to mind) don't derive things from their games, but some characters (Samus being the best example, ironically) do. No, not completely, but at least to some extent.

I'm against Dark Samus being in for fear of her being a clone or being very similar to her counter-part (something like Falco and Fox).

Ridley, I'm all for. Definitely. Space Pirates? Sure, not as much, but ok.

Metroid? Yes. Hell yes, in fact. Make it happen and I'll be surprised as ****, but I'm all for it.

 

[T-major]

Personally, as a Samus user in SSBM i would be thrilled to have a dark samus. It would be like the copy characters from SSBM (Roy, Ganadorf, Falco) but have its own little nuances that make it its own character, my vision of Dark Samus is like if Samus and Mewtwo had a baby, a dark eneity that floats around and uses dark energy to attack. And another thing, Ridley, not gonna happen, he's just too awkward of a character. think about it, every character in the history of Smsash Bros. Has had some sort of humanshape, (even bowser), and after fighting him in Prime it doesnt look like he can walk veyr well, so hows he gonna get around? and what would be his basic A moves? Oh and what about an Ing? Its not humanshape but it could walk and move and attack and be like Zelda/ Sheik with transform and go all gooey shape
Hierachy of possiblilty:
Dark samus
This Rundus guy from corruption
Anyone of the Hunters
Ing Ridley

this post made me fall out of my chair! not only does this guy wan't DS to be a clone (which is just stupid), but he aculaly thinks that an ING has more of a chance the Ridley (which is just F***ing hilarious!). good one my friend!

also, pretty much anybody who has even seen a picture of Ridley could give you a list or two of A moves.

 

[shadenexus18]

Umm...Does anyone have a tight moveset for DS? I would love to see a creative one though if ya know what I'm sayin.

 

[MiraiGen]

I don't just ignore parts of an argument that aren't convienent for me, I try to include everything. I probably just missed something. Either way, I never said that they couldn't shrink Ridley, just that he would have to be one of the larger ones in the group.

I wasn't arguing with you. You just started refuting my points while bringing in your own baggage without even reading it.

And that isn't a reasonable response to your argument?

And once again, I remind you; Bowser was a point because his apperance in Melee (and subsequent shrinking) is a perfect comparison to make when people say that Ridley would be too big to be in Melee. No, it's not a reasonable response to my arguement, because my arguement had nothing to do with Bowser in Brawl. Between Mario 64 and Melee, he was shrunk. I'm sure that between Metroid Prime 3 and Smash Brawl, they can shrink him.

I probably just missed something.

I wasn't even sure this post was in argument with mine, so I may have neglected to address it fully.

At least you figured out the problem.

So you are saying that a character doesn't need to be huge to still be terrifying? Well I never said he had to be, he should be bigger, however.

See, that's just it. You were so quick to refute me, when you looked back on what I had said a second time, you realize that it's completely different from what you were talking about. Bowser still manages to pull off the "Big Bad Stomping Machine" effect without being bosslike, and he's even got Giga Bowser. They can do the same with Ridley.

However, I did say that Bowser can't be your reason for Ridley needing to be in the game because he himself might not be in the game. The logic of including him worked at one time, but maybe now it won't work.

Okay, we'll chalk it up to a misunderstanding. Bowser's appearance in Brawl wasn't even on my mind when I put up my post, and you were first to debunk it's logic, even though what I was talking about and what you were talking about were completely different.

Moving on.

Thank you. I've tried to get that point across on several occasions, but unfortunately I lack your eloquence.
But yeah, DS is not a very original character, and there are much better candidates from the Metroid universe, IMO.

Totally seconded. This game is all about the big old Comic Book Versus Competitions, but for video games.

"Mario would kick Link's ***."
"Nuh uh!"
"Well let's find out!"

 

[HiddenTiger]

I'm not sure if you're referring to the games where the people originate or not, but if you are...I would be willing to disagree with you. Not completely, but to say that they don't matter 'in the slightest' would be a very wrong assumption. Sure, some characters (Falcon comes to mind) don't derive things from their games, but some characters (Samus being the best example, ironically) do. No, not completely, but at least to some extent.

You're right. Maybe I over-simplified my point. What I'm trying to get at here is that there have always been characters who are clones, and there have always been characters who could very easily have completely separate and unique movesets who didn't, and ended up as complete clones. Falco and Ganon are great examples. Neither of them were put in in a hurry, or rushed. They were both simply added, and then clonified. I expect nothing less than this pattern to show up once again in the series third iteration. And the fact of the matter is, no matter what DS could do in it's games, no matter how many movesets fans want to make, at the end of the day Dark Samus is still exactly the same as Samus is, physically, and the first logical thing Sakurai or anyone on his team would probably think is "Hey, we could give her all of Samus' moves and get a really easy character without taking too much time."

 

[Sensai]

^^^

/signed

Although I think that Ganon was rushed, actually.

I'm not sure where I saw that, but I'm fairly sure it's true. That's why he has a sword in some of his animations, but he acts like Falcon; they intended for him to be there, but then didn't have enough time to finish him. So someone pointed out that he and Falcon have very similar bodies and could be clones (which is what would happen with Dark Samus).

 

[MiraiGen]

See, though it could, I don't see it happening.

We've only got two games to base our "cloning theory" off of, and I don't think they're planning on keeping clones as we know them in Brawl. But that's all speculation anyway.

 

[GodzillaMan]

Umm...Does anyone have a tight moveset for DS? I would love to see a creative one though if ya know what I'm sayin.

REPOSTED! (Moveset made by me.)
B-Moves

B; Phazon shot: Same as Samus's (Only cloned move.)

B<> : Blitz Sphere: DS will turn in to morph ball form and charge forward. If you have gotten to the part where you fight Dark Samus for the second time in the Aerie, you know what this is.

Up-B: Phazon Ball: (Taken from final battle with DS.) Surrounds itself with a ball of Phazon and floats upwards.

Down-B: Phazonic Ground: DS will shoot a Phazon shot at the ground and a patch of Phazon will cover the ground. Anyone who walks on it will take damage depending on how long they stay there. Only one Phazon patch can be laid down at a time. If a second patch is laid the first will blow up with the force of the Peach Bomber attack. Cannot be used in the air.

A Attacks

A: A normal punch with arm-cannonless arm.
A,A: Two punches with arm-cannonless arm.
A,A,A: Two punches and then an arm cannon sideswipe.

Running-A: Similar to Fox and Falcos' except DS travels a farther distance and hits with dark energy.

F-Tilt: Downward Arm Cannon swipe.

U-tilt: Quick over head Arm Cannon swipe

D-tilt: Forward leg sweep. Good for edgeguarding.

Forward Smash: Side swipe with both arms. Hits with dark energy.

Up Smash: Will headbutt upwards with helmet.

Down Smash: Will swing arm cannon around self in a complete circle.

Air Attacks

Normal A: A spin hitting with arm cannon.

Forward A: Upward punch with arm-cannonless

Back A: Will turn opposite way and kick.

Up A: A flip kick

Down A: Drill Kick. Possible meteor smash if hit with tips of feet.

Throws

Grab: DS will use the lightning from the cutscenes when it is absorbing phazon to hold them.

A: Shocks the held opponent.

Forward Throw: Will use the lightning to pull them close then will use phazon beam to shoot them away.

Back Throw: Will use lightning to throw it at the ground behind them.

Up Throw: Wil throw opponent up into the air and smack them with arm cannon.

Down Throw: Will throw at the ground and then use phazonic ground on them. The character this attack is used on will take steady damage for the next couple of seconds.

Super Move: Will turn into skeletal Dark Samus from the final battle with DS. All Attacks deal double damage.

Taunt: Dark Samus will face the screen and all of the blue phazonic parts will glow.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I want DS, but Ridley should come first, he deserves it.
Fight on, you purple space dragon! Smash your way into SSBB.

 

[T-major]

good move set. but the Phazon shot should work like a shot gun of sorts. you chage it up, and then fire it to shoot out a spred shot of Phazon in front of you. it only goes half as far as Samus's charge shot, but it's has less firing lag, and covers a larger virtical area, making it harder for people to jump over.

 

[shadenexus18]

Nice goin GodzillaMan! I saw nothin wrong wit that pimpin moveset. Oh yeah, how bout calling that nameless move Blitz Sphere. How's dat?

 

[GodzillaMan]

Blitz Sphere....... I like it! Thanks!

 

[Rhyme]

You know what, I think I realize the problem. I was taking this whole disagreement far to literally and personally. I can't argue this point anymore because I am too closed minded about the Ridley vs Dark Samus issue. I'll just stick to my opinions, stop pressing them on the people in this thread for a long while, and try to avoid confusing other people.

I'll just continue to observe quietly.

 

[shadenexus18]

No problem GodzillaMan. Well anyway, should DS &/or Ridley get their own very stage on Brawl? What would it look like son?

 

[HiddenTiger]

I'm not sure where I saw that, but I'm fairly sure it's true. That's why he has a sword in some of his animations, but he acts like Falcon; they intended for him to be there, but then didn't have enough time to finish him. So someone pointed out that he and Falcon have very similar bodies and could be clones (which is what would happen with Dark Samus).

Yes, I understand that that's what happened to Ganon, but what I was getting at was that Ganon was not thrown in at the last minute, like some other clone characters.

 

[Lord_Deathborne]

Seeing how this has more or less become a Dark Samus discussion (there already exists a thread dedicated to that character BTW), I think I'll go ahead and throw in some weight behind the Hunters, Weavel being my personal pick out of that bunch - although Ridley's still my #1 choice for Samus' rivals in SSBB.

 

[shadenexus18]

Yeah, he's my pick for da Bounty Hunters as well son!

 

[GodzillaMan]

I personally liked Spire the best out of them, but I feel the most likely is Sylux or Rundus.

 

[HiddenTiger]

Seeing how this has more or less become a Dark Samus discussion (there already exists a thread dedicated to that character BTW), I think I'll go ahead and throw in some weight behind the Hunters, Weavel being my personal pick out of that bunch - although Ridley's still my #1 choice for Samus' rivals in SSBB.

Yes, let's stop talking about Dark Samus.

Personally, my number 1 pick for a Metroid baddie is Ridley. I don't feel the need to explain nor defend my decision, as anything I could have said has been said before quite clearly. I suppose one of the Hunters may be a nice choice, even though I didn't care for MP:H. Also, I can't shake the feeling that I've read somewhere that they were hoping that one of the Hunters became popular enough so that they could make a spin-off game. I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is, then that one would probably end up in Brawl if any of them did.

 

[shadenexus18]

Just as long as it's a revamped version of Ridley like Meta Ridley (Metroid Prime). He wasn't that difficult to defeat, but his design was straight of da chain son!

 

[Sensai]

^^^

No no no no. It needs to be classic Ridley, definitely. Without a doubt.

 

[shadenexus18]

Well, maybe they can have him as an extra costume & da original O.G. How's that son?

 

[T-major]

Well, maybe they can have him as an extra costume & da original O.G. How's that son?

that might be able to work... but what does "da original O.G." mean?

 

[LemonManX]

Meta Ridley could be like Giga Bowser.

I wouldn't mind having Meta Ridley as an alternate costume for Ridley though, honestly as long as Ridley appears in his classic form then I'll be happy.

One of the hunters might appear, but will there be more hunters in Metroid Prime 3? Maybe one of them could appear.

 

[Oasis_S]

Ridley. It's funny how people used to think he was too big. I don't remember a law that stated Bowser must be the biggest playable character in Smash. In my mind though, the only thing working against him is how to balance him out. Afterall, he seems heavy, strong, and fast. I suppose there are ways to balance that but, I don't feel like thinking and typing them.

There seemed to be an arguement a few pages back about whether Ridley or Dark Samus should be in Brawl and, I don't see why they both couldn't be. They both represent important parts of the Metroid franchise.

 

[Sensai]

The whole thing about costumes: that's actually not a bad idea at all, shadenexus. Props, good sir.

And...that's fine, dad?

[Edit:]

Oasis, they tried to 'balance' Mewtwo also...look what happened to him.

 

[6th Sense]

Dark Samus and Ridley would make cool characters!! we need faster villians

 

[Oasis_S]

Oasis, they tried to 'balance' Mewtwo also...look what happened to him.

I knew someone was gonna say something about Mewtwo...but hey, at least Mewtwo isn't broken. I want to see Ridley being used to win tournaments because the person who used him knew how to use him welll; not because Ridley is better than every other character.

 

[Aaron_Sketch]

I think Noxus would be best for Smash bros, because he has all of the moves that any regular smash bros. person would need. (His up+b could be he turns into his alt-form, ect.)
He's the only person who could really have the moves to survive in the world of Smash bros... And though Weavel's detaching from himself is pretty awesome, I don't think it would work in Brawl. But still, for all we know, all of the hunters could be in Brawl. Unlikely, yes, but not impossible.

Ridley could be balanced... Just make him an HP-battle-only character. ;P

 

[shadenexus18]

I think all of Samus's Rival's deserve a spot in Brawl. However, I do not want the Dark Samus spinoff...the SA-X. She or "it" does not deserve to mix it up.

 

[Sensai]

I knew someone was gonna say something about Mewtwo...but hey, at least Mewtwo isn't broken. I want to see Ridley being used to win tournaments because the person who used him knew how to use him welll; not because Ridley is better than every other character.

It all comes back to Mewtwo, always.

And jeah, I want this thing called 'skill' to matter, too. That's why I dropped Fox (my original main from Smash64) when I found competitive Smash. Playing Ganon now.

 

[shadenexus18]

You've dropped Fox for Ganon? Mad props to ya!

 

[dotdotdot!]

I think all of Samus's Rival's deserve a spot in Brawl. However, I do not want the Dark Samus spinoff...the SA-X. She or "it" does not deserve to mix it up.

SA-X came first. If anything, Dark Samus is the SA-X spinoff.

 

[shadenexus18]

For real? If that's true then you've done ya homework kid. Mad props to ya! Still, no SA-X! Period son!

 

[MiraiGen]

Yeah but SA-X reminds everyone of Metroid Fusion, which is probably better left alone.

 

[Sensai]

Hey hey hey...I liked that Metroid game.

And yes, Shade, I dropped Fox for Ganon. Too many Fox players going around, ya dig?

 

[dotdotdot!]

I agree with Sensai. Fusion is a pretty good Metroid. Maybe not on the same level as the SNES one or Zero Mission, but it's still a good entry. it's the only Metroid game in which we get to hear what Samus has to say without her becoming annoying, and that nets points in my book.

Plus it's a breath of fresh air for those of us who aren't really fans of the First-person viewpoint.

 

[XsolidXsnakeX]

dark samus or evan a metroid but that would be kinda wierd